Well, the problem with paladin is that his advantage over the warrior were his spells, saves and auras, which should have been roughly equal with the feats the fighter gets. The spells however take too long to cast. Fighting classes need to be ready for battle NOW, not after four or so rounds of boosting, which made the spells somewhat less appealing. That's why I'd go for faster casting time (swift is fine with me).
The same could go for ranger (his spells are also mostly self boosts)...
Well, the problem with paladin is that his advantage over the warrior were his spells, saves and auras, which should have been roughly equal with the feats the fighter gets. The spells however take too long to cast. Fighting classes need to be ready for battle NOW, not after four or so rounds of boosting, which made the spells somewhat less appealing. That's why I'd go for faster casting time (swift is fine with me).
The same could go for ranger (his spells are also mostly self boosts)...
I will be playing in a playtest for the beta rules and after reading a through a couple of the paladin posts going on on the boards and looking over the classes, I don't have a problem with most of the class as written for the beta. I do think that LOH seems a bit week, especially at low levels but a simple fix would be to just add a Paladins Charisma bonus to the healing for each use. This would help the low levels and not significantly affect the higher levels when they gain other more powerful abilities. Detect Evil seems fine to me as is but that seems to be just a matter of opinion.
Smite evil could probably be changed, but I believe that it should still retain its single attack mechanics to keep it backwards compatible with other 3.5 sourcebooks. Perhaps an additional damage boost could be applied without changing the SE ability.In Monte Cooks BOXM, he has a class ability that can be taken as a feat called Godhammer. This feat grants a +1 to damage and an additional +1 per 3 levels on the first attack of each round. Perhaps by changing the damage so that it applied to only evil creatures and granting the ability as a permanent class ability it would strengthen the class slightly. Thoughts?
Well, making the smite into an always hitting attack would also make it more interesting even without extra damage.
It might be a fix here. But in my true20 games I make smite enemy a form of favored enemy feat. Same mechanics. Making it limitless but only against evil. So far so good. Hasn't seemed over powered. Cuz not every opponent is evil. No more than every encounter is an orc for the ranger either (his favored).
Dang, looking it over, the Pathfinder paladin is pretty lackluster. In fact, it's about as inspiring as a limp dishrag. Too bad, since I was hoping to be able to run a one-book game. *Sigh*I've...got to agree, here. I play a combat-focused paladin, and he's often shunted to the "spare combat medic" role, while the "big boys" go in and deal out damage against the evil black knight. And, once my smites run out, my combat ability is fairly shot for the day, the black knight isn't dead yet, and now the "real" fighters are just more effective than I am. At this point, I start tanking and using a CMW wand to keep them alive.
I'd rather be smiting the guy. :(
I was happy to see the mount alternative, yet many of the added abilities focused on healing, which the paladin already had quite some ability to do, between LoH, Remove Disease, and spells. I don't mind these, I just would have preferred more "lay down the smack" on evil.
I'll also give a nod to the barbarian, here, who received Powerful Blow: add their class level to the damage of a single hit. With rage giving them a +2 to hit already, this is very similar to a paladin with a 14 Cha (+2 to hit) using her smite for the day (+dmg equal to class level).
But the barbarian's works against any opponent. It might cost 4 points to do, but for raw numbers, it's a little too similar for comfort and covers a much wider range of opponents where he adds his class level as damage.
Paladin needs some love, folks. I love the RP of the class. But, damn.
They need some love.
Totally agree with you, that is what paladins are supposed to do! When there is evil to fight, we are the guys for the job! (or should be, but we are not!)
It might be a fix here. But in my true20 games I make smite enemy a form of favored enemy feat. Same mechanics. Making it limitless but only against evil. So far so good. Hasn't seemed over powered. Cuz not every opponent is evil. No more than every encounter is an orc for the ranger either (his favored).
This is very similar to my suggestion of smite always being on with +Char to hit and + half your paladin level to damage.....seems like the perfect fix to me!
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Okay so we finally had a chance to put my character through his paces. My character bundled up the captive goblin and we got to town plagued by banditry. Detect evil great for roleplaying, if everyone you meet is evil. In this town my detecto sight garnered nothing so even though I can detect evil there was no evil to detect. It did help me to become convinced that the bandits are actually under some kind of magical compulsion for non-evil characters so clearly devoted as they are to the cause of banditry something has to be up. The problem is that there are no spellcasters in this town so we have no way to be sure. My lay on hands saw a lot more use though, after a confrontation with a group of bandits who thought to simply take us with superior # I managed to cut down our out of commision time for healing from 6 days to three. Out of combat I always use my healing hands as part of bandaging people up. I've only once used it obtusely and that was when I was locked in a room with an unconscious man, I healed him in his sleep without bandages, but everyone in town just thinks I'm a great healer.
In combat was more of the same. when bandits attacked we were always outnumbered by a good 3-1 ratio. this meant that wasting time detecting was a round lost that my ally (we are a two player game) got surrounded. so no detect. 2 hitpoints still not worth ever trying to use, I couldn't even try to be defensive while healing because taking total defense is a full round action and the -4, +2 has to be done as part of an attack, so no healing ever. And smite, In four combats, on four different days, I got off a whoping 1 smite. one combat I never used it for holding it for the leader who ran before i could get to him. another I missed, and the one time I hit the extra damage did make a difference in that I dropped the guy where if I hadn't have smited, the last fight was over before I had a chance to smite. Anyways in one combat I did try to detect just to see if evil was in the enemies and I found out that there was evil, unfortunatly the evil character got taken down before I could smite (the DM told me who it was afterwards) and so it was a waste of an action.
So paladin lvl two, roleplay, yes it's fun but not worth the feeling like a sword swinging lump in combat. I was rolling hits, but I just don't feel like a paladin in combat, it's very offputting and all I can do is try to imagine how cool i'll be once any of my combat abilities come into play. till then I'll just play my character like the NPC warrior he is in combat. oh yeah, my saves haven't come up yet in combat so far the only spell my character has been hit with is magic missile. The other player has needed saves, I just haven't.
Just thought I would add to this discussion with some changes I did to the paladin for my games. These have been play tested and so far have worked really well.
Detect Evil: Is per normal rules until level 6. At this level I do allow the Detect Evil to be a swift action and one extra function. When used against a single target the Paladin learns everything as if he had concentrated for 3 rounds. This has really helped out in and out of combat and so far has been pretty balanced.
Smite Evil: The big ability of the class as I see it. I did change this to be per encounter and require 2 minutes of prayer/meditation to get back. Its a standard action so you can only get one attack/smite off a round and for this attack all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful(so every threat is a critical hit). The extra damage per paladin level was changed to be Holy Divine damage so at least it would always get through DR of a monster. The final change that has really helped is that the attack roll is done with two d20's instead of one and the highest attack roll is taken. I did remove the Cha bonus to hit, but you could get it back by use of a new feat. The 2d20 attack method has highly increased the chance of a successful hit and really gives the ability a unique flavor. Several players have commented on how it comes across as a divine chance increase. Otherwise if the smite misses its used up until the paladin prays/meditates for 2 minutes.
Holy Weapon: This is a new feature, but is similar to what others have mentioned about a always on smite evil ability. Starting at level 2 any weapon a paladin uses is imbued with a spark of holy power. The paladin gains a bonus damage of +1 holy damage when striking a evil creature. It increases to +2 at level 8th level and +3 at 14th level. This ability also sort of makes Detect Evil in combat not needed as soon as you hit a target you get what I call a flash of holy power and you know the target is evil. So it actually serves two good abilities for a paladin. The first is extra damage that again will always get at least 1 point of damage past DR. The second is that you can easily figure out who is evil and who is not simply by hitting a target.
The roleplaying concept behind a paladin is great, but the mechanics are pretty weak. If anyone is interested in the full writeup on my paladin they can see it HERE. So far I have actually had 3 different players use my new Paladin class and really enjoy themselves. I allow lots of additional books including PHB2 and Book of 9 swords(some changes like maneuvers are only once per encounter). Even with these other classes the Paladin, with the above changes, has been fun to play and see players actually smiting targets in combat. Even as the DM it was nice to see the Paladin do paladin stuff in combat and not just be a warrior that could use a Wand of CLW.
