I just read the page 194 of the PDF document and the text under Arcane Schools.
Am I crazy or does this give an unfair advantage to wizards over sorcerers?
So wizards get an additional spell (of their choice) per spell level in addition to all the other goodies they get, while Sorcerers get a couple of fixed extra spells on their list.
This way wizards get all the flexibility and have almost as many spells per day as Sorcerers. As specialists they also get to cast their extra spell even if using prohibited school spells, and universalist just gains one more spell per spell level.
I do not see this balanced with Sorcerers lagging one character level in acquiring new spell levels. I do not see a clear advantage for Sorcerers that compensates for their disadvantage.
I just checked both classes again and with this change to wizards, in the end wizard just lag one spell to cast per spell level.
Even on lvl 6 the difference is small.
Wizards 3+1,3+1,2+1, Sorcerers 6,5,3
i dont like the prohibited schools rules... The wizard became too powerful.
> no XPs cost for Scroll ( and magic item )
(so only gold limitation for a lot of spell)
> no real prohibited school
> at will power
> lot of spell ...
...
I think give the sorcerer few spell from their bloodline (add to the "spell known" and not to "spell avaible") and re-introduice the prohibited school will balance the game
The spells Sorcerers get as part of the bloodline already go to the spells known list.
But that would have been a good boost if wizards didn't get additional benefits.
This way Sorcerers are still noticeable weaker.
I agree with Archangel, the Wizard is getting too much spells per day, compared to a Sorcerer. Specifically, the 1st level spell is a bit broken; a generalist or an evoker specialist can, for example, take Magic Missile and cast it as a bonus spell up to 10 times per day (at 20th level), giving him essentially twice the slots a Sorcerer gets for the same level. A Sorcerer should at least get some more spells known (adding to that of the Bloodline) and/or get ridden of the "one-level lag" that basically forces him to take a spell level one class level after the Wizard...
It's not much of a surprise that the Wizard comes out ahead - he always has been, and it'd be a significant overhaul to fix the disparity. I think that Pathfinder's narrowed the gap by giving the sorcerer some extra abilities, but I know that they're still not equals.
What's funny is one of my friends lamenting that the Beta has made sorcerers better than wizards. Not sure where he gets that idea...
It's not much of a surprise that the Wizard comes out ahead - he always has been, and it'd be a significant overhaul to fix the disparity. I think that Pathfinder's narrowed the gap by giving the sorcerer some extra abilities, but I know that they're still not equals.
What's funny is one of my friends lamenting that the Beta has made sorcerers better than wizards. Not sure where he gets that idea...
Actually Alpha 3 made the gap smaller, the Beta has just returned it to the previous state (3.5e)
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I think the classes are not very far apart. In my experience Sorcerers are the ones who have always been more powerful because the Vancian system favors spontaneous casters over prepared casters. The sorcerers ability to spontaneously apply metamagic feats however it suits them makes it even worse. The trade off has always been that the Wizard is more versatile and gets spells one level sooner. Now with bloodline powers (sorcerers get 5 supernatural abilities), bonus spells every few levels, bonus feats based on bloodline, and so on, the Sorcerer is every bit as strong and in my own opinion stronger than the Wizard. The bonus spells for the Wizard were a needed addition for a class whose staying power is not very good. Sure the Wizard can go Nova and if you stop and rest for the day after a few battles he is by far better than the Sorcerer, but if resource allocation is important at all in your games the Sorcerer will almost always come out on top in most players minds. Ask a random sampling of 3.5 players which they would rather play, the Sorcerer or the Wizard and I would be willing to bet than probably 7 out of 10 would pick Sorcerer.
I think the classes are not very far apart. In my experience Sorcerers are the ones who have always been more powerful because the Vancian system favors spontaneous casters over prepared casters. The sorcerers ability to spontaneously apply metamagic feats however it suits them makes it even worse. The trade off has always been that the Wizard is more versatile and gets spells one level sooner. Now with bloodline powers (sorcerers get 5 supernatural abilities), bonus spells every few levels, bonus feats based on bloodline, and so on, the Sorcerer is every bit as strong and in my own opinion stronger than the Wizard. The bonus spells for the Wizard were a needed addition for a class whose staying power is not very good. Sure the Wizard can go Nova and if you stop and rest for the day after a few battles he is by far better than the Sorcerer, but if resource allocation is important at all in your games the Sorcerer will almost always come out on top in most players minds. Ask a random sampling of 3.5 players which they would rather play, the Sorcerer or the Wizard and I would be willing to bet than probably 7 out of 10 would pick Sorcerer.
And if you asked to why, they would say it is because of the bookkeeping wizards ask for. This is the reason why I do not like to play then in PnP as well, but do enjoy to try them in cRPGs.
Well, I for one have always liked the Sorcerer more than the Wizard, even without the improvements that Pathfinder gave to the former. When I saw the Bloodlines in the Alpha version, I screamed "Oh, my! This is really great!", 'cause it made the Sorcerer even more interesting. My only concern is that even the Wizard has taken some boosts, and some of them are a bit too good.
I would eliminate the Generalist Wizard and force EVERY Wizard to choose a specialization - since a specialist doesn't lose anything (apart some small features - Evoker, anybody ?...), while the Generalist versatility and powers are extremely good.
I'm in full agreement with Brent here.
The Wizard has gained virtually *nothing* substantial in the Beta. Except for Univeralist wizards (who no one played in my campaigns, ever, for 8 years), they get no more spells per day than in 3.5 - unless you include their extra *first* level spells... really.
Arcane bond is pretty strong - though one loses your familiar if you take it. But far less so with the removal of half crafting cost. And it is also an option for Sorcerers though. They gain an 8th level ability but lose a 4th level spell.
Sorcerers gained 9 more spells known - about a 30% increase, 4 bonus feats, and more bloodline powers than wizards get school powers. They can also Quicken their spells now.
