Wizards vs Sorcerers balance in Beta


General Discussion (Prerelease)

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Steven Hume wrote:
what is with this board and post (twice) eatting cant someone fix this god!

What I do is copy+paste my whole post before I post it. That way if the board eats it (Previewing it seems to help), I can just go back and paste it in.

Scarab Sages

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Sorcerers are going to get a hellava lot more use out of Quicken Spells now than wizards do. Wizards can use the feat just like they used to, but sorcerers can decide, on the fly, if they need to throw an extra spell out when they are casting another spell . . .

I'm not sure how this works over all, but I know the dragon I used this with last night had a lot easier time throwing spells around the way this feat works now.

that is one thing that bothers me about metamagic, there got to be a way for a wizard to use metamagic on the fly, i find that is the hardest choice for me to decide if i need that quicken teleport today, if there was a fair balanced way for a wizard to use metamagic on the fly i would be soo happy !!

Scarab Sages

LogicNinja wrote:
Steven Hume wrote:
what is with this board and post (twice) eatting cant someone fix this god!
What I do is copy+paste my whole post before I post it. That way if the board eats it (Previewing it seems to help), I can just go back and paste it in.

thats not the point, for a company that EXPECTS playtest feedback i know this have been a problem for a long time, why havent they fixed it, i mean there is alot of already setup board software that is MUCH better than this thing they call a message board here. i dont know how the PBP games deal with this i would rip my hair out using this for PBP.

anyways

Dark Archive

LogicNinja wrote:
Brent wrote:
I think the game needs a Logic Ninja base class. It would specialize in going to messageboards and complaining that every arcane casting class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. The flavor text would say the class is all about Logic and Ninja's, but the game mechanics would totally support class nerfing.

And people say I'm agressive. You just spent a post insulting me for disagreeing with you, even though we're both involved in this discussion. What the hell is your problem? Do you see me calling you an idiot for thinking sorcerers are better or arcanists don't need to be nerfed or something?

This is a discussion on Wizard and Sorcerer balance; why are you getting on my case for talking about Wizard and Sorcerer balance? And what kind of response do you expect a post like that to get?
That's the kind of thing this forum is for. Either bring your points.

If you're going to discuss, discuss. Don't spend your time sniping at me because I said something you disagree with.

Brent wrote:
On a side note, if we are comparing these abilities to magic items, a 16th level wizard can quicken two spells per day of any level which is slightly less powerful than a greater rod of quickening, but lets give it to you and say they get one. The Sorcerer of the same level can quicken spells up to 4th level and can do so a base of 20 times a day, using higher level spell slots. They can do 4th level spells 3 times not counting bonuses from high ability scores to castable spells. That would require a single normal quickening rod, and they can quicken spells of levels 1-3 up to 17 times, which would require 6 rods of lesser quickening... Anyway, just passing it along but don't let the real numbers get in the way of your Logic Ninja class features.
I'm going to say this again, loudly, because apparently you missed it the first time: [b]YOU ARE PRETENDING OR INCORRECTLY ASSUMING THE SORCERER CAN QUICKEN HIS SPELLS FOR FREE. This is not the case. TO QUICKEN A SPELL, THE...

Ok.

First, I apologize for the below the belt jab. It was uncalled for, and I would edit it out but I'm beyond my window to do that. So you will just have to accept my apology for it.

Second, you accuse me of making assumptions when you are doing the same thing. Of course I know that a Wizard can prepare quickened spells in higher level spell slots. The point is that I have to decide when I prepare my spells if I want the quickened third level spell or the seventh level spell. The sorcerer doesn't. That is a TREMENDOUS amount of versatility. You are absolutely correct that I high level wizard can quicken two spells for free every day. But by that point the Sorcerer has the option of applying any metamagic feat they want to any spell they know if they have the appropriate higher level spell slot to do it. But they can make that choice in combat when the DM springs his surpise on them instead of earlier that day when the Wizard had to commit one way or the other. That type of versatility is just as critical as having a book full of spells that I will have only a small percentage of memorized. Unless your DM is letting you sleep 8 hours after every encounter and letting you scout out what you are doing after you sleep every single time how can you possibly prep "just the right spell from my book".

