What will follow will be a series of adventures featuring one PC (a wizard). The following were adhered to:
(1) Only publicly available adventures have and will be used. Reproducibility is key. (If there exists an adventure you'd like me to play through for a party of level 15 or higher, feel free to link it).
(2) The PC and his cohort each received starting cash equal to WBL and were free to spend it however they saw fit.
(3) All material is 3.P Beta or from the SRD unless it explicitly occurs in the adventure.
(4) The PC was built avoiding degenerate rules exploits like arbitrary wealth or chain-binding creatures. Non-degenerate tricks are considered valid - this is high level play after all, and a certain amount of crazy is to be expected.
(5) The player (me) and the DM did not look at any of the modules before creating the character (me) or issuing any rulings about character creation (the DM).
(6) No houserules were used. All rules were interpreted exactly as written to the best of our ability to determine otherwise (#2 is a voluntary decision on my part). When there was a rules issue that came up and the RAW wasn't clear, I will outline the issue.
(7) Similarly, the adventure is taken at face value. For example, time constraints are not imposed unless the adventure specifically calls for them or fails to make sense without them. (I'm avoiding the 15-minute workday because of 2 anyway).
(8) Despite only having one character, the adventures are all (theoretically) designed for parties of characters his level or higher.
(9)Treasure and experience are accrued normally from each adventure. The wizard may use his treasure as he sees fit between adventures. If the wizard should die during an adventure, he begins the next adventure as he began that adventure.
Each adventure will receive its own post. Any outstanding issues or problems encountered will be listed at the top. Following that I will post a commentary (based on discussions between myself and the DM) about the adventure and how well designed we think it was. I will then give a synopsis of how the adventure was run. Finally, any adjustments to the character will be posted at the end of the adventure.
If an adventure was failed I'll discuss alternate strategies or tactics which may have worked, but for obvious reasons re-running the adventure leads to player bias in terms of responses.
Finally, this is the character I'm running:
Erephestos, CN Elf Wizard 15
General:
Spoiler:
Options: Universalist
Starting: Str 7 Dex 15 Con 10 Int 20 Wis 11 Cha 7
Current: Str 7 Dex 21 Con 14 Int 29 Wis 11 Cha 7
Elf: +2 perception/appraise, LLV, +2 vs. enchantment, imm sleep, +2 vs. SR, WP:longbow, shortbow, longsword, rapier
Languages*: Common, Elven, Draconic, Sylvan, Gnome, Goblin, Orc
*speaks all languages because of permanent tongues
Init: +9
Senses: Darkvision, LLV, Perception +5, See Invisible, Detect Magic Auras
BAB/Attack: +7 / +20 Hand of the Apprentice'd Rapier +4 or +12 ranged touch
hp: 110.5 = 85 + 15.5 temp (false life) +10.5 temp (heroes feast)
AC: 21 = 10 + 5 armor + 5 dex + 1 insight
Svs: F +13, R +16, W +15, +2 vs. enchantment
SR: 18
Arcane Bond (Ring of Mystic Prowess)
Cantrips
School Powers: colorspray 8/day, false life* 1/day, major image 1/day, greater invisibility 1/day, teleport 1/day, true seeing 1/day, greater shadow conjuration 1/day
Hand of the Apprentice
Metamagic Mastery (8/day)
SPD: 4/7/6/6/6/6/4/3/2, Save DC 19 + spell level (+2 illusion), CL 16, +24 vs. SR
Spells Typically Prepared**:
0th: read magic, ghost sound, light, prestidigitation
1st: charm person, silent image, unseen servant, grease 3 slots open
2nd: protection from arrows*, web, detect thoughts, command undead, false life, knock
3rd: clairaudience/clairvoyance, greater magic weapon*, slow 3 slots open
4th: ext. magic circle vs. evil, ext. heroism*, evard’s spiked tentacles of forced intrusion, greater invisibility, enervation 1 slot open
5th: cloudkill, wall of force, overland flight*, heightened phantasmal killer 2 slots open
6th: greater dispel magic, undeath to death, flesh to stone 1 slot open
7th: summon monster VII, ethereal jaunt 1 slot open
8th: mind blank*, polymorph any object
*cast at beginning of day
**Generally, spells will be prepped specifically for the day’s adventure or activities as appropriate, but if he’s just traveling this is a fairly standard spell load. For information gathering he focuses on Contact Other Plane, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scry, Greater Scry, and Detect Thoughts (and uses his divine buddies for Scry, Divination, and Augury). For combat-intensive days he’ll tailor his spell load to what he knows. If attacked by forces he is somehow incapable of dealing with he has plenty of evasion and escape options to rely on.
Spellbook
Spoiler:
Cantrips: All
1st: shield, grease, mage armor, unseen servant, charm person, sleep, colorspray, silent image, ray of enfeeblement, expeditious retreat, reduce person
2nd: arcane lock, protection from arrows, glitterdust, web, detect thoughts, see invisible, invisibility, mirror image, blindness/deafness, command undead, false life, knock, ropetrick
3rd: magic circle vs. X, protection from energy, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, tongues, heroism, suggestion, tiny hut, displacement, major image, halt undead, blink, fly, greater magic weapon, secret page, slow, waterbreathing
4th: stoneskin, dimension door, evard's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion, solid fog, scrying, charm monster, wall of ice, greater invisibility, phantasmal killer, bestow curse, enervation, fear, elemental body I
5th: break enchantment, cloudkill, wall of stone, contact other plane, telepathic bond, mind fog, wall of force, persistent image, teleport, overland flight, permanency
6th: anti-magic field, greater dispel magic, globe of invulnerability, summon monster VI, wall of iron, true seeing, contingency, permanent image, programmed illusion, shadow walk, eyebite, undeath to death, disintegrate, flesh to stone, move earth
7th: banishment, summon monster VII, greater teleport, power word: blind, greater scrying, mass hold person, mass invisibility, greater shadow conjuration, simulacrum, control undead, waves of exhaustion, ethereal jaunt, limited wish
8th: mind blank, protection from spells, summon monster VIII, moment of prescience, power word: stun, mass charm monster, greater shout, greater shadow evocation, scintillating pattern, polymorph any object
Expenses:
Spoiler:
Ring of Mystic Prowess (30kgp): +6 intelligence (18kgp), Constitution +4 (12kgp)
Scrolls* (1325 gp): Cloudkill (612.5gp), wall of ice (350gp), waterbreathing (187.5gp), knock (75gp), false life (75gp), invisibility (75gp)
Other Magical Gear* (122.25kgp): Handy Haversack (1kgp), Blessed Book (6.25kgp), Eyes of the Eagle (1.25kgp), Robe of the Archmagi (37.5kgp), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (2.5kgp), Orange Ioun Stone (15kgp), Ring Gate (40kgp), Belt of Dexterity +6 (18kgp), Wand of CLW (750gp)
Additional Spells known (15,750 gp):
(1st, 50gp) reduce person
(2nd, 1000gp) arcane lock, protection from arrows, glitterdust, see invisible, invisibility, blindness/deafness, command undead, knock, ropetrick
(3rd, 1950gp) protection from energy, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, tongues, heroism, suggestion, tiny hut, displacement, major image, halt undead, blink, greater magic weapon, waterbreathing
(4th, 1800gp) stoneskin, dimension door, solid fog, scrying, charm monster, wall of ice, bestow curse, enervation, fear
(5th, 1750gp) break enchantment, wall of stone, contact other plane, telepathic bond, persistent image, overland flight, permanency
(6th, 3300gp) anti-magic field, globe of invulnerability, summon monster VI, wall of iron, true seeing, contingency, programmed image, shadow walk, eyebite, disintegrate, move earth,
(7th, 3150gp) banishment, summon monster VII, greater teleport, power word: blind, greater scrying, mass invisibility, control undead, waves of exhaustion, ethereal jaunt,
(8th, 3200gp) protection from spells, summon monster VIII, moment of prescience, power word stun, mass charm monster, greater shout, scintillating pattern, polymorph any object
Other Expenses (28.5kgp): Simulacrum (self, 7HD) – 3.5kgp, Permanencied Spells: Arcane Sight (7.5k gp), Tongues (7.5k gp), see invisibility (5k gp), Darkvision (5kgp)
Standard Gear (up to 1825 gp): mirror (1k), rapier, spell component pouches, clothes, other typical stuff.
