HEAR HEAR!! I also throw my hat into the ring for more scantily clad females!!
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I think what people really mean is "scantily clad females conforming to the modern stereotype of beauty/hotness in submissive poses"
Since, oh, the seventies, the primary scenes of dominance / submission in D&D have been Drow females beating the crap out of / sacrificing males. (Starting in the very first Dieties & Demigods, with the Drow priestess sacrificing some nekkid human dude to Lolth, drawn by Erol Otus, IIRC.)
I'm sure there are devoted fans of Slaves Girls of Gor around still (thankfully they seem unlikely to breed, given their opinion of women, so they'll have died out soon enough), but, barring George Lucas and his Leia-in-chains fetish, the genre moved past that nonsense almost 40 years ago.
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I'm sure there are devoted fans of Slaves Girls of Gor around still (thankfully they seem unlikely to breed, given their opinion of women, so they'll have died out soon enough), but, barring George Lucas and his Leia-in-chains fetish, the genre moved past that nonsense almost 40 years ago.
Actually, Gor fans have mutated into an entire subculture (called "Gorians") in the BDSM scene. There's like 25,000+ of them, and apparently many of them are women. Here's the story where I first heard of them.
And self-lubricating.
:::SHUDDERS:::
Oh sweet Bahamut, there's an image I'll never get out of my head. Sir, by codes of conduct of dragonkind, I am authorized to destroy you.
Kobold servants! Attack!
C'mon, guys. What we really need are more scantily clad MALES! I mean Sajan the Monk iconic is a step in the right direction, but where are the cod-piece wearing Gladiators, the half-Orc Barbarians in wolf-skin loin-cloths, the leather-fetish Executioners, the Mwangi Halfling warriors in vine-leaf skirts? You're all with me on this, aren't you, guys? ... guys???
Woo-hoo! :D
Actually, Gor fans have mutated into an entire subculture (called "Gorians") in the BDSM scene. There's like 25,000+ of them, and apparently many of them are women. Here's the story where I first heard of them.
Having read several of the Gor books, that's...frightening.
:)
Scantily clad females!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am curious why anyone would care what a bunch of strangers, most of whom probably have various porn accounts of their own, are thinking about what you are reading.
Not being one who has to ride a tram, is it normal for people to look over your shoulder and pry into your reading habits and make comments upon it? Seems rather invasive and rude to me. I think I would tell them to mind their own perverted business.
Course, I live in a state where I can carry my .45 ACP to enforce politeness. :)
So, once more... scantily clad females!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because it sends two clear signals:
1. Fantasy gaming is a boys club. The fantasy depicted OF women--and thus FOR women to embody--is a spectacular body to be looked at. The fantasy OF men--and thus FOR men--is to do heroic things. Thus, it suggests that women have no real place in a game about DOING things. This is bad for the game's long term health.
2. Fantasy gaming is for juveniles who use it to compensate for their sexual insecurities. They can't imagine women as people, so clearly they don't interact with women. The last people you want to associate with are people you suspect are thinking, "Scantily clad females!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Essentially, this kind of illustration reinforces the stereotypes of gamers that a generation of gamers fought hard to overcome.
As for the hiding the module with drow in them from GFs, moms and wives? That's a part of it, but I'd be most embarrassed to show a module with drow to other gamers.
Hey, I like the naked and almost-nake female form as much as the next guy, but if you're going to bother showing these lovely ladies scantily clad in fantasy products with only 2 bandaids and a cork, at least have the decency and realism to show the rest of their bodies shredded, defiled, and pulped like they would be after encounter one. It'll provide motivation for the next group that comes by and sees how horrible these monsters really are!! ;-)
On the flip side, everyone would love to adventure with women like that....you'll never be the target, they'll provide ample penalties to an attacker's inish (distraction), and they make superior negotiators that always win the parleys. Unfortunately, they also always get the best loot (minus armor of course).
I don't know. I'm quite content remembering how sexy Joanne Whalley as Sorscha is in full armor than imagining her clad like a Boris Vallejo heroine.
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2. Fantasy gaming is for juveniles who use it to compensate for their sexual insecurities. They can't imagine women as people, so clearly they don't interact with women. The last people you want to associate with are people you suspect are thinking, "Scantily clad females!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Essentially, this kind of illustration reinforces the stereotypes of gamers that a generation of gamers fought hard to overcome.
As for the hiding the module with drow in them from GFs, moms and wives? That's a part of it, but I'd be most embarrassed to show a module with drow to other gamers.
mmmm 40 year old male... married.
