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i see your threadjack and raise you two threadcraps.*wonders if anyone knows he's bluffing...*
Hah! I made my special Sense Motive check. Fork over all your dubloons!
I merely threadjacked ... You, sir, are a threadcrapper!
At least my son plays D&D the right way, with a calculator! Go play baseball or something. ;)
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Hah! I made my special Sense Motive check. Fork over all your dubloons!As entertaining as the banter is you two, you are threadcapping.And threadcrapping as well!
Tarren started it.I merely threadjacked ... You, sir, are a threadcrapper!i see your threadjack and raise you two threadcraps.
*wonders if anyone knows he's bluffing...*
keep this up, bub, and that whole nominating me for VEEP thing, you know, a "heartbeat away from the big boys chair", well, you know ;)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Man, you two! This is a very serious discussion about inter-planar economics and the potential to downsize metagamers by fixing material plane currencies to planar diamonds and you have to come in with your *Beavis and Butthead routine.
Now. Apologize this instant!
*
I almost said "Laurel and Hardy routine". Whose grandfather am I channelling tonight?
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Man, you two! This is a very serious discussion about inter-planar economics and the potential to downsize metagamers by fixing material plane currencies to planar diamonds and you have to come in with your *Beavis and Butthead routine.
Now. Apologize this instant!
*
** spoiler omitted **
he said "butt"...huh..huhuh...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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A solution in the rules for the arbitrary wealth exploits might be to add a time factor to it: if the PCs decide to turn a wall of iron into iron bars in order to sell iron, then there could be a maximum amount of gp they earn per day. After all, they have to melt it all down.
In this way you make it possible for PCs to put their ideas into practice, and you still have a measure of control as DM.A nice system for PCs earning money in business was in DMG II. Perhaps it could serve as inspiration for a new rule.
They did have rules, but I'm not sure how good they were. My beguiler PC in STAP, with lots of appropriate skills and stats, started a 'festhall' business in the town of Farshore, even going so far as to get other PCs to invest. Despite having the deck stacked pretty well, the output of the business was negligible. Not just "not much for our level" but I mean less than 50 gp for a month if memory serves. After a while we just stopped worrying about keeping track of it.
Kind of like the "affiliations" rules - my PC was in the Witch-Wardens, the Dawn Council, but the bennies for affiliations, especially compared to the amount of work and effort in-game to achieve the status points in the affiliation to get anything, were so miniscule that they were likewise pretty much abandoned.
Because no rational creature holding powerful magical items or planar currencies is going to exchange them for gold. They have as much gold as they could possibly want. They can 'virtually' mint more on demand.But that fails the "trope" test of helping the poor by donating money to a church. You're saying that all churches (that are big enough) have infinite money. So why should there be any peasants in the world when the Church of $GOOD_DEITY can provide enough alms for everyone in the universe? You've gone from "D&D world" to "Star Trek replicator world" (which is fine, if that's what you're into, but I don't care for it). Similarly with a "poor kingdom". You're effectively saying that as long as there's one loyal citizen of high enough level, a kingdom's treasury can never run out.
Look, if there were some example in the real world of truly non-convertible currencies, I'd go with the two-tier system. But I just don't see how it can work.
I think the closest that I can come up with for truly non-convertible currencies is credit vs cash. There are people in the world who do not use or accept credit, just like there are people in the world who do not accept cash. The truth is that BANKS are what allow for the conversion between these two mediums, and as anyone who had money in Indymac when it failed this year would tell you these two start looking like non convertible currencies really quick once your bank fails (there is a reason they pay interest, it is not because they are nice guys). Creating some kind of system just makes sense to me. Sure the wealth limit and system created will be arbitrary, but isn't the FDIC's limit pretty arbitrary also. Powerful magic items should be something that money just cannot buy without restricted access, and powerful magic items should not be sold for set sums of money.
Liking or hating this idea really just boils down to personal opinion and I think that having a system like this sounds fun from a game perspective. I wish people would not get so personal in there attacks against each other over strange rule loopholes. They exist and we cope with them using different methods. I just think seeing if they can be reduced or eliminated makes some sense and is worth some effort.
