"This is all very interesting stuff... but I still think there should be more scantily clad females :)"


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Gailbraithe wrote:
There's a world of difference between being a sensitive male and being a SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy).

Gailbraithe,

You should think about going back and editing that message significantly. Probably the best bet is to delete it entirely.

Dark Archive

Jal Dorak wrote:

Again, apologies for getting too serious over this thread (and to Set for coming off like I was a knight in shining armor or something, I really just meant it for all parties to take a breath).

Thanks man, I hope I didn't come across as insulting or belittling to your point of view either. I try to avoid name-calling, and hopefully didn't cause you any offense, 'cause that's the last thing a forum dedicated to a fairly select niche (fantasy RPGS) needs, is internal strife. It's like the last two people on earth getting in a fight and not talking to each other. :)

Wow. Just noticed Galbraithe's last post. Oy. And ouch. Might want to edit that before moderation and a time-out is involved.


Just a biological note (removing my usual 'jester's hat' for a momnet) -

After watching an episode of House (yeah, not a great place to learn reality, but it is based in medical science, at least) I learned a fun fact - he had a young teen patient that was a model, and it turned out the reason why she was so overly sensual for her age (as in developed AND sexual maturity) is because her body was not resitant to estrogen (which normal females havea high tolerance for). On the other hand, males have XERO tolerance for it... and it turns out that 'she' was a 'he' who's testicles never dropped, which caused all sorts of hormonal imbalances.

So 'she' was supposed to be a male FIRST, but the process never completed, defaulting to the 'feamle mode' internally and producing too much estrogen for her MALE body to handle, making 'him' OVERLY female (developed).

I'm just posting this in response to the post that suggested everyone is female, and men are off-shoots of that.

I'm not even sure who's point I just proved, but from now I'm going t think twice about any cute girls who are a little 'too' cute. ;)

Anyway, GOOD art sells a book, and only a bad book needs to rely on a 'cheesecake' pic to sell, so paizo needn't worry about that.

I can't believe womaen are offended that men find them physically attractive, and yet cosmetics and clothing are both billion-dollar industries. Who are they trying to look good for? Each other?

There was a time when women checked me out (however brief that was), and I loved every minute of it and wish I could recapture those days.

Liberty's Edge

I can't believe the post monster ate my last post. It was a thing of beauty.


Chris Mortika wrote:

If "User R is a bastard" is considered a personal attack, then I think "People like User R are bastards" should be considered so, as well. We're trying to avoid personal attacks in these discussions.

I wish I had something more to add to the actual topic; but I've said my piece already.

QFT. And, for the record, while I think Gilbraithe's gone way beyond the pale in the last two responses, I'm not going to be calling for moderation, nor am I supporting anyone else who does.

I'm more interested in working on a Burnt Offerings/Hook Mountain mash-up right now. Anyone who's interested, post info there.

Edit: And thank you Set, Dennis and Chris for your responses to that post from Gilbraithe. Set, in particular, I thank since we've had such issues on this thread.

Dark Archive

roguerouge wrote:
Edit: And thank you Set, Dennis and Chris for your responses to that post from Gilbraithe. Set, in particular, I thank since we've had such issues on this thread.

As I would hope is the case, after the zillion or so times (slight exagerration) I've mentioned it in this thread, I'm not a sexist. I just don't like insults being thrown around, regardless of the gender of the thrower or the thrown-at.

Scarab Sages

Set wrote:
roguerouge wrote:
Edit: And thank you Set, Dennis and Chris for your responses to that post from Gilbraithe. Set, in particular, I thank since we've had such issues on this thread.

As I would hope is the case, after the zillion or so times (slight exagerration) I've mentioned it in this thread, I'm not a sexist. I just don't like insults being thrown around, regardless of the gender of the thrower or the thrown-at.

It is so funny that this is the exact reason I jumped into the thread. Like Aubrey mentioned (I think it was Aubrey) it seems some of us have very similar views, we are just coming at things from a different angle - and really it is pretty obvious who has been having reasonable discussions.

