|
This isn't a 4E rant, so please don't turn it into one.
Prior to the 3.5 PHBII release, I was hoping it would be an "alternative" or "replacement" PHB, containing an all new selection of Races, Classes, Feats, Equipment, Spells etc, but otherwise containing a full set of playable rules, including Skills and Combat, just as the PHBI did. In other words, a new player could purchase PHBII *without* having previously purchased PHBI, and play a game right out of the book. I remember speculating about this on the Wizards boards at the time.
Unfortunately, when released, the 3.5 PHBII book didn't adopt this format. The book could only ever sell to existing D&D players, and not bring in new ones. Birthday presents are always an opportunity to introduce someone to D&D - but if I thought my nephew might enjoy playing something like a Dragon Shaman, I couldn't buy him PHBII, because he doesn't already have PHBI. Same problem with ALL the other Race and Class splatbooks.
I remember the change-over from 2nd to 3rd Edition. This was an exciting time with many improvements to the game. Therefore, when 4E was first announced, I was really looking forward to it, much of what they promised sounded intriguing! though the more they revealed, the less I liked. Though one concept that still intrigues me is the much-debated model of releasing a new PHB, MM, DMG each year.
Again, I raised the idea on the Wizard's boards of subsequent PHBs following the same format as the original, with new Races, Classes, Feats, Equipment, Spells etc, but otherwise containing a full set of playable rules, including Skills and Combat.
However, I was almost universally shot down in flames :-( Their claims were two-fold:
- that no-one would purchase a book that re-printed entire chapters of Skills or Combat rules;
- it is well known that the Wizards business model sells more of the three CORE books than any other title - if players could buy PHBIII without having first purchased PHBI, then Wizards wouldn't make as much money.
My arguments are:
- not all players are interested in playing Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, so why force-sell PHBI onto players that don't want or need it?;
- there may be new Races or Classes in subsequent PHBs that appeal to players more than the original Classes (eg, Tiefling, Warlock or whatever);
- EVERY PHB release should allow players to get into the game straight away, effectively making ALL PHBs an entry-point best-seller, and not just another accessory;
- players will still purchase MORE than one PHB if they want to mix a Race from one book and a Class from another, I don't think anyone need fear a sales decline if PHBI is no longer a required purchase;
- the amount of reprinted chapters would be kept to a minimum - Skills and Combat are the chapters that stand out - Feats, Spells etc would be tailored to the Races, Classes or themes contained within the book (though still usable by characters built using other PHBs);
- the benefits of repeating Skills and Combat in every release (easy entry-point for new gamers; only having to carry the ONE book relating to your character choice to your next game) far outweigh the alternative;
- this isn't a new idea, other game systems routinely reprint common rules - WhiteWolf: Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, Changeling; or any number of D20 spin-offs - it goes with the territory.
Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see whether 4E's PHB-2-3-4-n go down this model or not.
So, what has this to do with Pathfinder RPG?
Okay, I admit, this discussion is probably premature right now as Pathfinder RPG hardcover isn't due out for another year and Paizo's MM replacement hasn't been scheduled yet; Golarion has been marketed as human-centric and core-races only; Paizo's focus is publishing top-quality adventures - Pathfinder RPG was necessary to support their adventures only because 3.5 Core Rules are rapidly becoming out-of-print for new players; Paizo aim to provide player support (Feats, Prestige-Classes etc) in their Pathfinder Chronicles line; and a million other reasons.
However, many customers are eager to purchase Pathfinder RPG, and I don't think the demand will stop there. Paizo have previously supplied new Races, Base Classes, Feats, Spells etc during their publishing years for Dragon magazine - check out the Dragon Compendium! If there is a demand, someone will supply it.
I am just suggesting a model beyond the splatbook one. Pathfinder RPGII - a fully playable alternative to Pathfinder RPGI. Mix and match Races and Classes from either volume - or just carry the volume you need to your next game. Don't shut players out of volume III because they didn't purchase volume I.