I think the closest that I can come up with for truly non-convertible currencies is credit vs cash. There are people in the world who do not use or accept credit, just like there are people in the world who do not accept cash.
Look, if there were some example in the real world of truly non-convertible currencies, I'd go with the two-tier system. But I just don't see how it can work.
Sure, but suppose person A only accepts cash and person B only has credit. Does that mean that person B can never buy something from person A? Of course not. Person B borrows cash from person C (who does accept credit), then pays A in cash.
Liking or hating this idea really just boils down to personal opinion and I think that having a system like this sounds fun...
Certainly liking this idea boils down to personal opinion. I just don't think it's based on anything credible. And I certainly don't mean that as a personal attack on anyone.
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I don't think that liking or hating this idea boils down to simple personal preference, but there are reasons why one might feel that it isn't necessary.
I agree with Squirrelloid. There is a problem where a DM must be careful in what he gives to the PCs to avoid 'unbalancing' the game. While one possible problem is the 'infinite wealth schemes' which Squirrelloid correctly points out aren't the only 'root cause'...
Imagine, for a moment that I'm a 20th level wizard NPC. The world is a big place. I live in Varisia. I teleport into some big temple or palace in some distant part of the world, cast Scream of the Banshee, then quickly fill my pockets with whatever cash was laying around.
Now, what happens? Presumably I could be quite successful in the short term. If no one has done this in the past there is no reason that the world would 'respond' immediately. Unless people were succeeding on their saves, there would be no witnesses to the tactic for a long time. If I'm capable of planar travel (and I probably am) the only thing to fear is other high level characters. If I don't get myself in trouble, after some amount of time I'll have a lot of gold.
Now, gold itself is pretty useless - it is what I can buy with gold that makes it important. Buying (or improving) a robe of the Archmage is something that I would want, since it actually increases my power. That is the power of gold in D&D. If you come into 500,000 gp you don't buy a castle or an exotic pet - you buy powerful magical weapons and armor.
The proposal here is to say 'you can have as much gold as you choose to acquire'. If a PC wants to be wealthy, they can. If they come into 500,000 gp they can even buy some nice items (but nothing more than 15,000 gp). If they go to a 20th level wizard and offer the 500,000 gp to him, he'll just say 'this doesn't do anything for me'. Since he can use wish to create 25,000 magical items every day, the 500,000 gp isn't a lot of money to him. So, this system proposes to clarify that. The 500,000 gp item can't be purchased for cash. It needs to be traded for with something of value to the seller.
Thus, the wizard will have to think about something that he wants more than a powerful item. If he has a +5 Holy Avenger it won't do him any good - the Paladin would value that item more. But the item is valuable. He won't just give it away. What can the Paladin do for the wizard that will provide the incentive to give away that item?
Not using a system like this is a bad idea. Just using cash is causes problems. If you accidentally give them 500,000 gp you either let them buy items too powerful for the game, you take it away, you 'cheat' them out of it or you can tell them that the gold can buy any 'earthly desire' like a castle or a harem, but that for 'real power' they need to offer something that other powerful people will want.
Because the person that you offer the 500,000 gp to is probably powerful enough to go get that money another way (just as easy, relatively) so it isn't valuable to them.
And the worst aspect of allowing wealth to be converted into powerful magical items is that 'cool things' have to be removed from the game. Walking around on the Elemental Plane of Earth and having gems the size of a person's head is good flavor, until the PCs start taking them. The DM either has to remove it, or 'cheat'. Things taken from the Elemental Plane start 'fading away'? And that only works if it is fast enough that the PCs don't trade it away in the meantime...
So, long story short, I do see a solution like this taking care of a problem that some choose to ignore or handle on their own. I'd prefer the system to take care of it for me so I don't have to worry about it in the future.
Not using a system like this is a bad idea. Just using cash is causes problems. If you accidentally give them 500,000 gp you either let them buy items too powerful for the game, you take it away, you 'cheat' them out of it or you can tell them that the gold can buy any 'earthly desire' like a castle or a harem, but that for 'real power' they need to offer something that other powerful people will want.