We should be fighting the REAL enemy: male pattern baldness! ;)


So this is my first time posting here although I have been lurking for about the last month or so and all I can say is....wow... just wow.
I have been talking about this topic with my wife recently and telling her that the conversation has been heated although informative and thought provoking.
Until just recently anyway, when Gailbraithe had layeth the verbal smackdown.
Now mind you I dont have a dog in this fight but I kind of have to say that my inital thoughts are very similar as Gailbraithe's upon reading R&R's comments.
Although his comments were harsh I do think that what he is stating is pretty much fact.
Men have indeed been taught to discount their "maleness" as something barbaric, also Men are very often portrayed as clueless morons in television who cannot hope to survive and thrive without the support of the opposite gender.
"Home improvement" for example is the perfect example of men being portrayed in less than favorable terms, by displaying the "average guy" as dim witted, shallow and must resort to articulating their thoughts with a grunt, and demanding "more power".
Meanwhile the "enlightend" men of the series i.e. the neighbor and Tim Allens co-host are portayed as hyper sensitive and philisopical men who behave in a more feminine way than my wife or mother.
We as men are expected by the media to not only mock ourselves for having a "Avergae Male" outlook on life but to buy the t-shirt and DVD set to remind us of our stupidity as well.
Mind you we are expected to, (as this thread has demonstrated) suffer the consequences of being treated as a shallow male without the benefit of actually being a shallow male.
Just look what happend when someone made a JOKE thread about acting like a sterotypical shallow man.


Well said!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

sacerd wrote:
Just look what happend when someone made a JOKE thread about acting like a sterotypical shallow man.

But, I actualy am a "sterotypical shallow man." =8-O


Lord Fyre wrote:
sacerd wrote:
Just look what happend when someone made a JOKE thread about acting like a sterotypical shallow man.
But, I actualy am a "sterotypical shallow man." =8-O

[stereotypical shallow hetero man, perhaps <G>] Heh...having known Lord Fyre in real life for awhile, we've talked about the role of true neutrals (like, for instance, 1st-2nd Ed. druids), that to be true neutral in a fantasy world where evil frequently outnumbers good, druids should be on the good guys' side until the numbers were more even. Well, until there's as many scantily-clad males as females out there, I'll keep clamoring for equal time for us het gals who appreciate the loincloth (or at least, shirtless!) eye candy. ;->

Scarab Sages

In the end, isn't playing out these big ideas in a hypothetical world the reason we do FRPG?

In my world, I hypothesize a society that is totally feminized by 'radical feminism' in the form of the drow, both good and evil. I hypothesize a world of 'John Wayne' masculinity through the dwarves, ruined by reproduction to a society without enough women.

Now that I have the root words for weamen and women, I can add that to the mix.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Okay, just out of interest, I did a skin count of the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer. I did not count images where it was difficult to make out the sex of the people involved. I marked them as male, fully clothed; male, naughty-naughty; female, fully clothed; female naughty-naughty. Then I crunched the numbers.

Male Fully-clothed = 16
Male Naughty-naughty = 8
Female Fully-clothed = 8
Female Naughty-naughty = 8

So, it would appear men are more likely to get appropriately dressed in the morning, though many men consider appropriately dressed to mean a loin cloth.

There is actually more man-flesh on display here than woman-flesh. There are no pictures of women on their knees dragging chariots.

But! There are more men period. There are more fully-clothed men doing masculine things in a masculine world.

Counter argument spoilered:

Spoiler:

I know ... I know ... You could argue that in a patriarchal world, men do get seen more while women get hidden from public life. You could say that this imbalance reflects the public-male / private-female imbalance of patriarchy and that Paizo would be denying sexism exists if it didn't show it. Good argument that.

There are two easy ways to aim for more 'balance' if that is what Pathfinder needs.

Spoiler:

And I'm not saying balance is what we need ... Personally, I think what we need is to be a little nicer to each other, learn to listen better, and stop having such thin skins ... Yah bunch of sexist whiners / easily outraged pro-feminist guys.

One way to aim for more balance would be to make Valeros wear a loin cloth but that would still result in more male images than women. It also could result in me getting that uncomfortable feeling I got when I saw David Bowie in Labyrinth at the age of 15.