Next is that Wizards gain 2 spells per level, but anything above that costs money to gain. That deducts from the Wizards treasure unless you have a DM that ignores that aspect of spell scribing, but if you go by the rules, it costs Wizards per page to scribe. That doesn't even include the cost of getting scrolls or finding spells to sribe in the first place. But no matter how many spells you have in your book you can only prepare a finite number. A 20th level sorcerer knows 43 spells. In the Beta they know more than that depending on blooline. A 20th level Wizard has 40 base spell slots in which to prepare spells. If they put a different spell in every single slot they have LESS versatility that day than the sorcerer. If you include bonuses for high Intelligence and again assume the Wizard prepares a different spell in EVERY SINGLE SLOT, then the Sorcerer in the Beta and the Wizard end up with basically the same number of different spells known on any given day. If the wizard memorizes repeats of particularly useful spells, he has even less than the Sorcerer because the sorcerer can cast any spell on their known list ANY time they want as the situation dictates. Even if I wait to memorize some of my spells later (good luck doing that in the middle of a battle), I still can have at most 40 different options. The Sorcerer has more. Add in bonuses for intelligence and bonuses for bloodlines and it is a wash except the sorcerer can cast whatever they need or the same spell over and over again if preferred.

So if I am a Wizard and have every spell in the game in my spellbook, I can prepare 40 different spells even if I put a different spell in every slot. The Sorcerer has 43. Your argument just isn't supported by the facts that you are ignoring. Talking about high level spell? Same thing. The sorcerer knows 3+1 for bloodline. The Wizard can prepare 4+1 for Int+1 for bonus spells in alpha. So the Wizard has 6 different 9th level spells at best and the Sorcerer has 4. But the Sorcerer can cast hers 7 times assuming similar key ability scores. So the Sorcerer knows basically as many spells but gets nearly twice as many chances to use them.

I've explained this over and over again, but you just want to ignore what I am saying and then accuse me of doing the same to you. Whatever dude. There is a reason Wizards got boosted in the Beta. It wasn't because they were Ubermensch.


Tell you what, Brent.
Prepare me a sample Sorcerer's spell list. Level 15, or 16, or lower if you like. It shouldn't be too hard, right? I'll be able to prove my point pretty easily.

Wizards are the gods of 3E. They always have been. Core, multiple splatbooks, whatever. Show me a Sorcerer's spell list, and I'll show you the drawbacks, and show you a wizard's Spells Prepared.

Yes, spontaneous casting has versatility. No, it doesn't have as much as you think. For example, your sorcerer levels up to 6. Does he learn Fly? Haste? Stinking Cloud? Suggestion? What?

It's very disingenuous to say "the sorcerer knows 43 spells, the wizard can only prepare 40". Bonus spell slots (that even the universalist gets), bonus spells from a high INT, etc, for one thing... and the sorcerer knows THREE level seven spells. He knows THREE level 8 spells and three level 9 spells.
So what do you pick? Show me a spell selection, and I'll show you awesome spells you just plain won't be casting.

Dark Archive

LogicNinja wrote:

Tell you what, Brent.

Prepare me a sample Sorcerer's spell list. Level 15, or 16, or lower if you like. It shouldn't be too hard, right? I'll be able to prove my point pretty easily.

Wizards are the gods of 3E. They always have been. Core, multiple splatbooks, whatever. Show me a Sorcerer's spell list, and I'll show you the drawbacks, and show you a wizard's Spells Prepared.

Yes, spontaneous casting has versatility. No, it doesn't have as much as you think. For example, your sorcerer levels up to 6. Does he learn Fly? Haste? Stinking Cloud? Suggestion? What?

It's very disingenuous to say "the sorcerer knows 43 spells, the wizard can only prepare 40". Bonus spell slots (that even the universalist gets), bonus spells from a high INT, etc, for one thing... and the sorcerer knows THREE level seven spells. He knows THREE level 8 spells and three level 9 spells.
So what do you pick? Show me a spell selection, and I'll show you awesome spells you just plain won't be casting.

