I'd like to note that I'm not necessarily concerned with backwards compatibility here. I'm just trying to bring some material for thinking about for all the knights in shining armour hanging around.
I know that it's still not the right time, but when there are so many threads discussing retardedness of certain abilities of the Paladin class, then there may be one more.
I think we should pay some attention to his spell casting abilities. I think it certainly isn't nice to hear jokes that a paladinis actually a cleric who's antenna to gods was misalligned by a glancing blow during combat training and so he was given a sword and sent to do good somewhere else (which would explain the nonexistence of paladins with different allignment, their deities lacked the compassion needed to do this and kicked them out without the shiny sword).
Enough fun
The paladin in it's basic kit is equipped with a modest amount of spells for as long as I can remember (not THAT long actually), But I think that you'd agree with me that I won't be far from truth if I say about his spells that they came too late, and they did too little to help (not all).
I already suggested elsewhere that a Paladin should be able to cast his spells (those with standard action casting time) as a swift action, so that he can boost himself while swinging sword, which would definitely improve his performance in combat. The other thing I'd like to have a look upon would be paladin's spell list.
The Panadin starts to receive his spells at level 4 and I think it's safe to assume that under most circumstances he won't even receive 2 bonus spells from his wisdom (there are other, more pressing needs for high ability scores for paladins). So I think that there won't be any protests if I include some more powerful spells from cleric list of appropriate level (power level, not spell or class level) and make it more oriented toward fighting evil.
1st-level paladin spells
Useful (I can see Paladin having these prepared often)
Bless, Detect Poison, Divine Favor, Magic weapon, Protection from Chaos/Evil
Use-impaired (Not ofthen memorized. Some are on list just to allow the paladin to use appropriate magic items... those who don't want paladin to cast spells probably overlook this use)
Bless Water, Create Water (I'd leave these for Cleric, but create water may be there to make up for usually poor survival skill)
Cure Light Wounds (With all the healing paladin gets from other sources...)
Detect Undead (Is it really worth the effort? You have Detect Evil and one or two slots of this level for most of your career, so I doubt that anyone would actually take this)
Read Magic (I'm still not sure whether this shouldn't be left out anyway. I don't like to see everyone casting whatever he wants with scroll at hand, but sometimes the resurrection is far, far away)
Lesser Restoration (Prepared only after the need arises)
Useless
Endure Elements (I think that most paladins would rely on their superior saves and proper clothing to handle the weather)
Resistance, Virtue (Even if the paladin had the scrolls I doubt that he'd bother to use it)
Possible Additions (Not tested or anything...)
Aid, Calm Emotions, Entropic Shield, Gentle Repose, Light, Mending, Shield of Faith
2nd-level paladin spells
Useful
Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Resist Energy, Shield Other
Use-impaired
Owl's Wisdom (The only real bonus is the increase of will save, which can be had through Divine Grace boosted by Eagle's Splendor as well. Paladin spells rarely need to have higher save DCs)
Remove Paralysis (Prepared when needed, I doubt that most Paladins have a condition specific spell like this ready)
Undetectable Alignment (Too sophisticated to be in general use)
Zone of Truth (Too sophisticated to be in general use, I'm not sure whether this shouldn't be left to Clerics)
Possible Additions
Align weapon, Cure Medium Wounds, Make Whole, Magic Vestment
3rd-level paladin spells
Useful
Daylight, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Prayer
Use-impaired
Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse (Prepared when needed, I doubt that most Paladins have a condition specific spell like this ready)
Useless
Cure Medium Wounds (should be moved to 2nd level)
Heal Mount (Could be replaced with other healing)
Possible Additions
Cure Serious Wounds, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Sending, Spell Immunity, Water Breathing/Water Walk
4th-level paladin spells
Useful
Break Enchntment, Death Ward, Dispel Chaos/Evil, Holy Sword
Use-impaired
Mark of Justice (Not a combat spell = not prepred at all times)
Neutralize Poison (Use specific)
Restoration (not needed that often and it could be lower level or placed within LoH uses)
Useless
Cure Serious Wounds (should be moved to 3rd level)
Possible Additions
Cure Critical Wounds, Disrupting Weapon, Raise Dead, Righteous Might, Spell Resistance, True Seeing
Zmar I really like where you are going with the spell changes and I would have to say that I agree with you. The paladin spells are truly not that useful. I am almost of the mindset to say get rid of them completely and give him some more "spell like abilities" or something along those lines. Maybe when you gain a level that would give you a new spell you just pick one and make it a permanent effect or something instead of casting spells like a cleric. But you are definitely right there should be some mixing and matching with the cleric spells and some shifting in the spell levels required.