Total: 200kgp
*All items crafted when possible. If I’ve accidentally forgotten a spell or two I need, I can easily afford it with the ‘standard gear’ cash which is far more than adequate. Keep in mind my cohort can supply some of the spells.
His Simulacrum
Spoiler:
Simulacrum – Duplicate of Erephestos (Elf Wizard 7)
Str 7 Dex 15 Con 10 Int 23 Wis 11 Cha 7
Elf: +2 perception/appraise, LLV, +2 vs. enchantment, imm sleep, +2 vs. SR, WP:longbow, shortbow, longsword, rapier
Init: +6
Senses: LLV
hp: 44.5 = 7d6 (21.5) + 12.5 temp (false life) + 10.5 temp (heroes' feast)
BAB/Attack: +3 / +5 ranged touch or +9 Hand of the Apprentice’d rapier
AC: 16 = 10 + 4 armor + 2 Dex
Svs: F +2, R +4, W +5, +2 vs. enchantment
Arcane Bond (Ring)
Cantrips
School Powers: colorspray 8/day, false life* 1/day, major image 1/day,
Hand of the Apprentice
SPD: 4/6/5/3/2, DC 16 + spell level (+1 illusion), +11 vs. SR
Spells Typically Prepared:
0th: detect magic, resistance, mending, prestidigitation
1st: mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, silent image, grease, expeditious retreat, reduce person
2nd: protection from arrows, invisibility x3, see invisible
3rd: magic circle vs. evil, fly, tiny hut
4th: solid fog, enervation
Spellbook
Uses Erephestos’s
Gear (0gp): ‘non-magical’ semi-real equivalents of gear worn by Erephestos, including a rapier
His Cohort:
Valderash, CN Human Cleric 13 of Lamashtu [Chaotic] [Evil]
General:
Spoiler:
Starting: Str 7 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 18 Cha 14
Current: Str 7 Dex 10 Con 20 Int 9 Wis 27 Cha 20
SPD: 4/6/6/6/6/4/3/2, save DC 18+spell level (+2 necromancy), CL13, +15 vs. SR
Typical Spells:
0th: create water, guidance, mending, virtue
1st: bane, doom x3, shield of faith x2
2nd: align weapon, death knell x3, delay poison*+ x2
3rd: bestow curse, deeper darkness, magic circle vs. evil*, magic vestment** x2, protection from elements
4th: death ward x2, dimensional anchor, Ext (rod) freedom of movement*+ x2, greater magic weapon*
5th: commune, slay living, wall of stone, heightened bestow curse
6th: heal, heroes’ feast*, summon monster VI
7th: summon monster VII x2
*cast at start of adventuring day
+cast on Erephestos at start of adventuring day
Gear:
Spoiler:
Weapons and Armor (10.65kgp): Platemail (1500), Animated Lg Shield +1 (9150)
Other Magical Gear (91.25kgp): Handy Haversack (1k), Headband of Mental Prowess (wis/cha) +6 (45k), Cloak of Resistance +5 (12.5k), Belt of Con +6 (18k), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (2.5k), Rod of Extend (5.5k), goggles of night (6k), Wand of CLW (750)
Mundane Gear (up to 8.1kgp): usual stuff.
Total 110/110kgp
Gear is crafted whenever possible
It's worth noting at the outset that solo play has never seemed a high priority for designers in any iteration of the game. You results should be considered in light of this approach, but data from actual play of published modules is never "wrong" or "bad."
For my personal satisfaction, please try and keep track of the following intangible or difficult to measure factors for each session:
If a rule takes more than 30 seconds to reference (wholly or in part, whatever is called for in the game).
Whenever a rule strikes you as particularly "fun" or "a pain," considerably apart from the average, and why.
Frequency and duration of gaming sessions.
Frequency and duration of the in-character "adventuring day" and context.
I understand that any real collection of this data will be a total pain to collect, but it is very important for design and due to it's difficulty you don't really see it come up much in design fora. Any such data will feed my curiosity.
Gah, it just ate my first adventure synopsis. Crap, that's like an hour of typing gone. Well, maybe later.
Oh, there's a small error in the character sheet. He also has Detect Secret Doors in his spellbook.
Toyrobots:
First, while its 'solo' he's taking on adventures theoretically designed for full parties. As he handled adventure 1 trivially, there's clearly something wrong (in this case it might be the adventure). Its also a chance to show just how crazy high level can be even without degenerate nonsense.
If a rule takes more than 30 seconds to reference (wholly or in part, whatever is called for in the game)
Exact text of spells occasionally had to be referenced. I'm reasonably good at this, but there's a lot of spells, and pathfinder has changed some and I had to check them all. Of course, this is typical of casters anyway, and most of this can be handled by good pre-play prep.
Ring Gate involved some discussion about its exact capabilities both during character construction and during play. Suffice it to say that its implied function would be violated if air could freely pass through the ring gate (it would quickly use up its daily mass alotment by just sitting there), and so we determined that only objects which are pushed through the ring gate actually pass through. Among other things, this means that sound does not pass through a ring gate (sound is a wave transmitted through matter). This was a lengthy rules discussion which required both referencing and some recourse to real-world physics. It also meshed with the ring gate description, which never says sound passes through it.
Whenever a rule strikes you as particularly "fun" or "a pain," considerably apart from the average, and why.
I'll try. Admittedly, at least based on the first adventure, a lot of the fun for me was figuring out how to peel the thing apart efficiently, and a lot of the fun for the DM was watching me do it. Actual combats were brief and anti-climactic.
Frequency and duration of gaming sessions.
Hmmm... this is complicated in a solo game because (1) he only has 1 person competing for his time, (2) only one person so no multiple people proposing and discussing ideas, (3) we can handle a lot of things pre-game with conversation rather than formally in session, or possibly via e-mail or other electronic media. Ie, most of the hook for adventure 1 was discussed via IM in this case.
Frequency and duration of the in-character "adventuring day" and context.
It depends on exactly what you mean by 'in-character adventuring day', but i'll definitely make a note of that.
WotC's Nightmare:
Its also to showcase what kinds of tricks you should expect characters to be able to pull at high levels. I'll try to minimize my repetition of particular tactics across adventures, if for no other reason than to keep things interesting.
This should be an excellent playtest. A couple of nits:
(1) Starting at such a high level you are able to equip your character in a manner that otherwise would be difficult to do. It is not as if, when you hit 15th, you can buy 200,000gp worth of items. Nevertheless, it is possible to do as you have done (though I have not checked your math on item costs, more on this below).
(2) Your contingency and simulacrum spells will run you about an additional 6000xp. It pushes you over 15th, but not in an measurable way.
(3)From my knowledge of Paizo and other published modules 15+ and above, the foes are not optimized in this fashion (stats in the range you are talking about aren't seen in Paizo adventures for example, because not every villain is equipped in that fashion). Some of this is because foes are built with treasure tables and NPC WBL not PC WBL guidelines and other times foes do not include this exotic treasure because the module designers do not want funky +6/+4 items to be found in a "standard module", perhaps because many DMs would not support such items in their campaigns. I am not sure how I would handle this if you brought this character to my game. I guess I would need to go rework the module so that the foes had about the same gear load that you did.
