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GEEK FIGHT! GEEK FIGHT!You know, I was going to read your post until I saw "RAW wrote:" and
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
and quickly ignored the post.
** spoiler omitted **
Leaves of Grass hit the ground in 3.82 seconds.
Where's my dollar?!
Careful, you might get hit by eloquent verbiage, or an errant pocket-protector!
Not in MY homebrew does Shmuckminster get to boink The Simbul! ;)
(Nothin' butt luv for you)
-W. E. Ray
Eh, in that case he boinks every other available lady... what an improvement. <g>
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I love the school powers. Necromancers rejoice! Bring up the zombie-squids!
Now, as for which spellcaster, I've always been partial to the wizard. The wizard has to work hard. The wizard has to study. A lot. A wizard has to handle bat dung. A wizard has to buy very, very expensive things. But then, after all those years of practice in Master Alaminster's dungeon, after all that burnt facial hair, after all of that squeezing bats in a wild search for guano, the wizard gets to blow stuff up. At will. And that rocks.
Also, wizards can write a ridiculous quantity of scrolls. Use at will.
while everyone seems to be on the subject of arcane casters what is your opinion on school powers and the mystic theurge class?
Been over this one many times; most agree that school powers are class features. Mystic Theurge gets spells per day and caster level, but NOT other class features. Then again, we have to wait and see what the Beta says.
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Been over this one many times; most agree that school powers are class features. Mystic Theurge gets spells per day and caster level, but NOT other class features. Then again, we have to wait and see what the Beta says.while everyone seems to be on the subject of arcane casters what is your opinion on school powers and the mystic theurge class?
Well, if we are on the subject of schools I have always been partial to Illusionists - something about the versatility of the spell list combined with the ability to kill someone with their imagination...even more fun in 2nd Edition! I am also partial to conjurers, and enjoy making other "themed" wizards like pyromancers, force-mages, etc.
I'd personally like to see a Sorceror specific feat selection that gave them a few extra known spells per day. For example, if there were a feat that gave me dispel magic and greater dispel magic, or the entire line of plant shapes, I'd be sold. Because seriously, who would take plant shape I - III and not regret taking I - II?
The school powers rock my socks. I really enjoy what was done with specialist wizards to an extent most probably can't even fathom. Mystic Theurge would be good if it advanced domain and school powers. In my opinion, losing 3 levels of casting on both sides is more than enough, and Sorcerors should be able to qualify by 3rd level, just like Wizards. In fact, I would like to see all casting classes require a specific caster level, not spell level. Classes that are based around certain spells can require that spell.
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Well, if we are on the subject of schools I have always been partial to Illusionists - something about the versatility of the spell list combined with the ability to kill someone with their imagination...even more fun in 2nd Edition! I am also partial to conjurers, and enjoy making other "themed" wizards like pyromancers, force-mages, etc.Been over this one many times; most agree that school powers are class features. Mystic Theurge gets spells per day and caster level, but NOT other class features. Then again, we have to wait and see what the Beta says.while everyone seems to be on the subject of arcane casters what is your opinion on school powers and the mystic theurge class?
I like themed mages as well, but 3.x makes it so difficult. You have to use a feat to be able to switch effects.
However, in my games we just make new spells. Fireball becomes Boulder or Water Jet. Magic Missile becomes Fire Bolt. Scrying requires either a pool or water, a fire or a crystal or whatever. The mechanics reamin the same we just change the fluff.
I would really like to see a way to easily make elemental mages and a wider array of pre-written spells for them.
On an ealier topic, I am a huge fan of scrolls. Scrolls are great for the utility spells that you cast infrequently. A couple of scrolls for each spell are kept on hand, and when one is used another is written later. Wands, for me, are for spells that are fairly common but do not use caster dependent features.
