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well i got a cleric and a fighter in my group and the cleric got str and travel domains. now he decided to go for the tripping machine(the cleric) and with his enlarged self and hop he can port into a group of mooks and if any of them more he gets AOO all over the place. Why did u make the hop a swift action? why not a move or std? he ports in with the fighter sometimes and still has their full actions, taken out my encounters even before the get to do anything. any one else have this problem??
i can tailer my encounters to try to stop this but i shouldnt have to.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I read the Travel Domain as he can Dimension Hop once per day for 10 per Cleric level. It seems to me that he might be able to derail one encounter but not all of them unless you are essentially running only one per day of game world time.
What level is the Cleric? I can see there might be a problem if he is 5th or 6th level that would mean he can travel 50 or 60 feet at a time. Try spreading out the monsters. Have one of them escape and spread the word about what he can do.
i can tailer my encounters to try to stop this but i shouldnt have to.
Two points. First, your players have abilities so that they can use them, regardless of if those abilities are spells, axes, or tripping feats. You should try to keep in mind that players being able to do neat things that helps them is GOOD. If your cleric player has found a tactic that he/she enjoys, that's a Good Thing.
Second - as an extension of the first point - if something is mildly overpowered, the best thing to do is send a warning, in-game. If the cleric does this encounter after encounter, you could simply drop a set of bad guys who have ranks in Tumble/Acrobatics. Let the bad guys tumble up to the cleric, set up a flank, and sneak-attack him. Badly. Also, there's a feat in Complete Warrior called Close-Quarters Combat. You could adapt that very gently to work for tripping instead of grappling. What that would do is give the bad guys an AoO against your cleric when he tries to trip them... even if he's got Improved Trip and doesn't normally provoke AoO.
See, what you want to do is make it clear to the cleric's player that his teleportation tactic is a good one, and a fun one, but it isn't a Win Button. It has flaws, and he needs to be careful about how and when he uses it, because it's a dangerous tactic. You don't want to make him stop doing it. You want him to wonder, each and every time he uses it, if it's a good idea, or a bad idea. Risk. So make it dangerous a few times. There are LOTS of ways to do this. Someone's got a big monster with Improved Grab and Swallow Whole that they've "tamed" and fed a potion of invisibility. Surprise!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Perhaps I am mistaken, but I read the Travel Domain as he can Dimension Hop once per day for 10 per Cleric level.It's not a once per day. I haven't read them all, but all of the 1st level domain, school, or bloodline powers that I've seen have no limitation of use per day.
Caster
Level Ability1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10
feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This
teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments
and such movement does not provoke attacks of
opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures
with you, but you must expend an equal amount of
distance for each creature brought with you.
1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10 feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you.
This means that a 6th level cleric with Travel domain can "hop" up to a total of 60 feet per day, in 5 foot increments. If he takes the fighter with him, it costs double for each hop.
So, encounter 1, he hops 20 feet with a fighter. It has cost him 40 feet of his daily 60 foot total.
YMMV, but that is my take.
-- david
Papa.DRB
You might be right. I think the explanation could be a little clearer than it is. Hopefully, someone from Paizo will see this thread and take this idea to heart for the final print.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10 feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you.This means that a 6th level cleric with Travel domain can "hop" up to a total of 60 feet per day, in 5 foot increments. If he takes the fighter with him, it costs double for each hop.
So, encounter 1, he hops 20 feet with a fighter. It has cost him 40 feet of his daily 60 foot total.
YMMV, but that is my take.
-- david
Papa.DRB
That's how I understand it. It doesn't seem excessively overpowered but it should probably be a move action.
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I have temporarily banned this ability, as our cleric took the Travel domain and it was simply a plot-buster power. Locked doors, prison cells, it completely played havoc on the adventure I was running, which assumes that first through third level characters won't have access to at will teleportation.
When the cleric died, the player -- who is not a forum reader -- started to make a new cleric and immediately said he was taking the Travel domain again. That to me is a bad sign. He immediately recognized that the Travel domains ability is better than any other domain ability.
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I have temporarily banned this ability, as our cleric took the Travel domain and it was simply a plot-buster power. Locked doors, prison cells, it completely played havoc on the adventure I was running, which assumes that first through third level characters won't have access to at will teleportation.