Another way to have more balance (and one that I prefer as it wouldn't involve me asking if Freud was right) is just to have more ordinarily dressed women present in the world. What, priestesses don't get struck by meteors or witness executions or raise evil gods? Simple. Add more women. What this place needs is more fully-dressed women.

Data spoilered for verification:

Spoiler:

Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer skin count:

Outside Front Cover
-- Valeros, fully clothed; Seoni showing cleavage.

Page 2
-- three iconics / not a lot of skin showing

Page 4
-- racial line-up in underwear -- equal numbers of male and female (elves count as both, right?) ... men show more skin

Page 6
-- Azlanti male, fully clothed. Looks haughty

Page 7
-- Chelaxian female, cleavage, looks naughty

P. 8
-- Garundi male, fully clothed.

P. 9
-- Kellid male, shirtless.

P. 10
-- Keleshite female, fully clothed.

P. 11
-- Mwangi male, shirtless.

P. 12
-- Taldan male, fully clothed.

P. 13
-- Tian female, V-neck but no cleavage.

P. 14
-- Ulfen male, fully clothed and hairy.

P. 15
-- Varisian female ... "You AREN'T going out of the house dressed like that young lady!"

P. 17
-- Vudrani female, loose fitting robes appropriate for a monk.

P. 18
-- two fully clothed males about to be destroyed by a giant meteor.

P. 25
-- Andoran male, fully clothed.

P. 29
-- six males; three fully clothed/armoured; three on their knees in loin cloths.

P. 32
-- crowd scene, fully clothed. [not included in data]

P. 42
-- three iconics, fully clothed.

P. 47
-- two iconics, fully clothed plus Seoni slapping her naked thigh.

P. 58
-- hard to see image

Inside Back Cover
-- Valeros fully clothed; Seoni showing leg.

Outside Back Cover
-- Andoran pinhead male, fully clothed.

Cheers.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Lady Bluehawk wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
sacerd wrote:
Just look what happend when someone made a JOKE thread about acting like a sterotypical shallow man.
But, I actualy am a "sterotypical shallow man." =8-O

[stereotypical shallow hetero man, perhaps <G>] Heh...having known Lord Fyre in real life for awhile, we've talked about the role of true neutrals (like, for instance, 1st-2nd Ed. druids), that to be true neutral in a fantasy world where evil frequently outnumbers good, druids should be on the good guys' side until the numbers were more even. Well, until there's as many scantily-clad males as females out there, I'll keep clamoring for equal time for us het gals who appreciate the loincloth (or at least, shirtless!) eye candy. ;->

Hush You! :PPPPPPP


Gailbraithe wrote:


My experience leads me to believe that guys like roguerogue seek acceptance from misandristic quasi-feminists* like krissbeth primarily because they can't it hack in male peer groups and always end up being the low man on the totem pole. So instead, they try to weasel their way into the company of women who don't like men by embracing the hate.

While you may not want to hear this right now, I feel the need to write this:

Hello. I played football, offensive line and special teams mostly. I was quite good at baseball (2B, mostly) and theater (stage manager). I was generally popular as a kid. I was very popular in college, despite being disabled for two years while there. I did debate, theater, and newspaper. I was pretty good at all of them and was selected to leadership positions in campus organizations for the latter two.

My professional job is to teach media studies to college students. I've done that for eight years, starting when I was 26. I've been elected president of my union; I hope to be re-elected. I've had articles accepted for publication in four books, which are out or forthcoming: "Battlestar Galactica: Finding the Way Home", "At Sixes and Sevens: Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the UPN Years", "Buffy and Angel Conquer the Internet: Essays on Online Fandom", and "A Dragon Wrecked My Prom". I've been in a movie that will be showing at the AFI, "Playing Columbine". I just finished presenting a paper at my tenth conference. You can see an example of my writing here: http://www.slayageonline.com/essays/slayage22/Kociemba.htm. I have male friends and female friends. My gaming groups have had 8 women and 8 women in them. I have a girlfriend and we're moving in together on Friday.

