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I used to read a lot of FR novels. I don't read many anymore. The last few I have read were ruined by the numerous references to the spellplague even though the novels took place before the spellplague. I think that post spellplague FR novels won't be the cash cow they used to be. It looks like a lose lose situation to me. What was the point?
I'm no fan of the Forgetable Realms, but it strikes me as interesting that the main defenders of 4th ed. (who post on these message boards), are quite absent on this thread. Wonder why?...
Well 4e rules are not the blame for what was done to the realms. You could have made 4e rules work with the realms I have heard folks who make GURPS work with the realms.
Sorry but I dislike 4e myself however, the rule set is not to blame for the mademax version they made.
My question was both sarcastic and rhetorical. My point is, there are several posters on these message boards who are so slavish in their devotion to/and defense of 4th edition, (and they most know who they are) that I am surprised that those posters haven't attempted to "explain" why the "destruction of the forgotten realms" since the release of 4th edition, was actually a good thing.
Well truth is 4e crusaders are powerless before the wraith of pissed off realms fans
Sounds like they are. And silent too...
Soon . . . give it time.
However, I would guess that part of the reason stems from the fact that many people that liked the Realms were passionate about it. Many of them loved it, as opposed to simply preferring it to other settings.
I suspect (and forgive me if I'm wrong) that a lot of 4E fans of the Realms, "like" the Realms, as in, its a campaign setting that succeeds in what it was designed to do . . . provide a home for 4E and its base assumptions.
I suspect (and forgive me if I'm wrong) that a lot of 4E fans of the Realms, "like" the Realms, as in, its a campaign setting that succeeds in what it was designed to do . . . provide a home for 4E and its base assumptions.
Errant Jr, I think you are probably correct in this statement (I'm resisting my long-term propensity of antagonizing you:)
Those who do like this (FR) campaign setting, (unless they are fairly new to it) will undoubtedly know enough about the setting and its history, to find the wholesale changes made to it since the release of 4th edition, not to their liking. If one didn't like the FR as previously constituted in 1st to 3rd edition d&d, then the recent/4ed. changes to the FR likely wouldn't bother that person, save perhaps as a sympathetic observer.
The WoTC sycophants have unceasingly defended every blunder that their beloved company has made thus far in the 4th ed. experience (even though they deny their slavish loyalty in an effort to appear objective). I was hoping to be humored by them here on this thread also. The reason being that the "offense" committed against the FR setting and its fans by the WoTC designers, is (even to a FR hater like myself) inexcusable and can't be reasonably defended.
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The WoTC sycophants have unceasingly defended every blunder that their beloved company has made thus far in the 4th ed. experience
Can we not bash fellow gamers who like stuff that we don't? It's pointless.
Also, having been bashed a lot by some of the more virulent 4E enthusiasts (enthusiasts, much nicer word than 'fanbois' or whatever), I am disheartened to see their behavior justified by the same sort of attitude 'on this side.'
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It would be nice to see a concerted effort of t-shirts at Gen Con to voice what is seemingly difficult to voice elsewhere...
Anyone with a budget within earshot.... we need 30,000 T-Shirts that say one of the following:
> Virtual DDI Table-top Rotten Tomato - Gamers Revolt
> No More Wotci Promises - Gamers Revolt
> Friends Don't Let Friends Destroy The Forgotten Realms
> The WOTCI - The Modern-Day Terrasque
> The Ringlords Tried To Stop OGL - The Fellowship Is Just Getting Started!
> Someone Couldn't Imagine 4nything New
> GYGAX and ARNESON Should Be Honored In Every Book
> 3.5 NEVER DIES!
> 3.5 THRIVES! PAIZONIANS LOVE OGL
> THE SPELLPLAGUE NEVER HAPPENED! 1373 D.R.-It Was a Very Good Year!
> GYGAX LIVES!
> UNLOCK THE .PDFs, Disney!
> What They Did To The Forgotten Realms Makes Me Sick.
> Which Wizard Is Getting Fired This Th4nksgiving?
> Poor Customer Service = DDI
> 4Gotten Reams - Its Not Just 4 Gamers Anymore.
> My Gol3m Ate Your Wiz4rds
...just off the top of my head. Any investors wanna hand these out as a peaceful demonstration?
> Note: Pax=Peace. Always be kind to one another, but T-Shirts = Free Speech. Let your voice be heard.
> Vot3 With Your Doll4r
I hope at Gen Con people ask Wizards employees the real, hard questions about this, and don't accept evasions or contentless marketing-speak. I gather people rather wussed out (or weren't at the seminars) last year.
Since I was sitting with the Candlekeep contingent last year . . . we asked a few questions, but by the time Gen Con rolled around, most of us were pretty battered by what we knew for sure. In fact, we discussed going or not going before the seminar.