I'm willing to do that. Give me the building criteria and we can compare them. I know the gold pieces in gear they can have, I assume we will build using beta rules. Standard Point buy? As a matter of fairness, I think I would say that for the Wizard you get all the spells for leveling you would get, but anything above what is automatic has to be paid for in scribing cost. The actual cost of "getting" the spell to scribe is harder because different DM's do it different ways. What I am saying there is that it is hard to say how many spells a DM will allow a player to have acces to for scribing purposes for "free". Maybe a good compromise is pay the full scribing cost and say 50% of the cost of the spell if it were bought as a scroll for acces to scribe?

I'll build the sorcerer once we kind of agree on the building guidlines and then we can compare notes. This seems like a very fair way to compare the two classes to me. Gaming style is relevant to how strong each is (as the sorcerer has more staying power vs. more immediate punch for the wizard, but not sure how to equalize that for this comparison). Anyway, lets give it a whirl and see what we see.


Brent wrote:

I'm willing to do that. Give me the building criteria and we can compare them. I know the gold pieces in gear they can have, I assume we will build using beta rules. Standard Point buy? As a matter of fairness, I think I would say that for the Wizard you get all the spells for leveling you would get, but anything above what is automatic has to be paid for in scribing cost. The actual cost of "getting" the spell to scribe is harder because different DM's do it different ways. What I am saying there is that it is hard to say how many spells a DM will allow a player to have acces to for scribing purposes for "free". Maybe a good compromise is pay the full scribing cost and say 50% of the cost of the spell if it were bought as a scroll for acces to scribe?

I'll build the sorcerer once we kind of agree on the building guidlines and then we can compare notes. This seems like a very fair way to compare the two classes to me. Gaming style is relevant to how strong each is (as the sorcerer has more...

I plan on buying any spell past the first, paying the normal costs (50 gp/spell level to scribe it form another wizard's book; scribing costs aren't a factor with the Blessed Book), because spells you get are worth that much and are therefore part of the "wealth by level" a character should have. The Sorcerer just has his usual spells.

Level... let's go with 11 and 16 (the even ones favor the sorcerer,odd ones favor the wizard, due to spell level acquisition). Both will help make different points. 6 or 7 might be good, too (the decision about which third-level spell to get is a hard one).
Standard point-buy. Standard wealth. You can craft anything you have the right spell/feat for.

Question: do prestige classes that advance spellcasting grant the Wizard his bonus spells from his Arcane School? I'm going to assume not.

Dark Archive

LogicNinja wrote:
Brent wrote:

I'm willing to do that. Give me the building criteria and we can compare them. I know the gold pieces in gear they can have, I assume we will build using beta rules. Standard Point buy? As a matter of fairness, I think I would say that for the Wizard you get all the spells for leveling you would get, but anything above what is automatic has to be paid for in scribing cost. The actual cost of "getting" the spell to scribe is harder because different DM's do it different ways. What I am saying there is that it is hard to say how many spells a DM will allow a player to have acces to for scribing purposes for "free". Maybe a good compromise is pay the full scribing cost and say 50% of the cost of the spell if it were bought as a scroll for acces to scribe?

I'll build the sorcerer once we kind of agree on the building guidlines and then we can compare notes. This seems like a very fair way to compare the two classes to me. Gaming style is relevant to how strong each is (as the sorcerer has more...

I plan on buying any spell past the first, paying the normal costs (50 gp/spell level to scribe it form another wizard's book; scribing costs aren't a factor with the Blessed Book), because spells you get are worth that much and are therefore part of the "wealth by level" a character should have. The Sorcerer just has his usual spells.

Level... let's go with 11 and 16 (the even ones favor the sorcerer,odd ones favor the wizard, due to spell level acquisition). Both will help make different points. 6 or 7 might be good, too (the decision about which third-level spell to get is a hard one).
Standard point-buy. Standard wealth. You can craft anything you have the right spell/feat for.

Question: do prestige classes that advance spellcasting grant the Wizard his bonus spells from his Arcane School? I'm going to assume not.