From my experiance with Paladins, I can see the beta rules really help out the class. Not much has really changed and the changes that were made are vast improvements. They receive better (and more) auras to which they share with party memebers. Their spells now rely on the Paladin's best ability score. They gain 2 additional smite attempts (not much but it's better than 5). Their lay on hands feature actually does something other than restore hp (the additional effects allow a paladin to prepare more combat oriented spells). Because channeling works differently now, the paladin can heal allies with that ability. All in all, much more useful than the original.
My only problem with the class is it's Divine Bond ability at 5th level. Not that I don't think either way (special mount or imbued weapon) is bad, but for the life of me, I would never replace my Charging Smite ability (Player's Handbook 2). It's just too useful in any scenario.
Oh and BTW, you can get around rounds of spellcasting by taking the Battle Blessing feat featured in Complete Champion. Spells I'd suggest would be-
1st- divine sacrifice, lesser restoration, rhino's rush
2nd- knight’s move, remove paralysis, strength of stone
3rd- diamond steel, find the gap, righteous fury
4th- draconic might, mark of justice, sacred haven
Okay so we finally had a chance to put my character through his paces. My character bundled up the captive goblin and we got to town plagued by banditry. Detect evil great for roleplaying, if everyone you meet is evil. In this town my detecto sight garnered nothing so even though I can detect evil there was no evil to detect. It did help me to become convinced that the bandits are actually under some kind of magical compulsion for non-evil characters so clearly devoted as they are to the cause of banditry something has to be up. The problem is that there are no spellcasters in this town so we have no way to be sure. My lay on hands saw a lot more use though, after a confrontation with a group of bandits who thought to simply take us with superior # I managed to cut down our out of commision time for healing from 6 days to three. Out of combat I always use my healing hands as part of bandaging people up. I've only once used it obtusely and that was when I was locked in a room with an unconscious man, I healed him in his sleep without bandages, but everyone in town just thinks I'm a great healer.
In combat was more of the same. when bandits attacked we were always outnumbered by a good 3-1 ratio. this meant that wasting time detecting was a round lost that my ally (we are a two player game) got surrounded. so no detect. 2 hitpoints still not worth ever trying to use, I couldn't even try to be defensive while healing because taking total defense is a full round action and the -4, +2 has to be done as part of an attack, so no healing ever. And smite, In four combats, on four different days, I got off a whoping 1 smite. one combat I never used it for holding it for the leader who ran before i could get to him. another I missed, and the one time I hit the extra damage did make a difference in that I dropped the guy where if I hadn't have smited, the last fight was over before I had a chance to smite. Anyways in one combat I did try to detect just to see if evil was in the enemies and I found out that there was...
I still contest that the problem with smite is something that should be fixed with the always on mechanic. It is a shame that we have to RP like paladins but fight like fighters (just not as good as they do! even when facing evil! :(
Just thought I would add to this discussion with some changes I did to the paladin for my games. These have been play tested and so far have worked really well.
Detect Evil: Is per normal rules until level 6. At this level I do allow the Detect Evil to be a swift action and one extra function. When used against a single target the Paladin learns everything as if he had concentrated for 3 rounds. This has really helped out in and out of combat and so far has been pretty balanced.
Smite Evil: The big ability of the class as I see it. I did change this to be per encounter and require 2 minutes of prayer/meditation to get back. Its a standard action so you can only get one attack/smite off a round and for this attack all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful(so every threat is a critical hit). The extra damage per paladin level was changed to be Holy Divine damage so at least it would always get through DR of a monster. The final change that has really helped is that the attack roll is done with two d20's instead of one and the highest attack roll is taken. I did remove the Cha bonus to hit, but you could get it back by use of a new feat. The 2d20 attack method has highly increased the chance of a successful hit and really gives the ability a unique flavor. Several players have commented on how it comes across as a divine chance increase. Otherwise if the smite misses its used up until the paladin prays/meditates for 2 minutes.
Holy Weapon: This is a new feature, but is similar to what others have mentioned about a always on smite evil ability. Starting at level 2 any weapon a paladin uses is imbued with a spark of holy power. The paladin gains a bonus damage of +1 holy damage when striking a evil creature. It increases to +2 at level 8th level and +3 at 14th level. This ability also sort of makes Detect Evil in combat not needed as soon as you hit a target you get what I call a flash of holy power and you know the target is evil. So it...
It sounds like you have made some interesting changes and I like where you are taking it. But wouldnt it be easier to simply make it always on +Char to hit and + half paladin level to damage? It seems like you are stepping in the right directions but you have a LOT of rules. Either way what you have done is an improvement....something needs to be done with smite! It is the BIG ability of paladins, the defining ability!
From my experiance with Paladins, I can see the beta rules really help out the class. Not much has really changed and the changes that were made are vast improvements. They receive better (and more) auras to which they share with party memebers. Their spells now rely on the Paladin's best ability score. They gain 2 additional smite attempts (not much but it's better than 5). Their lay on hands feature actually does something other than restore hp (the additional effects allow a paladin to prepare more combat oriented spells). Because channeling works differently now, the paladin can heal allies with that ability. All in all, much more useful than the original.
My only problem with the class is it's Divine Bond ability at 5th level. Not that I don't think either way (special mount or imbued weapon) is bad, but for the life of me, I would never replace my Charging Smite ability (Player's Handbook 2). It's just too useful in any scenario.
Oh and BTW, you can get around rounds of spellcasting by taking the Battle Blessing feat featured in Complete Champion. Spells I'd suggest would be-
1st- divine sacrifice, lesser restoration, rhino's rush
2nd- knight’s move, remove paralysis, strength of stone
3rd- diamond steel, find the gap, righteous fury
4th- draconic might, mark of justice, sacred haven
Problem here is not every group uses books outside the core. We currently ONLY use the DMG, PHB, and MM. Thats it, no outside sources. And when PF comes out it will be more of the same. So the class should be competent from JUST what is in the core. I am not saying that the other stuff isnt good (i wish I could us it) but it should not take another book to make the paladin appealing.
You are right, many of the changes are fore the better...but the paladin is supposed to be a HOLY WARRIOR, not an apprentice cleric. We should fight EVIL as good as fighters fight everything, and be someone that helps out with a little healing when the cleric is out of spells, busy, or getting his head bashed in because he is not as good in a fight. Fixing smite evil is how we can achieve this.
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and I still contend that an always on mechanic throws balance of older splat books out of whack and therefore breaks backwards compatability. I understand that it works great for core only games but the solution needs to be something that works great for core only and still works with the splats. Keep in mind with an always on smite I can then choose each round to trip or bullrush as well as do full damage, every round, on top of my additional damage and to hit.
And I agree there have been improvements made to the class. That doesn't change that over 2 sessions and 4 combats I have used smite once, not used lay on hands, not used my save boosts, and my detect evil was used once to no effect, does that sound very paladiny to you?
I could have roleplayed a commoner class character to the same effect as my paladin so the roleplaying aspect isn't kicking in to make me feel like a paladin yet except in out of combat wound tending, even then I'm not impressed.
Problem here is not every group uses books outside the core. We currently ONLY use the DMG, PHB, and MM. Thats it, no outside sources. And when PF comes out it will be more of the same. So the class should be competent from JUST what is in the core. I am not saying that the other stuff isnt good (i wish I could us it) but it should not take another book to make the paladin appealing.You are right, many of the changes are fore the better...but the paladin is supposed to be a HOLY WARRIOR, not an apprentice cleric. We should fight EVIL as good as fighters fight everything, and be someone that helps out with a little healing when the cleric is out of...
