Just looking for some reasonable stats for a Kobold on the back of what 4e has done with them.
Basically they are a +2DEX +2CON race instead of the original -4STR +2DEX -2CON
Looking for a Pathfinder Kobold would something like +2DEX +2CON -2CHA be acceptable ?
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Well Kobolds are still a small race. So a -2 to strength makes sense. A -4 was always ridiculously extreme, especially when you tacked on a -2 con penalty as well.
The pathetic +2 dex is in no way a proper balance for a -6 total penalty to stats and a point of natural armor. Seeing as they're small creatures just like halflings (who get a +1 to all saving throws mind you!) we thought that it was much more balanced to give them a -2 strength and a +2 dexterity and keep them like that. I believe we even gave them a few color options to be more orientated towards a task or something.
Apparently when 3.5 was being made they thought a 30 foot movement on a small creature was worth more then it is, as even in some of their later books they had PC races that were small and moved 30. Look at the Whisper Gnome and how awesome there were.
Well considering kobolds are CR=1/4 they should be a little weaker that CR 1/3 creatures. The goblin has -2 str, +2 dex, and -2 cha. Kobolds are light sensitive but have +1 NA... I think they are about right for a CR 1/4 critter.
I'm not sure what 4th edition has to do with anything. ? One of the goals here is to keep backwards compatible, making changes to reflect changes in 4th ed. makes no sense.
That said, if I were going to change anything positive it would be to give them a +2 CHA bonus.
I agree. On the other hand kobolds are known for being good sorcerers and the higher charisma reflects that.
Personally, kobolds are supposed to suck, that is their role in the game, they are the creature that sucks. Kobolds are supposed to be the creature that even first level characters can beat on with impunity. They fit this role quite well.
Given that kobolds are natural sorcerers, -2 Str +2 Dex +2 Cha would make sense. This also keeps the trend of adding a +2 mental stat that PRPG added to all the PC races.
Given that kobolds are natural sorcerers, -2 Str +2 Dex +2 Cha would make sense. This also keeps the trend of adding a +2 mental stat that PRPG added to all the PC races.
Except Kobolds are not a PC race, they are a monster/ NPC race and thus their stats reflect the threat level of the creature and do not need to conform to PC race stat modifiers. This is sort of like making an Ogre +2 STR, +2 Wis and -2 CHA to make him conform to the PC race stat modifiers.
Except Kobolds are not a PC race, they are a monster/ NPC race and thus their stats reflect the threat level of the creature and do not need to conform to PC race stat modifiers. This is sort of like making an Ogre +2 STR, +2 Wis and -2 CHA to make him conform to the PC race stat modifiers.
Except that ogres have racial HD and a level adjustment. Kobold have neither of these and thus are much easier to justify as a PC race.
Except that ogres have racial HD and a level adjustment. Kobold have neither of these and thus are much easier to justify as a PC race.
Well no, not really ogre's have the racial HD and stats they have they can fit a role in the game. Similarly kobolds are have the stats appropriate for a CR 1/4 creature. Humans, Elves, Dwarves have a CR 1/2, if you make kobolds a PC race then they will also be a CR 1/2 creature and no longer fit the niche they are designed to fit.
Considering about 2 out of every 3 1st level adventures feature kobolds and many other 1st-5th level adventures do as well I would like to keep that material usable. There are already creatures suitable to fill the CR 1/3, CR 1/2, CR 1 niches. There are very few humanoids that fit the CR 1/4 niche, lets not eliminate this one which is a favored first level enemy for PCs.
Well no, not really ogre's have the racial HD and stats they have they can fit a role in the game. Similarly kobolds are have the stats appropriate for a CR 1/4 creature. ... There are very few humanoids that fit the CR 1/4 niche, lets not eliminate this one which is a favored first level enemy for PCs.
Agreed. I was approaching this from an "if you wanted kobolds as a PC race" angle, which I had somehow read into the OP's query. In that regard, a +2 to Cha makes sense. If you wanted to retain the CR 1/4, you could drop the Str penalty to -4, as it is in 3.5. That gives you weak creatures with a touch of magical ability, much like kobolds are now.
Agreed. I was approaching this from an "if you wanted kobolds as a PC race" angle, which I had somehow read into the OP's query. In that regard, a +2 to Cha makes sense. If you wanted to retain the CR 1/4, you could drop the Str penalty to -4, as it is in 3.5. That gives you weak creatures with a touch of magical ability, much like kobolds are now.