When the cleric died, the player -- who is not a forum reader -- started to make a new cleric and immediately said he was taking the Travel domain again. That to me is a bad sign. He immediately recognized that the Travel domains ability is better than any other domain ability.
yea he been doing that as well, last game he used it but tried to hop into a sq with an object so he was shot off away. I think it needs to be changed to a move or std(the conjure gets it too but at 8th lvl and its a std so why swift) and to stop walking through walls make it LOS only.
BTW the cleric IS 6th lvl so 60 and it only will get worst.
3.5 has this problem with benign transposition from the Spell Compendium. My wife's wizard used it in conjunction with summoned celestial dogs to bypass some walls of force that I'd intended to be lowered by task completion in the dungeon they were in. It bagged them a good treasure earlier than they were supposed to have it but I adjusted.
That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know.
--Gurubabaramalamaswami
3.5 has this problem with benign transposition from the Spell Compendium. My wife's wizard used it in conjunction with summoned celestial dogs to bypass some walls of force that I'd intended to be lowered by task completion in the dungeon they were in. It bagged them a good treasure earlier than they were supposed to have it but I adjusted.
That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know.
When you are talking about existing rules that are broken then sure, that's what good DMs do. We're talking about changing the game system and there is no reason to introduce things that DMs have to work around from the get-go.
The rule looks pretty clearly worded to me, a sixth level caster can teleport 60'/ day and can break that up into as many hops as he wants (6 10' hops or 12 5' hops, etc). If he brings someone along it counts double or triple, etc. This seems like it would be a good 8th level ability but is a bit much for a 1st level power, in particular since it's a swift action.
Overall the travel domain is a pretty powerful domain, we'll have to make sure to bring this up when they start talking about clerics.
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One of my Crimson Throne players chose the Travel domain and used Dimension Hop at first level to transport himself and the Fighter inside a warehouse at night, thereby bypassing a locked door. I wasn't too concerned about this, as it was a party of three players (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger) without a Rogue (pick locks) or Mage (knock spell) etc. They could have broken a window or found some other way in, but the ability kept the game moving and fun. At first level, that exhausted his Dimension hop for the day.
I think the ability should mention what happens should a character attempt to Dimension Hop into a space he can't see (other side of a brick wall) or what happens should the space already be occupied? I looked up the Dimension Door spell, and ruled that Dimension Hop has similar consequences.
I think the spirit of Dimension Hop might be to add some strategic movement/positioning options during combat, and my Crimson Throne player has used Dimenson Hop for this purpose.
Having a world in which low-level characters can Dimension Hop might require some encounters to be written with this in mind - such shackling prisoners with cuffs of Dimensional Anchor.
Maybe adding a line-of-sight restriction to Dimension Hop could help alleviate some of the concerns. Mundane prisons, safes, strongholds etc could then be built without windows to reduce the requirement for Dimensonal Anchors or similar magic protections.
Having only GMed a couple of sessions with a Dimension Hopping 1st-level character, I like the fun it adds to each session, but I am keeping a close eye on it, so I can anticipate problem situations in specific encounters, or should every Cleric suddenly want the Travel Domain.
I think there are a number of assumptions that come with having magic in the world: Fireball, Illusion; even at low levels: Sleep, Charm, Turn Undead can change an encounter. Encounters are written with these in mind. Dimension Hop is a new one, but it needn't be game-breaking, it just needs to be considered along with any other bag-of-tricks players bring to the table.
Since the power says to teleport, read the teleport spell. You have to have viewed the area at least once, so you can not teleport to the other side of a door, unless you had been there before, and then there is a chance of mishap, so your cleric could not have teleported to the other side of the door.
-- david
Papa.DRB
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Since the power says to teleport, read the teleport spell. You have to have viewed the area at least once, so you can not teleport to the other side of a door, unless you had been there before, and then there is a chance of mishap, so your cleric could not have teleported to the other side of the door.
-- david
Papa.DRB
That's a fair call, regarding must have viewed the area at least once. In the case of the warehouse described above, it did have windows, so the Cleric could view the area teleported to. None-the-less, any restrictions such as line-of-sight, or must have viewed the area at least once, should be spelled out in the description a) to eliminate any argument or confusion; and b) to prevent having to look up other rules.