No, Galbraithe, I'm not all the man I could be. I'd like to be richer. I'd like to never make mistakes or lose my temper. I'd like a better CON score. I'd like tenure, but that's not going to happen for at least a decade. (And by that point, tenure may very well be dead as a doornail.) I'd like to have not had my heart broken a couple of times. I'd like to take back being an enormous jackass to a few women that I've dated. (They know who they are and what I did.)

But all in all, I'm pretty satisfied with who I am.

But, mostly, I wanted to say that I don't hate men or masculinity; in fact, I rather like being a heterosexual white man. There's quite a few perks. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I'm sorry that I had to say all that. I hope it helps someone to read it. Writing it certainly helped me.


Tarren Dei wrote:
Okay, just out of interest, I did a skin count of the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer.

Awesome post. I'll get around to doing the modules after my move.

Dark Archive

Jal Dorak wrote:
We should be fighting the REAL enemy: male pattern baldness! ;)

My 90-something year old grandfather passed away a few years back with a thick, full head of (very white) hair, and the gene for male pattern baldness appears to have skipped all of my make relatives. All my young life I gloated behind my back at other guys, knowing that they were going to go bald, and I would be able to taunt them with my magnificent snowy pelt.

Now I'm over 40, with my luxurious mane and all of my friends are *deliberately shaving their heads!*

Jerks. Stealing my fun. When I was young losing your hair was considered a sign of impotence! Men would wear horribly tacky 'rugs' to try and pretend they weren't going bald! Nowadays being bald is considered a sign of virility. Bah.

[squireofgothos] It's not fair! I was winning! [/squireofgothos]


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
roguerouge wrote:


For me, it was Hook Mountain Massacre and, specifically, the character of Mammy Graul.

I'm assuming it was because she was an interesting villain, not because of her wardrobe malfunction?

Yep. Logue made me go out and buy the first two.

The image is... well, see the first post on this thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/burntOfferingsMeetsHookMountain

Let's just say that I think that they could have done more with Mammy in the narrative. I also loved the Carnival module.

Silver Crusade

roguerouge wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
Okay, just out of interest, I did a skin count of the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer.
Awesome post. I'll get around to doing the modules after my move.

Crown of the Kobold King is so gonna skew the average. ;)

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Mikaze wrote:
roguerouge wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
Okay, just out of interest, I did a skin count of the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer.
Awesome post. I'll get around to doing the modules after my move.
Crown of the Kobold King is so gonna skew the average. ;)

Trying to figure out when to count monsters is going to screw the 'scientific validity' of this ... we'll have to include a monstrous humanoid male fully dressed / monstrous humanoid male naughty-naughty ... etc. ... But for now ...

Since Gavgoyle was kind enough to send me his extra copy of D1.5 I'll do that one. Thanks Gavgoyle!

Male Fully-clothed = 3
Female Fully-clothed = 1
Female Naughty-naughty = 2

For those of you playing at home that's:

Spoiler:

P.7
Hey, who the hell is that fully dressed white haired person on p. 7 with Krya. I'm putting that down as:
male fully dressed;
female fully dressed

P.11
Male fully dressed but in bad shape

P. 12
Valeros, fully dressed
Female wraith, torn clothes ... I putting that down as 'female naughty-naughty' and will admit my neck is all tingling when I look at her.

Liberty's Edge

roguerouge wrote:
While you may not want to hear this right now, I feel the need to write this:

I am thoroughly impressed by your ability to post credentials and accomplishments from the safety of anonymity. I have absolutely no idea what your point was.

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Gailbraithe wrote:
roguerouge wrote:
While you may not want to hear this right now, I feel the need to write this:
I am thoroughly impressed by your ability to post credentials and accomplishments from the safety of anonymity. I have absolutely no idea what your point was.

His post was in response to your attempt to reduce him to a one liner with your very personal attack and he's trying to show you he's more than that.

You suggested that men who are interested in fighting sexism are just trying to get in the pants of feminists was really out there. Some men are honestly involved in battling sexism because they think it is necessary and perhaps for personal reasons. For example, men are more likely to be attacked on the street by strangers than women are. (Women are more likely to be attacked in the home by someone they trust than on the street). Playground bullying is the policing of masculine desire.