Oh, and one more reason this model might not fit Pathfinder - the Beta is already 408 pages! If this model were to be followed, to keep the page-count down, subsequent Pathfinder RPG volumes may need to skip the GM-related content. GMs could still purchase Pathfinder RPGI for that content. Just a suggestion.
|
Please stay away from the 2, 3, etc. books. Between the Companions and Adventure Paths there are enough player options. Pathfinder RPG, Pathfinder Monsters, Pathfinder Psionics, and Pathfinder Epic are all we need. If there is a part 2 book, it should be another monster book to continue to compile and expanded the monster library.
Creative Director
|
The final Pathfinder RPG is actually going to be longer even than the Beta; it's going to be pretty enormous.
That doesn't impact the size of "sequels" though, since a PF RPG II or whatever that would be called wouldn't have to reprint the core basics of the rules like ability score creation, combat rules, equipment, and the like... just like the PHB 2 didn't reprint.
For Golarion, there's not really a need for a new book that gives rules for exotic races or the like, since Golarion is not a place where pterodactyl-folk PCs or half-chimera PCs adventure... at least, not as I envision Golarion, it's not. But that certainly doesn't mean that in other folk's games Golarion can't be a place like that.
More to the point, the Pathfinder RPG isn't just for Golarion. Just as the 3.5 PH & DMG, it's a relatively world-neutral system of rules that can be used for ANY campaign. When you look at it that way, creating a supplementary book like Unearthed Arcana or the Player's Handbook 2 is an interesting idea... an idea that, frankly, will depend on the popularity of the PF RPG. At this point, the flagship of Paizo is the Golarion stuff, in particular the Adventure Paths. That's the content we'll be primarily supporting. But I suspect we WILL be producing some world-neutral books to support the PF RPG as well, and if those end up being as popular as the Adventure Path or the Chronicles products like the Gazetteer or Classic Monsters, there's really no limit to the types of books we can produce.
If we DO produce those types of books, we'll probably include "In Golarion" sections that list what new rules would work well in Golarion, and what ones would not.
But that's still quite a far way away.
I don't see any reason to say that I don't want a "Pathfinder II" book that reprint the rules from the first set of Pathfinder rules (although I HAVE said it); it's inefficient and a waste of resources and I don't want to have to pay for it. I don't see any reason to say it because I don't believe Paizo would ever do it. Paizo, like Wizards before them, and also, incidently, White Wolf, will make their money off the main book, and people will buy additional products because they have the main book (White Wolf, in it's current incarnation, printed the main rules for ALL of their games in one book, and the books for Vampire, Mage, et al. contain only rules that supplement the main rules).
However, I was almost universally shot down in flames :-( Their claims were two-fold:
- that no-one would purchase a book that re-printed entire chapters of Skills or Combat rules;
This is, I think, the rub, especially given that the SRD is available for free. It's marginally better for new players, but much much worse for everyone else.
- not all players are interested in playing Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, so why force-sell PHBI onto players that don't want or need it?;
Because the game has to have some sort of base setting assumptions in order for anything to function. If the players don't like the base assumptions of D&D, maybe they should play a different game rather than play against type.
- there may be new Races or Classes in subsequent PHBs that appeal to players more than the original Classes (eg, Tiefling, Warlock or whatever);
What's the benefit of putting these in "players handbooks" rather than just normal supplements?
- the amount of reprinted chapters would be kept to a minimum - Skills and Combat are the chapters that stand out - Feats, Spells etc would be tailored to the Races, Classes or themes contained within the book (though still usable by characters built using other PHBs);
First, even just skills + combat is a lot of pages, but the fact of the matter is there are a number of feats which everyone would need access to, and the same goes for spells. The upshot is you have upwards of 100 pages of dead space in each of these PHBs.
- the benefits of repeating Skills and Combat in every release (easy entry-point for new gamers; only having to carry the ONE book relating to your character choice to your next game) far outweigh the alternative;
The alternative being the DM brings either his laptop or one set of core books and everyone else doesn't have to carry around books with 1/3 totally useless pages?
- this isn't a new idea, other game systems routinely reprint common rules - WhiteWolf: Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, Changeling; or any number of D20 spin-offs - it goes with the territory.