Why not just make the power give the cleric bonus normal movement as a supernatural ability.
For example:
Caster
Level Ability
1st Acceleration (Su): In addition to your normal movement allowance, you can add up to 10 feet per caster level per day to your movement. This movement must be used in 5-foot increments. Using this power counts as a move action that includes your normal movement. During a turn in which you use this power, any bonus movement used does not provoke attacks of opportunity during that movement. For example, as a 3rd level cleric, if you normal movement is 30, you can use this ability as a move-action to move up to 60 feet in the round (once per day) and would not be susceptible to attacks of opportunity during 30' of that movement.
That's a fair call, regarding must have viewed the area at least once. In the case of the warehouse described above, it did have windows, so the Cleric could view the area teleported to. None-the-less, any restrictions such as line-of-sight, or must have viewed the area at least once, should be spelled out in the description a) to eliminate any argument or confusion; and b) to prevent having to look up other rules.
Understand what you are saying, about having to look up rules, but since we just started using the Beta rules, I have spent a lot of time and effort into looking at the relevant rules for all of the players (Bards are complicated!), and have taken notes and let folks know where I see a potential problem.
In this particular case, it is spelled out in the description. The word teleport is specifically used, which means additional rules to look up, but it gets done once and then the player and myself (DM) should know them. And anyway, with the Travel Domain, it is my DM NPC so I looked it all up ahead of time and wrote them down.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Director of Brand Strategy
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I think that making it a standard action and adding LOS both greatly improve the balance. As a standard action, one can't immediately be on top of the enemy AND attacking/tripping, etc. It gives the enemy the chance to react and stick it to a cleric who just pops up there.
I think that making it a standard action and adding LOS both greatly improve the balance. As a standard action, one can't immediately be on top of the enemy AND attacking/tripping, etc. It gives the enemy the chance to react and stick it to a cleric who just pops up there.
Sorry, my vote would be to leave it like it is. LOS, maybe, but standard action, NO! However, YMMV....
-- david
Papa.DRB
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In this particular case, it is spelled out in the description. The word teleport is specifically used ...
You see, to me Dimension in the spell name trumps the word Teleport in the spell description. It never occurred to me to look up the Teleport spell, because this spell seemed to be a specific version of the Dimenson Door spell, the first place I thought to look up.
Dimension Door requires you to visualise the area, OR state the direction. There is no requirement to have viewed the area at least once.
This is precisely why the Domain ability needs to spell it out clearly, to eliminate any argument or confusion, as has just occurred between you and I. Different players/GMs will have different interpretations.
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Why not just make the power give the cleric bonus normal movement as a supernatural ability.
I see what you're trying to do with this, but I feel reducing the ability to supernatural movement reduces it's flavour and appeal.
If the main concern is characters teleporting through walls, why not simply state that Dimension Hop allows a character to teleport in 5-foot increments, you may take other willing creatures with you by expending equal amounts of distance, but this ability does not allow teleporting through solid objects such as walls or into enclosed areas.
Okay, this nerfs the power somewhat, but retains much of it's original use and flavour while keeping it's possible abuse in check.
The only regret I have about taking this approach, is that it prohibits a character who has just entered a room, and wants to teleport back out to the corridor they were in just moments before, line-of-sight and similar restrictions prevent this retreat-to-safety defence.
It still allows a character to teleport across an open pit or chasm, which some might argue bypasses encounter challenges, but a jump across a 10-foot pit is a DC 10 acrobatics check, so this doesn't seem out-of-place.
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That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know.
You know, that's a vaguely insulting implication. I myself have been running D&D games for 20 years, and I like to think I'm pretty good. When you say something like "That's what good DMs do..." you imply anyone who takes issue with this is not a good DM.
I could release a D20 supplement with a new class that gets a new first level ability:
Rule The Game As a swift action you can teleport from your space to any other space in the world. You gain true seeing that is always on. You gain a +500 sacred bonus to AC. All of your attacks are affected by true strike. As a free action you may cause any living creature to die. As a free action you may channel positive energy like a cleric, though you channel 10 x Level in d6 and may use this ability at will.