I for one have suffered horrific violence at the hands of men and have very real reasons for combatting sexism. There are a lot of men like that.

Ironically, I also like pictures with boobies in them. There are a lot of men like that, too.

Scarab Sages

Sutekh the Destroyer wrote:

In the end, isn't playing out these big ideas in a hypothetical world the reason we do FRPG?

Er,nope...we play FRPGs to kill Orcs, by Golly!

-Uriel


Tarren Dei wrote:
Gailbraithe wrote:
I am thoroughly impressed by your ability to post credentials and accomplishments from the safety of anonymity. I have absolutely no idea what your point was.
His post was in response to your attempt to reduce him to a one liner with your very personal attack and he's trying to show you he's more than that.

Just to add: I understood what he was saying just fine too..

Dark Archive

Gailbraithe wrote:
roguerouge wrote:
While you may not want to hear this right now, I feel the need to write this:
I am thoroughly impressed by your ability to post credentials and accomplishments from the safety of anonymity. I have absolutely no idea what your point was.

That you were wrong. Also? Being a jerk.

He just used too many words.

Silver Crusade

Let's not lose the civil and funny just after the thread found them again now!

Tarren Dei wrote:

Trying to figure out when to count monsters is going to screw the 'scientific validity' of this ... we'll have to include a monstrous humanoid male fully dressed / monstrous humanoid male naughty-naughty ... etc. ... But for now ...

I hadn't even thought about the kobolds themselves. There were a lot of reptilian pecs showing in that weren't there...

But you know, if you open this up to the monsters it opens up quite a few doors. Dark and forbidding doors.

Dark Archive

Mikaze wrote:
But you know, if you open this up to the monsters it opens up quite a few doors. Dark and forbidding doors.

Did Mammy Graul count? I have no idea if it was exploitation of the female form, but it was wrong.

Silver Crusade

Set wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
But you know, if you open this up to the monsters it opens up quite a few doors. Dark and forbidding doors.

Did Mammy Graul count? I have no idea if it was exploitation of the female form, but it was wrong.

I thought it was meant as a sort of homage to the more voluptuous standard of beauty of the Pre-Raphaelites.

I could be overthinking it though.


Tarren Dei wrote:

Trying to figure out when to count monsters is going to screw the 'scientific validity' of this ... we'll have to include a monstrous humanoid male fully dressed / monstrous humanoid male naughty-naughty ... etc. ... But for now ...

Mikaze wrote:

I hadn't even thought about the kobolds themselves. There were a lot of reptilian pecs showing in that weren't there...

But you know, if you open this up to the monsters it opens up quite a few doors. Dark and forbidding doors.

When I do the modules next week, I'll do a subset called "monster fetishes" or "unconventional."

Scarab Sages

Tarren Dei wrote:
Since Gavgoyle was kind enough to send me his extra copy of D1.5 I'll do that one. Thanks Gavgoyle!

/Carefully steps in over landmines.

No problem, man! Hope you enjoyed it!

/Carefully steps back out past the Paizo explosive ordinance disposal team barriers and walks briskly around the corner.

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Gavgoyle wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
Since Gavgoyle was kind enough to send me his extra copy of D1.5 I'll do that one. Thanks Gavgoyle!

/Carefully steps in over landmines.

No problem, man! Hope you enjoyed it!

/Carefully steps back out past the Paizo explosive ordinance disposal team barriers and walks briskly around the corner.

Chicken.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

roguerouge wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:

Trying to figure out when to count monsters is going to screw the 'scientific validity' of this ... we'll have to include a monstrous humanoid male fully dressed / monstrous humanoid male naughty-naughty ... etc. ... But for now ...

Mikaze wrote:

I hadn't even thought about the kobolds themselves. There were a lot of reptilian pecs showing in that weren't there...

But you know, if you open this up to the monsters it opens up quite a few doors. Dark and forbidding doors.

When I do the modules next week, I'll do a subset called "monster fetishes" or "unconventional."

