|
A few humble suggestions from myself,
First off, I like the gray cover of the Alphas, and the earth-tone of the Beta is not bad. But I have no liking for the red cover that I presume is intended for the Final release?
Anyone else care about the colour? I personally would prefer a return to the gray, or maybe a nice blue. Just not a fan of energetic colours - I know they say red sells, but not to me. Any chance of a reconsideration?
Given the size of the Final, page-flipping could be an issue. I would love it if you somehow included a nice silk (or faux-silk) ribbon attached to the binding of the Final to be used as a bookmark (heck, even better would be multiple ribbons since the Final includes the 3 core books).
I scrounged up one myself for my adventures to bypass the crazy delve format, and I loved it. I prefer it over sticky tabs or paper slips, plus it is just classy. Especially if it had "Pathfinder" or "Paizo" embroidered on it (okay, maybe not actual embroidery).
I would gladly pay another $5-10 for such a feature.
It's only two core rulebooks, actually (no monsters). Still, several ribbons would totally rock.
As for the colour, I'd like mine in octarine, please.
|
I seem to remember this coming up in another thread. If I recall, Lisa and/or Erik said they looked into such things as special bindings and attached book marks etc ... they were not cost effective enough to do, so you most likely will not be seeing such things in the final book. They may have mentioned doing some sort of special collectors version of the book, which could include things like this, at some point if there was enough demand.
My own personal opinion is, adding another $10 or so (I just added an arbitrary, but probably realistic, amount) just for a bookmark is not worth the cost. The book is already going to be expensive - $50 is a good chunk of change for any of us. Bump it up to around $60 and I can bet you you will loose a fairly large number of potential customers. Certainly more than you would gain because it had a bookmark.
Maybe Paizo could print up some nice, custom bookmarks and give 'em away to the first 1000 people or so to buy the final book or something ...
As for color, I have to say that at this point, based on all of Paizo's previous products, I trust whatever they come up with. Regardless of the color, I'm sure they will make the product visually stunning.
|
|
So...I am guessing that the days of the dog-eared pages and bits of papers used as bookmarks in the PHB have gone the way of the Dodo bird...
Seriously, save the bookmarks or ribbons for special editions. Color coding or thumb prints on the side of the pages would go a loooong way to making quick searches easier. Failing that a piece of loose leaf always worked for me.
EDIT: true, the paper bits lack style but.....
|
|
Maybe Paizo could print up some nice, custom bookmarks and give 'em away to the first 1000 people or so to buy the final book or something ...
I can get behind that. Loose ribbons work just as well as attached ones, plus if we can buy them that gives me an unlimited supply.
And nothing says "I love Paizo" more than sticking a Paizo ribbon in other companies books.
|
I seem to remember this coming up in another thread. If I recall, Lisa and/or Erik said they looked into such things as special bindings and attached book marks etc ... they were not cost effective enough to do, so you most likely will not be seeing such things in the final book. They may have mentioned doing some sort of special collectors version of the book, which could include things like this, at some point if there was enough demand.
Yup, the idea was something along the Ptolus ribbons.
However a special set of card bookmarks (with the iconics, maybe?) would be less taxing on the final price of the book and equally pleasing.
Color coding or thumb prints on the side of the pages would go a loooong way to making quick searches easier.
Actually, that sounds like a great idea, and it wouldn't increase the cost of the book.
|
|
I seriously doubt the red cover is the final cover. While the inside art can be recycled, it doesn't make sense for them to use recycled art on the cover of the final book.
While I love Paizo, at $50 right now and probably more expensive when the final page count is hammered out, I don't plan on buying the rules twice for a special edition. So if they are going to do one, they better announce it now because I'll never get it otherwise.
at $50 right now and probably more expensive when the final page count is hammered out,
I believe Paizo is commited to the $50 price point. After all, they'd have to notify a LOT of preorders if the price went up, and still hear Bait-n-switch complaints. And the current page estimate if 500-600 pages, and the product page sais 560, I think its safe to say the price won't change unless something drastic happens (like hyperinflation of the dollar, or China doubling export costs on printed products).
|
|
at $50 right now and probably more expensive when the final page count is hammered out,I believe Paizo is commited to the $50 price point. After all, they'd have to notify a LOT of preorders if the price went up, and still hear Bait-n-switch complaints. And the current page estimate if 500-600 pages, and the product page sais 560, I think its safe to say the price won't change unless something drastic happens (like hyperinflation of the dollar, or China doubling export costs on printed products).