However, for my Cleric of Fire I do have Cure wands since I just cast them so many times, I could never have enough slots to do all the curing and buffing and anything else. Course all of my spells use fire effects so a Cure spell burns off the damaged flesh so new flesh can regrow quickly. And my Cure potions use hot peppers as a base for creation. Hotter peppers for higher level spells. :)
Though I admit I had forgotten about splitting up memorizing your spells. Too many darn rules.
Wizards are better than Sorcerers.
Alot!
It's not even close.
Higher spell levels earlier; extra Feats; only need one high Ability Score (as opposed to high INT & CHA)
Play a Wizard.
Buy a wand.You wanna do "the combat thing" like a shmuck, er, Sorcerer, at 1st level, prepare all magic missiles. At 3rd level or your soonest opportunity buy a wand of magic missiles. Now you can do all the (one) things Sorcerers do and you also have real spells -- and an extra Feat every 5 levels.
-W. E. Ray
Save that, if your point is to blast stuff, under the alpha, the sorcerer can still do it better, because those additional spells they get compaired to a wizard have a higher average damage than the wizard.
They do different things, one is not intrinsicially better than the other, they just do different things.
They do different things, one is not intrinsicially better than the other, they just do different things.
What's the phrase? Quote For Truth?
Wizards and Sorcerers are probably the most similar classes/roles in core of 3rd edition, but they are still distinct classes and distinct roles.
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They do different things, one is not intrinsicially better than the other, they just do different things.What's the phrase? Quote For Truth?
Wizards and Sorcerers are probably the most similar classes/roles in core of 3rd edition, but they are still distinct classes and distinct roles.
I would like the sorcerer better if it had its own spell list.
Even with all th efluff Paizo added, without their own spell list I just cannot get into the sorcerer.
It's like having a Fighter and an Archer using the exact same class just focusing on different means of doing the same thing.
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I like themed mages as well, but 3.x makes it so difficult. You have to use a feat to be able to switch effects.
However, in my games we just make new spells. Fireball becomes Boulder or Water Jet. Magic Missile becomes Fire Bolt. Scrying requires either a pool or water, a fire or a crystal or whatever. The mechanics reamin the same we just change the fluff.
I would really like to see a way to easily make elemental mages and a wider array of pre-written spells for them.
Hopefully, SKR will finish his "How to Build Spells" book and put it up on Paizo for us nuts - I love making spells too, I really think players miss that option all too often. Nothing prevents you from making a low-level Stoneskin effect, maybe just as expensive with shorter duration and lower DR, etc, etc, etc.
They do different things, one is not intrinsicially better than the other, they just do different things.What's the phrase? Quote For Truth?
Wizards and Sorcerers are probably the most similar classes/roles in core of 3rd edition, but they are still distinct classes and distinct roles.
Well, that comment was based upon opinion and experience. I am able to make markedly different characters with sorcerer, which perform a function that i would not be able to reproduce with wizard.
For example, a sharn based cat burgler (rogue/sorcerer) who needed the momment to momment flexiblity of the sorcerer to work properly.
Where sigil based Private Eye, worked almost exclusively of wizard, because the day to day challanges the character faced, neededa very different kind of flexablity. One where popping of to a prime, to kick arse in dungeon delve one day, and then tracking a cheating spouce in dis the next ment, you had to change more over the course of a campaign.
I would like the sorcerer better if it had its own spell list.
Even with all th efluff Paizo added, without their own spell list I just cannot get into the sorcerer.
I used to be opposed to this but I've come around to the POV that having a separate spell list would be an improvement. Certain spells would be higher or lower level, some spells would be wizard only... and perhaps the sorcerer would pick up a spell or 2 from the cleric or druid list.
I like the sorcerer as is but a separate list would be nicer.
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Certain spells would be higher or lower level, some spells would be wizard only... and perhaps the sorcerer would pick up a spell or 2 from the cleric or druid list.
I like the sorcerer as is but a separate list would be nicer.
I'm the opposite. I want Sorcerers to have the same bonus feats, skills, class abilities, HD, spell list, weapons/armor and saves as Wizards.