(4) I haven't checked your other items, but you should look carefully at that Ring of Mystic Prowess:
(a) The cost for an ability boosting item is bonus squared times 1000gp, so a +6 INT ring should be 36,000.
(b) Adding a +4 CON bonus to this ring requires another 16,000gp plus another 8000gp adder for adding a second ability to a body slot affinity item
These two items bring the market price to 60,000gp. I see you costed it at 30,000gp which means you forged it yourself, but you lack the Forge Ring feat and would need to expend 2400xp to do this. If you performed this same approach on all your items, you have probably made a mistake somewhere or managed to find someone that crafted all of your items at their cost (half market price).
I will look this over in more detail when I can. Let me know what you think about these issues.
This should be an excellent playtest. A couple of nits:
(1) Starting at such a high level you are able to equip your character in a manner that otherwise would be difficult to do. It is not as if, when you hit 15th, you can buy 200,000gp worth of items. Nevertheless, it is possible to do as you have done (though I have not checked your math on item costs, more on this below).
It is however what the DMG suggests for starting higher level characters, and the only guideline that exists. Actual play experience suggests organic characters tend to end up with substantially more wealth than expected by the WBL tables, but it isn't as tailored (although it could be converted into cash if necessary at a loss). I imagine this washes out in the end.
lich-loved wrote:
(2) Your contingency and simulacrum spells will run you about an additional 6000xp. It pushes you over 15th, but not in an measurable way.
I haven't actually cast a contingency (missing the focus at the moment, but wanted to make sure I had the spell). However, you'll note that Simulacrum doesn't cost xp anymore, nor do any spells. They all cost gold, which has been accounted for.
lich-loved wrote:
(3)From my knowledge of Paizo and other published modules 15+ and above, the foes are not optimized in this fashion (stats in the range you are talking about aren't seen in Paizo adventures for example, because not every villain is equipped in that fashion). Some of this is because foes are built with treasure tables and NPC WBL not PC WBL guidelines and other times foes do not include this exotic treasure because the module designers do not want funky +6/+4 items to be found in a "standard module", perhaps because many DMs would not support such items in their campaigns. I am not sure how I would handle this if you brought this character to my game. I guess I would need to go rework the module so that the foes had about the same gear load that you did.
That funky item is hand-crafted and from the Arcane Bond class feature of wizards.
lich-loved wrote:
(4) I haven't checked your other items, but you should look carefully at that Ring of Mystic Prowess:
(a) The cost for an ability boosting item is bonus squared times 1000gp, so a +6 INT ring should be 36,000.
(b) Adding a +4 CON bonus to this ring requires another 16,000gp plus another 8000gp adder for adding a second ability to a body slot affinity item
These two items bring the market price to 60,000gp. I see you costed it at 30,000gp which means you forged it yourself, but you lack the Forge Ring feat and would need to expend 2400xp to do this. If you performed this same approach on all your items, you have probably made a mistake somewhere or managed to find someone that crafted all of your items at their cost (half market...
Would you please actually read the 3.P beta Lich-Loved?
(1) Crafting no longer requires xp.
(2) The wizard may add abilities to his Arcane Bonded item as if he had any appropriate crafting feats.
Finally, if anyone thinks time is an issue I'll note that all of me, my simulacrum, and my cohort are capable of crafting wondrous items. Simulacrums are great for parallel processing.
As for my earlier points, I'm happy to just hear about what stands out in every case... i.e. if every spells takes at least one minute on lookup, tell me which spell takes more than that, etc. Although even "every spell takes thirty seconds" is relevant, as it leads to much eye-rolling from other players at a crowded table.
As for my earlier points, I'm happy to just hear about what stands out in every case... i.e. if every spells takes at least one minute on lookup, tell me which spell takes more than that, etc. Although even "every spell takes thirty seconds" is relevant, as it leads to much eye-rolling from other players at a crowded table.
I promise the full adventure 1 write-up is coming sometime today or tomorrow, but there are some things I can definitely comment on now.
Undeath to Death could really do with its short description mentioning the 9HD cap for affected monsters.
Destruction targets a creature and kills it, then destroys its body. Its body is an object at that point - so does Destruction work on undead? (Fort save. Undead are only effected by spells requiring a fort save if those spells effect objects.) DM ruled it should against corporeal undead, not that it actually came up (we had alternatives prepared), because they do have a body which could be turned to dust.
Control Undead required looking up to see what 'control' means. Its still not totally clear. Can you force an undead monster under your control to voluntarily fail a save? The spell puts no limits on what you can command it to do, nor is it allowed to resist or refuse.
Part of the big problem, of course, is wizards tend to have quite a few spells in their spellbook at high levels (I think mine tops 100), and keeping track of what all of them do can be problematic. That Paizo has changed the functioning of a lot of spells means I can't be sure I know what a spell is going to do without looking - as I mentioned, this is mostly pre-game prep (I spent a lot of character creation reading spell descriptions). But this has always been an experience problem with spellcasters - committing spell function to memory takes time.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
I have questions about the Cohort... Some because the Feat confuses me..
I am assuming you Recruited him when you got 11th level and got the feat. This is the part that confuses me.... Here is the Feat for getting a Cohort..
Beta wrote:
Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. You can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to your alignment on either the law-vs chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and you take a Leadership penalty if you recruit a cohort of an alignment different from your own.
Which is it?.. Can you Recruit a Cohort at the level the chart says or or 2 or more levels lower then yourself?.. Because that is different numbers...
I am assuming you recruited the Cohort at level 11 as a Level 7 Cohort, and assumed he survived with you until level 15 so he would have gotten the Exp to be able to be level 13.
Beta wrote:
Cohorts earn XP as follows:
The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
Divide the cohort’s level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.
I have not done the math yet to see if he could be level 13, but what Exp chart did you use? Slow, Medium or Fast?
First, there are some ad hoc modifiers for the level that almost certainly apply. A level 11 character most certainly qualifies for 'great power', for example, especially a spellcaster.
Further, Cohorts most definitely catch up to you in level if they start more than 2 below you. I didn't calculate out the math exactly but the DM agreed he'd certainly be caught up by 15th level. (We also didn't want to discuss the ad hoc modifiers too much either, especially as some of them involve 'rp' issues which were obviously not being played through - like a 'reputation for generosity').
It doesn't matter which xp chart you use so long as you and the cohort use the same one, because they scale the same. Ie, one is a linear transformation of the other.
I suppose I should specify I'll be using the medium xp chart.
Jason Nelson
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
Squirrelloid wrote:
toyrobots wrote:
As for my earlier points, I'm happy to just hear about what stands out in every case... i.e. if every spells takes at least one minute on lookup, tell me which spell takes more than that, etc. Although even "every spell takes thirty seconds" is relevant, as it leads to much eye-rolling from other players at a crowded table.
I promise the full adventure 1 write-up is coming sometime today or tomorrow, but there are some things I can definitely comment on now.
Undeath to Death could really do with its short description mentioning the 9HD cap for affected monsters.
Yeah, spells referring to other spells for their rules is a little bleah, even if it is a smart space-saver. That's one reason UtD doesn't see a ton of use IME - by the time you get it, most of the undead you fight have more than 8 HD so they're immune.
Squirrelloid wrote:
Destruction targets a creature and kills it, then destroys its body. Its body is an object at that point - so does Destruction work on undead? (Fort save. Undead are only effected by spells requiring a fort save if those spells effect objects.) DM ruled it should against corporeal undead, not that it actually came up (we had alternatives prepared), because they do have a body which could be turned to dust.
Unfortunately, undead are also specifically immune to death effects per the MM. As destruction is a death effect, they are immune to it.