And yet they had to cut pages out of the Beta to make the beta's price point.
Regardless, I'm not going to spend another $75-100 on a special edition of the same rules.
And yet they had to cut pages out of the Beta to make the beta's price point.
The Beta costs a lot less than the Final, and is a shorter print run.
I'm not trying to srgue with you. I'm really just trying to be optimistic about the quality and price of the final.
Regardless, I'm not going to spend another $75-100 on a special edition of the same rules.
Fair enough. I wouldn't either. Maybe as a gift down the road, but not as a second copy.
at $50 right now and probably more expensive when the final page count is hammered out,I believe Paizo is commited to the $50 price point. After all, they'd have to notify a LOT of preorders if the price went up, and still hear Bait-n-switch complaints. And the current page estimate if 500-600 pages, and the product page sais 560, I think its safe to say the price won't change unless something drastic happens (like hyperinflation of the dollar, or China doubling export costs on printed products).And yet they had to cut pages out of the Beta to make the beta's price point.
Regardless, I'm not going to spend another $75-100 on a special edition of the same rules.
I doubt anyone will drop 75 to 100 on the core book. I might wind up with two of the 50 books though.
Creative Director
|
At this time, my understanding is that the final book will indeed have some new art and a different cover, but we're months and months and months away from making the decisions of what that art should be. There WILL be some reprinted art in the final, but said reprint art will mostly be the iconics and perhaps some race illos and item illos. How MUCH new art will be in there depends on the book's art budget, and that's not a number we've decided on yet (nor is it a number we'd want to post, in any event).
But yeah... I'm 95.5% sure that the red cover's not the FINAL cover.
And I believe we're going to do everything we can to keep the price at $50. We suspect that this book will be justified with a VERY large print run compared to, say, a Pathfinder Chronicles book or even the hardcover Campaign Setting, and larger print runs = more cost efficient for us to create = easier to hit a $50 price tag.
I'd rather prefer something like the Core rulebook covers. I think they had class.
True. Maybe somethin so it's look like an actual Pathfinder's journal or guidebook.
|
Core rule book-look vs Pathfinder fancy-"promotive" cover
Depends:
Will non-Paizo folks browsing the shelves be more likely to take a second look at a classy, Core-Book looking volume or a flashy, Setting-Book looking volume.
This is one of those decisions where I think the company is better to ignore us if their research indicates they should go with the option we Paizonians don't like as much.
Unless data show an equal chance either way.
Regardless, it should still be dedicated to me.
-W. E. Ray
You know, Led Zeppelin's final album had a number of alternate covers, one of which was just a plain paper bag. Wouldn't that be a neat idea.
As much as Paizo rocks, they're not Led Zepplin,
I agree with the idea of the classy journal-esque cover, I know a guy who completely forsook 4e because he hated the style of the covers, i.e. nothing like 3.5.
As much as Paizo rocks, they're not Led Zepplin
I kid. That would be marketing suicide, especially when the competition is the D&D brand itself.
As much as Paizo rocks, they're not Led Zepplin,
Brock Samson would agree with you wholeheartedly. Then probably kill you :)
|
|
There WILL be some reprinted art in the final, but said reprint art will mostly be the iconics and perhaps some race illos and item illos. How MUCH new art will be in there depends on the book's art budget, and that's not a number we've decided on yet (nor is it a number we'd want to post, in any event).
Not all of it has to be new. Some of the reused art in there is quite good.
I like...
