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Okay so due to TS Fay wrecking my life (and pathfinder #1 and #3 ruined, my grandmother in laws house flooded) I have stepped down as DM in my group and rolled up a character. I chose my race as half-orc, my class as paladin. Play started at lvl. 2 and just to get us warmed up we had one non roleplay combat to test run the characters (no story involved, just a fun combat)
Generation was done with heroic rolls (2d6+6) arranged to taste, but when I rolled my stats they literally came in the pattern 9, +1, +2, +1, +2, +1. I thought that was so cool I decided it was meant to be kept down the line. My final stats after racial mods came in at 11, 10, 12, 11, 17, 16. So when I get to the appropriate levels I'm going to focus on my magic/mystical powers. since I'm a rather average combatant.
Anyways we ran our combat. and I must say I found the paladin to be as much of a let down at level two, as previous playtesting showed level one to be. The big issue is that other than the saves the way the paladin is written up he fights just like a warrior npc class. At level 2 he has one smite per day, and can detect evil and lay on hands. I will break down how none of these abilities are of any assistance in combat.
First detect evil. I never used it. In roleplay I will use the crap out of it, but it's a standard action. I won the initiative for the combat and had a surpirse round but the problem was that we were fighting 7 goblins who were spread out and started 60 ft away which means that unless I closed on some quickly I was pincussion. So I ran to close the gap. Then spent just about every round charging a goblin because one hit would drop them. There was never a round I could afford to waste a standard action just to detect evil. I think that a pally's detect evil needs to be a swift action so that it doesn't waste an entire round of combat. Otherwise it's more of a hindrance than a blessing.
Second Smite Evil. I tried to use my whoping 1 use per day on the leader. rolled a 3 yippee. So my main class feature the defining ability of the paladin got one shot at lvl 2 and got wasted on a single miss. without smite evil I literally become a warrior in combat, I have no bonus feats and I'm left to my stats and BAB, like I said. Like a warrior NPC class. I have proposed before that a palladin needs more smites anyways. even at 20th level he has a whopping seven. I don't think it would be game breaking or kill backwards compatability to have 1 plus cha or wis bonus per day. In the best possible scenario a 1st level halfling or gnome palladin having 6 smites is no worse than a focused specialist wizard having 3 spells per day and an infinite at will ability.
Third Lay on hands. Heal two hp, wow, aweful. No offense I love how you've broken up healing so you have more at higher levels, but really lay on hands until you get those nifty you can use your lay on hands to do x abilities this is aweful in any situation other than out of combat healing. either we need to be able to use multiple lay on hands at once say three uses to heal 6 hp as a standard action, or the healing needs to be bumped. I couldn't use this ability because by the time I needed it the thing I was fighting was relying on a wand of Magic missle. Which on the lowest possible roll deals 2 damage. if my other players hadn't been occupying the other goblins I would have been killed. As it was I had to ignore my low HP and keep hitting the guy because I couldn't afford to waste an action healing.
Are you getting the gist of the low level paladin, cause if not here it is. I have a bunch of cool abilities, but I can't use any of them because a normal attack is better than any of them. smite might be good but it's use it and loose it nature combined with not being worth loosing an action to Detect means it isn't up to the task either.This isn't a fault of pathfinder, for the most part it's a failure of 3.x since it's the same problem it always has. But it would be nice if the palladin wasn't the passive agressive class (I.E all my useful abilities are passive features like save boosts and immunities). At level 4 this problem starts to go away as spells turning and bonds start kicking in. But you shouldn't have to wait till 4th level to really enjoy your character, and 1-3rd level pallys are glorified warrior NPC classes.
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Okay so due to TS Fay wrecking my life (and pathfinder #1 and #3 ruined, my grandmother in laws house flooded) I have stepped down as DM in my group and rolled up a character.
I'm so sorry to hear that! :(
First detect evil. There was never a round I could afford to waste a standard action just to detect evil. I think that a pally's detect evil needs to be a swift action so that it doesn't waste an entire round of combat.
I have the same concern - but it's been the same forever. I guess they would rather the paladin spend a round considering his foes...or use their actions to judge whether or not they're evil. Even a swift or move action Detect Evil is not helpful, because it takes 2 rounds to note individual evils.
Second Smite Evil. I tried to use my whoping 1 use per day on the leader. rolled a 3 yippee. So my main class feature the defining ability of the paladin got one shot at lvl 2 and got wasted on a single miss.
I would agree that Smite is a...lackluster boost for paladins. Even if your smite had hit, you would have done two extra damage. Better than nothing...but not much. And at higher levels, the attack bonus as well as the damage bonus is near nothing. The changes to Power attack exacerbate this problem, because now the Paladin, who can't afford to build his strength up as high as a barbarian or fighter can because he has other important stats, can't turn that extra attack bonus, which he may not need, into reasonable amounts of extra damage.
I would like to note that the verbiage in Smite Evil that says your smite attempt is wasted if you miss is not in Pathfinder, however. If you miss on a Smite attempt now, you still can try again. If you hit a non-evil creature on an attempted Smite, however, you do lose the use for the day.
Third Lay on hands. Heal two hp, wow, awful. either we need to be able to use multiple lay on hands at once say three uses to heal 6 hp as a standard action, or the healing needs to be bumped.
You're right again. A paladin's abilities don't help him do his job, if you consider his job to be front line fighting / tanking. If you want him to be a Warrior with out of combat backup healing until 18th level...then he's just right.
I have another possible change to the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability - if Lay on Hands, even only for self healing, was a swift action, then while an individual heal wouldn't be terribly useful, you could do it every round to keep your damage down while you still fight. Another proposed rule change is allowing a paladin to spend a number of uses equal to his Charisma modifier in one round as a standard action. I played a Paladin 2 / Bard 1 in our playtest in Michigan before I moved to Texas this month, and found the paladin to be very similar to your experience.
Low level classes are just that- low level. None of them are particularly whiz-bang.
I am not going to defend the Paladin- I've never (note: Never) seen one in play, in 3.0, 3.5, or with the current rule set.