The additional spells known is the real kicker. The big liability of choosing Sorcerer over Wizard was potential for having no spells to deal with a situation that you could see coming in advance. A wizard can prepare new spells, a sorcerer cannot. But with the huge increase in spells known, a Sorcerer loses a great deal of that disadvantage, able to diversify much more.
Bottom line, Sorcerers gained more than Wizards did. If you called Wizards more powerful before, then perhaps they still are. I thought them rather equal before.
I'm in full agreement with Brent here.
The Wizard has gained virtually *nothing* substantial in the Beta. Except for Univeralist wizards (who no one played in my campaigns, ever, for 8 years), they get no more spells per day than in 3.5 - unless you include their extra *first* level spells... really.
Arcane bond is pretty strong - though one loses your familiar if you take it. But far less so with the removal of half crafting cost. And it is also an option for Sorcerers though. They gain an 8th level ability but lose a 4th level spell.
Sorcerers gained 9 more spells known - about a 30% increase, 4 bonus feats, and more bloodline powers than wizards get school powers. They can also Quicken their spells now.
The additional spells known is the real kicker. The big liability of choosing Sorcerer over Wizard was potential for having no spells to deal with a situation that you could see coming in advance. A wizard can prepare new spells, a sorcerer cannot. But with the huge increase in spells known, a Sorcerer loses a great deal of that disadvantage, able to diversify much more.
Bottom line, Sorcerers gained more than Wizards did. If you called Wizards more powerful before, then perhaps they still are. I thought them rather equal before.
Well they gained the ability to choose what bonus spell they will get, which practically gives them one more spell slot per spell level per day. And they have no penalty while doing so. At least they should lose that extra spell as well if the memorize spells from opposite schools. And generalist should not get any extra spells at all. Them getting just special abilities is enough.
If the wizard stays as it is, I believe Sorcerer deserves to get new level of spells at same levels as wizards to balance things out.|
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I'm in full agreement with Brent here.
The Wizard has gained virtually *nothing* substantial in the Beta. Except for Univeralist wizards (who no one played in my campaigns, ever, for 8 years), they get no more spells per day than in 3.5 - unless you include their extra *first* level spells... really.
Arcane bond is pretty strong - though one loses your familiar if you take it. But far less so with the removal of half crafting cost. And it is also an option for Sorcerers though. They gain an 8th level ability but lose a 4th level spell.
Sorcerers gained 9 more spells known - about a 30% increase, 4 bonus feats, and more bloodline powers than wizards get school powers. They can also Quicken their spells now.
The additional spells known is the real kicker. The big liability of choosing Sorcerer over Wizard was potential for having no spells to deal with a situation that you could see coming in advance. A wizard can prepare new spells, a sorcerer cannot. But with the huge increase in spells known, a Sorcerer loses a great deal of that disadvantage, able to diversify much more.
Bottom line, Sorcerers gained more than Wizards did. If you called Wizards more powerful before, then perhaps they still are. I thought them rather equal before.
Well they gained the ability to choose what bonus spell they will get, which practically gives them one more spell slot per spell level per day. And they have no penalty while doing so. At least they should lose that extra spell as well if the memorize spells from opposite schools. And generalist should not get any extra spells at all. Them getting just special abilities is enough.
If the wizard stays as it is, I believe Sorcerer deserves to get new level of spells at same levels as wizards to balance things out.
I disagree completely. If you take away the Wizards bonus spells, then he becomes clearly inferior to the Sorcerer by a large margin. With the ability to spontaneously Quicken spells to their hearts content now, Sorcerers can get off two spells every single round if they want to. Most of their supernatural abilities for bloodlines are bettern than the Wizard extraordinary abilities with the exception of Metamagic Mastery (the best extraordinary ability given to any arcane caster IMO). I mean what you are advocating is that generalist wizards (which were the worst class of any Wizard or Sorcerer in 3.5) only get the 3 extraordinary abilities and that is it. The only saving grace will be Metamagic Mastery, but candidly that won't be enough to make it worthwhile for most players to take that over specialist school.
Every time I read one of these threads there is someone wanting to take away more from Wizard classes. Candidly, Wizards are not that great in 3.5 D&D. They have very few spells they can cast until very high levels. They suffer from the swiss army knife syndrome where it is difficult to know which utility powers to have each day. They are completely gimped if the spell they have ready that day isn't the one they need for a particular challenge. They suffer from the worst BAB and HD progression in the game. Most importantly, they can't spontaneously cast. The ability to cast spontaneously and apply metamagic feats spontaneously is VERY powerful. I'm tired of hearing everyone complain about the Wizard like they were the most broken class in the game. If you want to talk broken lets talk about Druid with their spontaneous summonings, shapechanges at will with unlimited durations, and blaster spells on par with the Wizards. How about the Cleric who when properly buffed was THE most powerful class in the game.
I don't have a problem with classes being powerful. In fact I think the power boosts to all the classes over 3.5 will make them more fun for players to play. However, I do NOT advocate taking more abilities away from one class to make some fans feel like their favorite class is better now by comparison. The Wizard is already the hardest class to keep alive, and the most difficult to play at low levels of any class in the game. Now you want to give all these extra advantages to Sorcerers and not only that, you want Sorcerers to get more abilities, get their next spell levels at the same time as the Wizard, and you want the Wizard to lose all their bonus spells and only have those 3 extraordinary abilities????? Come on. That reaks of you wanting the Sorcerer to be vastly superior to the Wizard and not equal to them. I think the current Beta has found a nice balance. It isn't perfect, but Sorcerers got a BIG boost when they weren't all that problematic to begin with. Wizards got a moderate boost that candidly, they needed badly. Noone would play Wizards in my campaigns because they were just too weak compared to other casters. If someone did play a wizard it was ALWAYS a specialist. Of the primary casting classes, I think the Wizard needed the most help of any of them to be worth playing again. The Beta has done its job in making it attractive without making it better than any other caster.