Yeah. PRC's do not grant the bonus spell. However, for this comparison it is fairly moot anyway because we are doing a straight class comparison right? If we throw PRC's into the mix the possibilities become infinite and much harder to objectively compare. If we are using PRC's (and I think it isn't a good idea for this particular build), I suggest we stick to those only in the DMG. This is a busy week for me, but I will try to have this done and posted by no later than Saturday the 30th. I have my 2 youngest kids starting daycare this week and I am teaching a new class myself this semester so this week will be a really busy one. Still, worst case I will do it Saturday.

Good luck on your build. I look forward to seeing what this comparison will show.


I'll be interested to see the results of your builds. I'd be happy to referee (Personally I think they're equal so...)

On this point:

LogicNinja wrote:
Why don't you show me a Sorcerer's spell list at level 15 or 16? I'll show you a wizard's Spells Prepared.

LN - I think that's pretty much the crux here.

A wizard of equivalent level can have, essentially, any Sorcerer's spell list memorized. This gives them versatility to be prepared for their environment (Dungeon, Graveyard, Hell, etc.).

A Sorcerer on the other hand is pretty much forced to choose a versatile selection of widely useful spells, with maybe a few particularly effective "side deck" choices to handle specific situations. This gives them versatility to be prepared for the moment (heavy combat, lots of traps, specific energy-vulnerability, etc.) This is because once chosen, they can emulate any combination of wizard's spells memorized that includes those spells, and then cast an extra one spell per level on balance.

Thus - different roles :)


The sorcerer doesn't actually have much more staying power than the wizard, who gets 5/day counting school spells and doesn't have to deal with staggered casting. Oh, plus he can afford a better enhancement bonus to Int, because he made it himself for 1/2 price, whereas the sorcerer would have a much harder time doing that.

That said, I really think this argument should wait until there's a design forum for classes.


Questions on prohibited schools: does the old rule about only one for divination two for all others still apply or is it now flat two prohibited for all; and 2) is a wizard now allowed to drop divination or is that still a can't be prohibited school?


Steven Purcell wrote:
Questions on prohibited schools: does the old rule about only one for divination two for all others still apply or is it now flat two prohibited for all; and 2) is a wizard now allowed to drop divination or is that still a can't be prohibited school?

Diviners drop two schools now (but it's less of a big deal), and apparently wizards can now drop Divination.

Not that this really matters for my build, since Universalists are so clearly superior to the specialists.

My level 11 wizard is pretty much finished.


LogicNinja wrote:
Diviners drop two schools now (but it's less of a big deal), and apparently wizards can now drop Divination.

Not so much "less of a big deal" as "nothing at all." If you prep spells from your so-called "prohibited" classes, the only penalty is that you don't get the special ability that the Generalist didn't have to begin with. And divination is a particularly good school to drop since you generally won't need to cast divinations in less than a day's notice anyway, and those you would you can generally just scribe.


BlaineTog wrote:
LogicNinja wrote:
Diviners drop two schools now (but it's less of a big deal), and apparently wizards can now drop Divination.
Not so much "less of a big deal" as "nothing at all." If you prep spells from your so-called "prohibited" classes, the only penalty is that you don't get the special ability that the Generalist didn't have to begin with. And divination is a particularly good school to drop since you generally won't need to cast divinations in less than a day's notice anyway, and those you would you can generally just scribe.

Divinations like See Invisible, Telepathic Bond, perhaps Detect Scrying, True Strike, Greater Arcane Sight, etc, are useful on a daily basis.


LogicNinja wrote:
Divinations like See Invisible, Telepathic Bond, perhaps Detect Scrying, True Strike, Greater Arcane Sight, etc, are useful on a daily basis.

See Invisible is mostly only useful if you have a hunch that there's an invisible guy around, and if you're wrong, you just wasted a spell slot. Detect Scrying you can cast the night before you go adventuring and you're golden. True Strike is generally useless for casters (you're probably making a touch attack, in which case you'll almost certainly hit anyway. Anything else would be a waste of your time). Greater Arcane Sight is ok but doesn't look terribly useful to me, certainly not leaps and bounds better than a permanent Arcane Sight. Detect Magic is a terribly useful spell, but you can always just let the Cleric do the Detecting.