You have, however, made a direct decision to align your ability scores such that you will only notice your "power" at later levels. This is not really a problem with the class, so much as it is with your decision to boost spell casting over melee ability. This isn't a Bad decision- it's just one that you need to be aware of at level 1, since paladin don't get a good use for Wisdom until later in life.
Again- there is nothing Wrong with doing it this way- but you should be aware that you've made your first 3 levels very difficult. You are melee primary, spell casting secondary who has chosen to make spellcasting your primary.
If you are going to continue with this character (and I see no reason not to) I would recommend the following:
Buy a bow.
You are equally good with the bow as you are with a sword, except you can use it at range. You can't smite with it- but your smites are going to miss anyway. At least with a bow when you miss, they usually aren't able to hit you back.
Keep the bow. It'll be your friend for a long time. Use it until you get your magic, and keep it forever. Use it when your spells are gone, or when you just don't want to get close.
-S
i recently played a lvl 3 pally in what amounts to a really long oneshot, and i couldnt help but notice there wasnt much i could really do either.
i was a gnome and had a rather high armor class so i dealt even less damage then a usual pally. the smite helped a little but in the end it was still just one extra attack per day that did a few more damage on top of my already abysmal amount. i even lucked out everyone i attacked was evil since i never once used detect evil, just never had the time when it mattered. in fact almost every other game ive played in had a pally and ive never once seen detect evil used. maybe its just the group i play with but its just never came up. every time smite would be used it hit an evil creature, all you have to do is take the situation and creatures into account and bam instant detect evil. guy in bar fight, probly not evil; guy guarding evil cleric as they burn something down, more then likely evil. detect evil is just something that sits there alongside all the silent buffs.
and as for the lay of hands ability. i had to read the new one several times to get it. its just way more complicated with the charges and special options. im not a fan. especially now the remove disease and poison actually dig into the healing you can do. i liked them being separate. and since mr gnome was the only one with healing abilities in a party of three i have to say i noticed the lack of real healing abilities in battle. it got to the point if we thought it wasnt do it or death moments we would just wait till after the fight. otherwise it just wasnt really worth doing mid battle. in fact i think the end the only mid battle heal i did was one right before a voluntary 6 story fall on the hurt monk. and i still had to potion him up after the fall which reminds me :pally 1, monk with slowfall 0:
but ya thats my experience with a pally and let me leave you with one last note. a gnome opening a sharks mouth from the inside with a battle cry of "i want to live!" is pure funny.
(edit: holy crap i just realized i said pally the entire thing, forgive me for my WoW days XD)
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You have, however, made a direct decision to align your ability scores such that you will only notice your "power" at later levels. This is not really a problem with the class, so much as it is with your decision to boost spell casting over melee ability. This isn't a Bad decision- it's just one that you need to be aware of at level 1, since paladin don't get a good use for Wisdom until later in life.
I am aware of that, however I wasn't complaining that the pally was inefective at combat, In fact quite the oposite, with my high AC and good rolls with my heavy pick I was quite effective. The issue wasn't that I wasn't effective but rather that if I had been playing a Warrior NPC class you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. My character in no way felt like a holy warrior against evil because when it came down to it, I couldn't afford to waste an action to do anything palladiny.
And I am aware that no first level class is whiz bang, but I've built a fighter, a wizard, a monk, and a commoner as characters and a ton of NPCs and each class felt distinct (the commoner felt distinct specifically because of it's weakness) when in combat but the pally is the first character I've played that when playing I thought, wow this is just as if I was an NPC class.
Also I want to make it clear, I do not blame Jason or Pathfinder for this, I blame 3.x which has screwed the pally over since day one at low level.
EDIT: I saw this mentioned on another thread and need to bring it up. Our DM houseruled in 4+int skillpoints per level. This is good, since I had an 11 int, that meant if he hadn't given me the extra two my character would have had bubkus for skills, ride and spellcraft would've been it but now I have knowelege nobility and heal as well. This is a much needed change since loosing x4 at first level, Jason please make skill ranks at min 4+int
Wow - my new player just made a half-orc paladin, rolling 2d6+6 in order, and ended up with the exact same mental stats as you.
At second level, he is about the same as far as combat options go. He did use both detect evil and lay on hands - the latter in combat to prevent an opponent's death, and did get a good smite in.
My perspective is that a Paladin is built to fight EVIL, not just evil. Fighting goblins a Paladin will be relying primarily on his full base attack bonus and thick armor and shield to wade through them.
I do fully agree with you about Lay On Hands though. Perhaps there needed to be a limit of some kind (I typically saw it used as a once/day full heal only), but level hp is rarely enough to use in combat. I don't think it should be a swift action, but 2-3 uses at once would be reasonable. Charisma mod would be cool, but not needed as a limit. Wisdom would be a bad idea - some paladins only have 11 or lower Wisdom (spells, what spells?).
On the Skills front, he simply had two at first level, and picked two new ones at second and that's working fine. He plans two *more* new ones at third, before deciding which ones to boost.
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This is perhaps the twink in me somewhat, but wisdom would be the last stat you'd want with a paizo paladin, who doesn't use the stat even for spellcasting (now charisma based). Also, at 2nd level, there's not going to be a whole lot of stuff *any* character can do. LoH and Smite Evil are pretty decent when you've got a full bab and heavy armor to fall back on.
Thumbs up on the swift-action-evil-detection but besides that, i think perhaps you're asking for a lot out of a 2nd level character. What does he play like at 8th level?
--- Magis
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This is perhaps the twink in me somewhat, but wisdom would be the last stat you'd want with a paizo paladin, who doesn't use the stat even for spellcasting (now charisma based).
Bingo.
Also, at 2nd level, there's not going to be a whole lot of stuff *any* character can do. LoH and Smite Evil are pretty decent when you've got a full bab and heavy armor to fall back on.
Thumbs up on the swift-action-evil-detection but besides that, i think perhaps you're asking for a lot out of a 2nd level character. What does he play like at 8th level?