No, New World of Darkness uses the D&D model, with one core book containing the rules and then one book for each major game line. However, theirs is a much different game from D&D anyway, where crossover games are the exception rather than the rule.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
So.........Still no to catfolk then?Forget catfolk. I want Rakasta! (See avatar). I know they're WotC IP, but they are the coolest race ever, so they will be present in my Golarion, even if they're never official for the setting or even in 3.5 rules.
Look to the Scarred Lands Terlai for a good OGL catfolk.
|
|
That doesn't impact the size of "sequels" though, since a PF RPG II or whatever that would be called wouldn't have to reprint the core basics of the rules like ability score creation, combat rules, equipment, and the like... just like the PHB 2 didn't reprint.
But that was kind of the whole point of my post - that PHB 2 and other Race/Class splatbooks were a missed opportunity because they *didn't* reprint the core basics of the rules - no matter how cool the introduced Races/Classes were, they're really only marketable to existing players, and remain largely inaccessible to new players. When acquisition of new players is such a dark cloud hanging over this hobby, instead let's create a system where new players can be pulled into the game with *any* shiny new sequel to the PHB.
Let's start with Pathfinder RPG volume II - TianXia, for example!
For Golarion, there's not really a need for a new book that gives rules for exotic races or the like, since Golarion is not a place where pterodactyl-folk PCs or half-chimera PCs adventure... at least, not as I envision Golarion, it's not. But that certainly doesn't mean that in other folk's games Golarion can't be a place like that.
People pull extreme examples when referring to non-core Races - "robots have no place in my game!" etc. Though I'm sure there are many non-core Races that would be perfectly suited to Golarion. When I first saw the Lyrakien (Pathfinder 2), I immediately thought of Arcana Evolved's sprite-like Faen, and how cool it might be to play one in Golarion. I've also posted several times on how I've incorporated Raptorans from Races of the Wild under Desna's portfolio. Neither of these would be out of place within Varisia, within the right context.
Some of us have been playing Elves, Dwarves and Halflings for over 20 years now, and while I appreciate the need for "world-neutral" core Races, if 3.5 has taught me anything, it's that D&D can encompass a much broader range of fantasy experience than Tolkien's example.
Of course, we can continue to use books such as Races of the Wild to provide these aspects to our games, but with D&D 3.5 and D20 logo books evaporating from store shelves, new players will need to look to new sources for these options. Okay, there's eBay, but you get my point. "Goblins as Characters" sidebars in Pathfinder bestiaries will also help.
If we DO produce those types of books ... but that's still quite a far way away.
Completely understood. I only bring it up now, because the "every PHB is an entry-point to the game" model has repercussions not only for the sequels, but also for the original, particularly with regards to minimising repeated content while keeping each volume playable by itself.
|
More to the point, the Pathfinder RPG isn't just for Golarion. Just as the 3.5 PH & DMG, it's a relatively world-neutral system of rules that can be used for ANY campaign. When you look at it that way, creating a supplementary book like Unearthed Arcana or the Player's Handbook 2 is an interesting idea... an idea that, frankly, will depend on the popularity of the PF RPG.
James, any chance of a "Pathfinder Manual" or something, detailing the society, members, prestige classes, new core class?, feats, spells, monsters, etc?
Something like the Complete X books only tied together by the Pathfinders theme? That would be so awesome, since other 3rd Ed. material never gave much attention to guilds as a focus.
But that was kind of the whole point of my post - that PHB 2 and other Race/Class splatbooks were a missed opportunity because they *didn't* reprint the core basics of the rules - no matter how cool the introduced Races/Classes were, they're really only marketable to existing players, and remain largely inaccessible to new players. When acquisition of new players is such a dark cloud hanging over this hobby, instead let's create a system where new players can be pulled into the game with *any* shiny new sequel to the PHB.
Let's start with Pathfinder RPG volume II - TianXia, for example!
Please, no.
Why should any but the Core and absolutely necessary book(s) reprint the rules in those books? Why should the PHB II have been a reprint of the PHB I only with different races and classes? Why should a book like that be marketed to people who aren't already playing the game?
That's what I'd call a complete waste of money myself. And gearing it almost totally toward potential new gamers is a bad idea, particularly when you have a high degree of certainty that existing players won't do what is essential to a company's existence: spend money on that product.