Squirrelloid wrote:
Control Undead required looking up to see what 'control' means. Its still not totally clear. Can you force an undead monster under your control to voluntarily fail a save? The spell puts no limits on what you can command it to do, nor is it allowed to resist or refuse.
It's true. It doesn't even have the dominate qualifiers about commands against its nature or self-mutilation or anything like that. If I were DMing I'd say it works like dominate (at least vs. intelligent undead - you can command zombies to eat their own heads if you like), but that is purely based on DMing style and not RAW.
Squirrelloid wrote:
Part of the big problem, of course, is wizards tend to have quite a few spells in their spellbook at high levels (I think mine tops 100), and keeping track of what all of them do can be problematic. That Paizo has changed the functioning of a lot of spells means I can't be sure I know what a spell is going to do without looking - as I mentioned, this is mostly pre-game prep (I spent a lot of character creation reading spell descriptions). But this has always been an experience problem with spellcasters - committing spell function to memory takes time.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Further, Cohorts most definitely catch up to you in level if they start more than 2 below you. I didn't calculate out the math exactly but the DM agreed he'd certainly be caught up by 15th level.
Yup he would... But you would have to be a couple of exp above level 15 so he can get that 1 exp to get to level 13.. but that is no big deal.
To appease myself I did just do the math... that was a b&&*! ;-)
Edit: By the way did you think about doing a True Solo with out the Leadership feat?
Would you please actually read the 3.P beta Lich-Loved?
(1) Crafting no longer requires xp.
(2) The wizard may add abilities to his Arcane Bonded item as if he had any appropriate crafting feats.
I apologize for the inaccuracies in my post. I was a tad pressed for time when I did the xp assessment and wrote the post on autopilot, navigating to d20srd.org instead of my beta. You are indeed correct about all items mentioned in your post.
When I said "contingency" I meant to say "permanency" though again, these may not have the same xp costs as they did in 3.5. I will review the build when I am not so tired and pressed.
Regardless, I would love to hear how the playtests work out. I am sure it is going to be interesting seeing these characters at work.
Edit: By the way did you think about doing a True Solo with out the Leadership feat?
So, the real reason I want a cleric is for the Cleric divination spells, because the wizard doesn't have access to, for example, divination, which I consider essential for high-level play. Wizards also have problems covering a sufficiency of the skill base by themselves - in particular, they can't cover knowledges and at least one social skill, simply because they just don't have that many skill points.
So really, I could presume I have a party of C/W and only the wizard does stuff beyond the divination game and the social aspects, and it'd probably end up being not too different than the above. Ie, the cohort is to just somewhat emulate the range of general non-combat abilities associated with a fuller party. If there was a full party (C/D/W/+1 caster or rogue), I wouldn't really need the cohort (though leadership is sufficiently awesome that I'd probably be tempted to take it anyway, but I'd probably take another wizard).
I did, however, build the cleric to be more generally useful, because as long as I have him...
Lich-Loved:
Permanency also requires cash instead of xp now, which is why a cash cost is listed instead of an xp cost.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Edit: By the way did you think about doing a True Solo with out the Leadership feat?
So, the real reason I want a cleric is for the Cleric divination spells, because the wizard doesn't have access to, for example, divination, which I consider essential for high-level play. Wizards also have problems covering a sufficiency of the skill base by themselves - in particular, they can't cover knowledges and at least one social skill, simply because they just don't have that many skill points.
So really, I could presume I have a party of C/W and only the wizard does stuff beyond the divination game and the social aspects, and it'd probably end up being not too different than the above. Ie, the cohort is to just somewhat emulate the range of general non-combat abilities associated with a fuller party. If there was a full party (C/D/W/+1 caster or rogue), I wouldn't really need the cohort (though leadership is sufficiently awesome that I'd probably be tempted to take it anyway, but I'd probably take another wizard).
I did, however, build the cleric to be more generally useful, because as long as I have him...
Lich-Loved:
Permanency also requires cash instead of xp now, which is why a cash cost is listed instead of an xp cost.
I am confused... what are you using the Cohort for?
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
feytharn wrote:
Sorry to ask - I probably just missed something in the chereacter Information, but how did you rise your DEX from 15 to 21?
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
feytharn wrote:
Sorry to ask - I probably just missed something in the chereacter Information, but how did you rise your DEX from 15 to 21?
You seem to have posts eaten a lot. I don't want to be monotonous here, but you should really CTRL+A,CTRL+C before you Submit Post. Either that, or type your post in a word processor first.
I lost a few detailed posts in my playtest thread, so I learned this mantra quickly.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
hogarth wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:
Squirrelloid:
Good to see you doing some face-to-face testing!
Just to clarify -- Squirreloid wasn't DM'ing himself?
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid,
If you find the time can you do the same thing with a Fighter 15.
If you find the time can you do the same thing with a Fighter 15.
Seriously? How many splatbooks am I allowed to use? I don't think you can build a viable fighter 15 using just Paizo beta, there aren't enough feats worth taking.
Geez, this is going to be on the second page before I post the 1st adventure...
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Squirrelloid,
If you find the time can you do the same thing with a Fighter 15.
Seriously? How many splatbooks am I allowed to use? I don't think you can build a viable fighter 15 using just Paizo beta, there aren't enough feats worth taking.
Geez, this is going to be on the second page before I post the 1st adventure...
Yes I am serious..And use what ever rules you used for making your wizard for making the Fighter.. Just remember he is going to be a Solo character so build accordingly.
If you are going to do this please post the build first so we can critique it..
and no Wizard Cohorts :-p... Cleric is fine since you did that with your wizard.
I suspect FIghter will have many changes before we get to the PRPG but let us test the Fighter..I would do it but I can't even find 1 player..
Part I: Oustanding Issues
Control Undead and Ring Gate, both of which I've mentioned above in other posts and won't clutter this one further.
Spell quick summaries could include more pertinent information (Does it require a save/which? Does it allow SR? Are there relevant HD or hp caps?) Not as much of a problem for me since I've got good reading retention and many spells weren't changed, but I can understand why there are people who don't want to deal with playing a wizard.
Part II: Module Review
In addition to playing through it, I talked with my DM about the adventure from his perspective, and read the module a few days after having run through it. Running through it just felt like it was easy. I wasn't prepared for how badly written it was - I feel sorry for my DM.
Warning: Epic fail is epic.
Spoiler:
I'm not going to pull punches, Darrin Drader is a moron. Its not his inability to understand high level D+D (although he doesn't), its his inability to understand simple geometry or his own writing.
I could take the cheap shot and rag on him for naming a town where three creeks come together Three Forks (hint, N creeks coming together create N-1 forks), but that's just a sign of general incompetence (since he could, you know, count on the map) and not necessarily stupidity. It doesn't impact running or playing the module at all, I'll let him off easy here.
Its important to keep in mind that he spends *two full paragraphs* explaining that when you arrive at three forks its snowing really hard. So hard you can under no circumstances see farther than 100'. While one might wonder why the PCs are bothering to be out in this weather, or heck, bothering to *walk* (which he also assumes for some unknown reason), we'll just grant those assumptions for now.
Within two paragraphs of telling you that no one can see more than 100' he tells you that when they enter the village "they are already being observed by the undead patrolling the village in area A." Are they really? How big is the village? How far apart are monster group As? This would all be rather pertinent information, except there *no scale bar on the map*. You might think, having created a situation where distance was crucially important, he'd remember to tell you what the distances were. Uggh.
Fortunately, the manor house is on the map, and its internal map is rendered in 5' squares, so we know the manor house is 130' long (if we count the squares). So, using manor house increments, we determine:
(1) The town roughly approximates a circle ~450' across.
(2) The average distance between monster A groups is ~400'
(3) The manor house is situated ~250' away from the nearest house and on top of a hill of unspecified elevation.