Also, after a few kinda pointed questions from our direction, we noticed that the people that were known RPGA players/DMs/organizers suddenly got called on a lot more than our side of the room.
Plus, it was really confusing even trying to follow some of the comments.
"The Cormyr article is Dragon is a great example of what we want to see in Dragon, and the kind of thing we want to present as DDI content. But we don't really want that level of detail in every article. Its a good example of what we want, but don't go in trying for that level of detail, because we want to leave things open. We don't really want to detail the years between the Spellplague and starting date of the 4E campaign setting."
"Bruce Cordell's new novels will be showing some of what happens from the time of the Spellplauge and how things got to be the way they are."
"We really wanted to make a break from having powerful characters that overshadowed the players, and we felt the best way to do this was to have a clean break where the entire world was unknown."
"One of the products we have coming up that we are sure that Forgotten Realms fans are going to be excited about the Reader's Guide to the Legend of Drizzt."
I was starting to get whiplash.
The most gratifying thing at the seminar (other than Ed's sense of humor), was Phil Athans' comment that he felt that the misconceptions that various people had stated over the years, the very comments that led to the reworking of the Realms, were a "misconception that has unfortunately gained a lot of traction."
Pax, seriously, none of that will do anything positive. In fact, its the kind of virulent off the cuff comment that Mike Lescault made fun of and used to characterize all critics of 4E so as not to have to take the comments of such people seriously.
Those who do like this (FR) campaign setting, (unless they are fairly new to it) will undoubtedly know enough about the setting and its history, to find the wholesale changes made to it since the release of 4th edition, not to their liking. If one didn't like the FR as previously constituted in 1st to 3rd edition d&d, then the recent/4ed. changes to the FR likely wouldn't bother that person, save perhaps as a sympathetic observer.
That's probably an accurate description of myself. Personally, the changes to the Realms don't affect me, but I am sympathetic to how others have been hurt by what has been done. I suspect a lot of the other 4E players on these boards are similarly sympathetic.
The WoTC sycophants have unceasingly defended every blunder that their beloved company has made thus far in the 4th ed. experience (even though they deny their slavish loyalty in an effort to appear objective). I was hoping to be humored by them here on this thread also. The reason being that the "offense" committed against the FR setting and its fans by the WoTC designers, is (even to a FR hater like myself) inexcusable and can't be reasonably defended.
I think this is being unnecessarily abusive to some of the people who post on these boards that are pro-4E. Sure some of them can be a bit abrasive, but I wouldn't call them slavishly loyal to WotC. Perhaps the lack of posts from these supposed "WoTC sycophants" is an indication that they are more reasonable than you seem willing to admit. I like 4E, but that doesn't stop me admitting that I think WotC have made some serious blunders lately.
Peace.
I'm no fan of the Forgetable Realms, but it strikes me as interesting that the main defenders of 4th ed. (who post on these message boards), are quite absent on this thread. Wonder why?...
There are a number of reasons that I can see. First, it's on the 3.5 boards (for whatever reason), so it doesn't really grab 4th Edition players' attention. Also, there's not a lot of incentive for us to pipe up in a thread where we're being (preemptively!) called sycophants, where WotC is being subjected to all manner of insults (many incorporating the subject of 4e), and where it's pretty clear that actually discussing the topic in a back-and-forth manner without needless vitriol probably isn't something that's in the cards.
It is nice to see a few people trying to keep the thread calm, though. Kudos.
Sorry, KE, I was being a bit glib there -- I know you didn't have much time to react. How about a Candlekeep.com thread to work out in advance what (and how) you might ask/say this time?
I'm always interested to hear from Phil Athans, because his side of things hasn't communicated as much to us as the game people.
Oh, don't worry. I had a lot of things that I wish I had asked that would have been respectful, but a lot more useful and, well, harder hitting, than the few things I did come up with.
How about a Candlekeep.com thread to work out in advance what (and how) you might ask/say this time?
That's probably a good idea, but I lament the fact that I'm not going to be able to make it to Gen Con this year, which is a shame, because I had a lot of fun not only meeting with the Paizo folks last year, but also with some of the Candlekeep scribes that I've talked to over the years, but have never had faces to put with the names.
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I'm no fan of the Forgetable Realms, but it strikes me as interesting that the main defenders of 4th ed. (who post on these message boards), are quite absent on this thread. Wonder why?...
It's the one issue they really cannot defend. They have some points about a lot of the criticisms about 4e, but the "4gotten Realmz" are indefensible if you're talking to life long fans.