As a quick aside, a similar conversation has been going on here:
At 8th level, an 18 charisma paladin will have 8 Lay on Hand uses, good for 8 hit points each use. This is a level where a paladin could expect to face a young adult white dragon (cr 8) dealing 5d6 damage with a breath weapon every 1-4 rounds - or full attacks at a possible 2d6 + 5d8 + 14 damage ( not counting possible crits ). Or worse. Using a standard action to heal 8 hit points of damage is not going to be a useful way to spend a standard action in combat at level 8.
If the same paladin can use Lay on Hands to heal himself each round while fighting, then over the course of a minute of fighting, he can give himself 64 hit points. Or if he can spend a number of uses equal to his charisma modifier in a single standard action, he can heal himself of 32 points of damage in a round. These are at least possible choices, rather than obviously wasted actions.
I don't want the paladin to be better at fighting or even equal in fighting to a fighter. I want the paladin to excel at what the paladin used to excel at - staying a fight longer without needing healing.
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I actually had the opportunity to playtest an Alpha 3 Paladin a few weeks ago (Archade DM'ed & wrote a review on it, but don't ask me to link, I'm no good at web-fu). It was a Level 8 one shot with plenty of combat and evil to fight.
My experience is that Smite Evil 2/day is either too infrequent or too weak for what's supposed to be the signature ability of the class. It either needs to be usable more often or do more damage to really be worth while. Making it x/day +Cha bonus would be good for frequency, or doubling the existing damage would be fine for potency. Either Or, not both.
I liked the way Lay on Hands worked with respects to being able to trigger other healing effects, but I agree that it's not much good as an in-combat healing action. Why don't we try making the basic LOH a swift action and you can make it a standard or full rounder to spend more uses?
LOH was nicely supplimented by the healing effect of Channel Positive Energy, but Archade (rightly IMO) expressed frustration with the whole undead fleeing thing. It does make the game difficult to track for the DM.
The spells are unchanged and I'd glady sacrifice them for stronger aura powers. Something like a dragon shaman's would be ideal, but I've proposed that before. Bigger radius too. 10' encourages bunching and that can be fatal.
Not sure what to think about the bonded item. It's okay, but not super. Can't quite pinpoint why I'm not excited about it...
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We'll be playtesting a 5th level Paladin in our weekly game starting this Wednesday (since the player's previous character, a duskblade, was on the wrong end of a Lightning Bolt).
I find smite evil far too weak at almost every level. At 1st level, +1 point of damage once per day is not nearly enough. At 20th level, it's still insignificant compared to Favored Enemy, Weapon Training, or the monk's Stunning Fist.
I believe it should be at the current frequency, but do significant damage (either double damage, or an extra 1d8, plus another 1d8 per 4 levels, or something of that magnitude).
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It seems clear that a casual comparison between the sneak attack fighter variant and the paladin in 3.5 makes clear that smites are completely underpowered - far too rare and much too weak. Nothing has changed in Pathfinder, save that similar abilities, such as the barbarian's rage, are now usable far more often a day, and the paladin is still stuck in nowhereville.
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It seems clear that a casual comparison between the sneak attack fighter variant and the paladin in 3.5 makes clear that smites are completely underpowered - far too rare and much too weak. Nothing has changed in Pathfinder, save that similar abilities, such as the barbarian's rage, are now usable far more often a day, and the paladin is still stuck in nowhereville.
That about sums it up!
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I'm glad your playtest feedback mentions the lay on hands amount. I'm hoping this is addressed before the final rules are released. As I said before, I know the paladin gets a lot of out-of-combat healing at higher levels, and extra boosts of healing via channel positive energy at 4th, but I'd REALLY like to see the lay on hands healing ability have an in-combat role besides stabilize the dying. (allow max Cha mod healing uses in one touch!)
I'd also like to see more Smites at lower levels. I'll be playtesting a 4th level paladin in a couple months. We'll see how it goes.
Smite damage bonus is fine as written, though it may benefit from a scaling boost at higher levels (ex, 2 x CHA bonus at level 10, 3 x at 20 or something).
My personal fix to the #/day problem is to increase it to #/encounter. I took the idea from a paladin rebuild on the WotC boards (Onewinged4gel, I think).
Here's a link to the posted rebuild using PF beta guidelines. Let me know what you think.
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I'm playing a human paladin (Kaerthoryn) in the CotCT game - currently 3rd level - using the Alpha - just switched to the Beta rules. I made him the tower shield tank that stands and obstructs and doesn't really "hurt" the bad-guys too much - thanks to the penalty in fightign with a tower-shield - but mostly just serviceable in keeping them busy and staying alive long enough for our group tactics to wear them down and win the day in the end with me taking minimal damage. My main tactic was taking Imp Trip and building that up - perhaps I'm not hitting that often - but at least I could get someone on the ground and have a better chance at that point.
My thoughts:
1st - Combat Expertise still sucks, big time. My paladin didnt take it since I started with an 8 INT. (theres just not enough points to go around with a character with MAD - Multiple Ability-score Dependency). I really wanted Improved Trip - to be a staple point of my character's tactics. This was facilitated in Alpha rules - Combat Expertise was severely made insignifcant - but to compensate, Imp Trip (and the others) were removed from having to have CE as their Prereq (and thus not needing a 13 INT). Beta has kept CE still just as insignificant and now is once again the prereq for my feat - which I was forced to remove Imp Trip at the last weeks game - much to my chagrin. If CE was still a useful feat, I might feel differently about it been needed to get to Imp Trip - but its just impossible at this point. Back to having to find a way to live with sucking in combat....
2) Smite Evil - so I have one of those. I attacked an AC 18 Vampire Spawn and used my smite evil....rolled a 4. So much for my melee prowess that day. That expended my one use for the day, and I was about as ineffective in hitting them as wet noodle after that - the cleric was actually a better combatant at that point.
I feel that in order for the paladins smite evil to be any kind of true measure of melee prowess, it needs to a) - not get expended when you miss, and b), allow for dmg equal to 2 x Paladin level (but limit to only activating one per round); and c)increase the frequency of them - I believe CHA Mod + 1 at first level is much more appropriate - and then 1 more every four levels. While were on this, theres a feat in Beta for EXTRA - lay on hands, Ki, Turning, Raging etc...no Extra Smite.