How is that any different than "accidentally" giving players 500,000 angel tears? It's exchanging one (fairly arbitrary) economic unit for another.
The only thing difference I really see with the proposed system is that you can have streets paved with gold and an Uncle Scrooge-style money bin full of coins that mean nothing. That's nice, I guess, but I don't really associate those kind of things with D&D. YMMV.
The only thing difference I really see with the proposed system is that you can have streets paved with gold and an Uncle Scrooge-style money bin full of coins that mean nothing. That's nice, I guess, but I don't really associate those kind of things with D&D. YMMV.
I'd like a character to be able to throw big parties to try to gain political influence, or build a stronghold and hire retainers. This was the assumed progression in 1e and "expert" D&D, but it doesn't work anymore -- if you spend money on either of those things, you have to stop adventuring forever because you're behind the power curve, and in any case you become a lame duck ripe for the plucking by the next monster that wanders by. It's absurd that the only options are (1) be a homeless christmas tree, or (2) die.
I'd like a character to be able to throw big parties to try to gain political influence, or build a stronghold and hire retainers. This was the assumed progression in 1e and "expert" D&D, but it doesn't work anymore -- if you spend money on either of those things, you have to stop adventuring forever because you're behind the power curve, and in any case you become a lame duck ripe for the plucking by the next monster that wanders by. It's absurd that the only options are (1) be a homeless christmas tree, or (2) die.
That's why in my campaign, the players would have to fork over X gold pieces, be a bit weaker for a while and then I'd make it up in equipment later.
The two-currency system doesn't seem any more satisfying; either you're still in the range where "money matters" (i.e. you're still trying to afford items in the <15K range), in which case you still have the same problems with being under-equipped, or you're in the range where "money doesn't matter", in which case it's less satisfying to bribe people/build a castle with your own money (since it doesn't involve any sacrifice at all; it's just "flavour text" given away by the DM).
The two-currency system doesn't seem any more satisfying; either you're still in the range where "money matters" (i.e. you're still trying to afford items in the <15K range), in which case you still have the same problems with being under-equipped, or you're in the range where "money doesn't matter", in which case it's less satisfying to bribe people/build a castle with your own money (since it doesn't involve any sacrifice at all; it's just "flavour text" given away by the DM).
And you still have problems with level equivalencies: two independent variables (xp, wealth) and one dependent variable (relative power). Combining magic items into the xp system in some reasonable manner takes care of those problems, and makes it easier to scale encounters for capaigns with higher or lower magic levels.
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Your son is playing D&D wrong. Tell him to play something else.[threadjack]
My son's character earned a lot of gold the old fashioned way. He wanted to use it to start a few businesses. I dag up some rules created by Gary Gygax for running shipping companies, modified them for caravans, and we were off. He started sending caravan routes all over Keoland, ships across the Aerdi sea, etc. There was a chance of loss. Every once in a while, his character would travel with a caravan or ship and have a great adventure. He didn't get rich doing this as he spent it all building roads, temples, and fortresses to protect his people. He had a great time.
[/threadjack]
Would that be Mystara using the Minrothad Guilds or Republic of Darokin Gazzetteer? (Which included rules for running sea and land caravans respectively.)
Or would that be Birthright? (With weak rules for trade but the heart of it was a system for building roads, temples, fortresses and the like to defend your holdings.)Again:
The problem is not that such systems exist, or that they fail to model all the grand intricacies of economics.
The problem is expanding those simplified simulations and expecting them to actually be functional.
They are intended to serve as a casual system of keeping score as part of the backdrop, not to define the entire function of the game.
DeadDMWalking: Read my last post on the subject a page or so back.
The "angels tear" solution DOES NOT ACHIEVE non-convertability.