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It's the one issue they really cannot defend. They have some points about a lot of the criticisms about 4e, but the "4gotten Realmz" are indefensible if you're talking to life long fans.
That's kinda the point. I know not a single person who loved the 3E Realms and equally loves the 4E Realms. And those people liking the 4E Realms to whom I talked to, like it exactly for the reason that it got rid of all the stuff life long fans love so much.
I'd gets worse if you ask them why they wouldn't have simply ignored the things they didn't like. Because then they admit that part of their problem is that they're thinking it's easier if the material is removed because then they don't have to argue with us people who had 20+ years time to digest and memorize this stuff.
So in short: There are at least some people who like the 4E realms not for getting rid of all the content. They like it for getting rid of us.
So in short: There are at least some people who like the 4E realms not for getting rid of all the content. They like it for getting rid of us.I never thought of it like that.
The argument "Less is more" is stupid anyway. Between the trash novels and DDI's FR crumbs, and possible more Computer Games, the setting they are calling the Forgotten Realms sooner or later will again provide a bareer of entry for new DMs unwilling to read up and unable to ignore those details.
The argument "Less is more" is stupid anyway. Between the trash novels and DDI's FR crumbs, and possible more Computer Games, the setting they are calling the Forgotten Realms sooner or later will again provide a bareer of entry for new DMs unwilling to read up and unable to ignore those details.So in short: There are at least some people who like the 4E realms not for getting rid of all the content. They like it for getting rid of us.I never thought of it like that.
Like I have said before, I hate the realms and I hate 4e. That said, this is an excellent point. D&D has "lost" new people interested in roleplaying to other game companies due to the astonishing amount of reading one had to do in order to be "up to date" on events in the realms. A tabula rasa is not necessarily a bad thing in this regard.
Like I have said before, I hate the realms and I hate 4e. That said, this is an excellent point. D&D has "lost" new people interested in roleplaying to other game companies due to the astonishing amount of reading one had to do in order to be "up to date" on events in the realms. A tabula rasa is not necessarily a bad thing in this regard.
You didn't have to do all that reading. Most DMs likely never used all that material, nor felt they had to. It was an option, which was removed. And the inexpereinced GMs won't have material to fall back on, to felsh out stuff they cannot do themselves.
Economically, driving away people who bought all material coming out for the FR in order to have a chance at attracting people who don't like to read doesn't strike me as a sensible move if one plans to keep selling lots of books. Given my spending habits I bought more FR books than ten "new DMs" who only buy 1 or two books each put together - and I doubt I am an exception.
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A light reading on Kotter's stages of change, or other such analysis reveals, we're still at the "raise awareness" stage. My fear has never been that good folks will band together and take action, its been that corporations are banking that the public's memory is very short when it comes to being screwed.
Its not easy to undo what has been done for years, and people, and their paradigms take time to change. Where as Scott B would have us say, "its been a year, time to forget and move on," I suggest "its been a year, time to take action and make our voices heard". As consumers we're not privy to the ideas as the become decisions, we're brought in last minute when the s&$@ hits the shelves. Because of that, some companies bank on consumers getting caught like dear-in-headlights, unable to make sense enough of a convoluted situation to speak-out right away.
That's why a lot of last year was "wait-and-see." Reasonable people do so. Now that we've waited, now that we've seen, it is time to speak up! Find a way, today, at Gen Con, and after Gen Con, to make your voice heard. The risk of not taking action, may perpetuate the myth that consumers are sheep, to be led wherever the marketing team takes them. I don't think that's true of the gaming community - I think gamers are very smart, talented, and independent-minded people. But for too many years, the paradigm has been to follow the 100% Official Content. And with the abandonment of Greyhawk, and the Destruction of the Forgotten Realms, perhaps only now is the veil lifted - as we see other publishers providing as much, or better, quality products (in some ways more true, more genuine, more sensible, and more related to 30+ years of history and tradition).
I am not concerned about folks who want less, so they need to think less, or know less. Our game is about wanting more, thinking deeply, and imagining more.
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And yet fifty weeks on from your first post on this thread I am seeing posters who seem to me to be intelligent and articulate still going around in circles, still writing the same things that were being said back on page 1.
It frustrates and depresses me to see those who could be out there building worlds of their own having instead become trapped and defined by one (to my mind questionable) decision made by a corporation.
:(
Well, I respect your opinion a lot, CE35. I'll think about what you've said some more.
eh, we like to b*#$&. Kinda hard seeing a setting you have run for 16 years get mangled into something not it at all.
Besides this thread keeps some folks from threadcrapping in other FR threads...I think
And yet fifty weeks on from your first post on this thread I am seeing posters who seem to me to be intelligent and articulate still going around in circles, still writing the same things that were being said back on page 1.