Very true. Core paladins were pretty much shoe-horned into the cavalier build with the options given in the PHB. While a cavalier can be quite powerful, again terrain plays an important role and can limit one of the classe's main features. If a paladin is stuck with core, i'd probably still take Special Mount rather than the imbued weapon IF the DM was willing to let me exchange my mounts for better ones at higher levels. In the DMG, it lists a way for paladins to gain more poweful creatures to serve as mounts (ie. Celestial Dire Lion at level 10) and if that's cool, i'm all for it.
and I still contend that an always on mechanic throws balance of older splat books out of whack and therefore breaks backwards compatability. I understand that it works great for core only games but the solution needs to be something that works great for core only and still works with the splats. Keep in mind with an always on smite I can then choose each round to trip or bullrush as well as do full damage, every round, on top of my additional damage and to hit.
And I agree there have been improvements made to the class. That doesn't change that over 2 sessions and 4 combats I have used smite once, not used lay on hands, not used my save boosts, and my detect evil was used once to no effect, does that sound very paladiny to you?
I could have roleplayed a commoner class character to the same effect as my paladin so the roleplaying aspect isn't kicking in to make me feel like a paladin yet except in out of combat wound tending, even then I'm not impressed.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about HOW to fix SE. But I think at least we can agree that it does need a boost, something significant.
As for all the other abilities, I understand what you are saying about not really feeling different. I think part of what makes you set apart is your code of conduct. Your DM should play that up and it should be a challenge to play a paladin. It should be harder for anyone playing a paladin to get through a game. This is a great thing for RPing, but as ive said before, should be balanced out with things that are significant. I dont want to be a bland fighter that does "combat" stuff well in any situation. I want to be a Paladin who is survivable in any situation but truly shines when fighting evil...in all areas, damage, survivability, utility...everything. I dont want to be the BEST at all of those things, just respectable. At this point it is awful to watch everyone else do it better than you do, when that is supposed to be your specific area of specialization.
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Okay so we finally had a chance to put my character through his paces.
I have to say that this is exactly my experience with my low-level paladin - we're about to hit 5th at the next game (Which will make me a 4th level paladin since I have 1 level of fighter for the purpose of gaining Tower Shield Prof) - so we'll see how things change.
I have a feeling it will be about level 8 when I really notice a difference.
Right now, I completely agree with you LastKnight.
The paladin has less damage output capability than a rogue, cannot buff himself nearly as good as a cleric.
As for the warrior types, the ranger gets bonus feats to make his fighting style better, due to needing a good charisma, the paladin will have less strength typically than a Barb and Fighter who can also rage for several rounds, or get many bonus feats and weapon training to further seperate the ability to hit their opponents - whereas the only comparable offense the paladin gets is the Smite Evil - that is lost if it misses and at this point gets it for like 2 attacks a day - vs the ever-present weapon training and feats, or the duration of rounds of a barbarians rage.
To break it down with numbers:
4th level to 4th level
The fighter and Barbarian will probably have 4 pts higher in Str, the barb can rage making the bonus to 8 pts higher. The fighter will most likely have Weapon Focus, and weapon training making both classes have a +4 better to hit than the paladin and a difference of 6 pts of damage from the barb (2 handed weapon) or even more with power attack since that +4 better to hit will actually allow for its use. The fighter would have a bonus +5 to damage due to weapon spec by 4th level (+7 w/ 2 handed) and again allow for power attack use.
The ranger/archer would have point blank shot and a good DEX both probably affording a difference of about +3 to attacks and +1 to damage (when within 30 ft). And with his free Rapid Shot available to him, he'll potentially hit twice with his good dex from range doing twice the damage.
Meanwhile the paladin can make 2 attacks a day that will add about +3 to hit, and +4 to damage IF it hits, and IF it's an evil creature.
I conceded to LastKnights point that making Smite Evil omnipresent or a lengthy duration would make certain splat book feats be overwhelming (to which I persoanlly wouldn't be affected by it since I do not use such sources); and in all honesty, i don't want Smite Evil to always be on - I like the idea of singling out a target (as I suggested earlier) and making it marked by the paladin as a called-out foe, and/or making smites simply more plentiful and for sure not wasted if an attack is missed.
I was speaking to a friend of mine the other day who has adopted 4e as his engine where he lives (I have yet to look into it) and when i made conversation with him about my suggestion of a paladin "marking his target" with a smite evil, (that I suggested a couple weeks ago here on this thread), he mentioned that he really liked the idea - and then showed me in his 4E PHB that that is the exact same terminology and method that they use there - very strange. Pure coincidence. Its not necessarily a new idea - I got the idea from some prestige class (I can't remember which) that makes such "challenges" against a single foe.
Robert
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A really good assesment
Okay we are shortchanging the discussion a little, the paladin does get some very good passive abilities that enable him to stand in many instances, my saves are good, I have a +6, +3, +6 which will come in handy when I need to make a save. The problem with that is that at low levels this doesn't come into play as often as mid-high level play. And at mid-high level a paladin actually starts to balance out. but these low levels my good saves haven't come into play, and I've been in enough combat to know that none of my other abilities are coming into play either.
Even if I'm able to keep my smite on a miss that doesn't change the fact that after one successful use I'm the guy saying "dudes we need to rest" when the dang wizard is saying "lets go get the rest of them".
I think that the best way to fix the class would be to
A)allow the paladin to detect as a swift action, and concentrate as a move equivalent. that way he can at least detect evil and wait the three rounds without loosing an attack action every single round. This keeps the balance of the ability without loosing it to the fact that no-one is going to spend three actions trying to find out who's evil, since that's usually half the combat, heck I might even use it as a standard action if I could concentrate as a move action.
B)lay on hands needs to be able to dump a # of uses = to cha mod in one shot so that you can get some healing in combat.
C) smites = per day + cha mod. no loss on a miss, but is lost if used on a non-evil creature. I can't stress enough how badly this is needed to make the low level paladin on par with the rest of the now pathfinder classes.
As far as I can see, this maintains backwards compatability while expanding the class to actually fulfill it's role at all levels. If someone can show me a way in which this breaks backwards compatability or overpowers the class please let me know.
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I have to say that this is exactly my experience with my low-level paladin - we're about to hit 5th at the next game (Which will make me a 4th level paladin since I have 1 level of fighter for the purpose of gaining Tower Shield Prof) - so we'll see how things change.
See, I really don't want to have to multiclass my paladin to be effective at all, but if I took one level of fighter at my next level up I would get two feats (3rd level + fighter bonus) I could then get power critical which as it stands will take me till level 7 to get and then focus all on my paladin class and take more spellcasting and assistance feats since that is where my characters strength would lie. Since my character feels so wasted at these lower levels its really hard to fight off all the advantages that would come with multiclassing.
I may be under a misunderstanding but I thought one of the goals of the pathfinder rpg is to make the classes interesting enough that you can take them from 1-20 without feeling the need to multiclass or PrC out. As it stands for my character it has failed in this goal since the only thing keeping me from multiclassing is the hope that these playtest reports will lead to changes. If they aren't changed with the final, I'll have to continue to houserule the crap out of the paladin so if my players want to play one, they actually enjoy it.
And that's not to say I don't enjoy the roleplay aspects of the class, I do. But I've always enjoyed rping my characters, so far I had a lot more fun with my level 2 wizard than with my level 2 paladin, and I actually felt like a wizard.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Someone upthread mentioned smite evil as = marking and that's an interesting idea. Maybe leave SE as is, but have it last for the duration of a combat. That is, I declare SE vs. a particular target, and if it's evil then I get SE as long as the combat lasts. I don't get SE vs. any other opponents.
This wouldn't really help much at lower levels, alas, cuz most foes are going down in a few hits, but would be a major boost at higher levels vs BBEGs.
I dunno, just an idea....
As for the warrior types, the ranger gets bonus feats to make his fighting style better, due to needing a good charisma, the paladin will have less strength typically than a Barb and Fighter who can also rage for several rounds, or get many bonus feats and weapon training to further seperate the ability to hit their opponents - whereas the only comparable offense the paladin gets is the Smite Evil - that is lost if it misses and at this point gets it for like 2 attacks a day - vs the ever-present weapon training and feats, or the duration of rounds of a barbarians rage.