Well that's the catch, kobolds are kobolds, if you change them to be suitable for a PC race then they are no longer suitable for a CR 1/4 monster. If someone wants to invent a 'Greater Kobold' race for use as a PC race then it's all good, just leave the MM kobolds as the CR 1/4 critter that 1st level PCs love to kick around.
Good discussion but I think I'll throw one thing you seem to have overlooked.
PC's are meant to be exceptional for their race , so there is no reason that PC Kobolds have higher than average anything simply becuase its only those few mutants that are actually strong enough to stand toe to toe, or toe to kneecap in thier case with other PC races.
In that respect you can have them as a +2 +2 -2.
For example look at Elves
+2DEX +2INT -2CON
And there 1st monster warrior stats
Str 13, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8 for a std warrior elf as a monster
The two don't exactly marry up
Compare that to the Kobold monster 1st stats
Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
apart from 4 less strength they are exactly the same !!!!
Agreed. I was approaching this from an "if you wanted kobolds as a PC race" angle, which I had somehow read into the OP's query. In that regard, a +2 to Cha makes sense. If you wanted to retain the CR 1/4, you could drop the Str penalty to -4, as it is in 3.5. That gives you weak creatures with a touch of magical ability, much like kobolds are now.Well that's the catch, kobolds are kobolds, if you change them to be suitable for a PC race then they are no longer suitable for a CR 1/4 monster. If someone wants to invent a 'Greater Kobold' race for use as a PC race then it's all good, just leave the MM kobolds as the CR 1/4 critter that 1st level PCs love to kick around.
Unless I am missing something, this is a discuss to alter Kobold slightly for use as a PC race only. meaning when you use them as an NPC, they keep their MM stats, but since that makes them suck as a PC, we're coming up with PC only stats for them.
PC's are meant to be exceptional for their race , so there is no reason that PC Kobolds have higher than average anything simply becuase its only those few mutants that are actually strong enough to stand toe to toe, or toe to kneecap in thier case with other PC races.
and
Unless I am missing something, this is a discuss to alter Kobold slightly for use as a PC race only. meaning when you use them as an NPC, they keep their MM stats, but since that makes them suck as a PC, we're coming up with PC only stats for them.
If the kobold were to have a different set of stats for the PC kobolds versus the NPC/ Monster kobolds they would be the only race in the entire system with this exception. Yes, PCs are exceptional creatures within their race, thus they have a preferred method of generating stats versus NPCs. In all other ways PCs are normal members of their race.
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Except that ogres have racial HD and a level adjustment. Kobold have neither of these and thus are much easier to justify as a PC race.Well no, not really ogre's have the racial HD and stats they have they can fit a role in the game. Similarly kobolds are have the stats appropriate for a CR 1/4 creature. Humans, Elves, Dwarves have a CR 1/2, if you make kobolds a PC race then they will also be a CR 1/2 creature and no longer fit the niche they are designed to fit.
Considering about 2 out of every 3 1st level adventures feature kobolds and many other 1st-5th level adventures do as well I would like to keep that material usable. There are already creatures suitable to fill the CR 1/3, CR 1/2, CR 1 niches. There are very few humanoids that fit the CR 1/4 niche, lets not eliminate this one which is a favored first level enemy for PCs.
After a great deal of playtesting, I think the original CR of most creatures, especially the Monster Manual creatures, could stand being lowered or the creatures themselves buffed up a bit. We played several chapters of Savage Tide without altering the creatures and the Pathfinderized PCs slaughtered them without ever being in any real peril, which reflects the increased hit points, feats, and race/class synergies that Pathfinder added. I'm sure that the power curve isn't always so steep, but kobolds with their ridiculously high strength penalty and the normal array of scores given to them were rarely much of a threat, even in 3.5. A fraction of a CR, if we were to treat CR fractions the way DnD treats all other fractions, would round down to CR 0.
I'm not suggesting they be eliminated as a first level enemy, but kobolds have achieved an almost legendary place in the DnD universe, and it would be really sad to relegate them to being slaughtered handily at first level and never seen again just to maintain their usefulness as first-level mooks. At the very least, they should be treated fairly and have another +2 to one of their stats, just as the player races have.
Not to turn this into a debate about CR, but the CR system has always been somewhat flawed, when an ECL 1 player character is meant to be equal to a CR 1 challenge, and yet four ECL 1 characters are called for to beat a CR 1 monster.