The *only* difference between the two classes, IMO, should be the choice between Prepared and Spontaneous casting, made at 1st level, with the Spontaneous caster having less spells known and more castings per day, and the Wizard having effectively unlimited spells known, and less castings per day.
And then, the Bard, Cleric and Druid (Ranger, Paladin, Assassin, Blackguard, etc.) would have the same options at 1st level, to be a Prepared caster with less castings per day (but large spell lists) or a Spontaneous caster with more spell slots per day, but a very small list of spells known.
'Cause I'd love to play an aristocratic Bard who actually learns dribs and drabs of magic from his dabbling, and isn't some dragon-blooded not-quite-Sorcerer, or a spontaneous casting Druid who has a limited selection of tricks, but can throw them out willy-nilly like a Sorcerer.
The difference between Prepared casting and Spontaneous casting, IMO, doesn't warrant entirely different classes, and making them even more different, again, IMO, is just making it that much harder to justify having a Spontaneous Druid or Prepared Bard.
The *only* difference between the two classes, IMO, should be the choice between Prepared and Spontaneous casting, made at 1st level, with the Spontaneous caster having less spells known and more castings per day, and the Wizard having effectively unlimited spells known, and less castings per day.
Hmmm.... the way I look at it the two classes have totally different ways of accessing their power. The different spell lists would be a reflection of that. Spells that require preparation and time would be the ones where the wizard shines. Stuff that benefits from raw manipulation of power would be the sorcerer's forte.
I really don't care for the idea of making the non-spell aspects of the classes identical.
As for the divine classes... I would prefer to see them all spontaneous but with a more limited spell list... but I don't see that happening and nor am I overly concerned about it.
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I would like the sorcerer better if it had its own spell list.
Even with all th efluff Paizo added, without their own spell list I just cannot get into the sorcerer.
I used to be opposed to this but I've come around to the POV that having a separate spell list would be an improvement. Certain spells would be higher or lower level, some spells would be wizard only... and perhaps the sorcerer would pick up a spell or 2 from the cleric or druid list.
I like the sorcerer as is but a separate list would be nicer.
A good start might be to give sorcerers the wizard spell progression, but as a trade off they have to choose 1 or 2 schools of magic from which they can cast and that's it.
As far as I can tell...I played alot of wizard in 2nd/3.0/3.5 (realms campaign), but let's focus only on 3.5 and say level 10 casters!
1.
The standard wizard is quite flexible but has not much spells per day output as the sorcerer! So the point goes to sorcerer even if he has not a spellbook ;)... That's the truth!
wizard spells per day: (without bonus spells)
cantrips/4 1st/4 2nd/4 3rd/3 4th/3 5th/2 = 20 spells
sorcerer spells per day:(without bonus spells)
cantrips/6 1st/6 2nd/6 3rd/6 4th/5 5th/3 = 32 spells
2.
As soon as the wizard specializes in a school of magic he has not all spells available because of 2 schools prohibited to him. But who cares he has a bonus spell per day at every spell level. Some special feats designed for specialists get him now even more dangerous and potent.
Now you can even with 6 spells less than the sorcerer can cast per day put him on the same scale because he is still more versatile than the sorcerer about spell choices.
wizard spells per day: (without bonus spells)
cantrips/5 1st/5 2nd/5 3rd/4 4th/4 5th/3 = 26 spells
sorcerer spells per day:(without bonus spells)
cantrips/6 1st/6 2nd/6 3rd/6 4th/5 5th/3 = 32 spells
3.
If you have the nice complete mage, sorcerers are in comparison to a focused specialist just only breakfast. combined with the master specialist prestige class you will become a crazy cake!
wizard spells per day: (without bonus spells)
cantrips/6 1st/6 2nd/6 3rd/5 4th/5 5th/4 = 32 spells
sorcerer spells per day:(without bonus spells)
cantrips/6 1st/6 2nd/6 3rd/6 4th/5 5th/3 = 32 spells
4.