Oh, sure, cause that's what we need ... a 'to-buy' list for the furries and monster porn collectors. Soon we'll have people starting threads like: "this is all very interesting stuff... but I still think there should be more scantily clad ogrekin:)"


Tarren Dei wrote:


Oh, sure, cause that's what we need ... a 'to-buy' list for the furries and monster porn collectors. Soon we'll have people starting threads like: "this is all very interesting stuff... but I still think there should be more scantily clad ogrekin:)"

Actually, if we get enough data together, I thought I'd start an illustration list/catalog to aid (or pre-empt) future illustration threads. They are, as Watcher observed, an inevitable feature of these sites.

Scarab Sages

roguerouge wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:


Oh, sure, cause that's what we need ... a 'to-buy' list for the furries and monster porn collectors. Soon we'll have people starting threads like: "this is all very interesting stuff... but I still think there should be more scantily clad ogrekin:)"
Actually, if we get enough data together, I thought I'd start an illustration list/catalog to aid (or pre-empt) future illustration threads. They are, as Watcher observed, an inevitable feature of these sites.

Nah, the people that want that will play 4th Edition, where even the lizards have bewbs.

Liberty's Edge

Tarren Dei wrote:
You suggested that men who are interested in fighting sexism are just trying to get in the pants of feminists was really out there.

No, I suggested that some men feign interest in fighting sexism by taking easy pot-shots at other men rather than deal with real and meaningful examples of sexism. It's a trick, making oneself look good by making the other guy look bad.

Joining the White Ribbon Campaign to end domestic violence is a noble and meaningful way a man who is opposed to sexism can make a difference. Being aware of harassment in the workplace and reporting it when ou see it is another way.

Jumping on Krome's case for desperately trying to win the Class Clown Award with his Adam Corolla anti-PC bad boy Man Show act is not fighting sexism, it's self-righteous posturing that doesn't do anything accept make guys like Adam Corolla seem justified.


Wow. I go out of town for a few days and this thread swings back and forth faster than... Err I better not cite an example as someone might be offended by it.

Summarizing - Are we OK? Is this thread really so volatile, or does it HAVE TO be?

rougerouge - I sensed the connection btwn you and Krissbeth. (besides your profiles linked you geographically.) At first I thought she might have been your alias, hence my query. BTW, I applaud your efforts in the real world to get students to think about the ramifications of media. Unfortunately I don't think her short-lived participation in this thread was a positive for her, but I also think that she brought some of that down on herself. IMO. There were some of us trying to understand her POV better, but the anger in her posts was ever present.

Back to summarizing - The OP didn't direct his comments at anyone in particular, or to insult, IMO. The thread turned mean, changed to an intellectual debate, turned mean again, and now we're back to intellectual/tongue-in-cheek?

I think we can all agree, I may be wrong here, the FRPG is something very personal to us. Hence the temperature levels rising so quickly when personal preferences are expressed/questioned/attacked. Some people take things very seriously, while others don't. Some have a strong desire to shape the future of RPG, some are happier not doing so.

Slicing and dicing posts, reading WAY too much into things (such as Set's joke about doing it the wrong way. Heck, I've seen that joke on t-shirts a long time ago.), and LOOKING for offense at every turn doesn't foster debate and help people grow in understanding.

Cliche - isn't there room for all? Or has political correctness damaged our individuality?

Note - I have used IMO a couple of times. It means exactly that. In my opinion. Feel free to disagree with it.

Dark Archive

Emperor7 wrote:
Cliche - isn't there room for all? Or has political correctness damaged our individuality?

It does seem that some people regard a person having an opposite opinion as some form of oppression, or denial of *their* right to have an opposite opinion.

If anything, disagreeing with someone is an *affirmation* of *everybody's* right to have a different opinion.

Then again, some opinions are regarded as simply *wrong* by some people. Similarly, not everyone regards other people as equals and is quick to state that they are deficient somehow because they disagree, instead of respecting their right to disagree and seeing disagreement as an opportunity to hone and strengthen their own position with a lively conversation.


Set wrote:
Emperor7 wrote:
Cliche - isn't there room for all? Or has political correctness damaged our individuality?

It does seem that some people regard a person having an opposite opinion as some form of oppression, or denial of *their* right to have an opposite opinion.

If anything, disagreeing with someone is an *affirmation* of *everybody's* right to have a different opinion.