3) Lay on Hands - very insignificant. I can heal 3 points with a standard action - considering the party members have more hit points thanks to increased hit dice; the 6 bonus hit points at first level, and the bonus hit point per level - the party has ALOT of hit points to heal......spending my action to heal 3 of it just seemed silly considering the vampire spawn were trying to dominate folks....
I'm not sure how to fix this. I'm thinking healing CHA mod x Pal level - that could get stoopid at 15th level with a 22 CHA healing 90 points; but maybe thats a maximum amount of hit points per day that can be healed.....don't know.
I do love that LoH will heal/cure other maladies eventually - absolutley killer abilities - but healing hit points is just way under par.
Perhaps the lay on hands works like a Cure Lt Wounds for a while - which then just progress to Cure Mod etc as he advances in level - still each only using one use per activation - but at least it's scaling appropriately. I'm thinking at 3rd level - having 4 cure lt woudns is actually pretty noteworthy! At 6th or so when you gain a new ability to heal - it switches to Cure mods..... just some thoughts..
4) Skill points still at 2 (-1 for INT, +1 for Human), I have maxed out Diplomacy and Use Magic Device. I figured the latter may be handy some time down the road to give him just a little more diversity.
All in all - I made via my equipment - Kaerthoryn tough to take down. Unfortunately so far he has not been any sort of help in any other arena except in his use of diplomacy - but in combat I pretty much dont do anything. This may change later - but so far it's not worth writing about - and it doesn't look much different at fourth except I'll be able to chanel positive energy and be able to actually heal people
Like someone said earlier - most of this are issues that have been around for years and certainly no fault of Paizo or Jason - but they still exist, and I love paladins but I am left with a unfun taste in my mouth when I see the rogue, the cleric, and the wizard all with really cool features making even their low-levels fun.....and effective.
Robert
To be completely honest I think the best possible fix for smite evil is that it is constantly active, but slightly changed. Still add your Char bonus to hit evil, and half your level to damage against evil. Look at the new fighters, they are gaining a constant + to hit and damage which maxes at 4 but it works against everything, not just evil. Evil things should fear paladins, it is as simple as that.
As for Detect evil I agree with the swift action part.
And LOH should be usable = to your charisma mod.
Those changes there would actually make the paladin what it should be, a Holy Warrior.
Even at 10th level paladin, lay on hands is for out of combat healing. You need to take the feat Selective Channeling to make combat healing work, but you can do it... as long as someone else does the combat part. Just channel energy.
If lay on hands is supposed to be an out of combat effect, it works.
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If lay on hands is supposed to be an out of combat effect, it works.
I never thought of lay on hands as an out of combat heal, In fact until pathfinder I never would have thought of it as such nor seen it used in play as such. And even out of combat it doesn't really do much, in order to heal my pally up I would need to use up all my lay on hands, roll a maxed heal check and I would still be three hp short of my hp total, I know it isn't Jason's intent to make sure every party ever has a cleric in it. But at the rate all healing other than clerical works in pathfinder its what is going to happen.
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The general opinion appears to be that smite is too little, too infrequently. The Barbarian gets its rage for 3+Con rounds, so why not make smite a similar mechanic? Something like this:
Smite Evil: Once per day, the paladin can channel the power of his diety to become the bane of evil foes. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect. This effect lasts for 3 + Charisma Modifier rounds.
At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.
My suggestion would be to have smites and channel energy (turn attempts) work from the same pool, available at level 1, and get rid of "lay on hands" uses, substituting channel energy instead for healing. Smites would do the same damage as channel energy heals: 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels. Easy, and consistent.
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My suggestion would be to have smites and channel energy (turn attempts) work from the same pool, available at level 1, and get rid of "lay on hands" uses, substituting channel energy instead for healing. Smites would do the same damage as channel energy heals: 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels. Easy, and consistent.
This option exactly matches the Turning Smite feat, for the record.
My suggestion would be to have smites and channel energy (turn attempts) work from the same pool, available at level 1, and get rid of "lay on hands" uses, substituting channel energy instead for healing. Smites would do the same damage as channel energy heals: 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels. Easy, and consistent.This option exactly matches the Turning Smite feat, for the record.
Not exactly -- using turning smite, a paladin can only heal his (non-undead) enemies, not hurt them!
I had forgotten about that feat, though.
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Yeah, good point. I have a tendency to think about smites solely in the context of undead and outsiders, since those are the situations they tend to get used in furing my games. Still, the parallel is pretty strong. One difference, and this would be a good thing in my opinion, is that Turning Smite allows ranged attacks as well as melee attacks to channel the smite, and I really, *really* think paladins should be able to perform ranged smites if their deity's favored weapon is a ranged weapon.
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I have been playing with a paladin in our test group and here is what we've come up with.
We've tested with gorups at lvl 1, 5, 10, and 15th lvls.
In regards to the paladin,
I found that Detect Evil was a very good roleplaying ability, but one that didnt get used in combat as much. This made sence to us. It feels like a roleplay ability to us.
Smite Evil is an ability that needs more uses per day at the lower levels. Even with it NOT being used when the target is missed, it was something that didnt feel very "signature" when it could only be used once or twice a day. We fixed this by creating an "Extra Smiting" feat, that works just like "Extra Turning". Gave the player +2 smite attempts per day. I did allow it to be taken multiple times, but my players only took it once so this might be a non-issue but i see it as a chance for someone to focus on a smiting paladin if they wanted.
Lay on Hands worked great out of combat. I think this is an ability who's functionality depends on an individuals role for the class. I see the ability to heal out of combat as a very good roleplay ability, just like Detect Evil. I see it as a way to stabalize dieing comrads. I dont see it as a dump heal to heal the pally durring a fight. So on those terms, i see it working much better this way. But i can see how people who used it as a dump heal to keep themselves alive would feel it is broken. I dont see a paladin using it that way, personaly. IMHO that seems a selfish way to use the gift, sometimes necisary, but not as its primary use. *Shrug* just my roleplaying side of things.
Just my 2 cp.
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I have been playing with a paladin in our test group and here is what we've come up with.
We've tested with gorups at lvl 1, 5, 10, and 15th lvls.