BlaineTog wrote:
See Invisible is mostly only useful if you have a hunch that there's an invisible guy around, and if you're wrong, you just wasted a spell slot. Detect Scrying you can cast the night before you go adventuring and you're golden. True Strike is generally useless for casters (you're probably making a touch attack, in which case you'll almost certainly hit anyway. Anything else would be a waste of your time). Greater Arcane Sight is ok but doesn't look terribly useful to me, certainly not leaps and bounds better than a permanent Arcane Sight. Detect Magic is a terribly useful spell, but you can always just let the Cleric do the Detecting.

See Invisible lasts 10 minutes/level. With a lesser rod of extend (3000 gp) that's 20 minutes/level. 2 extended castings should last you most of the adventuring day, and you'll always see invisible enemies.

Detect Scrying is ideally cast every day, so no one can scry on you while it's down.
True Strike is good to hit high touch ACs, or to guarantee hits.
Greater Arcane Sight shows you what buffs enemies have up (so, for example, whether or not they have, oh... spell turning). Moment of Prescience is good, Foresight is good, Scrying can be important...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Isn´t it a bit silly to agonize over the little difference in powerlevels between the Wizard and Sorcerer? Until high-level spells are fixed, both are still vastly more powerful than every non-caster.


LogicNinja wrote:


Yes, the Sorcerer casts spontaneously. Yes, this is an advantage. No, it's not more of an advantage than the Wizard knowing tons of spells, being able to cast 1/day spells like Overland Flight and Phantom Steed (which the Sorc can't waste a spell slot on), etc.

Just saying, my L15 sorcerer has known Phantom Steed since L11 - when you're a sorc, it's not a once/day spell, it's an "everyone in the party gets a horse with 240ft fly speed" spell. When everyone has a Steed, it totally trivializes most outdoor encounters - even flying opponents get left in the dust (dragons are the one big exception, and there you usually have a maneuverability advantage).

I have a friend with a L15 Living Greyhawk sorcerer with both Overland Flight and Phantom Steed. My sorc doesn't have Overland Flight, but Phantom Steed works well enough for everything but dungeon-crawls, and in dungeon-crawls I can usually keep Mass Fly running most of the time.

I can post my 3.5 sorcerer's L15 spell list if you like, but I guess we're primarily discussing Pathfinder here? In either edition, you can certainly point me to nice spells my sorcerer isn't able to cast (I have a long list of spells that would've been fun but didn't quite make the final cut at each level), but your wizard also can't reproduce what my sorcerer does by virtue of spontaneous casting (unless they guess correctly in advance *exactly* how many castings of each spell they will want that day, and with which metamagics applied).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
neceros wrote:
I have nothing to add except that I agree Sorcerers and Wizards need to be balanced some way.

That's right you added exactly nothing since you didn't indicate in which direction you preceive an imbalance whether the Wizard or the Sorcerer.

Personally I believe the sorcerer's casting flexibility balances out the Wizard's flexibility in preparation and the Wizard's slight advantage in spell level.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Steven Hume wrote:


that is one thing that bothers me about metamagic, there got to be a way for a wizard to use metamagic on the fly, i find that is the hardest choice for me to decide if i need that quicken teleport today, if there was a fair balanced way for a wizard to use metamagic on the fly i would be soo happy !!

Yes there is... it's called a metamagic rod with the appropriate feat.

Sovereign Court

Ifni wrote:


I can post my 3.5 sorcerer's L15 spell list if you like, but I guess we're primarily discussing Pathfinder here? In either edition, you can certainly point me to nice spells my sorcerer isn't able to cast (I have a long list of spells that would've been fun but didn't quite make the final cut at each level), but your wizard also can't reproduce what my sorcerer does by virtue of spontaneous casting (unless they guess correctly in advance *exactly* how many castings of each spell they will want that day, and with which metamagics applied).

LN already posted a link to a build. If some other people do the same, we can have an actual debate based on facts, the facts being people's builds.