Note also the monster groups do not move, and they are located equidistantly spaced along the perimeter of the circle that is the town.
So lets review the claim that the party is under observation by the A groups. If the party approaches town from a random direction (no direction is specified on the map) there's only a 50% chance of a monster group A seeing them when they cross the line between two group As (where there's the least distance, and thus the best coverage), because they can only see a combined total 200' of that 400'. It gets worse, the approximate proportion of the town they can observe is ~40% (1/2 radius of the circle they can view is in town, and there are 4 such circles, do the relative area calculation).
But wait, you've got 100' visibility and you expect the PCs to find Three Forks? Have you ever been wandering through wilderness in a blizzard? Seriously, they never find the town - they walk right by it. Their only hope is if they can find one of the (certainly frozen) creeks and follow it into town. This means the party does not approach from a random direction, they approach along a creek. There are 4 creek 'halves' entering town - three inflows and the outflow. Only *one* of them has an undead patrol within 100' of it. *Facepalm*
And in a sheer stroke of brilliance: "Development: The undead guardians do not bother to report the presence of the party to their master, since
they assume that the intrusion will be observed by the guards on the hill near the manor."
Yes, they assume the intrusion will be noticed by the guards who are between 250' and 700' away in 100' visibility conditions. *Epic Facepalm*
Now, assuming the PCs found the town, they need to find the manor house, which is 2.5x their visibility distance away and only 130' long (and less across) in an unknown direction. Yeah, not happening.
--------------
As if the problems just running the module weren't bad enough, the encounters are boring. Excepting the BBEG, his mount, and the Mercenary Captain, there are 4 types of enemies (and chances are you never fight the Shadows from group As). Swordwraiths, Shadows (A only), Hu Mercenary Fighter 10, Hu Mercenary Wiz 10. And you fight them over and over again, at least in theory.
Then there's the fact that not a single encounter has any proper countermeasures for a 15th level adventure. There is no defense against Scry, Teleport, Ethereal or Planar Travel, *Invisibility*, etc... And its a site-based adventure, which makes it easy to use such effects. Heck, the party is expected to walk to the manor *6 levels* after Overland Flight became available, not to mention is supposed to trudge through a snowstorm in unknown wilderness to do so when Weather Control is an option. It demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what 15th level parties are capable of.
Seriously, I can't imagine a monkey randomly pounding on a typewriter could have done worse.
Part III: Adventure Synopsis
For the sake of clarity, there are three days: Day 0, Day 1, and Day 2. I will use "we" to mean "my cohort and I".
I list the needed roll for each of the monsters against saves I forced them to make - the DM informed me of the exact number after I cast the spell and before he rolled (in the open).
Day 0:
We get approached by a aristocrat trying to reclaim the family manor early one evening. He offers us 8000gp in gems. We're insulted by the paltry amount, but since we're playtesting the adventure we have to actually play it... We pump him for information: location, who has control of it (dark figure with glowy eyes, spooky, mention of undead), etc... We offer to protect him and the DM starts making evasive answers. I give him an 'I'm going to have to rescue this guy later, aren't I' look and drop it.
We do some asking around town (and cast divination), and discover the local mercenary company has taken an unusual contract in about the right area. Valderash sweet-talks a wench and gets the name of the mercenary captain.
One Contact Other Plane later and we have Mr. Glowing Eyes first and last name. (Both of which are clearly one-word answers).
We sleep.
Day 1:
Divination day. We (Valderash and I) prep lots of Scry (heightened where possible), greater scry, and spells which can be cast through greater scry, plus one Extended Overland Flight (cast on simulacrum before going to bed). We start with the mercenary captain, and scry other people he talks to over the course of the day. We also scry Ombrol (BBEG). We map the corridors and rooms as best we're able and get a decent map of the manor, as well as typical locations for mercenaries and undead minions. We also hear quite a bit of interesting conversation, and see our employer get thrown in a cell late in the day. Gee, that was predictable.
We sleep.
Day 2:
The Simulacrum leaves early and flies to the manor so it arrives at a reasonable time. (DM decided you're supposed to find this stupid manor if the adventure is supposed to work, so he does. Cleric can use Find the Path if relevant). Simulacrum takes one half of the Ring Gate.
Notable Prepped Spells: (in addition to spells typically cast each day at the start of the 'adventuring day' except for Mindblank, for which there wasn't room, not that I expected to be in any danger).
Me:
1st: Reduce Person x2
2nd: Arcane Lock x4
4th: Phantasmal Killer x3
5th: Cloudkill x3
6th: Flesh to Stone, Undeath to Death x3
7th: Heightened Disintegrate, Heightened Undeath to Death, Control Undead
8th: Mass Charm Monster x2
I cast all my spells through the ring gate the simulacrum is holding, which is invisible because its gear he's carrying. Note that I'm casting the spell, so the simulacrum never makes any attacks, and thus never becomes visible.
Simulacrum lands on the roof of the manor, casts ext invisibility and ext blink, and uses blink to move through the roof and into the manor near the barracks. It spends its actions moving from one exterior door to the other (two rooms, one interior door, one exterior door each) so I can cast Arcane Lock on each door, using blink to pass through the thin walls. Then it steps into a room and readies an action to step through the wall into the other room when I cast Cloudkill, then repeat in the second room. The guards are trapped, the cloudkill fills the rooms, I leave them to die.
Two mercenaries are bringing my employer from the cell towards the main event room as I exit the barracks. A Phantasmal Killer and Quickened Phantasmal Killer (via metamagic mastery) dispatch both of them trivially.
The simulacrum uses blink to enter the main event room. Open with Mass Charm Monster (DC27), requiring a 17 from the mercenary captain, an 18 from the mercenary wizard, and 20s from the other mercenaries. They all fail, and nothing notable has happened yet as far as the undead are concerned. I bust out a Heightened Undeath to Death, which means the Swordwraiths need 20s - and one of them saves. (DM: "Well, there's a wasted '20'") The rest get annihilated. It does not affect Ombral - ok, he has more than 9HD (later inspection would reveal he has 10HD...). Ombral notices his swordwraiths *poof*, but he can't perceive the invisible and generally non-moving Simulacrum (whose only job is to hold the ring gate so I can see), so he quaffs a potion of invisibility (completely irrelevant, I can see him, but he doesn't know that). I hit him with a control Undead (DC 26, he needs a 20, which he fails). Then I Undeath to Death the last Swordwraith for completeness. I cast Reduce Person on myself and Valderash, and we step through the Ring Gate.
I demand Ombrul answer questions about secret areas in the manor. He reveals the doors to the room we're in, and I press him some more and he reveals a cache of wealth in the room. I have him open it.
Valderash explains to the now helpful Mercenary Commander that their employer is having a change of heart, and its a good thing they received payment in advance because their services are going to not be required in a few moments. Valderash is dealing with helpful creatures, has a large diplomacy score, and is being emminently reasonable. He convinces the mercenary captain to withdraw his troops and abandon the manor. (For the sake of argument, diplomacy can convince the troops inside the front door not to fight, and I've got another Mass Charm for the group outside the front door, but as I've got their leader under my thumb the way it actually played out seemed perfectly reasonable to both the DM and I).
Valderash walks them out and then I disintegrate Ombrul (DC 26, he needs a 17).
The simulacrum has meanwhile renewed blink and invisibility. I hop back through the Ring Gate (I can see invisible after all) and have the simulacrum head to the stables. An Undeath to Death clears all 8 swordwraiths (DM: 'I need 20s again... and there's all my 17s and 18s'). Ombrul's (CR3...) Fiendish Warhorse busts out of the stable and can scent the simulacrum, so it gets an attack in. I Flesh to Stone it and leave it standing there.