I challenge you to write up casters using the beta rules and make a sorcerer, wizard, druid, and cleric and ask your players to rate them from strongest to weakest and I would be willing to bet the Wizard is in the bottom two. As to your point about people only playing sorcerers because the book keeping was easier, I would love to hear what evidence you have to back that claim. Everyone I know who played sorcerers did so because they were just flat out better as a class than the Wizard was. Getting that higher level spell one level sooner was just not worth the disparity in having to pick your spells before you know what you will face, being able to cast far more spells per day, and being able to spontaneously cast whatever spell you need in your repetoire without advance preparation. The sorcerer's only weakness in 3.5 is that they didn't have a large enough spell selection. The bloodline abilities and bonus spells completely fix that. Now Sorcerers have virtually as many different spells available to them at each level per day as a Wizard does and they can cast them more often. Oh yeah, and did I mention Sorcerers can now spontaneously Quicken spells they can cast as often as they want? Yet you think the Wizard needs to be gimped more. Sheesh. I don't want the Wizard class to be nerfed anymore than it already has. Its tiring hearing everyone reference the Wizard in every argument they make about their favorite class needing to be stronger, and then suggesting they take even more from the Wizard as the way to accomplish that. I want each class to be attractive to play for anyone who wants to play that class. What you are suggesting is to make the Wizard clearly inferior to all the others.
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I am with Brent in this completly (except in whatrefers to the cleric, they nerfed my ebst spells already, and they want to treat me like a band-aid box... which is their trouble :D)
Sorceres were created with one sole purpose... satisfy players that main spell is fireball (and that they try the game like that)
as Archangel noted he only plays wizards in videogames... i suppose because there he can't cast any spell he likes... that is the sorceror for, an easy class with raw power, flexibility... but just NOT versatility
the wizard is powerful in time, not flexible at all, but versatil...
ahh learning new spells cost gold, or making scrolls cost gold, quite a lot... and some master don't give that kind of gold (or wizard is suffering because we have notreceived ANY gold in 5 sesions, so he can't create scrolls or use alchemy, ok ok the master is promising to give us as we go by... but in scrolls and magic items we know we are going to suffer)
in the game we are palying we have 1 of every spellcasting class (1 bard, 1 cleric, 1 druid, 1 sorcerer, 1 specialty wizard: necromancy)
for what i have seen both sorcere and wizard are at the same level... difference... the wizard NEED to plan ahead, sorcerer just goes by, he needs not to worry about what would happen ir not in the future, he is ready, also the bard, she ahs few spells but they had been used to maximum effect (take down an enemy with Tasha's maniac laughter & healing my dying cleric :P)
the wizard is just learningshield to protect hymself and now thatwe are in elel 2 using the bonus 2nd level (that youreceive every 2 levels to learn Rayof Efeeblement)
and since the 5 sesions were played in the same day (small sesions 1st one meeting in Sandpoint, next 3 battle goblins, 1 knowingthe ropes of the places) he was out of spells for the half of the 3rd sesion (so ddi my cleric), he was defenseless until my cleric offered him her crossbow... whichevery shot was a miss...
still the sorcererstill had some juice to keep around
I have nothing to add except that I agree Sorcerers and Wizards need to be balanced some way.
ahh learning new spells cost gold, or making scrolls cost gold, quite a lot... and some master don't give that kind of gold (or wizard is suffering because we have notreceived ANY gold in 5 sesions, so he can't create scrolls or use alchemy, ok ok the master is promising to give us as we go by... but in scrolls and magic items we know we are going to suffer)
While I respect most styles of DMing, I cannot abide by DMs who don't give out treasure. Players have to have treasure, have to, in order to be proper adventurers. Otherwise they can't buy stuff, can't make stuff and will generally not be able to do their job.
I know this cuts into some styles, especially more gritty ones, but please let your heroes be able to do their job!
Thanks you.
This de-rail has now ended.
Now Sorcerers have virtually as many different spells available to them at each level per day as a Wizard does and they can cast them more often. Oh yeah, and did I mention Sorcerers can now spontaneously Quicken spells they can cast as often as they want?
I understand you feel passionately about wizards, but I need to present a reality check:
Wizards have spellbooks, and thus no hard limit on how many spells they can know. Sorcerers know nine cantrips, five 1st and 2nd level spells, four 3rd-5th, and three 6-9th, and one additional at each level for bloodline.
Sorcerers can’t cast quicken “as often as they want.” It takes a slot four levels up, which means you can’t cast it at all until you hit level 8, it’s not useful until level 10, and you can never cast it on a sixth level spell or above. That means you’re trading Fireballs for Orbs of Acid, or Cones of Cold for Magic Missiles.
Wait until the Classes design board comes out. Then I'll be happy to fight along side you for the sorcerer.
Wait until the Classes design board comes out. Then I'll be happy to fight along side you for the sorcerer.
Beat me to the punch. No point in really banging this around too much. Even so, the wizard took a serious knock in 2 ways. #1 bonus spells are fixed for their career once chosen... reduces flexibility which is their strength. #2 bonus spells are no longer part of the normal spell progression and thus do not advance when the wizard goes PrC. #3 (this is a half issue) bonus spells come 1 level later than they did previously. Previously they got a bonus 1st level spell at 1st now it's 2nd level, etc.
Sorcerers didn't get nerfed at all. The classes are much closer to parity than ever.
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Now Sorcerers have virtually as many different spells available to them at each level per day as a Wizard does and they can cast them more often. Oh yeah, and did I mention Sorcerers can now spontaneously Quicken spells they can cast as often as they want?I understand you feel passionately about wizards, but I need to present a reality check:
Wizards have spellbooks, and thus no hard limit on how many spells they can know. Sorcerers know nine cantrips, five 1st and 2nd level spells, four 3rd-5th, and three 6-9th, and one additional at each level for bloodline.