Sovereign Court

Bagpuss wrote:


LN already posted a link to a build. If some other people do the same, we can have an actual debate based on facts, the facts being people's builds.

Anyone else going to post some characters to test the arguments? Of course, LN's manner arguably doesn't encourage participation; no one likes it being said or implied that they're idiots or misinformed or dishonest or whathaveyou. Shame, though, that we haven't seen the comparisons.

The most important issue, it seems to me, is whether many people are playing sorcerors and enjoying it all through and that's something that playtesting will tell (but judging the playtest feedback may be hard).


LazarX wrote:
That's right you added exactly nothing since you didn't indicate in which direction you preceive an imbalance whether the Wizard or the Sorcerer.

Which is why I prepended my statement how I did. It doesn't matter which I like over which:

Sorcerers shouldn't be behind wizards in spell levels.
Wizards shouldn't have to prepare their spells in advance.
Sorcerers shouldn't feel so limited in their selection.
Wizards shouldn't get so little spells per day.

It goes on, on both ends. Ultimately, we should adopt Arcana Evolved's solution and mix both systems together.


Bagpuss wrote:
The most important issue, it seems to me, is whether many people are playing sorcerors and enjoying it all through and that's something that playtesting will tell (but judging the playtest feedback may be hard).

I am playing a Sorcerer and I am having a BLAST.

I've not participated in most of this conversation because we're using alternate rules for our metamagic feats (3 x per day, but it doesn't use a higher slot. I do have to have *access* to the required slots, though.) Since is my first "D&D" game (well, okay, third or fourth, but the first one that lasted more than three sessions) I don't have much to compare to.

We started as Alpha 2, converted to Alpha 3 when it came out, and we're slowly converting over to Beta as we read the book and see what's changed.


Bagpuss wrote:
Anyone else going to post some characters to test the arguments? Of course, LN's manner arguably doesn't encourage participation; no one likes it being said or implied that they're idiots or misinformed or dishonest or whathaveyou. Shame, though, that we haven't seen the comparisons.

Someone holding a different opinion almost inevitably implies that they think you're misinformed. If I'm expressing disagreement, it's because, yes, I think you're wrong. This shouldn't be as huge a deal as it seems to be.

Bagpuss wrote:
The most important issue, it seems to me, is whether many people are playing sorcerors and enjoying it all through and that's something that playtesting will tell (but judging the playtest feedback may be hard).

I know when I play a sorcerer, I feel seriously restricted in terms of Spells Known.

Dark Archive

LogicNinja wrote:


I know when I play a sorcerer, I feel seriously restricted in terms of Spells Known.

Same here. I still like playing them, because I know what I getting into, but it is restricting. The worst part is that it applies to the higher level spells. Knowing 3 level 9 spells, 3 level 8 spells, 3 level 7 spells, and 3 level 6 spells is harsh.

Of course, that harshness is why its the least broken spellcaster, and from my experience, if you remove prepared spellcasting (ban wizard) and make the druid and cleric cast as spontaneous spellcasters (use the sorcerer spells per day, and spells known) the result is a lot less broken game (Spellcasters are still the best but much less powerful overall).


BM wrote:
LogicNinja wrote:


I know when I play a sorcerer, I feel seriously restricted in terms of Spells Known.

Same here. I still like playing them, because I know what I getting into, but it is restricting. The worst part is that it applies to the higher level spells. Knowing 3 level 9 spells, 3 level 8 spells, 3 level 7 spells, and 3 level 6 spells is harsh.

Of course, that harshness is why its the least broken spellcaster, and from my experience, if you remove prepared spellcasting (ban wizard) and make the druid and cleric cast as spontaneous spellcasters (use the sorcerer spells per day, and spells known) the result is a lot less broken game (Spellcasters are still the best but much less powerful overall).

This is actually a really good suggestion, and the one Arcana Evolved implemented. But they also allowed you to switch spells known each day.

Spellcasters are more or less balanced there (with weaker spells) but that system also has its faults (like overpowered metamagic system) and some broken spells (that lvl 8 Moonlight spell for instance).