I know that you have already said that the always on effect does not really appeal to you but I think this whole statement speaks for it's need. Im in the same boat as you for splat books and backwards compatibility, it will not effect me at all. And I dont even have the option for splat books...so those great little additions that are in those are not even used in many games. The core paladin should be able to stand on his own two feet without the need of a bunch of outside content. I still contend that an always on effect does this.
The targeting idea is not bad but I dont like how it effects the fluff. A paladin should smite ALL evil, not just the biggest baddies. That is what will happen with this ability. You will pick the biggest bad guy out of a GROUP of evil guys and hope that you get a chance to start hitting him....he should just smite everyone that is evil. Doing damage that is comparable to a fighter, again ONLY against evil...where the fighter would out damage him in every other situation.
C) smites = per day + cha mod. no loss on a miss, but is lost if used on a non-evil creature. I can't stress enough how badly this is needed to make the low level paladin on par with the rest of the now pathfinder classes.
I still dont think that this will level the playing field. Even with a Char score of 20 that is going to be 6 times a day. I can not speak for everyone but I know most of our sessions that deal with any sort of combat has us attacking a couple dozen times per.
Yes this would be a HUGE improvement but it is far from "par".
You are both right about the other paladin abilities, they are pretty good. I was of the mind to say that LOH should be better, but I am to the point where I think that it is fine the way it is. Detect evil needs work, there is no doubt. Our saves are fine (I would like a good will save but oh well).
At this point a GOOD fix to Smite would make me happy and content with the PF paladin.
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Someone upthread mentioned smite evil as = marking and that's an interesting idea. Maybe leave SE as is, but have it last for the duration of a combat. That is, I declare SE vs. a particular target, and if it's evil then I get SE as long as the combat lasts. I don't get SE vs. any other opponents.
This wouldn't really help much at lower levels, alas, cuz most foes are going down in a few hits, but would be a major boost at higher levels vs BBEGs.
I dunno, just an idea....
That was my suggestion - and in my campaigns, I've already made this change.
Others have illustrated that the problem with this change is that there are feats that exist in the Complete Champion that allow for your Smite Evil to also be able to do a free trip attempt or something - and if the Smite Evil was a duration - you'd get free trip attempts every attack.
I dont have this problem as I do not us splat books much at all - especially not that one.
So for my campaign we're using the "mark" on a target and it lasts a number of rounds equal to 1 + cha modifier.
Also you get a number of them per day equal to 1+Cha modifier - plus the automatics at 1st, 4th, 7th etc.
Finally you can have more than one target "marked" at once - but each one takes a swift action to do so - and only one can be marked per round - and each one uses one of the daily uses.
So if you only have 7 for that day and you mark 3 targets in one combat - you've only got 4 left for the remainder of the day.
The bonus during this duration is a bonus to attacks equal to Charisma Modifier, and bonus to damage equal to half-paladin level.
From our assessment, the only downside that could be surmised was the issue with the splat book feats - and that was not a deterrent in our games.
Robert
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A few months ago (Jan '08 IIRC), I proposed a rework of the paladin class that, IMO, brought it up to speed with the other 3.5 classes. Maybe a review of my class idea might yield a few useful tidbits.
Paladin
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills:
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Table: The Paladin
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Class Ability Auras Known
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite 1/Day (Magic) -
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands -
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Divine Health, Holy Conviction -
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Holy Aura +1 1
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite 2/day (Lawful or Good) 1
6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Companion, Lay on Hands (Improved) 1
7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 2
8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Holy Aura +2 2
9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Lay on Hands (Greater) 2
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Smite 3/day (Cold Iron or Silver) 3
11 +11/+6/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 3
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Holy Aura +3 3
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Lay on Hands (Superior) 4
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Holy Conviction (Share With Allies) 4
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 4
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Smite 4/day (Adamantine), Holy Aura +4 5
17 +17/+12/+7/+1 +10 +5 +5 - 5
18 +18/+12/+7/+2 +11 +6 +6 - 5
19 +19/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 6
20 +20/+14/+9/+4 +12 +6 +6 Smite 5/day (Epic), Holy Aura +5 6
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Smite (Su)
A paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her paladin level attack and damage rolls, and the weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction or harming incorporeal foes. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, then Smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up. A paladin may Smite 1 + Cha bonus (if any) times per day.
At 5th level, a paladin’s smite attack counts as good or lawful aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. A 10th level paladin’s smite counts as silver or cold iron. At 15th level, the paladin’s smite attempt counts as adamantine, and at 20th level the paladin’s smite attempt counts as Epic.
Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. She may also sacrifice 5 points of healing to remove 1 point of ability damage or remove the Dazed, Fatigued or Sickened condition from one individual. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
At higher levels, the Paladin may use Lay on Hands to have additional effects. At 6th level, a paladin may sacrifice 10 points of healing to remove the Exhausted, Nauseated, Poisoned or Stunned condition. At 9th level, she may sacrifice 20 points of healing to remove a negative level or Blinded, Deafened, Diseased or Paralyzed conditions. At 13th level, she may spend 40 points to restore 1 point of ability or level drain or remove a Curse, Domination or Geas effect.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
Holy Conviction (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). At 14th level, the paladin may share this ability with all allies within 30’ as long as she is alive and conscious.
Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Holy Aura (Su)
Starting at 4th level, a paladin can begin to project the favour of their in the form of a magical aura (see Holy Auras sidebar). These auras can protect her companions or demoralize evil foes.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and a paladin can only project one aura at a time. An aura remains in effect until the she uses a free action to dismiss it or project a new one in its place. It may be active continuously, and may be in effect even before an encounter begins. Auras affect all allies (including the paladin) within a 30’ radius with line of effect. It is automatically dismissed if you become unconscious or dead, but remains active if you are otherwise incapacitated and unable to act (eg. Paralyzed),
The bonus granted by the aura is +1, and increases by +1 every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th). The paladin may only learn a limited number of auras and cannot change them once they are selected.
Paladin Holy Auras:
Succor: Allies gain fast healing equal to the paladin’s aura bonus. Characters may only heal until half of their original HP are recovered.
Steadfastness: Allies gain a morale bonus to their saving throws equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus.
Peace: Allies gain a morale bonus to Diplomacy and Heal Checks equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus
Defiance: Allies gain DR/Evil equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus.
Puissance: Allies gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to the paladin’s aura bonus.
Lifekeeping: Allies may ignore negative levels inflicted by necromantic effects and energy drain. Each ally may ignore one negative level per point of the Paladin’s aura bonus. Once the maximum number of negative levels have been cancelled, the ally may not take advantage of them again that encounter, even if the paladin projects the aura again.
Wrath: Evil foes suffer a morale penalty to their saving throws equal to the paladin’s aura bonus. Undead suffer double this penalty and it applies to turn resistance too.
Companion (Ex)
At 5th level, a paladin attracts a special follower. They may choose from a Mortal or Celestial Companion. All companions are Lawful Good. Calling a Companion takes 24 hours of uninterrupted prayer and meditation.
A Mortal Companion is a fighter of the paladin’s race. They begin play 2 levels lower than the paladin and progress as a regular NPC Cohort (see the Leadership feat). Celestial Companions are extraplanar magical beasts (celestial template) or outsiders that are sympathetic to the Paladin’s cause. The ECL of a celestial Companion is 2 below that of the paladin. If the paladin calls upon a celestial magical beast that is willing to serve as a mount, ignore the LA of +2 when calculating its ECL.
If a Companion dies, the paladin may attract a new one immediately. If the paladin ceases to be Lawful Good or looses her class abilities, the Companion departs and a new one must be called if her status is restored. A paladin may still select Leadership as a feat, but the Companion counts as a familiar, for the purposes of determining the other cohort’s level.
Bonus Feat:
At 7th, 11th and 14th levels, a paladin may select a bonus feat from the following list. They must still meet the feat’s perquisites in order to select it: Cleave, Extra Smiting, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, and Trample.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin auras and abilities (including their Companion, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies or bonus feats). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
A Note Regarding Divine Feats:
The notable absence of Turn Undead from the paladin’s class abilities would appear to make them no longer qualified to take divine feats. To remedy this, count the Smite ability as the prerequisite instead of Turn Undead. Obviously, divine metamagic (any metamagic feats, really) are not useful to the class as they are no longer spellcasters.