Sorcerers can’t cast quicken “as often as they want.” It takes a slot four levels up, which means you can’t cast it at all until you hit level 8, it’s not useful until level 10, and you can never cast it on a sixth level spell or above. That means you’re trading Fireballs for Orbs of Acid, or Cones of Cold for Magic Missiles.
You are underestimating the value of a free magic missile every single round. Ditto for a free fireball at higher levels. The discussion isn't limited to Quicken either though. Every metamagic feat a Sorcerer takes is infinitely usable. Take the Arcane bloodline and they don't even increase casting time anymore. In terms of spells known, the only ones that matter are the ones you have prepared for that day. In that respect, the Sorcerer is doing just fine as their daily options are just as varied as the typical wizards. Its easy to say the Wizard has a more varied spellbook, but all they have available at one time are the spells prepared for that day which is virtually identical to the Sorcerer in variety. Wizards gain no foresight into what they will face each day, so they effectively pick a Sorerer "suite" for the day, but don't get to use the spells as often or reuse spells that happen to be particularly useful. Greater versatility comes at the expense of repeatability. Find out that Fireball is just right? Too bad you only memroized one so that you would be more versatile.
In my own case, it isn't so much that I feel passionately about the wizard as it is that I am tired of seeing them be the red headed step child of class balance discussions. Every one of them asks something else be taken from Wizards. I mean why even bother with Wizards at all. We could rename the class "Gimps" and then let everyone at the table laugh at their ineffectiveness. If someone proposed similar surgical removals of abilities for say the Sorcerer the boards would be aflame with riots. What I am looking for is classes balanced against each other, not a wholesale nerf of the Wizard so that every other class is better.
You are underestimating the value of a free magic missile every single round.
He was pointing out that it's not "free", it's a 5th level spell. If you have 5th level spell slots to burn... This tends to make the 15 minute adventure day a reality though, burning though your high level spells ridiculously fast and quickly your sorcerer has no go juice.
In my own case, it isn't so much that I feel passionately about the wizard as it is that I am tired of seeing them be the red headed step child of class balance discussions. Every one of them asks something else be taken from Wizards.
It sounds to me like your experience differs from most people's experience with regards to the balance of power between the wizard and the sorcerer. In my experience the wizard has been far more powerful than the sorcerer. Mostly because the sorcerer is limited to such a small palate of spells and cannot shift strategies.
If you want a blaster and always need a blaster then the sorcerer has the edge. But sometimes you need a battlefield controller, the wizard can adapt, the sorcerer is stuck. Or maybe it's the other way around, your sorcerer is a battlefield controller but you need a blaster.
The wizard also gains higher level spells faster which is a giant advantage.
I'm too tired, Brent. Why is there so much hatred for wizards? If you don’t like the class, not play a wizard
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While I respect most styles of DMing, I cannot abide by DMs who don't give out treasure. Players have to have treasure, have to, in order to be proper adventurers. Otherwise they can't buy stuff, can't make stuff and will generally not be able to do their job.
I know this cuts into some styles, especially more gritty ones, but please let your heroes be able to do their job!
Thanks you.
This de-rail has now ended.
i am not the DM, i am the cleric :P
but yeah i need money to make my armor better... still... we are just ebggining... our sesions are about 2 or 3 hours online, and we have jsut defended sandpoint from a raid... so wemightget payed... maybebut yes some styles are not meant to have treasure, i run a modern game with World of Darkness rules... they get no treasure, except a few specific artifacts they look forward... but since they are wihta govement agency, and one is one of the head honchos, basically they ask andreceive the equiopement they requiere... more complicated ones, they needred tape and it takes a time, but they have not complained for the lack of treasure
He was pointing out that it's not "free", it's a 5th level spell. If you have 5th level spell slots to burn... This tends to make the 15 minute adventure day a reality though, burning though your high level spells ridiculously fast and quickly your sorcerer has no go juice.
he ment that a sorcerer chan chose to use metamagic in the fly... while a wizard needs to memorice the spell already with the metamagic included... who is more versatil with his "spell's selection" then?
If you want a blaster and always need a blaster then the sorcerer has the edge. But sometimes you need a battlefield controller, the wizard can adapt, the sorcerer is stuck. Or maybe it's the other way around, your sorcerer is a battlefield controller but you need a blaster.
The wizard also gains higher level spells faster which is a giant advantage.
that Da Ogre is players choice... Da Ogre one question... if you want the ability to change strategies why did you take side for the sorcerer?
Sorceres were created to give blasters a lot of firepower and rays to their heart content, they don't need to memorize, they can cast anything they know whenever they know it, and usuallycan cast more spells... so we punish even more the wizard ebcause he was more spells... but which he need to memorize so he can cast them... but you only gwet what you memorize... soits fair to take it even more for you... so we can make the sorcerer stronger because someone has the need to fill more powerful than his counterpart?
lets get real its because you don't need to memorize spells... if a wizard chose worongly... his WHOLE spells are useless for the day... it takes a better player to play a wizard, one who plans ahead, one who prepares...
lets get real, playing sorceres... is cheap and easy... because of that they should be rewarded? why? made more powerful? why? to have muchkins happy?
i hope not
PS: i use Clerics... i am very very abd at using wizards... i can't plan ahead... Cleric give me enought versatility for my liking :D
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I'm too tired, Brent. Why is there so much hatred for wizards? If you don’t like the class, not play a wizard
Ummm, I am championing the wizard not hating them. I am saying that too many want to continue to take things away from the wizard class because they don't feel that some other class is good enough by comparison. Instead of proposing ways to improve the class they want to be better, they just argue that the wizard should be nerfed some more. I am saying that is foolish.