For that to happen, you need to have INFINITE wealth exploits, otherwise, there is some "exchange value" given that any wealth exploit takes a minimum amount of time (absolute minimum = casting time + other factors), and creates a finite amount of profit, however large that may be. So if you offer your average planar "angel tears" dealer an equivalent or larger amount of gold than could be created by these exploits in the same time it takes to create/gather/earn one "angel tear", then it's a good deal for them. Pretty simply, it's still 'convertable'.
Basically, the rules-as-written aren't broken enough to allow this 'fix' to work.
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Quandary -
I'm not actually advocating angel tears or other planar currency per se. I'm saying that for a powerful individual, gold is not a sufficient motivation. When you deal with powerful people, you should have to find out what they want in order to 'exchange' something of value.
That is what all economies boil down to, right? The exchange of one thing I value for another thing I value more.
The beauty is the thing I have may have no value to me other than the fact that I know someone else wants it.
Try this thought experiment. Imagine that you are the richest person in the world. Let's say that your fortune after inventing a widget and selling off your widget manufacturing corporation is 10x the combined fortunes of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. Let's say that you also have it all in liquid or near liquid form. A big pile of cash - bigger than even Uncle Scrooge's 3.1 Cubic Acres of Cash. That's a lot of money.
Now, let's say someone wants to buy your daughter's hand in marriage. Is there offer of any amount of money going to mean anything to you? What if they wanted to buy your dog? You can buy a dog in the store, but you can't buy YOUR dog in a store. So if someone says 'I'll give you a million dollars for your dog', why would you even consider it? You don't need a million dollars. You have millions of dollars that you have nothing better to do with but to use as furniture. What value does that cash have?
Obviously you could exchange that million dollars for goods and services, but you already have more money than you could convert into goods and services in your lifetime (and probably 10 generations of descendants or more - even if they all have lavish lifestyles). What value does that money have? None.
In a 'wish economy' to steal the term, money has no 'intrisic value' since it is easy to come by. It is 'readily available', to the point of growing on trees. A 20th level character could 'buy' anything that is 'for sale'. So, if the richest person in the world won't part with his beloved dog for any amount of money, you're going to have to find something that he does value. Maybe you can help him meet someone and fall in love. Maybe he would value that.
The 'planar currencies' is a crutch. It could have some value, but the idea is to find a way to buy items that are 'priceless'.
Let's try a more concrete example. Let's say you want to buy the Sistine Chapel. What offer do you make the Pope? How much gold would it take to buy? I think you'll agree that there are things that money cannot buy. Powerful magic items should fall in that category, at least in my opinion. They should be 'available' for some 'exchange', but that exchange should not be 'vulgar coin'.
That's why I favor the "magic items cost xp" approach.
Let's try a more concrete example. Let's say you want to buy the Sistine Chapel. What offer do you make the Pope? How much gold would it take to buy? I think you'll agree that there are things that money cannot buy. Powerful magic items should fall in that category, at least in my opinion. They should be 'available' for some 'exchange', but that exchange should not be 'vulgar coin'.
No one is claiming that every item in the universe is for sale! My claim is this: if there's a person who values both currency A and currency B, then he should be willing to convert A -> B at some exchange rate (and vice versa).
In your example, if the Pope owns the Sistine Chapel and he's willing to sell it in exchange for angel feathers, and Bill Gates is a collector of both money and angel feathers, and I have a lot (maybe a LOT) of money, then I should be able to buy some of Bill's feathers and use them to buy the Chapel from the Pope.
If you want to make magic items practically unpurchaseable for the average slob, you can easily do so; that's what they did with epic magic items -- they add in an arbitrary factor of 10 to the price. But it has nothing to do with astral diamonds, angel tears, etc.
That's why I favor the "magic items cost xp" approach.
I'll be first in line to playtest your point-based version of D&D when it's ready!
EDIT: Have you ever looked at Mutants & Masterminds?
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In a 'wish economy' to steal the term, money has no 'intrisic value' since it is easy to come by. It is 'readily available', to the point of growing on trees. A 20th level character could 'buy' anything that is 'for sale'. So, if the richest person in the world won't part with his beloved dog for any amount of money, you're going to have to find something that he does value. Maybe you can help him meet someone and fall in love. Maybe he would value that.