"Halflings stand about 3 feet tall and usually weigh between 30 and 35 pounds. A kobold is 2 to 2½ feet tall and weighs 35 to 45 pounds. Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3. " -SRD
My question is if halflings are taller and weigh less, why are they stronger? I will assume that Kobolds are hunched over and thus shorter, so if we were to nail a Halfling and a Kobold to a board side by side they would be about the same size lengthwise. That means that they are heavier and faster, which would make me think they are as strong as or stronger than a Halfling. I would use the Halfling racial adjustments for both.
As for the challenge rating thing, a third level Kobold warrior should knock the snot out of a 1st level fighter.
As for the challenge rating thing, a third level Kobold warrior should knock the snot out of a 1st level fighter.
Well, warrior isn't really the best choice for a kobold to begin with... And if you look at a 1st level fighter with 20 STR - I don't think a 3rd level kobold warrior would be able to stand up against him one on one.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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being related to dragons, i'd favor a +2 to Cha rather than to Con. that should make them natural born sorcerers.
I agree.
+2 DEX +2 CHA -2 STR (-4 STR was always way too extreme IMHO). This brings them in line with the PF Maxim of one +2 Physical Stat, one +2 Mental Stat and one -2 to Any Stat. Other than that, they are good to go as they are I think.
Just looking for some reasonable stats for a Kobold on the back of what 4e has done with them.
Basically they are a +2DEX +2CON race instead of the original -4STR +2DEX -2CON
Looking for a Pathfinder Kobold would something like +2DEX +2CON -2CHA be acceptable ?
I would keep the Kobold as is. Its the challenge of playing such a physically limited character that appeals to me.
I consider charisma to be not only to be charm but force of personality - You can be a truly detestable person but through shear force of personality dominate others - Hitler, Blackbeard, Sulla, Pol Pot, Stalin, The Nanny...
To me Kobolds may only be 2 foot tall but they have another 10 foot of self confidence.
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I like the discussion of the kobold so far. Making them a worthwhile LA 0 race is a bit of a challenge that's for sure. Ever consider counting them as a LA -1 race so you have to start with 2 HD to be ECL 1?
Minor Threadjack: Anyone know the draconic word for "scream"? The lexicon of draconic words is pretty thin. Even "roar" or "shout" would be fine.
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I'm all for either -2 Str, +2 Dex and +2 Cha, or perhaps just dropping the +2 Cha because of the +1 Natural Armor. The WotC site had an article proposing giving them a few other perks, such as a Slight Build trait (squeeze as a Tiny creature, not a Small one) and natural Claw and Bite attacks.
(Frankly, I think Orcs and Half-Orcs (and Gnolls, etc.) should have a Bite attack as well. 1d3 lethal for Half-Orcs and 1d4 for Orcs, at the minimum, given the monstrous fangs and tusks they seem to be toting around!)
I wouldn't mind seeing a couple different races of Kobold. The original Kobolds were dog-like, and the newer Kobolds are dragon-blooded. One setting difference I've considered is having the Kobolds be the original dog-ape-men, while the dragon-blooded critters are called Wyrmkin, and not just related to dragons, but actually hatched in numbers from unfertilized dragon eggs, which female dragons produce annually, allowing for female dragons to have a ready source of worshipful minions, devoted to their 'mother.' Wyrmkin from the same mother can't interbreed, but orphaned Wyrmkin are fertile with Wyrmkin of the same color, but different parents, so there are tribes of 'wild' Wyrmkin, seeking out a new mother to take them in.
Minor Threadjack: Anyone know the draconic word for "scream"? The lexicon of draconic words is pretty thin. Even "roar" or "shout" would be fine.
Song is Miirik, Speak is Renthisj.
You could put some other word, like Far (karif), Strong (versvesk) or Storm (kepesk) in front of Speak or Song to make a composite word for shout.
FarSpeak - Karifrenthisj
StormSong - Kepeskmiirik
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Another interesting take on the kobold would be to make them more vulture-like. Scrawny, cowardly scavengers that attack weak and sickly prey from a distance (slings and simple ranged attacks) and then fall on the body in a squawking frenzy. Their traps could be a way to provide "road kill" for the flock.
Just elongate their necks, change their posture to a more bird-like one, and give them a hopping gait. Bingo, vulture kobolds!
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Just elongate their necks, change their posture to a more bird-like one, and give them a hopping gait. Bingo, vulture kobolds!
That's pretty cool sounding. Makes me wonder if it might be fun to have a little race like the goblins from Labyrinth, all different in appearance, and have some be vulture like, some be lizard like, some be dog like, etc. Tiny wannabe Rakshasa, little freaky anthros!