Races line up. (P8)
The earth elemental belt seoni into the air while merisiel tumbles away. (P53)
Ninja seoni, the original ambush picture from D2. (P57,120)
Grappling (P78)
Fireball (P80)
Meteor Swarm (P88)
|
|
James is correct here, the red cover is just a mock up. The final will have original art and probably be entirely redesigned.
As for bookmarks, I would love to have one, but they are mighty expensive to add.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Cool, thanks for the feedback Jason and James. As my least favorite colour after yellow, I was not enthused about adding a red book to my collection (Spell Treasury and Crimson Throne not withstanding).
I still think a Gamemastery Bookmarks Collection would be snazzy! Pretty Please?
|
Creative Director
|
I like almost all of the art in the Beta, actually... but still, it looks a little lazy to me when a company relies TOO heavilly on recycled art. I understand WHY it happens (art is Very Expensive), but still.
In any case, that races line up is, I guarentee, one that will be redone for the final book. It's a nice piece of art, but it doesn't really match the overall style and look of our products, and we've made several minor adjustments to the way the races look since we ordered that piece of art about a year ago.
|
In any case, that races line up is, I guarentee, one that will be redone for the final book. It's a nice piece of art, but it doesn't really match the overall style and look of our products, and we've made several minor adjustments to the way the races look since we ordered that piece of art about a year ago.
About that races line-up... In the new one, can the models be wearing clothes? They'd just look cooler in full clothes than in underwear. And the underwear pic isn't really showing any unusual racial features, so it's unnecessary. Not that I'm offended by the lack of clothes-- It's just pointless and lacks cool. Thanks!
Trent
I've never liked that races lineup. Everyone looks like they were carved out of stone. It's eerie. I also know that there's been a tendency to exaggerate the ears a bit on the elves but I'd like to voice my preference for smaller ears that are more in line with Vulcans as opposed to Martian antennae length ears.
|
|
In any case, that races line up is, I guarentee, one that will be redone for the final book. It's a nice piece of art, but it doesn't really match the overall style and look of our products, and we've made several minor adjustments to the way the races look since we ordered that piece of art about a year ago.About that races line-up... In the new one, can the models be wearing clothes? They'd just look cooler in full clothes than in underwear. And the underwear pic isn't really showing any unusual racial features, so it's unnecessary. Not that I'm offended by the lack of clothes-- It's just pointless and lacks cool. Thanks!
Trent
I always got the impression was that having them in something other than underwear might give you an impression about classes and Classes, and what people of those classes/Classes can or should wear.
Underwear is the great equalizer!
I'd rather prefer something like the Core rulebook covers. I think they had class.True. Maybe somethin so it's look like an actual Pathfinder's journal or guidebook.
Seconded.
About that races line-up... In the new one, can the models be wearing clothes? They'd just look cooler in full clothes than in underwear. And the underwear pic isn't really showing any unusual racial features, so it's unnecessary. Not that I'm offended by the lack of clothes-- It's just pointless and lacks cool. Thanks!
I'm sure we can find a middle ground: Maybe do two line-ups: Male specimen that are fully clothed (let's say everyday clothes, no armour or anything) and female speciemen without any clothes (not even underwear) ;-)
Wait, I just remembered there are half-orcs and dwarves on that picture. Forget the whole idea.
In any case, that races line up is, I guarentee, one that will be redone for the final book. It's a nice piece of art, but it doesn't really match the overall style and look of our products, and we've made several minor adjustments to the way the races look since we ordered that piece of art about a year ago.
Oooo ooo ooo, suggestion.
Can you get wayne reynolds to do it similar to the races lineup in the Psionics handbook?
That pic was awesome. One of my favourites ever. Loved the elan.
I'm pro-underwear, its the tradition and as said above the great equalizer.
|
|
In any case, that races line up is, I guarentee, one that will be redone for the final book. It's a nice piece of art, but it doesn't really match the overall style and look of our products, and we've made several minor adjustments to the way the races look since we ordered that piece of art about a year ago.