Some thoughts prompted by the above quote -
Somethings are not for sale no matter the currency.
Changing the currency does not change what is for sale or what is not.
To tell the truth, I think the planar currency just adds a level of complication to the debate. It doesn't really solve any of the problems of what is for sale and what is saleable.
The game has always had a second form of currency as it is in the form of service. How many adventures feature an item the party needs but its not for sale for money. The party has to complete a task to achieve it.
In the end, it still boils down to the DM. The economic rules are basic guidelines. They are not hard and fast rules and the rules themselves acknowledge this by saying things like, "in general a character can sell items for half price." The DM still has to okay every item bought and sold, whether its rope at 1st level or magic weapons at 15th level. Because of this, I think flexible rules are the best so that DMs don't feel obligated to run a certain style of game. Some DMs might not want to run a game in which the planes and a planar currency are the norm while still having high-powered magic items available (though perhaps not for gold).
The 'planar currencies' is a crutch. It could have some value, but the idea is to find a way to buy items that are 'priceless'.
OK, they just don't happen to work as a crutch.
What you're talking about, DeadDMWalking, are basically "unique" items, right? Like Artifacts. Not just >15k gp cost items. And sure, certain beings would be so attached to their possessions that you CAN'T bargain with them, you'd have to kill them or incapacitate them first. Likewise, some beings have no further ambition, so you'd need a special 'in', another opportunity for great role-playing situation.
But the whole concept of "finding a way to buy items that are 'priceless'" by introducing a standard metric, i.e. planar currency, defeats the whole purpose, by making these items no longer 'priceless' (i.e., uniquely valued). I'm all for 'unique' and 'priceless' magic items existing that aren't acquirable for gold, planar currency just doesn't do it... Like Osirion said above, a non-comatose DM is irreplacable.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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The DM still has to okay every item bought and sold, whether its rope at 1st level or magic weapons at 15th level.
Storekeep: Wineskins, check; rope, check; ladders ... Oh! No, sorry we don't have any ladders.
PC: No ladders? What do you mean no ladders??DM: Don't blame me. Ask the storekeep.
PC: Okay. Storekeep, how could you run out of ladders?
Storekeep: That's right, no ladders. Some loophole surfing butthead bought them all to break apart and sell as 10' poles. Sorry.
PC: But that was our last campaign!! How are we going to scale the cliff without a ladder?
DM: ;-)
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Maybe the OP thought that Planar currency was the answer, but I don't think that is the 'only answer'. The idea of souls in gems is cool - but they're not a universal currency. You certainly wouldn't try spending them on Mount Celestia.
But that's the point. When you're talking about powerful beings, favors are currency. So if you have something valued by a powerful outsider it has value since it can be exchanged for a service later. So an angel tear shouldn't be a 'currency', but it could be a 'marker'.
I think that's a great idea.
Of course, if you like having PCs carrying around metric tons of gold coins, that's cool too. Just not for me.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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So an angel tear shouldn't be a 'currency', but it could be a 'marker'.
If Solar tears were a currency, couldn't you just use planar binding to capture some Solars and then make them cry?
...
How would YOU make them cry?
WARNING WARNING POTENTIAL THREADJACK ALERT WARNING WARNING
Hammer, don't make 'em cry!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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You can gate it in. Making a Solar cry is not covered by the rules and the DM is welcome (and probably encouraged) to say 'guys, the reason Solar tears are rare is because Solars almost never cry. You're not going to cause it to happen in 20 rounds.'
Have you seen M.C. Hammer?
Oh come now. That's just weak. New Kids on the Block would be more likely to cause tears.
You've heard the one about the guy who said he could make a horse laugh?
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I've been thinking about this thread and digesting stuff I read through quickly (coming in on page 4 it was hard not to start posting to every post I wanted to respond to).
Let me try to approach this from another angle.
When I'm a player, I don't want to be 'greedy', but the rules encourage it. If I'm given 10,000 gp, and I want to buy an item that costs 100,000 gp, I know that I can bank that money and when we're in a city big enough, I can buy that major item. Very tempting.