In regards to the paladin,
I found that Detect Evil was a very good roleplaying ability, but one that didnt get used in combat as much. This makes sence to us, but it did get A LOT of out of combat and roleplaying use.Smite Evil is an ability that needs more uses per day at the lower levels. Even with it NOT being used when the target is missed, it was something that didnt feel very "signature" when it could only be used once or twice a day. We fixed this by creating an "Extra Smiting" feat, that works just like "Extra Turning". Gave the player +2 smite attempts per day. I did allow it to be taken multiple times, but my players only took it once so this might be a non-issue but i see it as a chance for someone to focus on a smiting paladin if they wanted.
Lay on Hands worked great out of combat. I think this is an ability who's functionality depends on an individuals role for the class. I see the ability to heal out of combat as a very good roleplay ability, just like Detect Evil. I see it as a way to stabalize dieing comrads. I dont see it as a dump heal to heal the pally durring a fight. So on those terms, i see it working much better this way. But i can see how people who used it as a dump heal to keep themselves alive would feel it is broken. I dont see a paladin using it that way, personaly. IMHO that seems a selfish way to use the gift, sometimes necisary, but not as its primary use. *Shrug* just my roleplaying side of things.
Just my 2 cp.
Ok, I understand your arguments but they make a lot of assumptions
Detect evil, yes it is a good roleplay ability, but not every group is roleplay oriented, a dungeon delve group or a monty haul group aren't getting any utility out of the ability, and switching it to a swift action doesn't limit it's roleplaying effectiveness.
I actually agree with you on the smite evil and was upset that I could get extra lay on hands but not extra smiting.
I have already posted how it wasn't much more use out of combat either since even using it completely up and making a heal check wouldn't have gotten me completely healed. And who says that needing it for extra healing in combat means it is going to only be used on the pally, is bending over to revive your fallen ally (not stabilize, but bring to conciousness) not in the nature of a paladin? yes in that specific scenario I needed it for myself, but there are plenty of times where lay on hands can be useful to save others in combat, but instead its a fancy stabilize spell until about say 8th level.
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I have been playing with a paladin in our test group and here is what we've come up with.
We've tested with gorups at lvl 1, 5, 10, and 15th lvls.
In regards to the paladin,
I found that Detect Evil was a very good roleplaying ability, but one that didnt get used in combat as much. This made sence to us. It feels like a roleplay ability to us.Smite Evil is an ability that needs more uses per day at the lower levels. Even with it NOT being used when the target is missed, it was something that didnt feel very "signature" when it could only be used once or twice a day. We fixed this by creating an "Extra Smiting" feat, that works just like "Extra Turning". Gave the player +2 smite attempts per day. I did allow it to be taken multiple times, but my players only took it once so this might be a non-issue but i see it as a chance for someone to focus on a smiting paladin if they wanted.
Just my 2 cp.
I've always seen Detect Evil more for the roleplaying too. Players tend to abuse it a lot in dungeons - I think the detect spells (Evil, magic) need to be rewritten to be line of sight - for a first level spell to be able to be used through dungeon doors etc is too powerfum IMO - especially with powers that are "at will" (but thats' for a different thread)
I mentioned in a previous post my similar dismay that there was no Extra Smiting feat - which may just be an oversight - I have they add that. 2 more per day sounds appropriate. I'll be adding just such a feat for my games.
The smite evil seems to be the only offensive benefit of the paladin. The barbarians have rage and all the rage abilities they can do during, the fighter with their myriad of feats and weapon training etc become death-dealers, and even rangers with the myriad of specialized feats make them far more potent at doing damage.
To have the smite once or twice a day for many levels that do very little and get wasted on a bad die-roll is just simply insignificant - and once that's out of the way, the Paladin is much more feeble than all three of the other full BAB at hurting enemies - yes they'll probably survive longer due to AC and saves, and eventual immunities, but the certainly don't post much of a threat - their spells do help offset this a little, but those are very limited, infrequent, and you need to have many levels invested to get some good ones.
Once my paladin Kaerthoryn is the right level, he will have Divine Favor always memorized.
Robert
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The general opinion appears to be that smite is too little, too infrequently. The Barbarian gets its rage for 3+Con rounds, so why not make smite a similar mechanic? Something like this:
Smite Evil: Once per day, the paladin can channel the power of his diety to become the bane of evil foes. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect. This effect lasts for 3 + Charisma Modifier rounds.
At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.
That is an excellent suggestion. I mean EXCELLENT suggestion!!!
To me, that makes more sense than trying to add alot of extra smites for the day.
Robert
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I was thinking of an attack bonus instead of damage as well, but my only concern is that it's too powerful at early levels. For most players, that will probably end up a +2 or +3 Cha bonus that could top up the starting AB to +5 - +7 (assuming maximization of Str for the fighter build as well). That's a very big attack bonus for a level one character.That is an excellent suggestion. I mean EXCELLENT suggestion!!!
To me, that makes more sense than trying to add alot of extra smites for the day.
It wouldn't top a similarly focused barbarian in a rage, which is what the better comparison is here, since it's a limited-use effect. Even if it did slightly, though, the fact that it is only useful against evil opponents - and there are a lot of non-evil opponents at low levels, what with dire rats and spider swarms and the like - weakens it further.
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Ok, I understand your arguments but they make a lot of assumptions
Detect evil, yes it is a good roleplay ability, but not every group is roleplay oriented, a dungeon delve group or a monty haul group aren't getting any utility out of the ability, and switching it to a swift action doesn't limit it's roleplaying effectiveness.
Yes, i am making some assumptions. It has to do with playstyle and purpose. I honestly think there are some classes which are more roleplaying oriented and then there are classes which are more dungeon delve/monty haul oriented. This is something Paizo will have to adress, what they see as the purpose of the class is. But to me, the Paladin has always been a roleplay heavy class. It has the most restrictions and such of any core class an requires a much stricter view of gameplay. It even started out as a prestige class, which i think shows that it was supposed to be roleplay heavy. So on those grounds I think it is perfectly fair for it to have abilities that play to that roleplaying ideal more than the dungeon delving ideal. If you want to dungeon delve, dont take a class that has roleplay aspects (the special mount comes to mind as well here). Pick something more suited to dungeon delving.