That is clearly a broken ability that shouldn't be in the game. But..."That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know." right?
I think you guys are miss-reading the power. It’s only a hop. When it says “This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments” it means you can only teleport 5 feet at a time. No 60 foot jumps, just 5 feet. It’s only a hop. Being able to do 60 feet a day just means you can do it 12 times. That’s why it’s a first level power and a swift action, it's like an extra 5 foot step.
reread the power, they can jump a max of 5/lvl in 5 foot incrementsI think you guys are miss-reading the power. It’s only a hop. When it says “This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments” it means you can only teleport 5 feet at a time. No 60 foot jumps, just 5 feet. It’s only a hop. Being able to do 60 feet a day just means you can do it 12 times. That’s why it’s a first level power and a swift action, it's like an extra 5 foot step.
Here's the description:
Caster
Level Ability
1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10 feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you.
The key word here is increments , other dimension/teleport powers do not use this word so why is it here. Since most combat is based arount 5' (5' squares on a battlemat, 5' steps in combat, etc...) it's unnecessary to say that people can't use the power to Hop 8'.
If you travel 60' in 5' increments that means you move 5' 8 times.
It's only a first level power, it has its uses but it's not a super dimension door.
Well, locked doors are not much of a defense against players, even at low levels, so a power that moves someone past them at speed isnt really world destroying.
As to walls of force and that sort of nonsense, well, unless this fellow can move the entire party past them, then that usually means someone or a few people being stuck on the wrong side when trouble starts and that can be very bad.
Personally, i`d approach this from a roleplay side. Anyone with travel as a domain is a prime target for gm plot devices. The local church, or his god can send him on trips away, or encourage him not to stay in the same inn twice etc.
I`m a big fan of priests and cleric types who actually take their domain roles seriously, rather than simply viewing them as a source of useful tools. If i had a travel cleric in my game who made a point to roleplay his travels, or to help travellers or to otherwise really big up his faith, then i'd be much happier with him teleporting about.
Some of the campaign arcs tend to be very much based in one place, or city, ie Korvosa. It's also fair to restrict deity or domain choices based on this, i would say, especially where "travel" is concerned. If a domain doesnt really fit with the campaign feel, then its fair game to disallow such worhsippers, unless the player really triest to make it work in some visible and probably awkward manner (like fixing roads or wagons etc in his spare time).
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The key word here is increments , other dimension/teleport powers do not use this word so why is it here. Since most combat is based arount 5' (5' squares on a battlemat, 5' steps in combat, etc...) it's unnecessary to say that people can't use the power to Hop 8'.
I read it that you must round all uses up to the higher 5'. For example, if you are trying to cross a 16 foot gap, you must use 20' of movement. 20' is a use in 5' increments. I agree that either of us could be correct, and that the power needs clarifying. I agree that it is not overpowered, but would concede that it would be more appropriate as a move action.
I read it that you must round all uses up to the higher 5'. For example, if you are trying to cross a 16 foot gap, you must use 20' of movement. 20' is a use in 5' increments. I agree that either of us could be correct, and that the power needs clarifying. I agree that it is not overpowered, but would concede that it would be more appropriate as a move action.The key word here is increments , other dimension/teleport powers do not use this word so why is it here. Since most combat is based arount 5' (5' squares on a battlemat, 5' steps in combat, etc...) it's unnecessary to say that people can't use the power to Hop 8'.
Now that I think about it, I see that side as well.
I think I just like my version better. Heh.
I think we can agree on the need for clarification.
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Now that I think about it, I see that side as well.
I think I just like my version better. Heh.
I think we can agree on the need for clarification.
Did we just have a civil discussion on an internet forum? My word, the world must be ending.
This discussion has come up a time or two already, and is certain to come up again. The Travel domain can be considered superior when weighed against others, but I don't feel it should be taken completely away.
I'd have to say make it at least a Move action [leaning towards Standard myself] and Line-of-site.
The other issue you may want to consider is whether you want this 1st level ability to be able to by-pass Wall of Force or Force Cage
I would add that it can not be used to by-pass Force effects. I have had the same situation with Anklets of Translocation (MIC 1400gp 2/day teleport 10ft.). Having a cheap, low-level item negate a Force Cage is crazy and possible broken!