Also dont forget that in PF they changed a paladins spell attribute to Charisma instead of Wisdom. This is a very good change and in the current state will allow for a lot more bonus spells!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One thing that I think would go a long way to helping the paladin spell list (and ranger spell list for that matter), is to actually give them 0 level spells. Splitting out the zero level spells from their 1st level spell list will actually allow paladins and rangers to use them without feeling like a chump, since the 1st level spells on their list that are 1st level for other casters are so much better.
It would be great to be a paladin that could use stabilize, create water, or detect magic, without having to give up cure light wounds, shield of faith, etc.
I'd like to point out, that those spells I tagged as use impaired are not to be removed, I just stated that they won't see much use as prepared spells. They are important just by being on the list and thus allowing the Pladin to use magic items that would otherwise require a Use Magic Item skill while they are also efficiently limiting the choice of items available (nothing like a rogue waving a wand of fireballs).
A non spellcasting paladin may need to be given additional skill points and access to Use Magic Device skill to make up for his loss of spellcasting as well, for it aren't paladin's spell slots that would save the day with cures, restorations and removals, but his storage of wands and scrolls certainly would. The Mark of Justice is certainly a Paladin spell, but I think it's also a spell meant to be cast primarily from scrolls (and it's also a good candidate for convertion to one of those yummy incantions introduced in Unearhed Arcana book).
I only removed truly useless spells and gave the paladin access to full spectrum of cure spells (Cure Crtical wounds was left out before). I think that if we are truly reordering the spell list than it should be done with an eye kept on thematics. With 4 levels of spellls to work with we may assign spells like this:
Paladin spell level = Group buffs and healing of the same level + Self buffs of spell level + 1 (+ some delicacies left for level 4 to crown the spell progression)
We first need to settle upon purpose of various aspects of Paladin's spellcasting ability. I'd say that spells per day are there for combat use, giving the Paladin the same advantage as the fighter gets from his feats and the barbarian gets from rage powers (bond and other combat oriented features need to be considered as well). The spell list however, is what governs paladin's use of magic items. An aspect that shouldn't be overlooked IMHO.
And yes, the 0 level spells would be neat, but I'm not sure what the backward compatibility monster would say about that.
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1st-level paladin spells
Useful (I can see Paladin having these prepared often)
Magic Weapon
I would disagree with this one. At 4th level, the paladin is fairly likely to have a +1 weapon already; at 5th, they have their divine bond weapon and magic weapon becomes basically useless. I'd give you "Use-impaired," maybe, but in general magic weapon is weak sauce for paladins.
I would agree that the primary purpose of the paladin's spell slots should be to enhance their fighting prowess. Any divine spells that improve combat ability should be on their spell list, and it would be worth it to me to see some additional unique paladin spells and/or spells of higher levels dropped a level for paladins in order to boost them even further.
Another issue is caster level. The half caster level thing tends to reduce durations to the point of uselessness - especially any spell whose duration is calculated in rounds becomes a wasted action by the time the paladin can actually cast it. I would be happy to see paladin spells shifted to swift actions, but I would be equally happy to see paladins get full caster levels as well.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another issue is caster level. The half caster level thing tends to reduce durations to the point of uselessness - especially any spell whose duration is calculated in rounds becomes a wasted action by the time the paladin can actually cast it. I would be happy to see paladin spells shifted to swift actions, but I would be equally happy to see paladins get full caster levels as well.
A compromise on caster level would be to use Paladin level minus 2, so that at 4th level, they still are a 2nd level caster, and they stay behind the caster level of a cleric or other full caster, but they progress quicker.
At the time the paladin may have a +1 sword, but not necessarily any other magic weapon, so if he needs a magic weapon to get through damage reduction... I agree that usefullness of this spells drops dramatically after certain level.
Spontaneous casting sounds interesting, but I think that Paladin still enjoys some flexibility from being able to prepare different spells. Spontaneous spell conversion however (just like cleric with cure spells)...
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At the time the paladin may have a +1 sword, but not necessarily any other magic weapon, so if he needs a magic weapon to get through damage reduction... I agree that usefullness of this spells drops dramatically after certain level.