And i have no issues making it a swift action to activate. But then i agree that it needs to be limited. The standard action still takes 2 rounds to pinpoint specific evil. If you just wanted to turn it on as a swift action and then spend time concentraiting, that seems just fine to me but not have it activate fully as a swift action.
I dont mean to attack your playstyle with this. Just trying to explain where my comments are coming from and why.
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First, I agree with you that the Paladin is a role-play heavy class. The problem then becomes: does a Paladin encourage the type of play that it's designed for?I'd argue it doesn't. Druids can pull off the Holy Fighter-Priest thing better than Paladins. Clerics do Priest-healer better and can beef up fighting capability with spells.
As a holy warrior,imo, the Paladin suffers from lack of complimentary abilities. The Aura of Good doesn't assist in courtly situations and barely offers benefits in a fight. Their fighting ability is less than inspirational or legendary and subpar for smiting the evils they're said to smite.
players playing paladins should want to throw their character at unabashed evil partially because its the right thing to do, but also because they can do something about it. or if not in a fight, the Paladin character should be able to let his piety speak for him in some fashion. essentially the player should have an incentive to play those aspects up instead of leaving it just to role-play motivation imo.
I totaly agree with you NeoS. I have always been one to say that Paladins should be the holy fighters, and the clerics should be the holy casters. I think part of this problem comes from bringing a cleric/fighter prestige class into a base class possition. If i was redesigning from the ground up, i'd strip clerics of heavy armor, if not medium as well. Force them to play more like wizards in light armor but using holy/healing magic. And give alot of their combat ability to make the paladin unique. As it stands the two tend to step on each others toes alot.
My answer for this would be to make smite more intrinsic to how the paladin fights. I think against evil foes, the paladin should shine above the fighter, but against non-evil foes, he should be a fighter with less feats. (Only way i can think to explain it atm.) To preserve backwards compatibility about the only thing i can think of is to let him use smite alot more. But if we wanted to change it up a bit, i'd give the same treatment to Pallys that Barbarians got. Give them a "Holy Point" pool to spend from, letting them spend it on lay on hands, smiting, and auras. Combining all these abilities into a point system would hurt backwards compatibility, but i think would adress alot of the cleric/paladin foot stomping thats going on.
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I considered that as an option as well. Wasn't sure how effective it would be in comparison.
Well, would depend on how totally they redesigned it. My thoughts would be we would have to totally re-due how Smite, LoH, and the auras worked.
LoH would be something like
Lay On Hands By spending 2 Holy Points the paladin may touch a target, healing them for 1d4+lvl hit points.
*Maybe by spending extra points they can increase the D4 count. This would be like Cure Light Wounds, but less effective. But they could do it more if they focused on spending the points.
Smite would be something similar
Smite By spending 3 Holy Points the paladin imbues his weapon with his righteous fury. He gains his charisma modifier to his attack and damage rolls against evil targets this round.
*Again, all up for balancing. Should be somewhat helpful, but not overpowering.
Then we use the aura's he gets later on the same way, making them cost points to activate, then an additional point per round to keep them active or something. We could also add in lower level auras if we wanted. Granted, this would be a significant overhaul for the paladin and would greatly hinder backwards compatibility. But i think might make it more appealing over all to a lot of people.
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Here are my suggestions:
* Detect Evil (3 + Level) number of times per day, as a Free Action.
* LoH: (3 + Cha + Wis), (1/2 Lvl) number of times per day.
* Smite: +(Wis) to hit, +(Cha) to Damage (1/2 Lvl) number of times per day.
I'd love your feedback.
Thanks,
no thanks.
we just convinced the designers to remove WIS from the multiple stat dependency of the character......re-instituting it is a move in the wrong direction.
Robert
Here are my suggestions:
* Detect Evil (3 + Level) number of times per day, as a Free Action.
* LoH: (3 + Cha + Wis), (1/2 Lvl) number of times per day.
* Smite: +(Wis) to hit, +(Cha) to Damage (1/2 Lvl) number of times per day.
I'd love your feedback.
Thanks,
no thanks.
we just convinced the designers to remove WIS from the multiple stat dependency of the character......re-instituting it is a move in the wrong direction.
Robert
Why not replace Wis with Con?
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I was thinking of an attack bonus instead of damage as well, but my only concern is that it's too powerful at early levels. For most players, that will probably end up a +2 or +3 Cha bonus that could top up the starting AB to +5 - +7 (assuming maximization of Str for the fighter build as well). That's a very big attack bonus for a level one character.That is an excellent suggestion. I mean EXCELLENT suggestion!!!
To me, that makes more sense than trying to add alot of extra smites for the day.
Assuming a 16 in both STR and CHA to start - which is realistic and definitly will be a damper on most of the other stats, that would be +7 against evil only (which is probably 75% of the encounters) for 1 x day at 1st level for a few rounds. That is a good bonus - but it's very limited on # uses, and duration, and against certain targets.
Compared to the fighter:
18 STR, and Weapon focus, is only one less all the time, all day every day against all creatures.
Compared to the Barbarian - with a 20 STR to start without weapon focus, its the same bonus of the fighter, until the barbarian gets to apply it's coup d' grace ability of Rage, which bumps the STR to 24 giving it a +1 more than the paladin against all creatures than the paladin would get during it's 1 x day smite for 5 rounds;
Compared to the Ranger with 18 DEX , point blank shot and rapid shot would get have a little more than half the bonus to attack rolls on a full attack (rapid shot) but do twice the damage if rapid shot hit and wont be in melee (theoretically) which can be done all the time against all targets as often as he wants; (and its not implausible to say 20 DEX for an elf meaning its attack rolls are only 2 less than the paladin in question when it's smiting - while using the rangers Rapid Shot penalty to attack rolls.)
I think that its pretty fair in comparison - and if it's not - it isn't far off the mark.
(all examples based on 1st level assumption).
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Why not replace Wis with Con?Here are my suggestions:
* Detect Evil (3 + Level) number of times per day, as a Free Action.