Basically, it's a hybrid of the paladin and dragon shaman classes. The idea of the weapon bond had not been introduced yet, so I've got other stuff there. If the powers that be like parts of it, they can help themselves. Just an idea, YMMV.
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I still dont think that this will level the playing field. Even with a Char score of 20 that is going to be 6 times a day.
C) smites = per day + cha mod. no loss on a miss, but is lost if used on a non-evil creature. I can't stress enough how badly this is needed to make the low level paladin on par with the rest of the now pathfinder classes.
6 times a day at first level. I'm a believer in the per day system, the problem is that unlike the other per day abilities of other classes the progression of a paladins leaves way too much to be desired.
for my character I would have 4 smites per day right now, in the last fight i could've hit the two weapon fighter with a smite, then I might not have had to take so many total defenses, I could have also tried to smite the one hit I got on the BBEG of the fight if I hadn't been in my head saying "wait till I'm sure I'll need it", and still had a smite for the guy who was in my way when I the BBEG started to run. When I think of my level I think that 4/day sounds right for the ability.
I understand that you want more damage or always on, but at the same time if while you propose your system and Jason goes, well that goes to far, he can then look at my system as a much more reasonable alternative. at least that's my hope.
Still I understand that for a 1/day ability it is pretty weak, at 20 level a paladin with a reasonable cha of 24 would be able to smite 14 times a day, that's a total of 280 damage in addition to his otherwise normal damage dealing.
A foolish wizard at 20th level could memorize 14 maximised magic missles at 25 damage a pop, thats 350 damage with no fear that you'll waste a round to a rolled one, and still have as many immunities because all of his 4 and lower level spells are buffs, and still have some 9th level spells.
I don't even want to get into the rediculous damage builds I could make with a 20th level fighter with twice as many feats as the pally.
So I can understand the concerns of people who want the pally to do more damage with his smites, however for my personal belief I think that we should push for the most reasonable change that throws off the least in terms of backwards compatability.
And having just a few more smites per day in their current incarnation is the simplest fix.
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The targeting idea is not bad but I dont like how it effects the fluff. A paladin should smite ALL evil, not just the biggest baddies. That is what will happen with this ability. You will pick the biggest bad guy out of a GROUP of evil guys and hope that you get a chance to start hitting him....he should just smite everyone that is evil. Doing damage that is comparable to a fighter, again ONLY against evil...where the fighter would out damage him in every other situation.
And I actually like the 'fluff' quite a bit. It has more of a 'personal' feel to it. That the paladin is taking a personal vested interest in removing a particularly danagerous and evil villain from the world - punishing HIM for his crimes against the good of the world.
The Players handbook says that a paladin is to 'punish the wicked.' To me, the fluff feels right in reaching that goal.
Robert
To be completely honest I am just happy that there is such an outcry for the paladin. They have been the stepchildren of the game for to long. I do not understand why they seem to be down played so much. Groups should be HAPPY to have a paladin with them but it seems like quite the contrary.
I am not trying to argue AGAINST anyone elses idea of how to fix it, more just arguing for my fix (because we all believe we have figured it out). There are a lot of things that could be changed but for me Smite is the big one, fix that and I will be content.
Simply put when it comes to fighting evil I think that the paladin should be able to keep pace (damage wise) with nearly any other character, especially melee's. There is no reason that (again when fighting EVIL only) a fighter should be able to out damage a paladin. I just feel like the ONLY way to make him "keep up" is to have the always on effect. All of the other changes are great and are definite improvements....but I dont think that they will keep pace.
The more I have went over things and thought about how other classes will be built the more I think that this change is necessary because there are going to be some devastating damage builds pop up, and when some big evil cleric walks up to your group he should be more afraid of the paladin than ANYONE, especially the other melee types. As it stands he would probably save the paladin for last, because the paladin is truly not that big of a threat to him (because he can not hurt him like the rest of the group can).
Okay, here's my two-cents... I've been a fan of Paladins from day 1... Day 1 being 1st edition D&D back in '79, with a scuffed secondhand PH my Dad gave me after he got a new one for his birthday. Jason Lawbringer was an early exercise in role-playing, my Lancelot, my Galahad, in a world of sinister assassins and demonic fiends up to no good. I had a blast playing him.
So with that experience under my belt, I was of course cautious when 3rd edition made certain changes to the Paladin of old... spells at much earlier levels, Lay on Hands curing much more than the original 2 hp/level (unless your Charisma was lower than 16, which was hard since everyone was used to needing a 17 or better to be a Pally in the first place), and saving throws that would make Elminster jealous. I was stoked! And best of all, the concept works. It really does. You see, in battle, your character is what you make him. Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, or reformed abolitionist, in combat we are all created equal. We are. We just have different tools to get the job done, but the rules are the same. Fighters get more feats, but if they don't pick ones that boost their strengths and de-emphasize their weaknesses, they suffer. Likewise, a paladin needs to choose feats and skills that emphasize his strengths. Obviously, high Strength and Charisma scores go with that... special abilities are based on Charisma, including Smite to hit bonuses, Save bonuses, and Lay on Hands healing... Strength for obvious melee combat bonuses to hit and damage. High Con is nice too, but not essential.. d10 HD helps on that end. Int gives more skills, but you can live without it. Wisdom helps with Will saves, but that's what your Divine Grace ability is for. And Dex... well, if you're going to strap on plate mail, anything above a 12 Dex is a waste of good points.
But don't take my word for it... see for yourselves: My group is currently in the first Pathfinder adventure path. We have a group that has a Paladin in it. The player runs a standard "sword n' board" pally (that's sword n' shield style in layman's terms) and usually is rear guard in standard marching order. Why? Because with his heavy armor, heavy shield and 14 Con, he can take a hit... 20 or 21 AC is nothing to sneeze at. Also, it puts him in a position to see what happens in battle before rushing in, to see if he needs to step up to fight, cast a spell, Lay on Hands, use an assist action or just pull back an injured party member who becomes paralyzed, KO'd, or otherwise out of the fight. From what I've seen, it's a very effective strategy.
I admit, like so many other posters before me, I don't usually see him cast Detect Evil in combat. Why? Because it's usually pointless... if a monster or armed individual is attacking them, initiating combat, then they are categorized as "the Bad Guys." They are at least hostile, so qualifying them as Evil or not becomes a moot issue. And if you do have to use it in combat, you really only need one round of it... if you're not evil, and your friends aren't evil, then if your Detect Evil ability finds Evil to be present during the first round of that spell, chances are it's the people that are trying to kill you. Ranadel, the Pally in question, finds it much more useful to Detect Evil on prisoners, or anyone who might be trying to persuade him of something. For instance...
Smite Evil seems to work just fine too... Yeah, it's no great shakes at low levels, but neither was the Fighter's Power Attack feat, since it now maxes out at either your Strength bonus or your BAB, whichever is lower. This put the paladin and the party fighter on more level ground, till they both gained a few more levels. Also, I let him "Hold the Charge" if he missed in combat, since the rules didn't mention losing your Smite attempt if you miss, only if you struck someone who wasn't evil after all. This makes sure you get to actually USE it those few times per day, unless you are particularly careless.
Their Lay On Hands does seem limited, I admit... but it's always been just 2 points per level up till now (3 or 4 in 3rd ed if you have an exceptionally high Charisma). This really doesn't change all that much. By the time they get to be higher level, they will likely have more powerful magics to help with healing, so Lay On Hands will just be a quick way to stop someone in the negatives from dying, just like it's always been. C'mon, you're not a cleric, so stop acting like one. At best, you're a more reliable first aid kit, good for a battlefield dressing at best. If you want all your hit points back at once, play a Cleric instead... that's what they're for.