Manor house cleared. The undead outside disperse without Ombrul controlling them. We perform a search of the enemies for valuables and don't bother to nickel and dime our employer looking for heirlooms (which he volunteered to pay us for).
Adventure Conclusion
XP:
Monsters actually defeated: 14 Fighter 10 (CR8*), 3 Wizard 10 (CR8*), Ombrul (CR13), 13 Swordwraiths (CR7), Mercenary Captain (CR13*) = 10875xp (according to the d20SRD encounter calculator), which is 9425 for my cohort.
*As we recall, classed characters are now CR = level -2 in pathfinder.
(barracks - corpses) 2x RoP +1, 2x Cloak of Resistance +1, 2x Bracers of Armor +2, 2x Wand of Lightning Bolts (25 charges), 2x Scrolls (Fireball, Teleport, flesh to stone), 4x potion of haste, 10x(full plate +2, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 bastard sword, +1 Composite Longbow (+3), 25 +1 arrows, +1 cloak of resistance, 3 potions of bear's strength, 3 potions of cure moderate)
(Hallway - corpses) 2x (full plate +2, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 bastard sword, +1 Composite Longbow (+3), 25 +1 arrows, +1 cloak of resistance, 3 potions of bear's strength, 3 potions of cure moderate)
(Ombrul) +3 full plate, +4 greatsword, +2 heavy crossbow, cloak of charisma +2, chime of opening, potion of invisibility, 50gp.
(Secret Compartment I made Ombrul divulge) 15000gp, 5 potions of cure critical, heirloom locket (just gave it to our employer)
I'll, uh... add that up later. Damn that's a lot of crap. (DM literally handed me a list which I just transcribed... Haven't bothered to do anything with it yet...).
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Stuff about a Wimpy Adventure
Like I said last time.. I hope in the future you pick a quest that is Really a level 15 quest and not one that says it is but isn't..;-p
First off, thanks for taking the time to post a playtest report.
A few of questions:
How are you targeting your spells? Nothing in the Ring Gate description says that light passes through it. In fact, the item description suggests a charatcer "might poke his head through to look around".
Second, how are you communicating with your Simulacrum?
Third, how did nobody notice your constant scrying, and if they did, why didn't they react?
Finally, aside from your observational content, calling Darrin Drader a "moron" isn't exactly the sort of thing that is condusive to Paizo respecting your opinion. He has written things for the industry. Have you?
First off, thanks for taking the time to post a playtest report.
A few of questions:
How are you targeting your spells? Nothing in the Ring Gate description says that light passes through it. In fact, the item description suggests a charatcer "might poke his head through to look around".
It explicitly says you can cast spells through it.
Jal Dorak wrote:
Second, how are you communicating with your Simulacrum?
You mentally control your simulacrum, as per the spell description.
Jal Dorak wrote:
Third, how did nobody notice your constant scrying, and if they did, why didn't they react?
Because the highest Will save is +10 and the modal Will save is +5? How would they notice unless someone passed a save? (Even if they did, they'd just be aware that someone cast a spell on them that failed, not which spell it was).
Jal Dorak wrote:
Finally, aside from your observational content, calling Darrin Drader a "moron" isn't exactly the sort of thing that is condusive to Paizo respecting your opinion. He has written things for the industry. Have you?
Given this example of his writing, I'm wondering why he was ever hired to do so in the first place. Bad writing is bad writing - I'm just calling a spade a spade. And failure to actually think through your own ideas is stupidity. The shoe fits.
Really, I shouldn't fault solely Darrin. The editor managed to read it and not catch any of those problems. The entire production team is probably at fault (including the cartographer - who should know better than to make a map with no scale bars).
Just because I haven't written for the industry doesn't mean I couldn't or wouldn't do a better job. I'd certainly make a better editor. I don't know what this obsession is with 'have you done it professionally?' as if the 'professionals' were somehow magically better able to design adventures than the rest of us because they took the effort to write something up and submit it.
----------
You're right, xp is different. I'll figure that out at some point.
Second, how are you communicating with your Simulacrum?
You mentally control your simulacrum, as per the spell description.
No the simulacrum spells doesn't do that:
Beta Web Enhancement, p62 wrote:
At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute
command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must
be exercised in some other manner."
I have just one question: I understand you where the player, so did you read the module before or after your playtest?
Second, how are you communicating with your Simulacrum?
You mentally control your simulacrum, as per the spell description.
No the simulacrum spells doesn't do that:
Beta Web Enhancement, p62 wrote:
At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute
command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must
be exercised in some other manner."
For the sake of argument, the Simulacrum is perfectly aware of the plan (having been present when it was formulated), and can stick his head through the ring gate for additional instructions as necessary. Especially as the planning was notably distinct from the doing (I did my thinking out loud for the DMs benefit).
Tholas wrote:
I have just one question: I understand you where the player, so did you read the module before or after your playtest?
After, I believe I mention that before ranting.
-----------
While i've got a post, Toyrobots had wanted information on
(1) Frequency and Duration of gaming sessions:
All told, this took maybe 3 hours, most of which was spent on the scrying. Day 2 took somewhere around half an hour, with the most time consuming part being rolling saving throws.
(2) In game adventuring day
Scrying took all day. Day 2's interesting bit lasted around 30 rounds, only about half of which were spent in actual combat.
First off, thanks for taking the time to post a playtest report.
A few of questions:
How are you targeting your spells? Nothing in the Ring Gate description says that light passes through it. In fact, the item description suggests a charatcer "might poke his head through to look around".
It explicitly says you can cast spells through it.
Being able to cast a spell through it isn't the same as being able to target a spell through it - not even close.
First off, thanks for taking the time to post a playtest report.
A few of questions:
How are you targeting your spells? Nothing in the Ring Gate description says that light passes through it. In fact, the item description suggests a charatcer "might poke his head through to look around".
It explicitly says you can cast spells through it.
Being able to cast a spell through it isn't the same as being able to target a spell through it - not even close.
All spells that could actually be cast *through* it have a target, so actually yes, those are synonomous.
Would you care to explain mechanistically what you mean? If you can't target through it what can you cast through it?
First off, thanks for taking the time to post a playtest report.
A few of questions:
How are you targeting your spells? Nothing in the Ring Gate description says that light passes through it. In fact, the item description suggests a charatcer "might poke his head through to look around".
It explicitly says you can cast spells through it.
Being able to cast a spell through it isn't the same as being able to target a spell through it - not even close.
All spells that could actually be cast *through* it have a target, so actually yes, those are synonomous.
Would you care to explain mechanistically what you mean? If you can't target through it what can you cast through it?
You can cast spell through it. That doesn't provide you a method of targeting - you could use scrying, methods to see through the eyes of the carrier or even a glassteel wall that is between you and your target and that allows you to see him but not to cast certain spell through it without other helpful things like the Ring Gate.
Aura strong conjuration; CL 17th
Slot —; Price 40,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. each.
Description
These always come in pairs—two iron rings, each about 18
inches in diameter. The rings must be on the same plane
of existence and within 100 miles of each other to function.
Whatever is put through one ring comes out the other, and
up to 100 pounds of material can be transferred each day.
(Objects only partially pushed through and then retracted
do not count.) This useful device allows for instantaneous
transport of items or messages, and even attacks. A character
can reach through to grab things near the other ring, or even
stab a weapon through if so desired. Alternatively, a character
could stick his head through to look around. A spellcaster
could even cast a spell through a ring gate. A Small character
can make a DC 13 Escape Artist check to slip through.
Creatures of Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine size can pass through
easily. Each ring has a “entry side” and an “exit side,” both
marked with appropriate symbols.
There is no mention that "Whatever is put through one ring, except light,comes out the other," Light has no mass, so it doesn't exhaust the weight limit. It is mentioned that a character can stick his head through to look around, but using the rules as written he can look straight through without such a maneuver. Such uses as putting an arm through the gate to grab something, or stabbing a weapon through it certainly presume seeing through it.