Then again, some opinions are regarded as simply *wrong* by some people. Similarly, not everyone regards other people as equals and is quick to state that they are deficient somehow because they disagree, instead of respecting their right to disagree and seeing disagreement as an opportunity to hone and strengthen their own position with a lively conversation.

Certainly lively.

Educational too.

Revealing? Yes. (Not the clothing.)

I did a paper back in '98 about the internet and the opportunities/pitfalls it created by providing anonymity to the writer. Unintentionally this thread certainly proved that people can open up more freely on the web. Or pretend to be someone else entirely, exploring different aspects/desires of themselves. The freedom of the web can be both good and bad. Depends on whose hand is by the keyboard.

Silver Crusade

roguerouge wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:


Oh, sure, cause that's what we need ... a 'to-buy' list for the furries and monster porn collectors. Soon we'll have people starting threads like: "this is all very interesting stuff... but I still think there should be more scantily clad ogrekin:)"
Actually, if we get enough data together, I thought I'd start an illustration list/catalog to aid (or pre-empt) future illustration threads. They are, as Watcher observed, an inevitable feature of these sites.

Hey I'm just keeping my eyes open for the planetars and lillends. And ghaeles.

And mariliths.

Don't you judge me!

Silver Crusade

Emperor7 wrote:


I did a paper back in '98 about the internet and the opportunities/pitfalls it created by providing anonymity to the writer. Unintentionally this thread certainly proved that people can open up more freely on the web. Or pretend to be someone else entirely, exploring different aspects/desires of themselves. The freedom of the web can be both good and bad. Depends on whose hand is by the keyboard.

One always has to keep GIFT in mind too. Your neighbors, your spouse, your children could fall victim to it!

Even you![/heavyhanded50'spsa]

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Set wrote:
Emperor7 wrote:
Cliche - isn't there room for all? Or has political correctness damaged our individuality?

It does seem that some people regard a person having an opposite opinion as some form of oppression, or denial of *their* right to have an opposite opinion.

QFT. Now, is this something new or am I just noticing it more?

I wouldn't put it down as political correctness though because it is in no way exclusive to the left. This seems to be a really broad trend.

Part of my job is teaching about genderings and racializations in textbooks. It has become nearly impossible to do this effectively. Conservative students feel attacked that I suggest textbooks might contain racializing pictures. So I bring in some examples of social studies textbooks used in Canada that I would consider to be somewhat racist. Then the radical students feel attacked because they've been forced to look at racist pictures. WTF?

Silver Crusade

Tarren Dei wrote:
Set wrote:
Emperor7 wrote:
Cliche - isn't there room for all? Or has political correctness damaged our individuality?

It does seem that some people regard a person having an opposite opinion as some form of oppression, or denial of *their* right to have an opposite opinion.

QFT. Now, is this something new or am I just noticing it more?

I wouldn't put it down as political correctness though because it is in no way exclusive to the left. This seems to be a really broad trend.

Part of my job is teaching about genderings and racializations in textbooks. It has become nearly impossible to do this effectively. Conservative students feel attacked that I suggest textbooks might contain racializing pictures. So I bring in some examples of social studies textbooks used in Canada that I would consider to be somewhat racist. Then the radical students feel attacked because they've been forced to look at racist pictures. WTF?

IMO, it's too much absolutism from too many parties. I honestly don't know if the polarization in so many areas(hell, take 3.5/4E for example!) has gotten worse or if I'm just noticing more.

Dark Archive

Emperor7 wrote:
I did a paper back in '98 about the internet and the opportunities/pitfalls it created by providing anonymity to the writer. Unintentionally this thread certainly proved that people can open up more freely on the web. Or pretend to be someone else entirely, exploring different aspects/desires of themselves. The freedom of the web can be both good and bad. Depends on whose hand is by the keyboard.

The entire reason I added my real name to my profile is that I don't like anonymity. I like to fool myself that I'm better than that, but it's just too damn tempting to hide behind an alias and be a complete prick to people.

It also forces me to remember with every post that what I am typing is connected to *me,* not some Egyptian diety.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Emperor7 wrote:
The thread turned mean, changed to an intellectual debate, turned mean again, and now we're back to intellectual/tongue-in-cheek?