Divine Grace gives him high Save scores in almost any situation... curses, charms, poison, even lightning! The only save I've seen him fail so far is when he rolled a 1. (His quote? "Ghouls suck!" Pretty profound, I thought, but I'm glad he lived through it.) And fear? Fugeddabowdit! His Aura of Courage kicked in at level 3, and no one in the party has been Feared since. Except for our gnome rogue who was too far away to benefit, the entire party got a +4 bonus to save against the Yeth Hounds in Thistletop and no one failed their saves. Except the gnome. But that's okay, because she's couldn't run very fast... hehe!
Divine Health kept him clean and healthy while the Fighter and Cleric were both scratching at itchy phage-infested boils and twitching and drooling from ghoul fever during the Skinsaw Murders, and that probably saved the party more than anything, because he was still healthy and able to protect them during their journey back to Sandpoint. One less Remove Disease to cast ... which doesn't always work, by the way. I love that change! Now the caster has to make a caster level check versus the DC of the disease for it to be able to cure you! Great idea. Brings back the fear of the plague in a medieval age where even the mighty should rightly fear pox and influenza. But the valiant Paladin is too pure to be infected... righteous!
Lastly, the Channel Positive Energy gained at 4th brings even more healing to the paladin's plate. Just like the Cleric, now the paladin can channel the power of the Almighty and heal the wounds of all within a small area around him. True, it's not as powerful as the Cleric's ability with this power, but again, if you want to cure everyone up to full health, play a Cleric. If you want to stop everyone's bleeding wounds, and reduce the effectiveness of their enemies by causing ALL the party's wounds to close as quickly as they are made, and incidentally make the DM grit his teeth in frustration, you need to remember how useful an ability Channel Positive Energy is.
All in all, from what I've seen so far, our little Ranadel is a mighty warrior indeed. At 5th level now, soon to be 6th, he can smite neutral with the best of them, and give just a little extra smackdown to the truly Wicked. And all his other abilities make him so much different from the party Fighter that it's ridiculous to dispute it. Obviously, some don't see all that... but to that I say, if your Paladin feels like he's just another warrior, it's probably because that's how you're playing him.
@Maveric28
I respect what you are saying but truth is people play paladins different. I see them as leaders, and as a leader I like to lead from the front. I want to stand against the tide before it crashes into my companions. I want to take the brunt of the fight on my shield so that they can weather the storm.
In all honesty what you described is HOW the paladin is supposed to work, but it does not. When the paladin is in front he is not perceived as a threat. It is better to avoid him all together to stop the people that can really hurt you. This makes sense if the things you are fighting are NOT evil. But when they are they should fear what that paladin is about to do to them. They should know that he brings righteous wrath with him and as he shouts his battle cry "I AM THE HAMMER" (thats the start of mine) they should know that they stand against something they should have never thought of facing. Instead they look at the group with you and say, oh no that fighter has a Battle Axe, he is going to do some terrible damage. That wizard is readying a fireball, he is going to devastate us. We need to take them out before they can hurt us. The paladin is ignored, and his battle cry becomes "i am the soft and fuzzy Q-tip".
You started out talking about all the fluff and the way the paladin is supposed to be used and then you shurked the use of Detect evil in combat. I think this is wrong. A paladin SHOULD detect before flying into the battle. I always detect first (if they are of humanoid int.) and then give them the chance to throw down their weapons and leave if they are not evil. Detect evil should have a place in combat, a paladin should know what he is fighting. If it is evil, he should smite it! THAT IS WHAT HE WAS MADE A PALADIN FOR!
I am sorry if I sound heated on some of these posts. Like you the paladin is what sold me on role playing. The concept behind them and what they stand for is why I play the game. It is why I read fantasy novels (though they are a joke there too and hardly ever seen). I hate to see the place that the paladin is being put in. Stand in the back, let me handle this says the fighter. If someone goes down just hit them with a little heal until I can get to them says the cleric. That is all fine and good if you are not fighting evil, the paladin shouldnt be near as effective (for damage and such) against things that arent. But I can not stress it enough that in those situations, when evil is at their worst that is when the paladin should be at their best!!! *sigh* they just are not...play them however you want, try to manipulate the system however you can. The paladin is coming in last for healing and last for damage. The only place he really helps is with his utility and that is a shame.
I have said before, I dont want the paladin to heal like a cleric or turn like a cleric. I dont want the paladin to out damage a fighter or barbarian. I dont want him shooting fireballs from his eyes. I just want him to do what he is supposed to do, fight and defeat evil. With the current system (3.5 and PF) he does not do that.
I am going to continue to post here until the final version comes out. I am going to fight for the paladins name until we see where they are put on the final edition. Not only for the fact that with my current DM, if it is not in the book I cant do it (no splat books, no house rules, no manipulation at all). But also for the fact that paladins deserve the change. If not for paladins I would probably not still role play today.
Okay, here's my two-cents... I've been a fan of Paladins from day 1... Day 1 being 1st edition D&D back in '79, with a scuffed secondhand PH my Dad gave me after he got a new one for his birthday. Jason Lawbringer was an early exercise in role-playing, my Lancelot, my Galahad, in a world of sinister assassins and demonic fiends up to no good. I had a blast playing him.
So with that experience under my belt, I was of course cautious when 3rd edition made certain changes to the Paladin of old... spells at much earlier levels, Lay on Hands curing much more than the original 2 hp/level (unless your Charisma was lower than 16, which was hard since everyone was used to needing a 17 or better to be a Pally in the first place), and saving throws that would make Elminster jealous. I was stoked! And best of all, the concept works. It really does. You see, in battle, your character is what you make him. Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, or reformed abolitionist, in combat we are all created equal. We are. We just have different tools to get the job done, but the rules are the same. Fighters get more feats, but if they don't pick ones that boost their strengths and de-emphasize their weaknesses, they suffer. Likewise, a paladin needs to choose feats and skills that emphasize his strengths. Obviously, high Strength and Charisma scores go with that... special abilities are based on Charisma, including Smite to hit bonuses, Save bonuses, and Lay on Hands healing... Strength for obvious melee combat bonuses to hit and damage. High Con is nice too, but not essential.. d10 HD helps on that end. Int gives more skills, but you can live without it. Wisdom helps with Will saves, but that's what your Divine Grace ability is for. And Dex... well, if you're going to strap on plate mail, anything above a 12 Dex is a waste of good points.
But don't take my word for it... see for yourselves: My group is currently in the first Pathfinder adventure path. We have a group that has a Paladin in it. The player runs a standard "sword n' board" pally...
I have to agree with Maverick28. I just don't think the class is bad as is. I would be ok with some minor tweaks/boosts but I feel the class does fine now. I still rally against the idea of the SE ability being a duration based ability because of backwards compatibility. The most needed improvement in my opinion was the Cha being used for spells and that change has already been made. I'm all for some modifications to the class but I worry that some of the proposed changes are a bit much.
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I have to agree with Maverick28. I just don't think the class is bad as is. I would be ok with some minor tweaks/boosts but I feel the class does fine now. I still rally against the idea of the SE ability being a duration based ability because of backwards compatibility. The most needed improvement in my opinion was the Cha being used for spells and that change has already been made. I'm all for some modifications to the class but I worry that some of the proposed changes are a bit much.
I don't think the class is bad as is. I'm playing one, if I thought it was bad I wouldn't play it. My problem and the reason I am pushing for changes is not because I feel the class is subpar. It's because at low levels mainly 1-5 the class encourages the 15 minute workday with the only combat mechanic being 1 smite per day. Pathfinder is trying to kill the 15 minute workday remember. and because in combat (and this is focused on the combat because I have fun roleplaying my paladin) the class is the only one that I can honestly say plays like an = level warrior, yes I can stabalize a characters wounds if necesary but you know what, god forbid I play with a cleric, who will just pop off a cbannel and stabilize the guy while healing all allies at the same time without having to go to him. I want the class to be as fun at low levels as it is once all of your class features kick in. I don't want a character to have to get to level 5 to feel like it's own class.
And because I agree that the paladin plays fine once all class features can be utilized that's why I'm pushing for minor changes that really only affect low level play.