As far as this discussion, Brent asked for suggestions of improving Sorcerers instead of nerfing Wizards.

So my suggestion is giving Sorcerers similar spell progression to wizards (that they gain new spell level at each odd level).

Sovereign Court

LogicNinja wrote:


Someone holding a different opinion almost inevitably implies that they think you're misinformed. If I'm expressing disagreement, it's because, yes, I think you're wrong. This shouldn't be as huge a deal as it seems to be.

Yeah, it doesn't bother me (as I said in that other thread, that got locked, so long as I'm learning I'm cool with it and even if I'm not learning I can ignore it). Obviously, however, not everyone is as perfect as me.

LogicNinja wrote:
I know when I play a sorcerer, I feel seriously restricted in terms of Spells Known.

That's exactly what's put me off playing one. Is the fix (without completely changing things) as simple as increasing the number of spells known?


Bagpuss wrote:
That's exactly what's put me off playing one. Is the fix (without completely changing things) as simple as increasing the number of spells known?

Fun-wise? Basically. Increase it a lot and this turns sorcerers into enormous powerhouses on par with wizards, though. It's giving them power with no drawbacks.


Bagpuss wrote:
That's exactly what's put me off playing one. Is the fix (without completely changing things) as simple as increasing the number of spells known?

He also needs to have his casting unstaggered (ie get access to new spells when the wizard gets them), and the metamagic time increase needs to be axed entirely (though this isn't as high up the priority list now that he can use quicken). But yeah, +1 spell known per level, even, would be a huge, huge difference and go a long way towards making the sorcerer an attractive choice. He doesn't need wings or energy resistance but more spells known slots!

Scarab Sages

sorcerers need to be dropped from the game in their entirety, and paladins and rangers should lose their spellcasting ability, and....

everything has an opinion about "x" class being "x" over "x" and in my game "x" player always does "x" with it, so "x" tends to be gimped/overpowered etc...

#1 rule in the game. if you don't like it, house rule it..


Fuelharp wrote:

sorcerers need to be dropped from the game in their entirety, and paladins and rangers should lose their spellcasting ability, and....

everything has an opinion about "x" class being "x" over "x" and in my game "x" player always does "x" with it, so "x" tends to be gimped/overpowered etc...

#1 rule in the game. if you don't like it, house rule it..

"It doesn't matter that the game is broken, because you can fix it yourself."

This is not an excuse for bad rules.


Fuelharp wrote:

sorcerers need to be dropped from the game in their entirety, and paladins and rangers should lose their spellcasting ability, and....

everything has an opinion about "x" class being "x" over "x" and in my game "x" player always does "x" with it, so "x" tends to be gimped/overpowered etc...

#1 rule in the game. if you don't like it, house rule it..

But the problem with house rules is that they might end up unbalancing stuff (we, the DMs, do not get payed to design RPGs). Not to mention you need to remember them and write them down and cannot just open a book to page x and look it up.

And new players do not like to come into groups with DMs that have lots of house rules.
BlaineTog wrote:
Bagpuss wrote:
That's exactly what's put me off playing one. Is the fix (without completely changing things) as simple as increasing the number of spells known?
He also needs to have his casting unstaggered (ie get access to new spells when the wizard gets them), and the metamagic time increase needs to be axed entirely (though this isn't as high up the priority list now that he can use quicken). But yeah, +1 spell known per level, even, would be a huge, huge difference and go a long way towards making the sorcerer an attractive choice. He doesn't need wings or energy resistance but more spells known slots!

I agree except on metamagic. By letting sorcerers using metamagic on the fly some penalty is needed. Longer casting time is a good one. And you can always take that feat that lets you use metamagic like the wizard and not have longer casting time.


But on the other hand, this will bring Sorcerers to the same level as wizards, and that is not good for non-caster classes.
They do not need another wizard-like character to boss them around at higher levels. I would be better to nerf other casters to level of Sorcerer for more balance.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LogicNinja wrote:


This is not an excuse for bad rules.

Just remember just because you don't like a rule doesn't make it "bad".