Personally I feel fairly neutral about Wizards. In 3.5 I thought their disadvantages far out weighed their advantages. I personally like to play Fighters or Druids. Generally speaking, the wizard's versatility is way too hyped. Yeah they can have dozens of spells in their spellbook, but their daily selection is very finite. So saying they can deal with any situation just isn't true unless they can accurately predict what that challenge is. I think Wizards need a boost, not a nerf. I feel like the Beta did a good job of that. I also feel that the Sorcerers also recieved a needed boost in the Beta. What I am saying is that we don't need to go and take away what the Wizard gained in the Beta just so that the Sorcerer is stronger by comparison. That is what this discussion is about.
I want Wizards to be as fun to play as Sorcerers, as Clerics, as Druids, as whatever. I feel like the Wizards disadvantages in 3.5 made them an underwhelming choice. I think Beta fixed that. What I don't want to see is the changes in the Beta taken away just so the Sorcerer is better. I don't think it is needed. The Sorcerer is doing just fine.
It has been my experience throughout 3.5 that the wizard trumps a sorcerer. I say this because of a wizard has potiental access to all of the wizard/sorecerer spell list and the ability to scribe scrolls cheaply. Yes it takes time, but even most 9th level spells take only 4 days to make. Given a short period of downtime, a wizard can create a number of scrolls of utility/specialty spells (secure shelter, lesser globe of invulnerability, stone skin, etc.). This easily allows a wizard to adapt to unusual situations.
As to how balanced the Pathfinder sorcerer and wizard are, I will have to wait and see. I am currently running a small playtest with a both a sorcerer and a wizard PC. My gut still thinks the wizard is stronger, but I may be wrong.
he ment that a sorcerer chan chose to use metamagic in the fly... while a wizard needs to memorice the spell already with the metamagic included... who is more versatil with his "spell's selection" then?
The guy who has the choice every morning whether to memorize "fly" or "fireball" or "shrink item" or "haste". The guy who has 5 ways to cast fireball is significantly more limited. "I can cast fireball really fast, or really powerfully, or I can make a cold fireball... an Iceball".
Sorcerers are a lot of fun but they are severely limited compared to the wizard.
that Da Ogre is players choice... Da Ogre one question... if you want the ability to change strategies why did you take side for the sorcerer?
Sorry, I wasn't aware there were sides. I like and play both classes.
I'm not entirely clear what the rest of your message meant. So I'll leave it at that.
I just wanted to point out, as I think others have...
A specialist wizard in Pathfinder gained 3 bonus abilities and additional uses of their 1st level bonus spell, over the 3.5 counterpart. In return, they give up the choice each day of what spell to prepare in that slot since it is now "permanent".
A "universal" wizard gained bonus spells (again, once chosen can't be changed) and 3 bonus abilities.
A sorcerer gained...
4 feats (Eschew Materials and 3 bloodline feats)
5 bloodline powers
9 additional known spells
To me it looks like if anything needs to be looked at, it would be the "universal" wizards. At the moment, I can't see any reason to play a specialist wizard except "flavor" reasons. Sorcerers gained more out of the Pathfinder Beta than traditional specialist wizards did by a long shot, so I don't see any reason to start waiving the nerf bat at specialists....
Honestly, in our group most people always ended up playing sorcerers. Wizards have always been seen as too "restrictive" due to the rules for preparing spells. The new Beta rule already have them taunting me that playing a wizard over a sorcerer would be "gimping" the party....
I think the power levels of both are just fine. You just have to accept that they have slightly different party roles.
I think the specialist powers could still use some tweaking.
I like that arcane bond now lets you enhance it for the normal half price instead of 1/4 price.
I think the power levels of both are just fine. You just have to accept that they have slightly different party roles.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by party roles... but the two classes are definitely in the ballpark of each other now.
I think the specialist powers could still use some tweaking.
I like that arcane bond now lets you enhance it for the normal half price instead of 1/4 price.
I think the wizard class needs some significant clean up... not nerfing but just clean up to address some poorly worded sections and powers. I hadn't quite caught the fix to arcane bond. Personally... it's perfect this way. Maybe there should be some caveat that the item cannot be sold or only works for the wizard... but in general I'm happy the way it is.
The other two niggles about the wizard are the fact that prohibited classes are not prohibitive at all, and that universalists get all the benefits of specialization without any sacrifice.
Ummm, I am championing the wizard not hating them. I am saying that too many want to continue to take things away from the wizard class because they don't feel that some other class is good enough by comparison. Instead of proposing ways to improve the class they want to be better, they just argue that the wizard should be nerfed some more. I am saying that is foolish.
Personally I feel fairly neutral about Wizards. In 3.5 I thought their disadvantages far out weighed their advantages. I personally like to play Fighters or Druids. Generally speaking, the wizard's versatility is way too hyped. Yeah they can have dozens of spells in their spellbook, but their daily selection is very finite. So saying they can deal with any situation just isn't true unless they can accurately predict what that challenge is. I think Wizards need a boost, not a nerf. I feel like the Beta did a good job of that. I also feel that the Sorcerers also recieved a needed boost in the Beta. What I am saying is that we don't need to go and take away what the Wizard gained in the Beta just so that the Sorcerer is stronger by comparison. That is what this discussion is about.
I want Wizards to be as fun to play as Sorcerers, as Clerics, as Druids, as whatever. I feel like the Wizards disadvantages in 3.5 made them an underwhelming choice. I think Beta fixed that. What I don't want to see is the changes in the Beta taken away just so the Sorcerer is better. I don't think it is needed. The Sorcerer is doing just fine.
Yes, I Know. I agree with you. I am not a native speaker, and I think I expressed wrong. Sorry.
The last two sentences of my message concerned the attitude that I have seen in these forums. There are many threads on which the solution to everything is "nerf the wizard!" I am DM and I like my players to play the class they want. I do not understand why people want to devalue a class.
However, I am not sure that globally wizards and sorcerers have received a boost. What they have gained in their classes have lost by the nerf in the magic. But nobody complains about that. Nobody said that his sorcerer or his cleric are less powerful for that reason. Just say that Paizo must nerf the wizard. It is tired.