And actually Maverick you've given me a change of position. lay on hands would be fine for me at 2 hp per level instead of 1. That would take the class back to its roots, and while 4 hp isn't that great at level 2, it's at least enough to usually counteract one hit. and keeps pace better. So now I'm changing my answer.
Now I want
A) snites = to 1/day + cha mod at level one
B) lay on hands = same as now only healing 2 hp per level
C) Detect evil = move equivalent action to concentrate, maybe a swift action to activate.
Now this question is directed to the people who think the paladin plays fine as is, especially gorum and maverick, are any of these changes that you feel would push paladin abilities over the top? Do you think this manages to fix low level play and keep the paladin feeling like the same class? And if not then isn't this a good compromise to keep yourselves happy and the people who actually want a little improvement?
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Okay, here's my two-cents... I've been a fan of Paladins from day 1...
Yeah me too, but for me day 1 was baldur's gate PC game and then my day one for P&P(pen and paper) D&D was on the actual date of the 40th aniversary of D&D.
Now having said that, I have always played campaigns that start at level one, and the continuing theme has been, that the paladin underperforms in terms of class features until level 5 or so. That is not saying he doesn't pull his weight or that he sucks as a class in total. And it wasn't even as bad in 3.5 because a core only game most classes ran out of steam after the first fight, but in pathfinder, every other class has been boosted to make it capable of going for more than one fight and has been retooled to break the 5 minute work day except for the paladin.
I dont understand how the always active ability would be a bit much. all the other melee classes have always active increased damage and some hit and damage, which work ALL the time, not just against evil. Fighters have the new weapons maneuvers and feats that bump damage. Rangers with favored enemy, rogues with back stab. All of these are damage boosts that work constantly. I simply think that the paladin should have an equal mechanic, but ONLY when fighting evil. Hell even if it was just Char bonus to it and damage (not half paladin level). That would make it stronger to start but weaker down the road.
I just dont understand why people think that this one simple change is to much.
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I dont understand how the always active ability would be a bit much. all the other melee classes have always active increased damage and some hit and damage, which work ALL the time, not just against evil. Fighters have the new weapons maneuvers and feats that bump damage. Rangers with favored enemy, rogues with back stab. All of these are damage boosts that work constantly. I simply think that the paladin should have an equal mechanic, but ONLY when fighting evil. Hell even if it was just Char bonus to it and damage (not half paladin level). That would make it stronger to start but weaker down the road.
I just dont understand why people think that this one simple change is to much.
We've told you why several times, it just doesn't apply to your games, in your games it's a valid and workable design choice, in mine I could seriously overpower the pally with it without even trying that hard. An adoptable solution has to be one that works equally in all games and satisfies even those who think the class is fine as is.
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I dont understand how the always active ability would be a bit much. all the other melee classes have always active increased damage and some hit and damage, which work ALL the time, not just against evil. Fighters have the new weapons maneuvers and feats that bump damage. Rangers with favored enemy, rogues with back stab. All of these are damage boosts that work constantly. I simply think that the paladin should have an equal mechanic, but ONLY when fighting evil. Hell even if it was just Char bonus to it and damage (not half paladin level). That would make it stronger to start but weaker down the road.
I just dont understand why people think that this one simple change is to much.
I think people are mainly concerned with the feats that tack a free combat maneauvers and the like onto paladin smites and a continual effect means that these would be always active. Now I can kind of see their point but have they actually used anything similar in game to see how it might play with the balance, Tsunami Strike from Warriors Way (Sinister Indulgence) has a similar effect every strike you make with an unarmed attack knocks your opponent back 5 ft, if you take a full round action to do so you can increase this distance, theres no save or contested roll the attack hits this happens, it hasn't particularly unbalanced any combats just added another tool to the parties arsenal. Now if improved trip still added the free attack then there may have been an issue, but the image of a Paladin knocking those evil doers around like rag dolls and smiting them to the ground in numbers thats quite evocative and to be able to actually do it would be something.
We've told you why several times, it just doesn't apply to your games, in your games it's a valid and workable design choice, in mine I could seriously overpower the pally with it without even trying that hard. An adoptable solution has to be one that works equally in all games and satisfies even those who think the class is fine as is.I dont understand how the always active ability would be a bit much. all the other melee classes have always active increased damage and some hit and damage, which work ALL the time, not just against evil. Fighters have the new weapons maneuvers and feats that bump damage. Rangers with favored enemy, rogues with back stab. All of these are damage boosts that work constantly. I simply think that the paladin should have an equal mechanic, but ONLY when fighting evil. Hell even if it was just Char bonus to it and damage (not half paladin level). That would make it stronger to start but weaker down the road.
I just dont understand why people think that this one simple change is to much.
So you are saying that with core only, the idea is not broken or over powered. It is the splat books that gives this the potential to be unbalanced?
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Kinda wondering if Detect Evil should drift outside of the realm of active sensor and into the realm of passive. Or, maybe a combination of both. Perhaps, if a paladin is attempting to sense a room, it would go the way it does currently, but, if a paladin comes into direct contact ... BAMM. Just like in the movie Unbreakable.
Food for thought.
EDIT:
The more I think about this, the more I like it. Role-playing: A paladin is informed a local nobel is going to be assassinated this evening at the royal gala. Standing off to the side, he begins to concentrate ... Combat: The party charges the big evil guy, and commences to lay down the smack. Unbeknownst to all, this is actually a pretty nasty demon in human form. As the paladin makes contact, she's staggered by the horrors that her mind has been violently exposed to. The BBEG smiles, "Ah! And what have we here, sweetness? Have you tasted of my darkness? Come, taste more!" She gathers her will about her, face determined as she summons the will of her goddess ...
Yeah. Probably way overpowered for the general public, but I don't play like y'all do. Expect it to be house-ruled in my games like that from here forward.
Actually, one of my players just set about making a Paladin, and we had a brief talk about detect evil (paladin style). Given all his other fancy auras, we started wondering: what if detect evil was an aura?
We came up with:
Detect Evil [Su]: The paladin is surrounded by an aura in a radius of 10 feet that can detect evil. If a creature inside the detect evil aura attacks the paladin (directly or indirectly, such as with an area effect spell), uses an evil item, or casts an evil spell, then the paladin automatically detects whether or not that creature, item, or spell is evil (or some combination of the above). If an evil effect is targeted into the aura, the paladin becomes aware of this as well. The paladin cannot determine the strength of the evil aura, only that it exists and...
Like that Jal....and I think I might use it myself. Does anyone else out there think that smite should pehaps allow an automatic maximum damage critical if it hits...maybe as an 'improved smite evil' ability...from about 5th or 6th level on..It's annoying that the Paladin seems to have been the neglected class in PF. But then he's been that since 3.0 so i guess nothing changes
I think people are mainly concerned with the feats that tack a free combat maneauvers and the like onto paladin smites and a continual effect means that these would be always active. Now I can kind of see their point but have they actually used anything similar in game to see how it might play with the balance, Tsunami Strike from Warriors Way (Sinister Indulgence) has a similar effect every strike you make with an unarmed attack knocks your opponent back 5 ft, if you take a full round action to do so you can increase this distance, theres no save or contested roll the attack hits this happens, it hasn't particularly unbalanced any combats just added another tool to the parties arsenal. Now if improved trip still added the free attack then there may have been an issue, but the image of a Paladin knocking those evil doers around like rag dolls and smiting them to the ground in numbers thats quite evocative and to be able to actually do it would be something.I dont understand how the always active ability would be a bit much. all the other melee classes have always active increased damage and some hit and damage, which work ALL the time, not just against evil. Fighters have the new weapons maneuvers and feats that bump damage. Rangers with favored enemy, rogues with back stab. All of these are damage boosts that work constantly. I simply think that the paladin should have an equal mechanic, but ONLY when fighting evil. Hell even if it was just Char bonus to it and damage (not half paladin level). That would make it stronger to start but weaker down the road.
I just dont understand why people think that this one simple change is to much.
I am not quite sure if you are saying the always active idea would be good or bad....