Just one question: I've been checking the Pathfinder Beta several times now, but can't seem to find it: What happened to the "-4 size penalty on grapple checks"
It's listed in the section about CMB (Combat Manuever Bonus,) and it's been changed. Small creatures get a -1 on their CMB (which applies to all special combat manaeuvers,) not -4.
Also... I have my own thoughts on D&D kobolds... which can essentially be summed up as:
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D&D kobolds are just... weird, man.
In old Germanic Folklore, they were a type of sprite, with underground mining or house haunting breeds.
Then in D&D, they became subteranean mining lizard-dog-men (presumably because fey are supposed to look like Tinkerbell.)
Somewhere around 2nd Ed, they started looking kind of like rats, (at least in DiTerlizzi's always cool artwork.) I actually liked this look. If kobolds are a subterranean race, tunnel-digging rats aren't a bad base.
Then, in 3rd Ed, they became tiny hominid dragons. Dragons. We go from underground mining sprites to mini-dragons? What the Heck, D&D? What the heck?
Weird.
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So... not especially germaine to the discussion of D&D Kobolds as a PC race, but I've been wanting to say it for a while, now. Sorry... ^-^;
D&D kobolds are just... weird, man.
<More or less my exact feelings on the matter>
So... not especially germaine to the discussion of D&D Kobolds as a PC race, but I've been wanting to say it for a while, now. Sorry... ^-^;
I never liked the draconic angle, and I really didn't like the write-up in Races of the Dragon (unless you read it as propaganda - I can't see a gnomish god killing hundreds of innocents. The more traditional version of the rivalry makes more sense). I liked Dragon Mountain, Tucker's Kobolds, the strange things in the first Monster Manual and - the first picture of a kobold I ever saw - that emaciated, bare-chested, loinclothed li'l dog-man skewering a snake in the old "pink box" D&D set. To an extent, I also liked "The Orcs of Thar."
As far as kobold pc's go, remember that you've not only got that point of natural armor but a full 30' speed. That's more than worth the unfavorable stat penalties, IMO.
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Agreed. I was approaching this from an "if you wanted kobolds as a PC race" angle, which I had somehow read into the OP's query. In that regard, a +2 to Cha makes sense. If you wanted to retain the CR 1/4, you could drop the Str penalty to -4, as it is in 3.5. That gives you weak creatures with a touch of magical ability, much like kobolds are now.Well that's the catch, kobolds are kobolds, if you change them to be suitable for a PC race then they are no longer suitable for a CR 1/4 monster. If someone wants to invent a 'Greater Kobold' race for use as a PC race then it's all good, just leave the MM kobolds as the CR 1/4 critter that 1st level PCs love to kick around.
Nope, a Kobold PC would just need an elite array to justify the stat changes...and therefore CR change. Any Kobold worth playing as a PC would use an elite template, which in terms of character creation would be a rearranging of the stat mods. Just my 2 coppers
Here's what I worked up for my Pathfinder game, with variants based loosely on the options from Classic Monsters Revisted:
Kobold Racial Traits
• -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.
• Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -1 penalty to CMB, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
• A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.
• Racial Feats: A kobold character gains feats according to its character class.
• +1 natural armor bonus.
• Light sensitivity (Ex): Kobolds are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
• Color: Kobold characters gain a special racial bonus based on their color:
Black: +1 bonus to the DC of acid spells and +2 bonus on Swim checks.
Blue: +1 bonus to the DC of illusion spells and +1 bonus to fortitude saves.
Brass: +1 bonus to the DC of compulsion spells and a +2 bonus to Bluff checks.
Bronze: +1 bonus to the DC of electricity spells and a +2 bonus to Swim checks.
Copper: +1 bonus to the DC of earth spells and a +2 bonus to Climb checks.
Gold: +1 bonus to all saving throws.
Green: +1 bonus to the DC of compulsion spells and +2 bonus on Stealth checks.
Red: +1 bonus to the DC of fire spells and +2 bonus to saves vs fear.
Silver: +1 bonus to the DC of air spells and +2 bonus to Fly checks.
White: +1 bonus to the DC of cold spells and +1 bonus to will saves.
But then again, I like the dragonic heritage of kobolds, so your mileage may vary.
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In old Germanic Folklore, they were a type of sprite, with underground mining or house haunting breeds.
<enter clueless mode>
I have a few dozen kobolds living in my front garden box. In the past three years, I've transplanted some to the garden by the front walkway and again to a nice open patch near the lilac in the back yard.They seem to thrive in full sun and grow very quickly. Very pretty IMO, and they compliment the dragon's blood nicely.
<exit clueless mode>