You just stand there and hold this bucket of water. This thread could go up again any minute.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Set wrote:
It also forces me to remember with every post that what I am typing is connected to *me,* not some Egyptian diety.

You mean you're not REALLY an Egyptian diety.

<looks rather embarrassed and kicks the sacrificed bull laying on his basement floor.>

You couldn't have told us that 15 minutes ago?

Liberty's Edge

Mikaze wrote:
IMO, it's too much absolutism from too many parties. I honestly don't know if the polarization in so many areas(hell, take 3.5/4E for example!) has gotten worse or if I'm just noticing more.

people tend to get VERY defensive when they are made to feel "wrong" about having certain tastes, proclivites, opinions or worldviews (e.g. being labeled a "sexist pig" if you look at a playboy...).

and the PC trend has reached absurdist levels, frankly. i read an article about the failings of political correctness that cited an example in a college level term paper where a student referred to the bishop desmond tutu as a great "african-american" leader.

yes, we are a very polarized society, we have become a nation of thin skinned whiners, by and large, and everyone is on edge for having to walk gingerly through a PC minefield.

tension and anxiety are at an all time high, if xanax, valium, ambien and depacote prescriptions are any indication.

Dark Archive

Tarren Dei wrote:
Set wrote:
It also forces me to remember with every post that what I am typing is connected to *me,* not some Egyptian diety.

You mean you're not REALLY an Egyptian diety.

<looks rather embarrassed and kicks the sacrificed bull laying on his basement floor.>

You couldn't have told us that 15 minutes ago?

I got's connections. I'll put in a good word for you with That Which Is In Charge.

"This is a nice dimension you gots here. Be a shame if something... happened to it."

Liberty's Edge

houstonderek wrote:
people tend to get VERY defensive when they are made to feel "wrong" about having certain tastes, proclivites, opinions or worldviews (e.g. being labeled a "sexist pig" if you look at a playboy...).

This is the thing that gets overlooked, which is why I harp on it a lot.

It's one thing to say "I don't like images of scantily clad women." That's just an opinion.

It's when someone says "I don't like images of scantily clad women, they only appear to sexist men, and they harm women." that the debate gets contentious. Because then any man who does like images of scantily clad women is a sexist, and by implication, unconcerned about the harm caused to women.

That's what makes the argument turn nasty every single time. Because when your opinion is "I don't like images of scantily clad women." then your opinion will tend to be discarded in the face of factors like the large number of paying customers who do like it, and the general desire of entertainment customers to give the customer what they (or in this case, he) wants.

So inevitably, the anti-cheesecake side of the debate has to turn the debate into one not of personal preferences, but one of moral right versus moral wrong. That's called demonizing the opposition.

And yes, it pisses people off and polarizes discussions.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Gailbraithe wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
people tend to get VERY defensive when they are made to feel "wrong" about having certain tastes, proclivites, opinions or worldviews (e.g. being labeled a "sexist pig" if you look at a playboy...).
It's when someone says "I don't like images of scantily clad women, they only appear to sexist men, and they harm women." that the debate gets contentious. Because then any man who does like images of scantily clad women is a sexist, and by implication, unconcerned about the harm caused to women.

True to some extent, but a lot of people here observations of racism and sexism as accusations against individuals.

If I say that "racism exists in Canada", my students hear "Canadians are racist" even though I never individualized it. I could be talking about social policies, economic differentials, discourses, etc., all of which started before the students were born and may still exist after they die but the students hear it as an accusation.

I think that antiracists and (pro)feminists have to accept some responsibility for continually recasting a social problem as an individual failing (although it is not only antiracists and feminists who do this).

Silver Crusade

Gailbraithe wrote:


So inevitably, the anti-cheesecake side of the debate has to turn the debate into one not of personal preferences, but one of moral right versus moral wrong. That's called demonizing the opposition.

Isn't this itself a demonization of the anti-cheesecake side?

Just sayin'. There's been no shortage of over the top accusations being thrown on either side of the issue(for those that believe there can only be two sides to the issue that is).

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