But should I save that money? Shouldn't I donate 10% of it to the church (a tithe)? If I'm a cleric, it makes sense. Now, the rules don't 'punish' me for choosing not to tithe. I mean, I am using the money to buy an item to further my diety's objectives in the prime material plane, right?
Since I can take hoarded wealth and buy powerful magical items, there is a disincentive to 'waste' money on frivilous things (like tithing) which have no mechanical benefit (the way a +4 Belt of Ogre's Might would). Now, I think we can all agree that the game is better when the players try to do things that have an effect on the world, right?
I mean if your players buy a house and put some effort into developing that area of the world, you have more interested and engaged players, and you have a ready made plot hook you know your players are going to be interested in. And if you can hook them with a sofa-loveseat combination made from the leather skin of an Abyssal Basilisk (surprisingly soft - I kid you not) for the low cost of 75,000 gp, that is something that a player would be resistant to buying because they know that they can become mechanically 'better' (stronger, faster, smarter, more hp, more AC, more attack and damage bonus) if they purchase a magic item instead.
If powerful magical items aren't available for purchase, no matter how much gold one has, that money can and should be used for other things. That means that a dragon can sit on a hoard of 4 million gold coins - while it could be used to purchase normal material goods (land, cattle, castles, services) it couldn't be used to purchase the most powerful magical items since the people that have those don't need or want money. The probably want some form of power.
So, let's say that there is a Solar that has a Holy Avenger. You can't buy it with gold. What good would that do for the solar? He's going to ask you to do something else to purchase the sword - probably save some souls or smite something particularly nasty and evil. Now good DMs do this all the time. This is the 'bait' for the adventure hook. But how would it be if the players said 'nah, not interested. I just killed the dragon, so I'll just buy the holy avenger in Sigil'.
When the rules put a GP value on an item, while they don't MAKE the DM offer it in his game at that price, I think the game would be better if it advised the DM NOT to offer such items for mere GP.
And it does make more sense from the world perspective. If you have a powerful wizard that has his own demiplane (every desire is accomodated) you can't offer him enough gold to manufacture your magical item. You have to give him something that is better than having his every whim fulfilled by half-illithid halflings (he's a sick bastard) - and that's something that mere gold can't accomplish... Maybe it is a tome he's never been able to acquire... Maybe he needs someone knocked off. Or maybe he wants to purchase something from a Pit Fiend and the Pit Fiend has asked him for 100 souls trapped in a diamond and he'd rather someone else collect them for him.
Whatever the case, an economy beyond gold is great. It frees up gold for story purposes. This doesn't encourage PCs to abuse 'infinite wealth' strategies (since it doesn't make them significantly more powerful) and the money still does have a purpose (PCs will want it for wands of CLW and to buy castles, or equip an army of followers). It just changes the gold from something being hoarded in order to purchase extremely powerful items into a commodity to be exchanged for a more interesting story.
It would be nice if the Players always made such a choice. When possible, I think it is best if the rules encourage the players to do what is fun, not punish them for it. And spending your hard fought loot on anything that doesn't make you more 'competent' at killing things tends to work out that way since your character is more likely to die, and therefore less likely to enjoy that new castle you purchased.
So, without regard to planar currencies, the origial point is one I agree with. Items (after a certain point) should not be available for sale at any price measured in GP. Some 'trade goods' that have an intrisic value in particular planar locations probably could still be used as 'currency', but it has to be based on the services of powerful beings - and therefore based on what those powerful beings would be willing to work for. That can be something as simple as a promise a Solar makes to aid the person who invokes her name while holding an amulet - passed down through generations, it remains potent since the original giver is immortal and will keep their word.
Hope that all makes sense.
Hope that all makes sense.
Yes; it was an extremely long way of saying "I don't like buying and selling magic items", a laudable sentiment.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Making a Solar cry is not covered by the rules and the DM is welcome (and probably encouraged) to say 'guys, the reason Solar tears are rare is because Solars almost never cry. You're not going to cause it to happen in 20 rounds.'