* LoH: (3 + Cha + Wis), (1/2 Lvl) number of times per day.
* Smite: +(Wis) to hit, +(Cha) to Damage (1/2 Lvl) number of times per day.
I'd love your feedback.
Thanks,
no thanks.
we just convinced the designers to remove WIS from the multiple stat dependency of the character......re-instituting it is a move in the wrong direction.
Robert
Why not keep the mechanic as it is - most of us don't have a problem with the mechanic - just the frequency of it's use.
Robert
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I dont mean to attack your playstyle with this. Just trying to explain where my comments are coming from and why.
Not my playstyle, I'm a heavy RPer, I just don't think class design should be aproached from a specific playstyle mindset. I have no problem with a character having roleplay abilities and combat abilities, but one should not overthrow the other, and so far the Pally is the only class I've played where it does. And for the record we were fighting all evil goblins. So I should've shined in that combat, but even facing all evil creatures I was a warrior not a palladin in combat.
A couple of things to think about. Most everything you guys are talking about has already been done in 3.5, and since Pathfinder is backwards compatible there is no reason to not use these fixes. They aren’t perfect, but they will help. Most of these come from Feats, and the increase in feats per character will make getting some of these more doable.
Increase Smite Damage: Use the feat from Complete Divine, Improved Smiting. It increases damage +1d6 and ignores DR. Not insanely powerful, but at 1st level it would bring a longsword (with let’s say Str 16, Charisma 14) up to +6 to hit and doing 1d8+4 +1d6 damage minimum 6 points and maximum 18 points. Much better than d8 +4
Add to that the old Smite Evil/Power Attack Combo. Negate the Power Attack by your Charisma bonus each time you use it. Sure you get no increase to hit, but the increase in damage should help.
By 4th level you could do the Smite Evil/Power Attack/Divine Might combo: Additional -1 to hit but a +d6+9 to damage. And that’s with a 14 Charisma and a one handed weapon.
Extra Smiting (Complete Warrior) increases the number of times per day you can Smite by 2. You can’t take this one until 4th level.
Increase Healing: Extra Lay on Hands brings up the number of times you can use the ability but there isn’t anything I know to increase the amount. However, even without any feats, you can use this a goodly number of times per day anyways. And yeah at 2nd level it sort of sucks, but you aren’t a Cleric. End of story. You can still heal people 6 hit points a day (Chr 14), better than any fighter.
Once you get up a few levels you radically change though. At 4th level you get Channel Positive Energy (at least 2 times a day) and 1 spell (Cure Light D8+4). You can take Extra Turning to increase the number of times to use this. Not as impressive as a Cleric, but again you’re not a Cleric. And by this point your Lay on Hands is healing 4 points each use.
Working with a Cleric/Bard you can use Sacred Boost to maximize any healing spells cast with in a round.
By 5th Level you can take Sacred Healing (Complete Divine) Fast Healing 3 for the party for rounds equal to Chr bonus.
General Feats to increase the Paladin (all from Complete Warrior) There are others, but these are my favorites.
Divine Might: Chr bonus to damage
Divine Shield: Chr bonus to AC
Divine Vigor: +2 temp hit points per level and +10’ to speed
Sacred Vengeance: +2d6 damage to all attacks in one round to against undead.
Now none of these are perfect, but they do help.
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Kinda wondering if Detect Evil should drift outside of the realm of active sensor and into the realm of passive. Or, maybe a combination of both. Perhaps, if a paladin is attempting to sense a room, it would go the way it does currently, but, if a paladin comes into direct contact ... BAMM. Just like in the movie Unbreakable.
Food for thought.
EDIT:
The more I think about this, the more I like it. Role-playing: A paladin is informed a local nobel is going to be assassinated this evening at the royal gala. Standing off to the side, he begins to concentrate ... Combat: The party charges the big evil guy, and commences to lay down the smack. Unbeknownst to all, this is actually a pretty nasty demon in human form. As the paladin makes contact, she's staggered by the horrors that her mind has been violently exposed to. The BBEG smiles, "Ah! And what have we here, sweetness? Have you tasted of my darkness? Come, taste more!" She gathers her will about her, face determined as she summons the will of her goddess ...
Yeah. Probably way overpowered for the general public, but I don't play like y'all do. Expect it to be house-ruled in my games like that from here forward.
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Robert: I agree. Thats how I fixed it in my campaigns. Just made the extra smiting feat available. I was simply trying to adress some of the issues other people were having.
LastKnight: I agree, I dont think a class should have issues w/ more roleplay than crunch. I'm the first to argue that they should AT LEAST get more smites. Just see this as an issue of trying to make a PrC into a base class. It just doest work well. I think we should have left the Paladin a PrC along side the Blackguard. That being said, there is no reason we cant try to make the best out of what we have. =) Cheers!
MikeSmith: Yes, using splat books we can do all these things. Your totaly right. My discussion at least was focused on how to use core books to make it work well with the other classes, not borrow heavily from the old material to make it function. Yes its backwards compatible, but all those books are out of print, and we should at least be able to create a basic class that balances with the rest. I like the paladin. I'm not against him. Just discussing how I think it could be better. Not that those aren't awsome ideas. They are feats I usually suggested myself to my players.
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A couple of things to think about. Most everything you guys are talking about has already been done in 3.5, and since Pathfinder is backwards compatible there is no reason to not use these fixes. They aren’t perfect, but they will help. Most of these come from Feats, and the increase in feats per character will make getting some of these more doable.
except that not everyone has the splatbooks, so some effort needs to be put into the class itself.
Increase Smite Damage: Use the feat from Complete Divine, Improved Smiting. It increases damage +1d6 and ignores DR. Not insanely powerful, but at 1st level it would bring a longsword (with let’s say Str 16, Charisma 14) up to +6 to hit and doing 1d8+4 +1d6 damage minimum 6 points and maximum 18 points. Much better than d8 +4
nothing to say to this see first statement.
Add to that the old Smite Evil/Power Attack Combo. Negate the Power Attack by your Charisma bonus each time you use it. Sure you get no increase to hit, but the increase in damage should help.
if you see my OP my character doesn't have the str to take this feat. a fix that can't be used isn't a fix.