Something for both Wizard Specialist (Illusionist) and a Sorcerer (Shadowthemed) is to take the PRC Nightmare Spinner it gives additional bonus spells per day at each spell level as one of it's features.
wizard spells per day: (without bonus spells)
cantrips/7 1st/7 2nd/7 3rd/6 4th/6 5th/5 = 38 spells
sorcerer spells per day:(without bonus spells)
cantrips/7 1st/7 2nd/7 3rd/7 4th/6 5th/4 = 38 spells
5.
In Races of Stone is described the Shadowcraft Mage...a powerful PRC combined with the master specialist just one thing "AWESOME"! Just give it a try and look how this would raise the power of a focused specialist as well as the sorcerer in some kind if (Shadowthemed).
6.
The most powerful master specialists are for my opinion (necromancers,conjurers and illusionists).
Further speaking the focused specialist gives up a 3rd school of magic > so you have 5 schools to devote oneself for(included the divination school)! If you don't already know...with feats you can learn spells you would like to use but are in your prohibited schools spell list (1 feat), use trigger items with charges of spells from your prohibited school (2 feat) and even if you pay a third feat you can entirely regain the ability to learn any spell from one of your three prohibited schools.
That means ... if you are not the uber-crafter buddy ... you can pwn da house with legendary...
BEAT THIS!!!
...32 or 38 spells per day instead of 20 and have access to (if the feats are right chosen)6 schools of magic!
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Bye Bye Sorcerer...your charming innate force is nothing against my willpower and unlimited study of arcane lore! You can't match me anymore *WHOOOZAAA*
;)
greets
ultimate_illusionist
First, forget anything that involves splat books Paizo cannot do anything to fix them, they are water under the bridge and if you or your DM chooses to use them then you are on your own. We're just talking about the Pathfinder RPG rules here which is the only thing Paizo can fix.
Next, Wizards no longer get bonus spells per day, they get a bonus spell at certain levels (Under Alpha 3 they had SLAs but Jason slipped in the blog that those are gone). Once they pick the spell it is fixed in stone so while the specialist wizard comes close to the sorcerer in spells he has no flexibility on that bonus spell once it's chosen. Further, when he goes into a PrC he will no longer gain the bonus spell but is still limited to what schools of magic he can take (well actually this is just conjecture) which means that all of your math is wrong.
The wizard is probably still meaner than the sorcerer but your post is all based on the 3.5 and non-core stuff so it's misleading. The gap is no where near what it was previously. The extra spells known, sorcerer SLAs, and nerfing of specialization have really leveled the playing field.
So my players are figuring out what characters they're going to play for the upcoming campaign and the spellcasting guy was having trouble deciding between Sorceror and Wizard. The main conflict being over spell choices.
For Sorceror you usually take combat spells and/or a repeatedly useful utility spell ala Fly.
For Wizard, it's really all about the daily spell selection, which at early levels really sucks. Wizards don't really come into full blown power until 5th level at which utility and combat spells shine.
So... I like what 4E has done in the sense that a lot of tangentially useful spells have shifted off into rituals. I disagree that any class can access these and I disagree that they need to be shifted off into a separate spell system. But I like the idea that some utility spells which you may need (occasionally) are there but you don't need to worry about taking day to day, especially when you're out an adventure.
Any solutions out there besides taking the utility spells as scrolls?
In the case of a wizard, perhaps allowing a caster to cast the spell directly from his spell book at any time? To balance things the casting time could be extended. This would raise the significance of spell books in general. Take the Knock spell for instance. A wizard who knows this spell could prepare it for the day and cast it with it's normal casting time, or he could pull out his spell book at a time when it is needed and take 10 minutes for instance casting the spell.