Spontaneous casting sounds interesting, but I think that Paladin still enjoys some flexibility from being able to prepare different spells. Spontaneous spell conversion however (just like cleric with cure spells)...
Sorry I'm a purist, charisma caster gotta be spontaneous.
Sorry I'm a purist, charisma caster gotta be spontaneous.At the time the paladin may have a +1 sword, but not necessarily any other magic weapon, so if he needs a magic weapon to get through damage reduction... I agree that usefullness of this spells drops dramatically after certain level.
Spontaneous casting sounds interesting, but I think that Paladin still enjoys some flexibility from being able to prepare different spells. Spontaneous spell conversion however (just like cleric with cure spells)...
what exactly is spontaneous casting?
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what exactly is spontaneous casting?Sorry I'm a purist, charisma caster gotta be spontaneous.At the time the paladin may have a +1 sword, but not necessarily any other magic weapon, so if he needs a magic weapon to get through damage reduction... I agree that usefullness of this spells drops dramatically after certain level.
Spontaneous casting sounds interesting, but I think that Paladin still enjoys some flexibility from being able to prepare different spells. Spontaneous spell conversion however (just like cleric with cure spells)...
Spontaneous casting is not having to prepare spells in advance to cast them. Sorcerers, Favored Souls, and anything WotC made after a while because they stopped caring cast spontaneously.
Spontaneous casting is fine, but we'd need to make the spells known category sufficiently large to allow some flexibility. Some of the spells would be almost never learned this way, which is a waste of potential IMO.
I didn't mind having wisdom for spellcasting, since the plaladin needs only 14 wisdom to cast everything on his list (12 is sufficient actually with periapth of wisdom + 2 solving the rest of trouble later), and that doesn't hurt that much (With buffs and utility spells he rarely needed to call upon his spell DCs to use his spells effectively). A paladin should keep the elite feeling the class had in older editions and have the high overall ability requirements. Having some options for non-spellcasting paladins however wouldn't be bad.
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Spontaneous casting is fine, but we'd need to make the spells known category sufficiently large to allow some flexibility. Some of the spells would be almost never learned this way, which is a waste of potential IMO.
I didn't mind having wisdom for spellcasting, since the plaladin needs only 14 wisdom to cast everything on his list (12 is sufficient actually with periapth of wisdom + 2 solving the rest of trouble later), and that doesn't hurt that much (With buffs and utility spells he rarely needed to call upon his spell DCs to use his spells effectively). A paladin should keep the elite feeling the class had in older editions and have the high overall ability requirements. Having some options for non-spellcasting paladins however wouldn't be bad.
Oh I didn't intend for him to learn, he should have open access to every spell on his list, like the warmage.
Oh I didn't intend for him to learn, he should have open access to every spell on his list, like the warmage.Spontaneous casting is fine, but we'd need to make the spells known category sufficiently large to allow some flexibility. Some of the spells would be almost never learned this way, which is a waste of potential IMO.
I didn't mind having wisdom for spellcasting, since the plaladin needs only 14 wisdom to cast everything on his list (12 is sufficient actually with periapth of wisdom + 2 solving the rest of trouble later), and that doesn't hurt that much (With buffs and utility spells he rarely needed to call upon his spell DCs to use his spells effectively). A paladin should keep the elite feeling the class had in older editions and have the high overall ability requirements. Having some options for non-spellcasting paladins however wouldn't be bad.
I really like this idea...feels right!
In that case I think we should reduce the spell list a bit... 1-3 self or group boosts + some utility goodies to... say 6-8 per spell level?
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In that case I think we should reduce the spell list a bit... 1-3 self or group boosts + some utility goodies to... say 6-8 per spell level?
Really I was looking through the spell list for the paladin just the other day, you think that it's too much? I mean he has at best like 12 spells per level. when you look at a clerics spell list its 2-3 times the size, heck even with a ton of splat books he still casts so few per day I can't really see an issue.
A paladin should keep the elite feeling the class had in older editions and have the high overall ability requirements.
Then it should be a prestige class. The SRD has an excellent 15-level Prestige Paladin -- which could be Pathfinderized -- and would fit the bill nicely. In one of my 3.5 campaigns, we used the Prestige Paladin, Prestige Ranger, and Prestige Bard in favor of the base classes, and they were a big hit.
A base class isn't "base" if it has a list of prerequisites.