Sorry, had to do it ...
Further, this ultimately supports 'player options are good' because it stops the incentive for DMs to actively try to screw players over who choose actions that lead to arbitrary wealth exploits.
In the end, it all comes down to having the DM do her job.
I've never let my players wander into a Magical Mega Mart and they've never sought one out. If you have players looking for arbitrary wealth exploits they'll figure out a way and changing the currency to angel dust isn't going to help.
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So an angel tear shouldn't be a 'currency', but it could be a 'marker'.If Solar tears were a currency, couldn't you just use planar binding to capture some Solars and then make them cry?
...
How would YOU make them cry?
WARNING WARNING POTENTIAL THREADJACK ALERT WARNING WARNING
you could make them watch "old yeller" over and over again...
Hogarth,
Sorry I do not feel you have personally attacked anyone. It was a just a general complaint more directed at some of the other posters rather than you, I should have broken it out of the quoted post I was responding to.
Personally, I don't like buying and selling powerful magic items either. I guess I would argue that sure you can always find a person C or D to exchange your currency A for currency B, but if that is what is required it gives DMs more flexibility to decide if or when it can happen. DeadDMwalking has really laid out a much better argument than I can do over the benefits of not allowing the more powerful objects to be easily bought or sold for a universal currency. I look at it this way, I play MtG and some kid will try to trade me 80 or 90 cards worth a dollar a piece for a 75 dollar card. Sure from a money standpoint is in my favor and sure if he sold them on ebay over a week or two he could just get the cash and pay me, but the time cost for the conversion is what makes it a trade I would not do. The idea of a universal currency is what really bothers me, though I will admit from a game system standpoint it is much easier to use that a two or three currency system.
You can not PB a Solar. You can gate it in. Making a Solar cry is not covered by the rules and the DM is welcome (and probably encouraged) to say 'guys, the reason Solar tears are rare is because Solars almost never cry. You're not going to cause it to happen in 20 rounds.'
Solars = Chuck Norris? Do their tears also cure cancer?
When the rules put a GP value on an item, while they don't MAKE the DM offer it in his game at that price, I think the game would be better if it advised the DM NOT to offer such items for mere GP.
The problem that everyone is dancing around is that while the DM has complete control of the game's economy, players can do an end run around that economic controls simply by obtaining an Item Creation Feat or two and turning cold, hard cash into magical power. My question is: what would be a good system for creating magical items that doesn't rely on gold or XP?
I've never let my players wander into a Magical Mega Mart and they've never sought one out. If you have players looking for arbitrary wealth exploits they'll figure out a way and changing the currency to angel dust isn't going to help.
Clearly you've never run a Forgotten Realms or Eberron game, then! lol
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When the rules put a GP value on an item, while they don't MAKE the DM offer it in his game at that price, I think the game would be better if it advised the DM NOT to offer such items for mere GP.The problem that everyone is dancing around is that while the DM has complete control of the game's economy, players can do an end run around that economic controls simply by obtaining an Item Creation Feat or two and turning cold, hard cash into magical power. My question is: what would be a good system for creating magical items that doesn't rely on gold or XP?
One thing that I like to do (but seldom do because it requires being prepared and these things usually pop up without allowing me time to prepare in advance) is to require a few items to be used in the construction of magic items. There are some examples of 'items of power' in Unearthed Arcana and there are a few similar type lists in one of my Dragon Magazines, iirc.
Basically, when a player says they want to make something, choose three objects that are required for the construction. They should in some way relate to the difficulty in making the item, should allow a few substitutions if the PCs want to look for that, and be related to what the object actually does.
For example, the PCs want to create a Cloak of Invisibility...
As the DM you let them know that they need an eye of a phantasmal killer, silk of a phase spider and a perfect diamond.
The three things can be made available for purchase, or the PCs could 'hunt', or the DM may decide to include a Phantasmal Killer as an assassin in the next session and the intended victim will happily provide a perfect diamond (set in a valuable ring) as a way of thanking them for saving his life.