The reason I was advocating not making it a teleport ability is for many of the reasons mentioned in this post. If the overall game effect is to give the cleric bonus movement, then why not make it do just that? You're going to end up with many exceptions on stuff the power can't do, which will take up much of the text of the power explanation.
A first level power should not teleport anything.
The key word here is increments , other dimension/teleport powers do not use this word so why is it here. Since most combat is based arount 5' (5' squares on a battlemat, 5' steps in combat, etc...) it's unnecessary to say that people can't use the power to Hop 8'.
If you travel 60' in 5' increments that means you move 5' 8 times.
I find the key word to be "used", as in the total of 60' per day must be used up in amounts that are increments of 5', not simply 5' steps.
Best argument I have for that is that otherwise it would simply say "Dimensional Hop: You may teleport 5' as a swift action. You may do this two times per day per level. Teleporting with other creatures uses up additional uses of this ability."
I could handle an increase to a move action instead of swift. Standard makes it almost useless (much like the 8th level Conjuration ability).
The "abuse" described by the original poster (teleporting *into* the midst of a bunch of opponents) seems fairly limited. It would probably take at least 20' per use, 40' carrying another along. That's 2-3 uses per day at most. As for the specific enlarged-tripping tactic, I hope he recalls that a Large creature only has +1 to combat maneuver checks.
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I don't know if it's wise, but I still like Dimension Hop as a teleport effect - its very cool.
The reason I didn't want to replace it with a movement effect was I thought it lacked flavour - Barbarians and Monks already get bonus movement, not limited by daily uses, so what makes this ability special? At first level it's little better than taking a 5-foot step!
When I think of Dimension Hop, I think of that guy from X-men popping out in a cloud of black dust and popping back in a few feet away. It needs a cool factor!
Then I thought of the Flash - supernatural speed. You can't get an AOO on him, because all you see is a blur of movement, and he's behind you! How cool is that?
It works exactly as veector had described above, you can't walk through walls or across open pits, but otherwise it functions exactly like Dimension Hop and still fits the Travel domain. But you need to sell the idea with flavour text.
Though I'll still be sad to see Dimension Hop nerfed, I half expect it will be.
There is actually a precedent for teleportation effects to require more stringent rules for how they operate than Teleport the spell. For OGL if you look at:
Dimension Slide
Psychoportation (Teleportation)
Level: Psychic warrior 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: You; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: 5You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range to which you have line of sight. You can bring along possessions that amount to as much as a medium load, including living creatures that weigh as much as 20 pounds. Movement caused by the use of dimension slide does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
If you somehow attempt to transfer yourself to a location occupied by a solid body or a location you can’t see the power simply fails to function.
AugmentIf you spend 4 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a move action.
If you want something closer in intent there is another power in Complete Psionics that is first level and is a swift action. It will move a character 10' + 5' per point augmented. It also states that you need line of sight. Amusingly enough the ability is called Dimensional Hop as well.
As side point I'm certain the whole benign transposition and wall of force doesn't work. The reason is when you target a creature you must have an unobstructed line of effect between you and the target. Just because you can see the other creature as the wall is invisible doesn't mean you can target them. You couldn't pull out a bow and shoot that same celestial dog because of the wall, therefore you cannot target said celestial dog and switch places. You got hoodwinked by your wife my friend.
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There is actually a precedent for teleportation effects to require more stringent rules for how they operate than Teleport the spell. For OGL if you look at: Dimension Slide; If you want something closer in intent there is another power in Complete Psionics that is first level and is a swift action. It will move a character 10' + 5' per point augmented. It also states that you need line of sight. Amusingly enough the ability is called Dimensional Hop as well.
Interesting. I'm also interested to learn at what level a character might gain access to an Anklelt of Translocation. I'll have to look these up when I get home.
In Living Greyhawk, I have usually played Monk characters, because I like the way they're able to move around and tumble through a battlefield - I don't like being caught in a place I can't get out of, or being stuck in a place when I could be more useful elsewhere in the melee.