I would like to add that the purpose of playtesting is not so much to discuss the correct interpretation of the rules, as to find the rules which need interpretation or change, and propose a change to them.
I would ask, therefore, whether you feel that use of ring gates should remain, or is it problematic.
Third, how did nobody notice your constant scrying, and if they did, why didn't they react?
Because the highest Will save is +10 and the modal Will save is +5? How would they notice unless someone passed a save? (Even if they did, they'd just be aware that someone cast a spell on them that failed, not which spell it was).
Pathfinder Beta wrote:
A scrying spell creates an invisible magical
sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. The sensor, however, is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active
spell.
I have no idea what the various intelligence scores of the targets you were scrying, but I think you or your DM may have ignored or missed this rule.
I think your testing of the ring gates has pointed out a weakness in the item description. It is also debatable whether your enemies can see through the gate in the other direction (does invisibility cover up the item's effect, or just the item itself?)
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
baduin wrote:
There is no mention that "Whatever is put through one ring, except light,comes out the other," Light has no mass, so it doesn't exhaust the weight limit.
thread jack
Spoiler:
To be more accurate Light does have mass, I am simplifying this a lot and my Physics friend could describe it better, but if light did not have mass gravity could not effect it which it does.
There is a lot more to that and I am not the right person to go into a dispute about it. But it is safe to say that the mass is so insubstantial that it would not make any difference to the weight limit allowed to go through the ring.
If you do want to dispute this I will ask my friend to join in.
There is no mention that "Whatever is put through one ring, except light,comes out the other," Light has no mass, so it doesn't exhaust the weight limit.
Thus, even though light has no REST MASS (because it can never be at rest!), it does have an effective mass which (it turns out) has all the properties one expects from MASS - in particular, it has weight in a gravitational field [photons can "fall''] and exerts a gravitational attraction of its own on other masses. The classic Gedankenexperiment on this topic is one in which the net mass of a closed box with mirrored sides increases if it is filled with light bouncing back and forth off the mirrors!
Is that weird, or what?
Everytime someone tries to apply real world physics or common sense to a fantasy roleplaying game a small kitten dies!
There is no mention that "Whatever is put through one ring, except light,comes out the other," Light has no mass, so it doesn't exhaust the weight limit.
thread jack
** spoiler omitted **
errr... it has mass-energy, which is what gravity works on. It doesn't actually have mass. So long as we're quibbling about semantics...
First, bravo Squirrel for actually playtesting, and sticking to core rules.
A few minor notes/questions:
1. Your cohort's level: It is my understanding that the "Cohort Level" entry for Leadership is a hard limit, not simply a "when you get them" limit. I'll admit I cannot find anything overly specific to justify that at the moment. Given that, your leadership score (giving all beneficial modifers) would be 16 (15 +2 +1 +1 -1 (different alignment) -2 (charisma)), for a maximum level of 11. Not the forum to debate this perhaps, but something to consider.
2. Cohort EQ: as an NPC, cohort's should probably get gear according to the NPC WBL tables, instead of the PC. Leadership feat does not specify (which would default to NPC), but the wording is somewhat fudgeable.
3. Spell costs: I feel you underestimate the value a 15th+ level wizard would place on letting someone else scribe spells out of his spellbook. You use the formula 50 x spell level for that privilege. This feels roughly right at low levels, but an 8th level scroll costs 3000 gp - your wizard was charged 3200 gp to scribe 8 - 8th level spells. Again, something to consider - no rule to go by. Of course no scribing costs due to blessed book.
4. Pricing your Arcane Bond ring - both Int and Con are off-spot affinity for a ring, that would make the price 54k for +6 Int, 32k for +4 Con, total cost to you of 43k instead of 30k. However I disagree with Paizo re-instating the secondary effect cost increase for on-spot abilty score enhancements, so the I'd only charge you 8k to put +4 con on your belt of dex.
5. Ring Gate controversies: Enh. Sound should go through. 1) Air should go through, but I'd agree it has to be "pushed". Wind would do it, osmosis would not. 2) Sound is energy (see D&D energy types :) - transmitted by matter like anything else - the matter itself doesn't have to go through, just transfer the vibrations. And yes, *Light* should go through (though for the record he was referring to "Target:" spells that require vision, etc., whereas a fireball could be cast through blind.)
Along with that probably anyone looking at the simulacrum would see through the Ring Gate. Even if not Invisibility doesn't cover light sources, so any light on your side would come through.
Yes, you need a way to communicate with your simulacrum to say "hey wait".
However: Sound - all you're doing is casting. Light - be in a dark room - you've got darkvision. Communication - Message spell should work just fine - you've got a path of effect. So no problems.
I find it a bit funny that you're doing a "Solo" game with three characters, but there you go.
Thanks for the write-ups, most interesting. Glad I took the time to read your post - I usually skip them. I do think though if you put a straw on your cleric's back he would collapse to the ground unable to move from encumbrance. :)
Jason Nelson
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
Squirrelloid wrote:
feytharn wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:
First off, thanks for taking the time to post a playtest report.
A few of questions:
How are you targeting your spells? Nothing in the Ring Gate description says that light passes through it. In fact, the item description suggests a charatcer "might poke his head through to look around".
It explicitly says you can cast spells through it.
Being able to cast a spell through it isn't the same as being able to target a spell through it - not even close.
All spells that could actually be cast *through* it have a target, so actually yes, those are synonomous.
Would you care to explain mechanistically what you mean? If you can't target through it what can you cast through it?
They're not synonymous, because D&D differentiates between spells with targets and spells with areas. Mechanistically, the distinction is this:
You can cast spells through it, ergo you have line of effect.
You may or may not actually be able to see through it (the item description is ambiguous), ergo you may very well not have line of sight.
IOW, casting cloudkill through the ring gate would be easy - just pop it into the room on the other side. Stipulate a distance on the other side of the gate and let it go.
Casting targeted spells like mass charm requires you to see and select the targets. You couldn't target them inside an obscuring mist, invisibility sphere or anything else that blocked your LOS, even though there is nothing preventing you from casting a spell into the area where those targets are.
If the ring gate lets you see through like a porthole, you might see some of the creatures but not all of them. In theory the simulacrum could rotate the porthole so you could look around the room, but on your turn, when you cast a spell, you can target based on what you can see at that moment, not what you were able to see on the sim's turn when it was playing Cruise Director Julie.
You could, of course, cast a series of greater invisibility on yourself and poke your head through so you can see and target normally (unless there is someone behind the ring gate).
Also, you could resolve the "how do you talk to the sim" question easily enough by just casting telepathic bond (which allows infinite range once cast).
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
baduin wrote:
There is no mention that "Whatever is put through one ring, except light,comes out the other," Light has no mass, so it doesn't exhaust the weight limit.
thread jack
** spoiler omitted **
errr... it has mass-energy, which is what gravity works on. It doesn't actually have mass. So long as we're quibbling about semantics...
I think I will Bow out of this discussion, and it is off topic anyway. Though I could use references on hand to talk about it and mostly understand it, there are so many different ways people are talking about it that it gets a bit confusing. I will ask my physics friend to better describe it to me.
It is also debatable whether your enemies can see through the gate in the other direction (does invisibility cover up the item's effect, or just the item itself?)
Writing one web adventure does not a moron make.
"Each ring has a “entry side” and an “exit side,” both marked with appropriate symbols." When we considering this, the situation becomes a bit funny. The ring gate shows the situation on the other side from the "exit side", and the spells, weapons etc must be directed into the "entry side." You must target your spells, turn the gate ring exactly 180 degrees around, and fire it. When the gate is in some kind of special mounting (easy in magician's laboratory) this should be fairly easy. But there is still a problem: the simulacrum's side also has an entry and exit side. As long as it kept the entry side towards the target, it would get the spell right in face. In practice two precisely welded ring gate pointing in opposite directions would work much better.