It frustrates and depresses me to see those who could be out there building worlds of their own having instead become trapped and defined by one (to my mind questionable) decision made by a corporation.
:(
I actually did try to stay away from this thread for a good long while so that I wasn't just complaining and saying the same thing over and over again. Sadly, while I love Candlekeep and the place was like a second home, that's why my posting there has dramatically dropped off. I really can't come up with anything new to say about the situation.
On the other hand, I'm not sure why, but I was triggered to jump back into this thread recently. Part if it, and I'm not proud to say it, was the fact that, early on in the thread, there had been comments about not knowing for sure what was in the new FRCG, and how, despite tons of previews and comments from designers and writers, we didn't "know" for sure what was going to happen in the Realms.
Then it ended up being pretty much as bad if not worse.
So, yeah, a year later my resolve slips a bit, my anger flares up a little bit, and I vent a little, almost as a commemoration of the fast approaching "official" anniversary of all of those changes that I disliked being set in stone.
I'll likely wander back out again, and I apologize for wallowing a bit. Thankfully I've got a Legacy of Fire game tonight and I've got to get my cleric of Saranrae ready to go . . .
yeah we have, best to contain it here then let it build and we start crapping in other threads.
I am not sure why but my anger of it has not cooled at all.
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Thankfully I've got a Legacy of Fire game tonight and I've got to get my cleric of Saranrae ready to go . . .
Have a great game, KEJR. I think its safe to say this thread will always be a welcome haven for those injured by the spellplague and the 100 year jump.
In many ways, no matter how much I process my emotion about this funked up situation - I come back empty too. And yes, you point out that old wounds that never healed are feeling a bit ripped open with the upcoming anniversary.
*sigh*
Edit: And the butt-headed tieflings, and the disappearance of gnomes, and the sudden unnatural appearance of new land masses, and the rewriting of history, and the swapping out of gods, and the killing of gods, and the dump soap-opera explanations we've been given.....
*sigh*
See, there it goes again...
I'm no fan of the Forgetable Realms, but it strikes me as interesting that the main defenders of 4th ed. (who post on these message boards), are quite absent on this thread. Wonder why?...
Every time somebody who likes 4e tries to say anything positive about it in a thread bashing 4e or WotC, posters show up from every corner to say they should leave because it's not in the 4e section and everybody else justs wants a place to complain about 4e and WotC.
Here is a thread of pure complaints and now you're asking for us to show up? Does that mean you're getting tired of just complaining?
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I'm no fan of the Forgetable Realms, but it strikes me as interesting that the main defenders of 4th ed. (who post on these message boards), are quite absent on this thread. Wonder why?...Every time somebody who likes 4e tries to say anything positive about it in a thread bashing 4e or WotC, posters show up from every corner to say they should leave because it's not in the 4e section and everybody else justs wants a place to complain about 4e and WotC.
Here is a thread of pure complaints and now you're asking for us to show up? Does that mean you're getting tired of just complaining?
Two quick thoughts, well three actually. 1) I like you Ghettowedge, I do think you add value to conversations 2) I'm neither tired of complaining about FR, nor asking for anyone to show up - 3) When Scott shows up, he does exactly what you describe in a manner of defense that summons the swarm.... so, I do understand what you're saying.
Fact is, they mangled the realms. And we're sick over it. What's your take?
The Idea of having a detailed and fleshed out campaign setting was to make a DMs work easier, Gygax mentions this in the 1e DMG. Campaign worlds are almost a full time job, something I just cant do.
We where told to dump our FR campaigns to fit this new concept, and well its almost like losing a best friend, or seeing your house destoyed by reckless vandals.
3.X changed some things, but it was easy to gloss over and even ignore (Halflings deformed heads, lame) but you cant do that anymore.
FR is a brand name now, a corperate tool used to drive sells, thats it. And thats sad.
Look Im all for Capitalism! I love it! But when a coparation loses sight of what made it great, what are you left with? General Motors? What drives WotC these days? The Love of the Game or the love of the Gain?
Pre-Hasbro WotC loved the Game, saved it! But what is it now? Seeing FR in this state now suggest to me that WotC care little for its founding Fan Base. But something they may be forgetting, my kids the ones they are so eager to trarget now, well it my money they will us to buy WotC products, and as of right now that aint gonna happen.
stupid rant over.
Eric
Two quick thoughts, well three actually. 1) I like you Ghettowedge, I do think you add value to conversations 2) I'm neither tired of complaining about FR, nor asking for anyone to show up - 3) When Scott shows up, he does exactly what you describe in a manner of defense that summons the swarm.... so, I do understand what you're saying.
Fact is, they mangled the realms. And we're sick over it. What's your take?