I remember seeing two effects during Living Greyhawk sessions that made me think "hey, that's cool, I'd like to get my hands on that!" One was the Benign(?)/Baleful Transposition spells; the other was the Anklet of Translocation. What level spell is Benign Transposition?
I was hoping I might play a LG session that granted adventure access to the Anklet, and at my last LG convention this year, I finally achieved it! I think I got to use it once, before retiring LG for Pathfinder. I seem to remember using it as a swift dismount action, and still having a move and attack remaining, instead of having to wait for the next round until I could join the melee.
I don't know whether the Anklet allows you to pass through walls? Maybe it didn't. I can't recall even considering the possibility, I just thought it was a great way of getting out of a tight situation on the battlefield. But I'll be looking up these items/spells and comparing them to the Travel domain in terms of utility and power.
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Hmmm, until now, I had only been considering Dimensional Hop from a player's perspective, or from a GM's perspective anticipating his players using it. Papa-DRB mentioned using it as a GM for an NPC. This would create some crazy encounters! I know how much players hate it when they face Monk bad-guys, as they tumble all about them - it's harder to hit, or defend yourself from, moving targets, particularly ones that don't attract AOOs! - Dimensional Hopping cultists would drive them insane! [evil GM grin!]
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All this talk of Monks made me think, hey, why don't Monks get Dimension Hop among their Ki abilities? They gain Abundant Step (acts as Dimension Door) at 12th level - Dimension Hop would seem a natural step along the way to learning Abundant Step. They start gaining Ki points from 4th level, and would have to power Dimension Hop with their Ki points, so with other Ki powers to choose from, not every Monk would be teleporting about, they already do a fine job with tumble, but it does fit the Monk theme. This should cause less concern than a 1st level Travel domain Cleric with the same ability.
Eberron has something similar to this, called Dimensional Leap.
They have it as a standard action.
I agree that it should be clear in the description whether this is similar to Dimension Door or to Teleportation.
Personally, I have no problem with it being a swift action.
Blind leaps thru walls leaves all kinds of nasty and fun things that a DM can do. From enemies being there, to lava/acid/pits/etc..., that will have a player hesitate before blindly "hopping" into the unknown.
There are Dimensional Shackles list in the Beta which will help solve the problem of a "traveler" absconding with the important prisoners.
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Hmmm, until now, I had only been considering Dimensional Hop from a player's perspective, or from a GM's perspective anticipating his players using it. Papa-DRB mentioned using it as a GM for an NPC. This would create some crazy encounters! I know how much players hate it when they face Monk bad-guys, as they tumble all about them - it's harder to hit, or defend yourself from, moving targets, particularly ones that don't attract AOOs! - Dimensional Hopping cultists would drive them insane! [evil GM grin!]
Agreed, anything the players can come up with can be equally used against them. It was fine when only the players used the wraith strike spell, but when they almost wiped facing a party of assassins using it they cried foul. [evil GM grin]
We have since, as a group, agreed to a modified version of the spell. (no longer a swift spell)
This power was way broken when it was the reserve spell conjuration feat from PH2 and it's way broken now.
However, try having the cleric swift teleport his way into six defensive castings of acid fog by mimic sorcerers. Or, better yet, you fill in the blanks, my friend DM.
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Eberron has something similar to this, called Dimensional Leap.
...
Personally, I have no problem with it being a swift action.
I have to disagree. The Blade of Orien Prestige Class upgrades the Dimensional Leap to a Move action which makes the blade PC in my game a pain to control in battle. Every bad guy is outflanked and hit from all sides. She routinely jumps the high AC tank in the group behind the biggest threat and they cut them to ribbons. I have learned to plan this into encounters but it is a powerful ability that she didn't acquire until 9th level. Granting that power to a level one PC is perhaps a bit over the top.
As an aside, the description of the powers for the Blade of Orien indicate that one of the powers allows you to use your Dimensional Leap without provoking an AoO. This would presume that under other circumstances it does provoke an AoO which I would not think to be the case.
The nature of the game and the number of Marked Orien characters in play have made us rewrite the rules of Dimension Door, Dimensional Leap, Teleport, and all the other teleportation, gate & dimensional magics as well as detail how extra-dimensional spaces work just to figure out how all this stuff interacts. I think these effects need to be better explained in general in Pathfinder, it has generated 10 typed pages of rules in our house rules document under 3.5.