I bought the PHB II precisely because it had new content without anything already in the PHB I. If even on chapter had been reprinted from the PHB I, I would have seriously considered not buying it. And if there had been 2+ chapters from the PHB I, I wouldn't have bothered considering buying it.
|
|
But that was kind of the whole point of my post - that PHB 2 and other Race/Class splatbooks were a missed opportunity because they *didn't* reprint the core basics of the rules
You do realize that the Pathfinder RPG book is going to likely exceed 450 pages right? At $50 a pop, I don't want a book 2 that reprints 90% of what's in book 1. As for missed opportunity, oh well.
Anyone stupid enough to buy a "book 2" without book 1 deserves wasting their money.
Anyone stupid enough to buy a "book 2" without book 1 deserves wasting their money.
This is a good point, if harsh. Like, should the second book in a trilogy also contain everything in the first book which is relevant (in that case, pretty much the whole thing)?
As soon as someone argues about "customers being forced" I usually shut off imediately.
James, any chance of a "Pathfinder Manual" or something, detailing the society, members, prestige classes, new core class?, feats, spells, monsters, etc?
Something like the Complete X books only tied together by the Pathfinders theme? That would be so awesome, since other 3rd Ed. material never gave much attention to guilds as a focus.
Now this is a cool Idea!!!!
I know that the staff are working on a dozen items already, but I'll volunteer to work on a project like this!!!!!! I love the idea behind the Pathfinder Society as a world wide society, and think it compares very favorably to any organization developed on other worlds! I own virtually the entire library from Kalamar (produced by Kenzer), and one of the big appeals there were the independent organizations. It's nice to have a "thieve's guild" for members of all classes, and while many DM's prefer to create their own, I like the idea of allowing players to select a society to which their characters belong.
Any thoughts on other societies that might be appropriate to the campaign setting??? I have developed a Varisian defence society based on the worship (of all imaginable deities) the worship and support of Apsu!
Your conceptisn't completly bad, but I cold only see it working with a whole new setting apart from Pathfinder. Or a PHII with 7 new races and 11 new all tied together via a power sorce (ie psionics). I still wouldn't want to see a total reprint of related rules, even one chapter, but I could at lest understand such a thing. Moreover I think more people would dislike it then like it.
On the other hand a 3PP publisher might take your concept, less radical then Arcana Evloved, Iron Heros or even Conan, in other words fully compatable with Pathfinder but with new races/classes and power source system. That is something I can see happening, but Paizo in the end would doo better to focus on there flagship setting.
Of couse this is still very early in the game, technically we are still a year+ away. I don't expect a PH II until 2011 if not later. Sounds like a long time but its not.
|
|
James, any chance of a "Pathfinder Manual" or something, detailing the society, members, prestige classes, new core class?, feats, spells, monsters, etc?
Something like the Complete X books only tied together by the Pathfinders theme? That would be so awesome, since other 3rd Ed. material never gave much attention to guilds as a focus.
Now this is a cool Idea!!!!
I know that the staff are working on a dozen items already, but I'll volunteer to work on a project like this!!!!!! I love the idea behind the Pathfinder Society as a world wide society, and think it compares very favorably to any organization developed on other worlds! I own virtually the entire library from Kalamar (produced by Kenzer), and one of the big appeals there were the independent organizations. It's nice to have a "thieve's guild" for members of all classes, and while many DM's prefer to create their own, I like the idea of allowing players to select a society to which their characters belong.
Any thoughts on other societies that might be appropriate to the campaign setting??? I have developed a Varisian defence society based on the worship (of all imaginable deities) the worship and support of Apsu!
Hey Mark, not to gripe, but you can quote other posts by clicking the "Reply" button on the top left of each post.
Or, you can use the "quote=" tag, check the BBCode tags with the SHOW button beneath your message when you post, it will explain how (just put the posters name in quotes after the = sign (eg. quote="Mark")
Welcome to the boards!
EDIT: Nevermind, seeing another post of yours, you seem to have figured things out!
|
|
James, any chance of a "Pathfinder Manual" or something, detailing the society, members, prestige classes, new core class?, feats, spells, monsters, etc?Sounds like the Pathfinder Companion line is what you're looking for.