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So you are saying that with core only, the idea is not broken or over powered. It is the splat books that gives this the potential to be unbalanced?We've told you why several times, it just doesn't apply to your games, in your games it's a valid and workable design choice, in mine I could seriously overpower the pally with it without even trying that hard. An adoptable solution has to be one that works equally in all games and satisfies even those who think the class is fine as is.I dont understand how the always active ability would be a bit much. all the other melee classes have always active increased damage and some hit and damage, which work ALL the time, not just against evil. Fighters have the new weapons maneuvers and feats that bump damage. Rangers with favored enemy, rogues with back stab. All of these are damage boosts that work constantly. I simply think that the paladin should have an equal mechanic, but ONLY when fighting evil. Hell even if it was just Char bonus to it and damage (not half paladin level). That would make it stronger to start but weaker down the road.
I just dont understand why people think that this one simple change is to much.
Bingo
Ok, well what would be wrong with writing it like this....
Smite Evil: When paladins attack they are attempting to banish evil with every strike. When they strike an evil foe they gain their charisma bonus to their to hit role and half their paladin level to their damage role. This ability can be "turned off" if attacking an opponent that is not evil. If a paladin attempts to smite a subject that is not evil then he looses his ability to smite for 24 hours.
Also, any ability that would add an extra effect to a paladins smite only activates a number of times per day = to the paladins charisma modifier (if any). This limitation does not effect things that would cause the smite to be aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.
Would this eliminate the problems that could be caused from these other feats? I believe trip was mentioned before, that would still allow you to gain that feat if you wanted that effect but it would be limited in its use. Does this break any backwards compatibility? or cause any huge power flux? As you already know we do not use any of these other books in our game and I have no idea what those other effects are....I am going to do a little research.
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I am not quite sure if you are saying the always active idea would be good or bad....
Heh this is what happens when you try to type something up quickly whilst you have a bath running. I'm mostly in favour of a continuous smite but I can see where the concerns lie (I think the free CM's arn't an issue but I seem to recall a damage booster of somesort that might be.)
Heh this is what happens when you try to type something up quickly whilst you have a bath running. I'm mostly in favour of a continuous smite but I can see where the concerns lie (I think the free CM's arn't an issue but I seem to recall a damage booster of somesort that might be.)
I am not quite sure if you are saying the always active idea would be good or bad....
AHHH ok makes more sense now, glad for some support. Does anyone know which books I should try to read to see what these potential problems everyone is talking about are? I dont like making uninformed decisions/statements I just want to see the paladin be what he should be.
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AHHH ok makes more sense now, glad for some support. Does anyone know which books I should try to read to see what these potential problems everyone is talking about are? I dont like making uninformed decisions/statements I just want to see the paladin be what he should be.Heh this is what happens when you try to type something up quickly whilst you have a bath running. I'm mostly in favour of a continuous smite but I can see where the concerns lie (I think the free CM's arn't an issue but I seem to recall a damage booster of somesort that might be.)
I am not quite sure if you are saying the always active idea would be good or bad....
Well in the books I own, complete champion has a tactical feat that works with PA, a low strength pally could use PA every round since it'd be -1 +1, or -2 +2 at worse and choose between three rider effects to accompany smite.
There are also smite based feats that change how smite works in what effect or who it targets, I can't remember what book they are in off the top of my head (I post from work) but what happens when a player takes a feat to allow smiting any outsiders, or elementals, or nuetral opponents?
with an always on effect and a feat that allows you to smite non-evil then you can always target that type (remember target switches aren't considered rider effects)
and if I really wanted to play twinky (I don't, but I could) I could be making my smite hurt anything but good, with extra damage attaching rider effects as often as able, and it sounds like cool, but once again I'm not doing this against evil I'm doing it against any non-good. and I could be doing it by level 7 possibly 5 if I'm human.
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There are also smite based feats that change how smite works in what effect or who it targets, I can't remember what book they are in off the top of my head (I post from work) but what happens when a player takes a feat to allow smiting any outsiders, or elementals, or nuetral opponents?
with an always on effect and a feat that allows you to smite non-evil then you can always target that type (remember target switches aren't considered rider effects)and if I really wanted to play twinky (I don't, but I could) I could be making my smite hurt anything but good, with extra damage attaching rider effects as often as able, and it sounds like cool, but once again I'm not doing this against evil I'm doing it against any non-good. and I could be doing it by level 7 possibly 5 if I'm human.
This is the sort of thing that we need to be careful of sure, but TBH in this situation I would be quite harsh in adjudicating Code of Conduct ok so you can apply your Smite to a wider range of opponents but should you? its also partially the reason why my suggestion used the number of times per day as the bonus rather than the charisma mod, 1/2 level bonus (as well as disassociating another abilty though your milage may vary on that,) the extra damage riders are harder to overcome but not overly so (a usage limit like Vult suggested being the main one though these are HR territory thats trying to be avoided.),
Well in the books I own, complete champion has a tactical feat that works with PA, a low strength pally could use PA every round since it'd be -1 +1, or -2 +2 at worse and choose between three rider effects to accompany smite.
This is a PA issue, and it has been severely weakened in its new form so I dont see it as much of an issue truly.
There are also smite based feats that change how smite works in what effect or who it targets, I can't remember what book they are in off the top of my head (I post from work) but what happens when a player takes a feat to allow smiting any outsiders, or elementals, or nuetral opponents?
with an always on effect and a feat that allows you to smite non-evil then you can always target that type (remember target switches aren't considered rider effects)
Ok, didnt know about those things. The new description I already wrote stats that if you smite something that is not evil you cant smite for 24 hours. That is one fix though I am sure one that most people would not like. Another way to do it is if you select the ability to smite something other than evil it changes to that type. Like if you select to be able to smite neutral then you loose your smite evil and now you simply smite neutral. Paladins should not be able to smite everything, they should only be able to use that ability on things that they were meant to fight.
and if I really wanted to play twinky (I don't, but I could) I could be making my smite hurt anything but good, with extra damage attaching rider effects as often as able, and it sounds like cool, but once again I'm not doing this against evil I'm doing it against any non-good. and I could be doing it by level 7 possibly 5 if I'm human.
From reading your description of how you play i would not expect something like that from you. I am the same way, I enjoy playing a paladin for what it stands for, not what it can do. But when you break it down it should be able to do certain things to back up all the fluff behind it (thus my arguments for a continuous smite ability).
It is a shame that things like this have even been made possible in these games. That is the hight of power gaming. People who try to develope builds like this are why there is such an issue.
This is the sort of thing that we need to be careful of sure, but TBH in this situation I would be quite harsh in adjudicating Code of Conduct ok so you can apply your Smite to a wider range of opponents but should you? its also partially the reason why my suggestion used the number of times per day as the bonus rather than the charisma mod, 1/2 level bonus (as well as disassociating another abilty though your milage may vary on that,) the extra damage riders are harder to overcome but not overly so (a usage limit like Vult suggested being the main one though these are HR territory thats trying to be avoided.),
There are also smite based feats that change how smite works in what effect or who it targets, I can't remember what book they are in off the top of my head (I post from work) but what happens when a player takes a feat to allow smiting any outsiders, or elementals, or nuetral opponents?
with an always on effect and a feat that allows you to smite non-evil then you can always target that type (remember target switches aren't considered rider effects)and if I really wanted to play twinky (I don't, but I could) I could be making my smite hurt anything but good, with extra damage attaching rider effects as often as able, and it sounds like cool, but once again I'm not doing this against evil I'm doing it against any non-good. and I could be doing it by level 7 possibly 5 if I'm human.
I think the first issue you were talking about is that if someone decided to choose a feat that allowed you to smite neutral is that breaking the paladins code of conduct? I would have to say that it is, if you work for a lawful good god then you should not be smiting things that are neutral.
Good point about Aura of Justice. I would fix that by saying that if the paladin decides to use this option he looses his ability to smite for the duration of that particular combat. In essence he let his fellows smite for 1 round, so he has expended his use of the ability for a short time. I am not a huge fan of this aura but if it must stay then this would be a good fix to allow the continual smite effect.