And sorry for my poor English :(
Sorcerers are going to get a hellava lot more use out of Quicken Spells now than wizards do. Wizards can use the feat just like they used to, but sorcerers can decide, on the fly, if they need to throw an extra spell out when they are casting another spell . . .
I'm not sure how this works over all, but I know the dragon I used this with last night had a lot easier time throwing spells around the way this feat works now.
I think the power levels of both are just fine. You just have to accept that they have slightly different party roles.I'm not sure exactly what you mean by party roles... but the two classes are definitely in the ballpark of each other now.
Wizard and Sorcerer have different party roles.
Sorcerers are a consistent source of a high volume of spells, without much variation. That means other classes can very comfortably plan ahead, knowing what they will have available. And they tend towards evocation spells.
Wizards are more often crafters, and crafty, and given preparation time can always have the right spell available. They will, generally speaking, always have Scry, Identify, perhaps Legend's Lore, and other powerful spells that see rare use. They are the plot movers and strategy implementers. But can you depend on a wizard to always have any particular spell available? Absolutely not.
Not *that* different, but different. And of course one can try to act like the other, just as any cleric can act as a fighter or a blaster mage if they really feel like it.
Maybe there should be some caveat that the item cannot be sold or only works for the wizard... but in general I'm happy the way it is.I think the specialist powers could still use some tweaking.
I like that arcane bond now lets you enhance it for the normal half price instead of 1/4 price.
There is this very caveat already - yay.
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Ummm, I am championing the wizard not hating them. I am saying that too many want to continue to take things away from the wizard class because they don't feel that some other class is good enough by comparison. Instead of proposing ways to improve the class they want to be better, they just argue that the wizard should be nerfed some more. I am saying that is foolish.
Personally I feel fairly neutral about Wizards. In 3.5 I thought their disadvantages far out weighed their advantages. I personally like to play Fighters or Druids. Generally speaking, the wizard's versatility is way too hyped. Yeah they can have dozens of spells in their spellbook, but their daily selection is very finite. So saying they can deal with any situation just isn't true unless they can accurately predict what that challenge is. I think Wizards need a boost, not a nerf. I feel like the Beta did a good job of that. I also feel that the Sorcerers also recieved a needed boost in the Beta. What I am saying is that we don't need to go and take away what the Wizard gained in the Beta just so that the Sorcerer is stronger by comparison. That is what this discussion is about.
I want Wizards to be as fun to play as Sorcerers, as Clerics, as Druids, as whatever. I feel like the Wizards disadvantages in 3.5 made them an underwhelming choice. I think Beta fixed that. What I don't want to see is the changes in the Beta taken away just so the Sorcerer is better. I don't think it is needed. The Sorcerer is doing just fine.
Yes, I Know. I agree with you. I am not a native speaker, and I think I expressed wrong. Sorry.
The last two sentences of my message concerned the attitude that I have seen in these forums. There are many threads on which the solution to everything is "nerf the wizard!" I am DM and I like my players to play the class they want. I do not understand why people want to devalue a class.
However, I am not sure that globally wizards and sorcerers have received a boost. What they...
Aahhhh. Ok we are on the same page then. Sorry I misunderstood there. I totally agree with you.
Just to add on to what KnightErrantJr said.... The thing is that for the Wizard, they have to commit to using that fifth level slot for a quickened first level spell at the start of the day before they know if it would be more useful to have a teleport that day or to drop a second spell one round instead. The sorcerer can wait til the moment of the action to make that decision. That is the added flexibility I am talking about. My most recent playtest used a 15th level sorcerer with this rule, and I was suprised at how often my player chose to use those high level slots to get another spell out in a round. In fact, they opted for Quickened third level spells with all of their 7th level slots. That is simply because the impact potential of a single 7th level spell isn't the same as say a third level and a fifth level in the same round.
Time will tell how it plays out, but I've never seen a wizard use metamagic feats as much as this socerer with the Arcane Bloodline and the changes to Quicken Spell and the Beta stuff. He's having a ball as are the other players, so I think they are getting a lot right on this beta thing.
If quicken is so important play a universalist. A 15th level wizard can use their metamagic whatzit to cast quickened 7th level spells twice per day at no cost. Quickened Limited Wish? Talk about flexibility.
They can also just memorize quickened versions of spells.
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Well they gained the ability to choose what bonus spell they will get, which practically gives them one more spell slot per spell level per day. And they have no penalty while doing so. At least they should lose that extra spell as well if the memorize spells from opposite schools. And generalist should not get any extra spells at all. Them getting just special abilities is enough.
If the wizard stays as it is, I believe Sorcerer deserves to get new level of spells at same levels as wizards to balance things out.
Specialist Wizards ALWAYS had a bonus spell at each spell level. Now they get it at the even levels though instead of the levels they first get access to their spell levels.
If quicken is so important play a universalist. A 15th level wizard can use their metamagic whatzit to cast quickened 7th level spells twice per day at no cost. Quickened Limited Wish? Talk about flexibility.
As has already been mentioned in this thread and others, the Universalist needs to be re-examined on the basis that it's abilities and the fact that they get bonus spells also makes it better than a specialist wizard, at least IMO and some others....
As has already been mentioned in this thread and others, the Universalist needs to be re-examined on the basis that it's abilities and the fact that they get bonus spells also makes it better than a specialist wizard, at least IMO and some others....
Seeing as I mentioned it in my previous post... I am aware of the fact.
I agree that generalists should be weakened and should therefore not be used as a basis for a comparison between wizards and sorcerers.
I especially think this because in my opinion, most wizards should not be a generalist because specialists have more flavor.
Many arguments in this thread talk about how different play styles can affect which is better. However, in a standard D&D campaign, there is at least enough downtime for the wizard to get more spells and the rare event when this is not the case should not be used as the norm for a discussion of balance. Balance can only be applied to a standard set type of game because otherwise anyone can make an argument that any class is too powerful. For example, in an undead heavy campaign, paladins and clerics will be much more powerful, while in a dungeon crawler style, the rogue will shine more.