By 4th level you could do the Smite Evil/Power Attack/Divine Might combo: Additional -1 to hit but a +d6+9 to damage. And that’s with a 14 Charisma and a one handed weapon.
see above.
Extra Smiting (Complete Warrior) increases the number of times per day you can Smite by 2. You can’t take this one until 4th level.At 4th level you get spells and start getting options that assist during combat, I'm aware that things'll get better at higher level, but I don't want to feel like I have a lot of wasted class features at low level. No one jumps on the forums and says my spells aren't useful, my bardic music isn't useful, my sneak attack isn't useful. but the 1-3 level paladin has 3 abilities for combat that aren't useful and 1 ability that is marginally useful.
Increase Healing: Extra Lay on Hands brings up the number of times you can use the ability but there isn’t anything I know to increase the amount. However, even without any feats, you can use this a goodly number of times per day anyways. And yeah at 2nd level it sort of sucks, but you aren’t a Cleric. End of story. You can still heal people 6 hit points a day (Chr 14), better than any fighter.
Once you get up a few levels you radically change though. At 4th level you get Channel Positive Energy (at least 2 times a day) and 1 spell (Cure Light D8+4). You can take Extra Turning to increase the number of times to use this. Not as impressive as a Cleric, but again you’re not a Cleric. And by this point your Lay on Hands is healing 4 points each use.
Okay once again this isn't talking about a mid/high level paladin. We are focusing on low levels. The pally is the only guy who has no real benefit to combat until level 4. Now as to low level, 6 hp a day is one-two hits at best. and that's fine if it wasn't 1-2 hits healed after combat. I don't want a pally to be a cleric, but it would be nice once again if he wasn't an NPC warrior until level 4.
Once you get up a few levels you radically change though. At 4th level you get Channel Positive Energy (at least 2 times a day) and 1 spell (Cure Light D8+4). You can take Extra Turning to increase the number of times to use this. Not as impressive as a Cleric, but again you’re not a Cleric. And by this point your Lay on Hands is healing 4 points each use.
Working with a Cleric/Bard you can use Sacred Boost to maximize any healing spells cast with in a round.
By 5th Level you can take Sacred Healing (Complete Divine) Fast Healing 3 for the party for rounds equal to Chr bonus.
General Feats to increase the Paladin (all from Complete Warrior) There are others, but these are my favorites.
Divine Might: Chr bonus to damage
Divine Shield: Chr bonus to AC
Divine Vigor: +2 temp hit points per level and +10’ to speed
Sacred Vengeance: +2d6 damage to all attacks in one round to against undead.Now none of these are perfect, but they do help.
I'm actually well aware of all the options available I have all of the completes. and they are allowed in my game. But there are core only games out there, there are games that don't have CD and CC (which are must haves to have a cool pally) and once again this isn't an issue once you hit level 4 palladins get cool and useful starting around that time. I just think that it's sad that the class has to get through 3 levels to be a meaningful combat contributor (moreso than an NPC class) in a game that is even with roleplay a combat focused game.
And that's not to say he doesn't do well in combat, it's that an NPC warrior does just as well, except for 1 strike that lasts 1 round and may get missed and used up completely.|
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Oh and by the way, getting rid of the line, "this ability is used up on a miss." isn't the same as saying "this ability is not used up on a miss." When we read through the Pathfinder guide for smite since it didn't say either way I took it as being used up on a miss just because it's part of the attack roll, having never played a pally before I was looking only at the pathfinder. It needs to specifically say "this ability is not used up on a miss" otherwise it's open to interpretation by DM.
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Kinda wondering if Detect Evil should drift outside of the realm of active sensor and into the realm of passive. Or, maybe a combination of both. Perhaps, if a paladin is attempting to sense a room, it would go the way it does currently, but, if a paladin comes into direct contact ... BAMM. Just like in the movie Unbreakable.
Food for thought.
EDIT:
The more I think about this, the more I like it. Role-playing: A paladin is informed a local nobel is going to be assassinated this evening at the royal gala. Standing off to the side, he begins to concentrate ... Combat: The party charges the big evil guy, and commences to lay down the smack. Unbeknownst to all, this is actually a pretty nasty demon in human form. As the paladin makes contact, she's staggered by the horrors that her mind has been violently exposed to. The BBEG smiles, "Ah! And what have we here, sweetness? Have you tasted of my darkness? Come, taste more!" She gathers her will about her, face determined as she summons the will of her goddess ...
Yeah. Probably way overpowered for the general public, but I don't play like y'all do. Expect it to be house-ruled in my games like that from here forward.
Actually, one of my players just set about making a Paladin, and we had a brief talk about detect evil (paladin style). Given all his other fancy auras, we started wondering: what if detect evil was an aura?
We came up with:
Detect Evil [Su]: The paladin is surrounded by an aura in a radius of 10 feet that can detect evil. If a creature inside the detect evil aura attacks the paladin (directly or indirectly, such as with an area effect spell), uses an evil item, or casts an evil spell, then the paladin automatically detects whether or not that creature, item, or spell is evil (or some combination of the above). If an evil effect is targeted into the aura, the paladin becomes aware of this as well. The paladin cannot determine the strength of the evil aura, only that it exists and what it is. This ability functions only if the Paladin is conscious.
For example, a Hezrou uses blasphemy into the Paladin's aura from a distance of 30 feet. The Paladin cannot determine that the Hezrou is evil, but the effect of the spell (regardless of whether the Paladin knows what spell it is or not) is automatically detected as evil.
If the Hezrou moves within 10ft of the Paladin, it does not automatically detect as evil. If it attacks the Paladin with a claw attack, it is automatically detected as evil. If it attacks an ally with a claw attack, this does not allow the paladin to detect its evil aura. If it again uses blasphemy, and the Paladin is affected by it, the Hezrou and the spell are both detected as evil. If the Hezrou possessed a wand of blasphemy, and used it on the Paladin from within 10 feet, then the Hezrou, wand, and spell effect are detected as evil.
Detect Evil is added to the Paladin's spell list as a 1st level spell.