First, forget anything that involves splat books Paizo cannot do anything to fix them, they are water under the bridge and if you or your DM chooses to use them then you are on your own. We're just talking about the Pathfinder RPG rules here which is the only thing Paizo can fix.
Next, Wizards no longer get bonus spells per day, they get a bonus spell at certain levels (Under Alpha 3 they had SLAs but Jason slipped in the blog that those are gone). Once they pick the spell it is fixed in stone so while the specialist wizard comes close to the sorcerer in spells he has no flexibility on that bonus spell once it's chosen. Further, when he goes into a PrC he will no longer gain the bonus spell but is still limited to what schools of magic he can take (well actually this is just conjecture) which means that all of your math is wrong.
The wizard is probably still meaner than the sorcerer but your post is all based on the 3.5 and non-core stuff so it's misleading. The gap is no where near what it was previously. The extra spells known, sorcerer SLAs, and nerfing of specialization have really leveled the playing field.
In any case dude they are open to use *the splat books* you are talking about! And about the calculation...I would not think that you dont get the bonus spells! Except if you multiclass to a complete different core class of course or any other prestige class that does not continue the progression of a specialist...in the case of a master specialist logically...I would not say *NO* to bonus spells because it is just a further specialization of that school you have chosen.
But you are right about Pathfinder...anyway...specialist rocks in 3.5...we will see how it will be finally in august 2009!
Basically spoken...both wizard and sorcerer are good in alpha 3...but they already changed again the special things they get!
I am interested in how they will again rebuild this thing! Just only having every spell level except of the 4th a bonus spell (if I am not wrong) is just fine...but the alpha 3 realy made them "DIFFERENT" and in some case funny to try how they do their job!
greets
ultimate_illusionist
In the case of a wizard, perhaps allowing a caster to cast the spell directly from his spell book at any time? To balance things the casting time could be extended. This would raise the significance of spell books in general. Take the Knock spell for instance. A wizard who knows this spell could prepare it for the day and cast it with it's normal casting time, or he could pull out his spell book at a time when it is needed and take 10 minutes for instance casting the spell.
That sounds good...to increase the casting time for utility spells such as knock, comprehend languages, diguise self etc. but you would further more have no need to rest for full 8hours to regain the ability to learn new spells (15min. up to 1hour)! So you could move much faster in an adventure/campaign forward as you normaly would!
Good opinion...but I think maybe to powerful, since in 3.5 the wizard (specialist) became quite powerful too! Don't know how they will do it in the final 2009 book...but 1 year could bring a lot of different changes of rules!
greets
ultimate_illusionist
In any case dude they are open to use *the splat books* you are talking about!
Forgive me, I'm not trying to suggest that they can't use them, only that for the purposes of discussing Pathfinder RPG they are outside the scope. Paizo cannot change non-OGL supplemental material, since the core rules have changed so much the supplemental rules will be significantly impacted.
And about the calculation...I would not think that you dont get the bonus spells! Except if you multiclass to a complete different core class of course or any other prestige class that does not continue the progression of a specialist...in the case of a master specialist logically...I would not say *NO* to bonus spells because it is just a further specialization of that school you have chosen.
I'm not entirely sure about the bonus spells. Alpha 3 has SLAs, in the blog Jason said this:
Wizard arcane schools got revised for the Beta. The big change here is that wizards now choose the spells that they gain upon reaching 2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th levels. These spells must be from their school and are set once selected. It should be noted again that these spells now act as bonus spells, not spell-like abilities. This change does not affect the supernatural abilities granted by arcane schools.It's pretty wide open how they will be implemented and pretty pointless to go back and forth on it since it's going to be released later this week so we can check it out then. They are not granted the same way they were previously and from what I can tell they are class features and not 'normal spell advancement'. Since PrCs only increase caster level for the purpose of normal spell advancement (or however they phrase it) the bonus spells would not roll forward. This is all conjecture on my part but I think it's pretty solid.
As you say, we will see in 09... but many questions will be answered later this week.