If the PCs want to create a Flametongue...
They will need the fiery heart of a salamander, a wisp of smoke from an elder fire elemental, and a piece of an iron golem.
I have not had a problem with PCs breaking the game through Item Creation rules (even without requiring gathering the necessary ingredients). And making a lot of low-level items won't help them buy high level items if high level items are not for sale.
One other point - I think that the rules for NPCs and PCs should almost always be the same. Why can't a PC sell a ring of invisibility for more than 1/2 price? He gives it to an NPC and that NPC has no trouble finding a buyer at full price. What gives? So removing the 'high level items for purchase' can also help remove the inconsistency of not letting PCs get their 'money's worth' when they sell an item.
Quick fix: magic items cost xp equal to their gp value. Make a new ECL table, with xp per ECL equal to xp for character levels + (former gp, now xp) for magic items.
Example: A character with 71,000 xp devoted to classes has a class level of 10th.
Players can pick how many magic items they keep (and thus devote xp to), and how many xp they instead devote to class levels. No matter what ratio they select, their total ECL is based on their total xp.
Now a character's personal power is divorced from his or her wealth entirely, without the need for "angel tears."
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Quick thought on item creation. The price listed for creating an item is representative of the materials needed to create the item - like a salamander heart or bottled dragon's flame.
Now I don't know if this would ever see the inside of the PFRPG rulebook, but a pretty easy houserule would be something like.
When creating an item, the player must roll d100 .
01-50 The ingredients necessary for the creation of the magical item are all available for sale.
51-75 A vital ingredient necessary for the creation of this item is not currently on the market.
76-90 Two vital ingredients necessary for the creation of this item are not currently on the market.
91-99 Three vital ingredients necessary for the creation of this item are not currently on the market.
00 Four vital ingredients necessary for the creation of this item are not currently on the market.
Add to this a series of d100 charts, perhaps itemized by type (fire, cold, arcane, etc), that the player has to roll to see what item he needs to find through questing or the like and item creation becomes a little harder but not impossible.
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Quick thought on item creation. The price listed for creating an item is representative of the materials needed to create the item - like a salamander heart or bottled dragon's flame.
Now I don't know if this would ever see the inside of the PFRPG rulebook, but a pretty easy houserule would be something like.
When creating an item, the player must roll d100 .
01-50 The ingredients necessary for the creation of the magical item are all available for sale.
51-75 A vital ingredient necessary for the creation of this item is not currently on the market.
76-90 Two vital ingredients necessary for the creation of this item are not currently on the market.
91-99 Three vital ingredients necessary for the creation of this item are not currently on the market.
00 Four vital ingredients necessary for the creation of this item are not currently on the market.Add to this a series of d100 charts, perhaps itemized by type (fire, cold, arcane, etc), that the player has to roll to see what item he needs to find through questing or the like and item creation becomes a little harder but not impossible.
I do something similar when PCs come into a town and look to buy a specific magic item that falls under the towns gp limit. I use a base percentage based plus +1% per 1000gp of the towns gp limit (minimum 0%). I modify it based on the item type, for example scrolls and potions start at 50%, weapons and armor at 25%, wondrous items at 10%, and all other items at 0%. It's a quick way to come up with a shop without having to plan out an inventory ahead of time. Special orders can always be acquired, but there is a surcharge equal to 100%-the percent of finding the item. The minimum time to acquire a special request item is 1 day per 1000gp of the base price (minimum 1 day). PCs can also accept a second surcharge of the same amount to acquire an item up to 150% of the towns gp limit.
As long as Action Points are legit, I'm in too!
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You know, I'm surprised some third party hasn't done something along these lines already. Did I miss it or is there an opening here for a great little book?I'm in.
...
What are we doing?
I think we're making a "Big Book o' D&D Economics".
My vote is we call it "Markets and Mezzanines".
can we subtitle it : "a treatsie on the effect of solar tears on international shipping and yeast harvesting - or: how 'old yeller' bought my yacht"?