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Caster
Level Ability
1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10 feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A 6th lvl cleric can Hop a total of 60' per day. That could be 1 60ft Hop, 2 30ft Hops, 3 20ft Hops... or 12 5' Hops
You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you.
The same 6th lvl cleric can Hop a maximum with 1 PC = 30ft, 2 PCs = 20ft, with 3 15ft. The cleric could also Hop with 1 PC just 15ft and still have 30ft he could Hop by himself.
any one else have this problem??
i can tailer my encounters to try to stop this but i shouldnt have to.
Rizzen, we were all rookie GMs at one point or another, but if you get stomped so easily by a level-1 ability then it's a clear sign you need to do your homework and read carefully all resources at the enemy's disposal during an encounter (from combat circumstances in the environment to monster combat feats), as well as knowing your players' resources thoroughly. By this I DON'T mean using pre-emptive gaming against them (that's the single WORST habit of a GM), but know your tools.
Alas, what level is your party? If your party is already lvl 6+ then there's nothing wrong with them chopping through minor encounters. They've survived their way to where they are, let them feel a bit super, let them feel they have actually progressed. Your player found creative uses for his abilities? Great! Good ideas and creativity are to be rewarded, not stomped. You can always toss at them a higher level encounter later to get the party back on their toes anyway.
First, your players have abilities so that they can use them, regardless of if those abilities are spells, axes, or tripping feats. You should try to keep in mind that players being able to do neat things that helps them is GOOD. If your cleric player has found a tactic that he/she enjoys, that's a Good Thing.
I fully agree.
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Director of Games
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Hmm, looks like the postmonster ate my early post to this thread.
Anywho...
I am thinking about clarifying this a bit and possibly making some alterations. We might make this a once per day ability, and it might require you to have line of sight to the area. That said, we will not be discussing these rules for a bit.
Just thought I would toss that out there. Hang in there, we will get to these rules eventually.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Hmm, looks like the postmonster ate my early post to this thread.
Anywho...
I am thinking about clarifying this a bit and possibly making some alterations. We might make this a once per day ability, and it might require you to have line of sight to the area. That said, we will not be discussing these rules for a bit.
Just thought I would toss that out there. Hang in there, we will get to these rules eventually.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, are we discussing domain powers during the cleric discussion, or the magic chapter discussion?
That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know.You know, that's a vaguely insulting implication. I myself have been running D&D games for 20 years, and I like to think I'm pretty good. When you say something like "That's what good DMs do..." you imply anyone who takes issue with this is not a good DM.
I could release a D20 supplement with a new class that gets a new first level ability:
Rule The Game As a swift action you can teleport from your space to any other space in the world. You gain true seeing that is always on. You gain a +500 sacred bonus to AC. All of your attacks are affected by true strike. As a free action you may cause any living creature to die. As a free action you may channel positive energy like a cleric, though you channel 10 x Level in d6 and may use this ability at will.That is clearly a broken ability that shouldn't be in the game. But..."That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know." right?
You are choosing to be insulted. I certainly didn't imply that anyone here is a bad DM. If anything I was using an encouraging tone.
This ability is far from broken. A good DM can make it just as fun for himself as for the player. If a deity's clerics have access to this domain and it is a popular domain for obvious reasons, then enemies are going to anticipate the use of this ability in confrontations with the cleric and his companions. A clever enemy plans ahead and controls the battlefield. What if your bad guy happens to be standing behind some sort of trap? What if he has an invisible bodyguard?
By choosing to be insulted instead of taking the comment as it was meant you are limiting your perspective on the comment.
I am thinking about clarifying this a bit and possibly making some alterations. We might make this a once per day ability, and it might require you to have line of sight to the area. That said, we will not be discussing these rules for a bit.
The ability is clear enough as is, please don't yield to the lowest common denominator, that's the way of 4E, and makes me a sad panda. =(
If you insist on doing it, however, at least do us the favor of removing it altogether and replacing it with a Dimension Door 1/day (a spell even the most obtuse GMs can understand), instead or giving us a nerfed ability.