Sorcerers are the most versatile casters in the arcane game plain and simple they have advantages which are balanced by a limited spell selection and a slight delay in access to high level spells. That got a bit of a buff with bloodlines. If you can't see the Pathfinder changes as a major buff over 3.5 then I don't think that the Paizo folks can do anything to make you happy and still maintain thier stated goals.


LazarX wrote:
Sorcerers are the most versatile casters in the arcane game plain and simple they have advantages which are balanced by a limited spell selection and a slight delay in access to high level spells.

I think you need to look up the word versatile. The sorcerer is more flexible with the resources he has but the wizard is much much more 'versatile'.

As for the 'slight' delay, the sorcerer is 1/2 level behind the wizard and the wizard always has as many of the highest level spells as the sorcerer, even after the switch to bonus spells. For example at 6th level the wizard has 3 third level spells (not counting stat boosts) and the sorcerer has 3 third level spells. At 7th level the sorcerer adds another 3rd level spell while the wizard adds a 4th level spell (plus likely a stat bonus spell). It's a pattern that repeats at every level so this imbalance remains throughout the game. Yes, the two sorcerer has more lower level spells but it's the highest level spells where the most power is.

LazarX wrote:
That got a bit of a buff with bloodlines. If you can't see the Pathfinder changes as a major buff over 3.5 then I don't think that the Paizo folks can do anything to make you happy and still maintain thier stated goals.

I agree, the sorcerer is a much better class under the beta. Now if the wizard class had stayed still instead of getting a bump also then they would probably be reasonably close. The big elephant in the room is the universalist, the smaller elephant is the fact that specialists don't have to give up anything. Yeah that's right, Jason managed to stuff two elephants in here!


So let me repeat for those that didn't get it.
I believe sorcerers would get balanced by letting them get new spells at same levels as wizards. That would ask for a different spells known and spells cast per day tables.
Sorcerers need this more then they need extra spells.
This ways a lvl 5 Sorcerer would get 1 (ONE) lvl 3 spell 4 (3+1) per day and a lvl 5 wizard (specialist or universalist) would get 3 (THREE) slots to cast from, so he could put 3 different spells in them or 3 same ones as the sorcerer has (of course a lvl 5 wizard would only get 2 different spells automatically but can get others from scrolls or borrowed books).
I see this as balanced, maybe reducing sorcerers spells per day to 2 at the level they get new spells (although having one more spell then the wizard to cast would work to balance the lack of different spells).

Then at lvl 6 both get one more spell slot to cast per day, sorcerer gets one spell to know while wizard gets two new ones to his spell book.

I chose levels 5 and 6 because this is the point arcane spellcasters start getting really good spells (Fireball, Fly, Haste), but it works for all level ranges until lvl 19 (when no new spells levels are given).

And to balance Metamagic, maybe not allow Sorcerers to apply more then one metamagic feat to a single spell?!
Or let them use Quicken Spell only on spells they have picked when they were meditating (same as wizards do)?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
-Archangel- wrote:


And to balance Metamagic, maybe not allow Sorcerers to apply more then one metamagic feat to a single spell?!

Nothing in the Pathfinder or the standard SRD prohibits that. However a Sorcerer can't combine a metamagic feat with Quicken. (Well he could but there wouldn't be any point :)


IMHO,

WIzards are masters of planned spellcasting and Sorcerers are masters of spontaneous spellcasting, and this is as it should be. Each has his or her strengths and weaknesses when it comes to spellcasting. All in all, Sorcerers are much more powerful, spell vs. spell; They can pull a card out of their sleeve so to speak much more easily than Wizards. Wizards, however when prepared are more versatile and can counter a larger range of threats, again, given ample preparation.

I honestly used to think Sorcerers were too powerful, but after reviewing all their separate abilities, I think Wizards and Sorcerers are well suited for their individual roles, and this is the ultimate goal of a game system. If the GM of an individual campaign wishes to alter this, that is always the GM's choice.


Well, actually now a Sorcerer (or a Bard) CAN apply Quicken Spell to his/her spells (Beta Rules, pag. 77, upper-right corner of the page: "The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.").

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