My assumption is that there is enough time for a wizard to get more spells,but if this is not usually the case, I suggest that we agree upon the amount of downtime and other elements in an "average" game because otherwise there is no basis for discussion.
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If quicken is so important play a universalist. A 15th level wizard can use their metamagic whatzit to cast quickened 7th level spells twice per day at no cost. Quickened Limited Wish? Talk about flexibility.
They can also just memorize quickened versions of spells.
Yeah and at 15th level they can do it all of once per day. Note even close to the Sorcerer being able to do it spontaneously whenever they want.
Yeah and at 15th level they can do it all of once per day. Note even close to the Sorcerer being able to do it spontaneously whenever they want.If quicken is so important play a universalist. A 15th level wizard can use their metamagic whatzit to cast quickened 7th level spells twice per day at no cost. Quickened Limited Wish? Talk about flexibility.
They can also just memorize quickened versions of spells.
The 15th level Sorcerer can quicken THIRD level spells. It's not FREE. He's using 7th-level spell slots for third-level spells. This is sometimes worth it, but usually not. He can't quicken Limited Wish at all.
The wizard can apply Quicken once, Empower once, and Extend once, to spells of any level, for free. At 16th he'll be able to apply Quicken twice, for free--an ability that's worth about 120,000 gp, for reference.
Yes, the Sorcerer casts spontaneously. Yes, this is an advantage. No, it's not more of an advantage than the Wizard knowing tons of spells, being able to cast 1/day spells like Overland Flight and Phantom Steed (which the Sorc can't waste a spell slot on), etc.
I think Wizards have had an edge over sorcerers since 3.0, and that PRPG made the power gap smaller, but wizards are still the better class.
What I would do is have sorcerers expand the eschew materials to include costly components as well.
wellhow i always did it was EM got better as ya leveled. AT 5TH,10TH,15TH,20TH...I went 25,50,100 and 500 gp
I think Wizards have had an edge over sorcerers since 3.0, and that PRPG made the power gap smaller, but wizards are still the better class.
What I would do is have sorcerers expand the eschew materials to include costly components as well.
Sorcerers just plain need to be able to know more spells. in addition to the specific bloodline spells, let them pick one more spell per level-up.
Of course, then you're powering UP arcane casters some more, which is the last thing the game needs.
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Yeah and at 15th level they can do it all of once per day. Note even close to the Sorcerer being able to do it spontaneously whenever they want.If quicken is so important play a universalist. A 15th level wizard can use their metamagic whatzit to cast quickened 7th level spells twice per day at no cost. Quickened Limited Wish? Talk about flexibility.
They can also just memorize quickened versions of spells.
The 15th level Sorcerer can quicken THIRD level spells. It's not FREE. He's using 7th-level spell slots for third-level spells. This is sometimes worth it, but usually not. He can't quicken Limited Wish at all.
The wizard can apply Quicken once, Empower once, and Extend once, to spells of any level, for free. At 16th he'll be able to apply Quicken twice, for free--an ability that's worth about 120,000 gp, for reference.
Yes, the Sorcerer casts spontaneously. Yes, this is an advantage. No, it's not more of an advantage than the Wizard knowing tons of spells, being able to cast 1/day spells like Overland Flight and Phantom Steed (which the Sorc can't waste a spell slot on), etc.
Until you are in the battle after you used your quicken spell and then the sorcerers two spells a round even using his 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots still trumps the wizards. But whatever. I will trust the designers not to have their wizard hater glasses on when they decide if they want to nerf the wizard because everyone thinks they rock too much. lol.
Until you are in the battle after you used your quicken spell and then the sorcerers two spells a round even using his 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots still trumps the wizards. But whatever. I will trust the designers not to have their wizard hater glasses on when they decide if they want to nerf the wizard because everyone thinks they rock too much. lol.
The wizard can Quicken spells too. I'm not sure why you're pretending that he can't, but it's disingenuous. Yes, the sorcerer does so spontaneously, but if it were as good as you think it is, the wizard could just prepare Quickened spells. Spontaneous casting is an advantage, but it doesn't make up for the vastly more spells known, quicker spell access, and ability to cast spells you only need to prepare once per day (from Phantom Steed and Greater Magic Weapon to Overland Flight and Mind Blank) and which a sorcerer can't afford to learn.
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The wizard can Quicken spells too. I'm not sure why you're pretending that he can't, but it's disingenuous. Yes, the sorcerer does so spontaneously, but if it were as good as you think it is, the wizard could just prepare Quickened spells. Spontaneous casting is an advantage, but it doesn't make up for the vastly more spells known, quicker spell access, and ability to cast spells you only need to prepare once per day (from Phantom Steed and Greater Magic Weapon to Overland Flight and Mind Blank) and which a sorcerer can't afford to learn.
Until you are in the battle after you used your quicken spell and then the sorcerers two spells a round even using his 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots still trumps the wizards. But whatever. I will trust the designers not to have their wizard hater glasses on when they decide if they want to nerf the wizard because everyone thinks they rock too much. lol.
I think Wizards have had an edge over sorcerers since 3.0, and that PRPG made the power gap smaller, but wizards are still the better class.
What I would do is have sorcerers expand the eschew materials to include costly components as well.
Sorcerers just plain need to be able to know more spells. in addition to the specific bloodline spells, let them pick one more spell per level-up.
Of course, then you're powering UP arcane casters some more, which is the last thing the game needs.
I think the game needs a Logic Ninja base class. It would specialize in going to messageboards and complaining that every arcane casting class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. The flavor text would say the class is all about Logic and Ninja's, but the game mechanics would totally support class nerfing.
