Two words: Kung Fu
Actually, I do think of Monks as diplomatic. Their few, carefully choosen, wise words influence others. Or maybe that is just the Grand Masters.
The answer is obvious, so you can do wierd things like ride dragons, griffons, sharks, grells, and other monks!
I never really understood why monks had diplomacy anyway - when I think monk, I don't immediately think "people skills".
But I could see a soft-spoken monk going about his day, using his words of wisdom to win's respect. Not all monks are loners wandering the badlands with a flute going from adventure to adventure.
EDIT: Oh, beat the punch by Duncan and Dragons.
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The answer is obvious, so you can do wierd things like ride ... other monks!
I wonder if you could just keep chaining that...
I can't decide whether stacks of monks sitting on each others' shoulders coming at you is more laughable or frightening.
Especially frightening. I just got a new monster idea: monk swarm!
I don't disagree with the concept of the wise old monk, but in most cultures monks were not exactly "diplomats" with training in how to deal with people. A few cross-class ranks and a Wisdom bonus can give you this idea.
I don't equate being well-spoken with knowing the rules for proper speech, mannerisms, courtly behaviour, and etiquette.
I'm not saying "Boo, Diplomacy must go!", but I am not up in arms about the change to Ride.
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I don't really think of monks as being diplomatic and well versed in the arts of etiquette and the like. Rather, I think of monk's as being very wise, and thus, prone to not sticking their foot in their mouths.
Monks speak calmly and truthfully, with their eyes wide open and free from illusion. And then they train themselves very well for dealing with the inevitable people who will be hostile to the truth.
A frightened and scared peasant who needs to be convinced to help a band of adventurers sneak into the evil king's city by letting them hide under his hay is essentially friendly, and needs only a little push to get him to do the right thing. The wise word's of a monk may be all he needs.
But convincing an unfriendly king that it's in best interests to ally with a king he has long considered a rival? That requires a trained diplomat, as adept with blunt truths as with sugared words. Someone who doesn't just speak the plain and honest truth in a humble way, but who knows the delicate intricies of conversation, and who is willing to trap others in a snare of words, and wear them out with games of manners.
I can definitely see why Diplomacy would be a cross-class skill for monks.
I think part of this Monk Diplomacy debate is the influnce of Asia. Although it is probably flawed logic, I think of Monks with this sort of Asian mystique. I equate Asia to Confusianism. Scholars in Chinese history studied Confusianism. It was even a pre-requisite for bureacratic duty in China. And the bureaucrats and scholars advised the king (emperor).
Again, this has some flawed logic but it is how my brain works. If you think of monks differently, especially without Asian flair, my logic gets even worse.
Confucianism is not Diplomacy. The best D&D analogy is Knowledge (religion), or perhaps Knowledge (Philosophy) if you care to add that to the skill list. The former is a class skill for monks, the latter should be if you do add it.
As Gailbraithe explained, Diplomacy is the fine art of persuasion. Unless they're proselytizing that's not really in the line of a monk's work, and the oriental monk the class is based on doesn't go in for that kind of thing (they're more of the 'you may find wisdom or it may find you, but I'm not pushing it down your throat' variety).
The monk may well outrun the horse for short distances, but long after the Monk keels over from a heart attack, the horse will still be plodding along.
Tortoise and the hare, eh? Speed doesn't necessarily win the day.
And even if you do circumvent that, there's always the fact that horses can carry far, far more than monks can. Even a monk with decent strength lags far behind the carrying capacity of the average horse.
Throw in the fact that you can ride a horse and not be tired at the end of the run- compared to running 8 hours yourself, and the benefits start to weigh in. That's even before getting to the fact that you have to make it to level 10 to outrun the horse. Are you going to lag behind the party until level 10?
And, also keep in mind that the class/cross clas distinction means far, far less than it used to. Now it just means you don't get a fancy +3 tacked to the end.
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The monk may well outrun the horse for short distances, but long after the Monk keels over from a heart attack, the horse will still be plodding along.
Tortoise and the hare, eh? Speed doesn't necessarily win the day.
And even if you do circumvent that, there's always the fact that horses can carry far, far more than monks can. Even a monk with decent strength lags far behind the carrying capacity of the average horse.
Throw in the fact that you can ride a horse and not be tired at the end of the run- compared to running 8 hours yourself, and the benefits start to weigh in. That's even before getting to the fact that you have to make it to level 10 to outrun the horse. Are you going to lag behind the party until level 10?
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The speed for most horses is 50 feet (40 miles per day), and with the exception of heavy warhorses, most would probably be encumbered by an average PC with armor and gear. If not properly prepared, it is possible the party fighter on a heavy horse is moving at 35 feet compared to the Monk below.
At 6th level an average Monk is literally as fast a horse (all day long, endurance is only a factor after 8 hours). And the Monk likely has a better Fort save than a horse, which means they can run/walk longer without getting tired too. At 9th level, they are faster.
Agreed, generally a horse can carry more than a monk, and do other things like pull (and a monk on horseback is probably not going to encumber the horse) so using a mount is still a viable option for a monk.
I should mention, pursuant to above, that I have a Scout character who began play with a 50 foot base speed. If he multiclassed as a monk (which he may do) for 9 levels, he would move 90 feet per round.