From the wording of the item description, it seems the original authors assumed that you can look through it at the same time as putting items through. In other words, the light would go in the opposite direction to material items - it would enter on the "exit" side and go out on "entry"
The item description would really benefit from the discussion of such problems.
Pathfinder RPG wrote:
Invisibility
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (an eyelash encased in gum arabic)
Range personal or touch
Target you or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object);
Spell Resistance yes (harmless) or yes (harmless, object)
The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from
sight. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so. Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.
...
pg. 321
Invisibility: An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance).
pg. 395
Invisibility
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt. Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision. Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks. A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
...
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with f lour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on
his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.
...
Is an occassion to an interesting discussion about the mechanics of the Invisibility spell.
Although it is nowhere said explicitly, it is obvious that Invisibility works either by "bending" the light so that it flows around the character, or by registering it on one side of the character (and absorbing any reflected light) and emitting on the other. The "bending" hypothesis we can reject out of hand, since the invisible creatures are not blind. The boundaries of the objects affected are set when the spell is cast. The light emitted by the affected objects is NOT affected.
In that case, the ring gate problem is easy to solve. The light emitted by the "exit side" is not affected by the spell, since it does not fall on its surface, so it cannot be "absorbed" and "emitted". But this is easy to remedy - the other ring gate should be kept in darkness, and the magician weak a dark or optimally a fuligin mask, to stop reflections. That way there is no light to emit. In that case the "exit" side would be dark, since the light falling into the "entry" side would be emitted on the other side. The invisibility spell would be able to cope with that effect easily - it is an equivalent of a very dark object and would be covered by the light emitted by invisiblity spell.
Conclusion:
Add some description of the way the invisibility works to the spell description. State expressly whether it is possible to see and listen through the ring gate, and from which side of the item light exits. Describe the effects of the invisibility on the ring gate.
First, bravo Squirrel for actually playtesting, and sticking to core rules.
A few minor notes/questions:
1. Your cohort's level: It is my understanding that the "Cohort Level" entry for Leadership is a hard limit, not simply a "when you get them" limit. I'll admit I cannot find anything overly specific to justify that at the moment. Given that, your leadership score (giving all beneficial modifers) would be 16 (15 +2 +1 +1 -1 (different alignment) -2 (charisma)), for a maximum level of 11. Not the forum to debate this perhaps, but something to consider.
Cohort max level is your level -2. Cohort starting level is determinied by your leadership score. At least, that's what the leadership feat actually says (puts only your level -2 as a limit on how high the cohort's level can get).
Majuba wrote:
2. Cohort EQ: as an NPC, cohort's should probably get gear according to the NPC WBL tables, instead of the PC. Leadership feat does not specify (which would default to NPC), but the wording is somewhat fudgeable.
I'm going to agree its unclear. I've always played it and seen it played as PC gear, since they get a half-share of treasure they gain treasure basically as a PC of their level, which makes this consistent. (A half-share of N+2 treasure is approximately a share of level N treasure).
Majuba wrote:
3. Spell costs: I feel you underestimate the value a 15th+ level wizard would place on letting someone else scribe spells out of his spellbook. You use the formula 50 x spell level for that privilege. This feels roughly right at low levels, but an 8th level scroll costs 3000 gp - your wizard was charged 3200 gp to scribe 8 - 8th level spells. Again, something to consider - no rule to go by. Of course no scribing costs due to blessed book.
I only have access to the SRD at the moment, but I remember checking and noticing this section hasn't changed:
SRD Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.
Yes, usually means there will be exceptions. But that's rather ad hoc and assuming you can get the usual price given a little time is not unreasonable.
Majuba wrote:
4. Pricing your Arcane Bond ring - both Int and Con are off-spot affinity for a ring, that would make the price 54k for +6 Int, 32k for +4 Con, total cost to you of 43k instead of 30k. However I disagree with Paizo re-instating the secondary effect cost increase for on-spot abilty score enhancements, so the I'd only charge you 8k to put +4 con on your belt of dex.
Rings do not have slot affinity or adhere to slot affinity rules. Only wondrous items do.
Majuba wrote:
5. Ring Gate controversies: Enh. Sound should go through. 1) Air should go through, but I'd agree it has to be "pushed". Wind would do it, osmosis would not. 2) Sound is energy (see D&D energy types :) - transmitted by matter like anything else - the matter itself doesn't have to go through, just transfer the vibrations. And yes, *Light* should go through (though for the record he was referring to "Target:" spells that require vision, etc., whereas a fireball could be cast through blind).
Along with that probably anyone looking at the simulacrum would see through the Ring Gate. Even if not Invisibility doesn't cover light sources, so any light on your side would come through.
Yes, you need a way to communicate with your simulacrum to say "hey wait".
However: Sound - all you're doing is casting. Light - be in a dark room - you've got darkvision. Communication - Message spell should work just fine - you've got a path of effect. So no problems.
At some point, because the medium for exchange cannot freely pass through without breaking item function, ring gate must at least apply a damper on sound. It gets complicated. I agree that ultimately there shouldn't be problems, even if we say some sound gets through.
I'm not as such about invisibility interactions - yes, clearly light on your end comes through. But can they actually see in if the ring gate is invisible? I don't know. We decided it was a function of the item that required you to be able to see the item.
Majuba wrote:
I find it a bit funny that you're doing a "Solo" game with three characters, but there you go.
Well, its one PC - the others are features of feats or spells. Hence single quotes on solo.
Majuba wrote:
Thanks for the write-ups, most interesting. Glad I took the time to read your post - I usually skip them. I do think though if you put a straw on your cleric's back he would collapse to the ground unable to move from encumbrance. :)
Hmmm... I started writing up a more combat oriented cleric, and then changed my mind. Encumbrance gets ignored so often, but I should probably check and possibly downgrade the armor. Not a big deal given his primarily support role.
Everytime someone tries to apply real world physics or common sense to a fantasy roleplaying game a small kitten dies!
I got home and my kitten was dead.
For the love of god please stop...
Rant:
Spoiler:
Any recourse to post-medieval science in D&D tends to ruin the mood for me. I'm not saying that the setting must be "medieval", I just prefer my fantasy-science to have a feeling of antiquity. This is a world where fire is not a chemical reaction, but an expression of the elemental plane of pure fire! Now, that's just awesome.
When we start discussing the properties of light, where science has only in the last eyeblink of history begun to uncover anything at all, I worry. Don't lose sight of the fact that in this world (in the old Great Wheel anyway), Light is drawn from the elemental quasiplane of radiance, which lies between the Inner Planes of Fire and Positive Energy.
So in essence, it's okay to say light "has mass" or even weight, since there is no scientific paradigm in the world besides magic, and magic supports these claims. (see magical darkness)
If you're going to make scientific arguments, you'd best make sure they are based on the luminiferous ether, or some older junk science, because this game is as much fantasy as phlogiston was.
Anyway, Squirreloid, your review of the adventure made me smile. How about setting that powerful mind on the formulation of a checklist for what high-level modules must account for? I mean this in all seriousness.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Cohort max level is your level -2. Cohort starting level is determinied by your leadership score. At least, that's what the leadership feat actually says (puts only your level -2 as a limit on how high the cohort's level can get).
oops...I read that wrong...
I thought the level of your cohort was based on your level..My bad..
So your Base leadership score is 13 (Level + Chr bonus)
What did you and your GM decided to add or subtract from the leadership score?
Does your Simulacrum count towards 'Has a familiar, special mount,
or animal companion'?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