On a side note, if we are comparing these abilities to magic items, a 16th level wizard can quicken two spells per day of any level which is slightly less powerful than a greater rod of quickening, but lets give it to you and say they get one. The Sorcerer of the same level can quicken spells up to 4th level and can do so a base of 20 times a day, using higher level spell slots. They can do 4th level spells 3 times not counting bonuses from high ability scores to castable spells. That would require a single normal quickening rod, and they can quicken spells of levels 1-3 up to 17 times, which would require 6 rods of lesser quickening. Doing the math the Wizard has the equivalent of a single 170,000 gp worth of items whereas the Sorcerer ability gives the equivalent of 285,500 (35,000x6+75,500) gp worth of items. Since the expension of spells happens in both cases that is a wash effect. So by your magic item cost argument the sorcerer needs to have its ability cut by 40% for them to be balanced with each other. Anyway, just passing it along but don't let the real numbers get in the way of your Logic Ninja class features.
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The wizard can Quicken spells too. I'm not sure why you're pretending that he can't, but it's disingenuous. Yes, the sorcerer does so spontaneously, but if it were as good as you think it is, the wizard could just prepare Quickened spells. Spontaneous casting is an advantage, but it doesn't make up for the vastly more spells known, quicker spell access, and ability to cast spells you only need to prepare once per day (from Phantom Steed and Greater Magic Weapon to Overland Flight and Mind Blank) and which a sorcerer can't afford to learn.
Until you are in the battle after you used your quicken spell and then the sorcerers two spells a round even using his 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots still trumps the wizards. But whatever. I will trust the designers not to have their wizard hater glasses on when they decide if they want to nerf the wizard because everyone thinks they rock too much. lol.
Spells knowns is a weak argument because the only thing that matters is spells prepared. On any given day the Wizards options are not more versatile than a Sorcerers. They can change that selection the next day, but if they can not preciently predict their challenges each day, their selection (which is grossly overvalued) is as limited as the Sorcerers each day, except the Sorcerer can cast more of them. The ability to spontaneously do anything is the most powerful aspect of a game built on the vancian mechanic. Spontaneous casters always trump prepared casters for that reason.
I think the game needs a Logic Ninja base class. It would specialize in going to messageboards and complaining that every arcane casting class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. The flavor text would say the class is all about Logic and Ninja's, but the game mechanics would totally support class nerfing.
And people say I'm agressive. You just spent a post insulting me for disagreeing with you, even though we're both involved in this discussion. What the hell is your problem? Do you see me calling you an idiot for thinking sorcerers are better or arcanists don't need to be nerfed or something?
This is a discussion on Wizard and Sorcerer balance; why are you getting on my case for talking about Wizard and Sorcerer balance? And what kind of response do you expect a post like that to get?That's the kind of thing this forum is for. Either bring your points.
If you're going to discuss, discuss. Don't spend your time sniping at me because I said something you disagree with.
On a side note, if we are comparing these abilities to magic items, a 16th level wizard can quicken two spells per day of any level which is slightly less powerful than a greater rod of quickening, but lets give it to you and say they get one. The Sorcerer of the same level can quicken spells up to 4th level and can do so a base of 20 times a day, using higher level spell slots. They can do 4th level spells 3 times not counting bonuses from high ability scores to castable spells. That would require a single normal quickening rod, and they can quicken spells of levels 1-3 up to 17 times, which would require 6 rods of lesser quickening... Anyway, just passing it along but don't let the real numbers get in the way of your Logic Ninja class features.
I'm going to say this again, loudly, because apparently you missed it the first time: YOU ARE PRETENDING OR INCORRECTLY ASSUMING THE SORCERER CAN QUICKEN HIS SPELLS FOR FREE. This is not the case. TO QUICKEN A SPELL, THE SORCERER NEEDS TO EXPEND A SPELL SLOT FOUR LEVELS HIGHER.
Please stop doing this. We can't have ANY kind of reasonable discussion until you accept that a Sorcerer has to expend higher-level spell slots to cast Quickened spells, and that the Wizard can also prepare Quickened spells in higher-level slots.The wizard can ALSO quicken spells by preparing them in higher-level slots. Your "math" ignores the fact that the wizard is getting two FREE quickens of any level, in addition to the normal quickening of spells, which both the wizard and the sorcerer can do.
Spells knowns is a weak argument because the only thing that matters is spells prepared. On any given day the Wizards options are not more versatile than a Sorcerers. They can change that selection the next day, but if they can not preciently predict their challenges each day, their selection (which is grossly overvalued) is as limited as the Sorcerers each day, except the Sorcerer can cast more of them. The ability to spontaneously do anything is the most powerful aspect of a game built on the vancian mechanic. Spontaneous casters always trump prepared casters for that reason.
Spells known is not a weak argument:
Scrolls. Half-price scrolls scribed means the wizard can have a ton of useful backup scrolls. Some of those scrolls are situational utility spells, but others are no-save/no-SR spells like Solid Fog or buffs (Greater Invis, Mirror Image at low levels, etc). Wands can be used, too.
Prescience is not required. Just as a Sorcerer selects Spells Known for versatility, a Wizard selects his Spells Prepared to be useful in a wide variety of situations. A good Wizard's prepared spell list can handle almost anything he comes across. In addition, he's got scrolls for backup, AND he can specialize to be super-devastating in the situations that he DOES know exactly what he's facing (e.g. the party has to go and take on a bunch of undead? He can change his spell setup for that). On top of all that, a Wizard can leave a bunch of spell slots open, and fill them in at 15 minutes per spell slot later during the day.
No competent wizard player assumes he knows exactly what he'll be up against. Instead, he prepares spells that are useful in most situations, and that overlap enough for him to be able to do similar things consistently, but are different enough that he can handle a wide array of situations.
Single-casting spells. The Sorcerer can not afford to learn spells he'll only need to cast once per day, like Overland Flight, Mind Blank, and so on. He also can't really afford to learn spells with expensive material components, since he'd rarely use them.
Why don't you show me a Sorcerer's spell list at level 15 or 16? I'll show you a wizard's Spells Prepared.