No, I think he means a book specifically about the Pathfinders and all of their crunch and fluff.
EDIT: It would make a good Pathfinder Companion, though.
It would be cool to see a PHB2 that has 7 completely different races and 11 wholly new classes.
It'd be a good format for introducing Psionic stuff too. Perhaps a PHB dedicated to playing on one of the other planets in the Golarion system?
It's not a bad idea but honestly something like that may be best done by a third party publisher (or you, yourself).
|
I think the OP is on to something, but I'm not sure a whole "PHB" with a complete rule reprint is quite the way to go. I do like the idea of a new set of races and classes, but I would like to see it tied to a setting. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved and Eberron gave me the idea. While AU/AO basically does what the OP is suggesting and more, I thought also that the new set of races and classes in Eberron would have been better as a substitute for the core classes, rather than as an addition.
Thus, I would like to see a setting book introduce a new set of races and classes, as well as the cultures and context for them. This book could suggest which core races and classes would also be appropriate for the setting, without a DM feeling the need to allow the whole PHB selection.
Wouldn't a PHB## that contained new classes/races/etc and basically a new laternate setting cause a divide in the customer base?
Group A, B, and C all play D&D.
Group A plays with the PH1
Group B plays with the PH2
group C plays with the PH3
An adventure comes out referencing races and classes in PH3. Group A and B do not have those races or classes, and their settings do not support either. A and B do not purchas the product because it is "useless" to them. You just lost 2 potential sales, and every time this comes up, if the groups are purists, you will only be able to seel to 1 of 3 customers.
Apparently White Wolf did this to themselves. They had people who played Werewolf, but then that was further divided into groups that played wolves, groups that played felines, dinosaurs, raven, etc.. TSR when they made so many setting-specific books. It's why WoTC's tries to have a lot of 'adapting setting-specific feat/race/class/power to another campaign.' It certainly kills some of the setting specific flavor, but it allows them to reach a wider audience.
|
|
You know, technically, anyone could reprint the Pathfinder RPG with all new races and classes (or even the exact same races and classes, if you wanted to be a total dick about it). You just can't reference anything Golarian specific, unless you scrape the serial numbers off, as it were.
If there is demand for any Pathfinder related product, like a player's section only version (for those who don't wish to lug around a 500+ page book), or a pocket-sized version, or hell even a "fighter playing manual" that reprints only everything one needs to play a fighter (character creation rules, combat rules, no spells, no metamagic feats, no classes other than fighters, etc.), and paizo decides not to act (or is to slow to act) on that demand then someone else can do it.
That's the beauty of OGL.
Group A, B, and C all play D&D.
Group A plays with the PH1
Group B plays with the PH2
group C plays with the PH3
Even worse... what happens when a player who only owns the PH1 tries to join a group that only has the PH2?
-Matt
That doesn't impact the size of "sequels" though, since a PF RPG II or whatever that would be called wouldn't have to reprint the core basics of the rules like ability score creation, combat rules, equipment, and the like... just like the PHB 2 didn't reprint.
Question/suggestion: Sequel PFRPG books, could be they do things like Unearthed Arcana equivilents where there are different takes on the rules? Also could they include things like mass combat rules, naval battle rules, etc.
Doing that would require things like the equipment list for list for ships, siege weapons, etc, "ability score creation" for those kinds of stuff, etc. So size would be impacted. But frankly, D&D never had good mass combat rules and it really should. As a fantasy game, the eras that it tries to simulate is where large scale assaults occurred. Working your way up to general as part of a 10,000 man army is not something that the existing RAW do well.
|
|
You do realize that the Pathfinder RPG book is going to likely exceed 450 pages right? At $50 a pop, I don't want a book 2 that reprints 90% of what's in book 1. As for missed opportunity, oh well.
Anyone stupid enough to buy a "book 2" without book 1 deserves wasting their money.
I agree with the sentiments, Urza.
Not to be a stickler though - but Jason has admitted that the RPG book will be pushing 600 pages!! not just 450. :-/ Which just further hammers your point.
Robert