Yeah, I have to agree here. That single piece of art, out of the entire 'book' just ... man, I ... I just HATE it! It is just not at all as good as the rest of the art in my opinion. It's also a completely different style and has an entirely different feel ... it actually seems like it was a mistake! It looks like it should be in some Japanese comic book or video game manual. I dislike it so much it actually detracts from the otherwise warm and fuzzy feelings I have reading the Alpha rules. It's probably the only thing I really don't like in the rules.
I, for one, thank God that art will be changed! I just wish it would be gone for the Beta ...
OK, rant over ...
I think we all know who it's being dedicated to. No, not Lilith. ;)
Dave Arneson?
I dont know why people like so much 3.* cover style and hate 4.0's... Illustrated covers are awesome! Thats what sells many novels, comics and, why not, RPG books! Its an instant attractive to anyone who is passing by, RPGer or not. I actually bought some of Eberron's books simply because of Wayne's covers.
3.* covers fullfilled its role back then: the change of gears of painting-style covers and art to something new. To classic layout to something modern. Thats it. Its done.
I loved 4th editions covers, even if the ruleset didn't attract me at all (and that some of the internal art sucks terribly). But art gets your attention and tells you a lot about what you will find inside. I dont want an old-looking tome of knowledge for a modern, dynamic game. I want action, dinamism, adventure! And Wayne Reynolds! ;)
Btw, once I emailed him and asked how much he charges for a single page cover with a combat scene (3 characters). Im still recovering from the answer. Of course it has to do with the pounds to reais transition of that price, but I still wonder how RPG books can make a profit considering how much a single cover costs (let alone a panel like in the Eberron line)
Ah, before I forget. Stay way from tieflings and similar things on the cover. I'm not sure if people know it, but the origial 4th edition players cover was turned down by Devir, the largest latin american and portuguese (and spanish?) RPG distributor because of the common belief in latin countries that RPG = devil worshiping ;)
I dont know why people like so much 3.* cover style and hate 4.0's... Illustrated covers are awesome! Thats what sells many novels, comics and, why not, RPG books! Its an instant attractive to anyone who is passing by, RPGer or not. I actually bought some of Eberron's books simply because of Wayne's covers.
I agree; the cover of the Eberron Campaign Setting (for instance) is about a zillion times more interesting than the 3.5 PHB cover.
|
|
I like the new covers as well. In a lot of ways they're a throwback to how the core books were designed before. The "tome" look only worked for me for a couple books... BoVD being one of them.
I don't mind artwork on the cover, but it can be subjective. A tome is a tome, love it or hate it. It is hardly possible to offend a large group of people with a tome-cover.
Looking at a 3.5 PHB and 2.5 PHB right now, I can honestly say I would rather have the 3.5 version on my bookshelf or sitting out on my table.
Now, if they combined the tome style with appropriate artwork, that would be super-flashy!
I rather enjoyed the 1E AD&D cover art and I hope they do something with characters who are engaging in some sort of adventurous activity on the cover, as opposed to going with the tome look. I like how the 3.5 core books turned out (probably because they're extra shiny), but I also see the attempts that others made to mimic the tome, and I don't think they turned out as well. Cover art, in my opinion, usually looks pretty cool, assuming that it's good art.
|
CEO
|
at $50 right now and probably more expensive when the final page count is hammered out,I believe Paizo is commited to the $50 price point. After all, they'd have to notify a LOT of preorders if the price went up, and still hear Bait-n-switch complaints. And the current page estimate if 500-600 pages, and the product page sais 560, I think its safe to say the price won't change unless something drastic happens (like hyperinflation of the dollar, or China doubling export costs on printed products).
Just wanted to point out that IF we ever raise the price on a future product, we WON'T raise the price on any preorders accepted up to that point. Basically, the early bird gets the worm and the cheaper price. Another reason to preorder products that you think you might like early.
-Lisa
|
CEO
|
I have a humble suggestion, too.
It should be dedicated to me.
Just a suggestion.
*Casts SuggestionOoh, even better (or almost as good) -- dedicate it to WotC!
-W. E. Ray
Made my Will save. :) Also, remember that any Paizo employee gets a +4 on all saving throws on this website against any effects which require a save. Nice try. :)
-Lisa