Confucianism is not Diplomacy.
Read the analects. There is a great deal of etiquette there.
Confucianism is not Diplomacy.
Read the analects. There is a great deal of etiquette there.
In ancient China, Confusian WAS Diplomacy. How you are defining diplomacy is Western. It is not necessarily wrong, but it is making a Monk more of a non-cultural, martial artist. I just like the idea of an Oriental Monk being good at influencing people. And that was the roots of the class.
Confucianism is not Diplomacy.Read the analects. There is a great deal of etiquette there.In ancient China, Confusian WAS Diplomacy. How you are defining diplomacy is Western. It is not necessarily wrong, but it is making a Monk more of a non-cultural, martial artist. I just like the idea of an Oriental Monk being good at influencing people. And that was the roots of the class.
Even Taosim, which is arguably more apt to be practiced by a monk than Confutianism, (and may be regarded as it's opposite in many regards) still has a great deal to do with diplomacy. Often quite literally.
Even Taosim, which is arguably more apt to be practiced by a monk than Confutianism, (and may be regarded as it's opposite in many regards) still has a great deal to do with diplomacy. Often quite literally.
Glad you mentioned this. I was dancing around which religion Monks were based on. I could not remember Taoism, Shintoism, or Confucianism. I also did not want to go into Oriental legends that frequently had the wise Monk advising the 'king'. I just could not support it if pushed for a reference.
The answer is obvious, so you can do wierd things like ride ... other monks!
I wonder if you could just keep chaining that...
I can't decide whether stacks of monks sitting on each others' shoulders coming at you is more laughable or frightening.
Play Disgaea 2 for the PS2. Tactical fantasy RPG. But you can lift allies to throw them to other areas. And you can make "chain" attacks if you have a lifted ally threatening an enemy.
The kicker: you can lift an infinitely high stack of allies, as long as you have the actions to do so, and the guy at the top has an attack action left. Usualy "chain" of events is the enemy getting kicked, stabbed, mauled, or otherwise maimed up the stack until the guy at the top delivers a retardely awesome finishing move.
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The answer is obvious, so you can do wierd things like ride ... other monks!
I wonder if you could just keep chaining that...
I can't decide whether stacks of monks sitting on each others' shoulders coming at you is more laughable or frightening.
Play Disgaea 2 for the PS2. Tactical fantasy RPG. But you can lift allies to throw them to other areas. And you can make "chain" attacks if you have a lifted ally threatening an enemy.
The kicker: you can lift an infinitely high stack of allies, as long as you have the actions to do so, and the guy at the top has an attack action left. Usualy "chain" of events is the enemy getting kicked, stabbed, mauled, or otherwise maimed up the stack until the guy at the top delivers a retardely awesome finishing move.
Sounds fun, I like weird concept games (like Katamari Damacy). Is it a recent release, or will I have to go scrounging in used bins?
Glad you mentioned this. I was dancing around which religion Monks were based on. I could not remember Taoism, Shintoism, or Confucianism.
Taoism and Confuceanism are not well categorized as religions, I think they are better known as philosophy or mysticism (or both). The famous writings of both Confucius and the renowned Taoist philosophers contain whole chapters on thought, emotion, and interpersonal conflict, as well as parts that serve as outright political theory. The case can certainly be made that a true student of these teachings would have access to diplomacy as a skill.
I know next to nothing about Shintoism, so I won't weigh in on that. I would offer Zazen as the single best mystical tradition for the Pathfinder monk, as many fine battle traditions have evolved from that philosophical branch of Buddhism.
EDIT: In fact, I would love to see a zen-inspired tradition native to Golarion, replete with pauper mystics and sages pressed unwilling into political office. I'd make a monk in a heartbeat!
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Sounds fun, I like weird concept games (like Katamari Damacy). Is it a recent release, or will I have to go scrounging in used bins?
The second game shouldn't be hard to find at game stores, certainly easy online. The first one is quite a bit more rare, but it always seems to be easier to track down than people say.
It's a strategy-RPG series with a sense of humor about itself. Mostly traditional gameplay with some very odd quirks(like the stacking). Possibly the cutest game set in hell that you'll ever play.
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EDIT: In fact, I would love to see a zen-inspired tradition native to Golarion, replete with pauper mystics and sages pressed unwilling into political office. I'd make a monk in a heartbeat!
Could be a great excuse for a lot of monks to get out of Xian Ti and into the wide world. Jandelay on the other hands seems to attract them.
In ancient China, Confusian WAS Diplomacy. How you are defining diplomacy is Western.
No, how I'm defining Diplomacy is how the game defines it: as a skill that teaches you how to persuade others - any others, even those from an entirely different culture than yours. Etiquette and the like are part of this, but Confucianism doesn't teach etiquette in general either: it teaches what it sees as proper etiquette. Essentially though, it's a knowledge base. It's a body of wisdom. Being privy to this wisdom might give you a bonus of sorts in diplomatic situations (either circumstantial or perhaps as a synergy bonus to Diplomacy, but then I'd personally require it to be its own knowledge skill, not (religion) or (philosophy)), but it is not focused and specialized training for this specific goal. As such it can't be the skill Diplomacy, it's something else.