I for one am not afraid to say that I like women and scantily clad ones as well. Even fully clad ones. I like women in all shapes and forms. I understand many people are ashamed that they have those "feelings" and are afraid of their primitive side. I am also aware that many people want to do the politically correct thing, but forget that there is a natural thing as well.
and ummmm the last people I want to associate with are the nosy people in a tram looking over my shoulder at what I am reading. If they don't like it, they can mind their own business.
The game has been around nearly 40 years now. I don't think we need to "worry" about it's long term health. Most women I have met (even the homophobic women) prefer the look of a woman's body over a man's. Most women work hard their entire lives to be that "beautiful" cover girl, and in fantasy role playing they do become that icon. I would say that magazines designed and aimed for the female audience does far more harm than D&D. But People and Glamour and Better Homes and Gardens (which I assume only deals with the bedroom based upon their covers) are doing quite well after many years of publication. So I think we can stop worrying about the "health" of the game.
As for sterotypes... yea so what. Sports illustrated has a "bathing suite" issue every year where the models no longer even wear the bathing suits. Nearly every single women's magazine and men's magazine does more to devalue women than any fantasy illustration of a scantily clad female.
The fact is that role playing promotes good mental health in women and men. In the fantasy world you can be strong, powerful, smart and sexy, at the same time being feminine, innocent, wicked, submissive and domineering. In a fantasy world you can be all things. You can be the princess in distress and have a handsome prince rescue you, then turn around and kick the dragon's ass that was about to eat the prince.
As for hiding the pics of the drow... sounds like someone needs some therapy. It's a picture. It's a game. If you are ashamed at that, then there are more problems that need to be dealt with.
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If, something that is beautifl, natural, the icon of perfection and makes you feel ashamed or need to hide it away you might want to consider why.
The female form is by most artists considered the most beautiful of all creation. In every shape, tall, short, skinny, fat, dark skin, fair skin. It doesn't matter (at least to me).
To devalue that greatness and decide it must be nasty, hidden away, and unclean... I just cannot understand that.
Woman is the highest form of mankind.
It's like covering the Hope Diamond becaue it is vulgar in its perfection...
Now, someone tell me I do not know how to intereact with women, that I do not value a woman except for sex.
I appreciate women for what they are: women.
They are not something to be ashamed of. Heck my wife is a woman! And I am certainly not ashamed of her. I love her with all my existence.
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I would rather play a loin-cloth clad, muscles rippling barbarian than a Plate armored fight if I could get a decent AC out of it. If I could get a hold of a loincloth +5 AC and ditch the shield for a codpiece +2 I would!
[threadjack] why are northern barbarians so often depicted as clad in loincloths -such as Conan- it's COLD up there! [/threadjack]
There is one and only one person who can make you offended, ashamed, mad, happy, joyful, embarrased...
You look at that person everyday in the mirror.
You choose how you feel. I suggest choosing the more positive emotions.
I have teen age daughters. One is a gamer. Do you? Feel free to explain it to yours, how that degrading bondage bit on the cover is "the highest form of humanity" etc. Yeah. A certain level of cheese / beef cake is expected in RPG / fantasy art, and then there's the point when it gets excessive. Taste has a role in it...
*edit* It's funny in a way, and it probably shouldn't need an explanation... but life trumps theory.
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Having read several of the Gor books, that's...frightening.What Terry Goodkind is to objectivism, John Norman is to misogyny.
(though I'm convinced there's a bit of overlap when it comes to the misogyny)
I know the Gor books. Who is Terry Goodkind and tell me more about Objectivism.
And I certainly do not feel the Gor books hated women. Subjected women yes, but that is not the same as hatred. Subjugation, and dominance-submissiveness is not the same as hate. If the Gor books hated women, then women would have been slaughtered whenever encountered. That was not the case.
Misogyny d. hatred (or contempt)[1] of women
for contempt a definition would be The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn.
Again I do not think the Gor book sheld women as base, or worthless or scorn, and not really sure inferior was what was intended. These were books of dominance-submissiveness... essentially BDSM in a tamer form.
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There is one and only one person who can make you offended, ashamed, mad, happy, joyful, embarrased...
You look at that person everyday in the mirror.
You choose how you feel. I suggest choosing the more positive emotions.
I have teen age daughters. One is a gamer. Do you? Feel free to explain it to yours, how that degrading bondage bit on the cover is "the highest form of humanity" etc. Yeah. A certain level of cheese / beef cake is expected in RPG / fantasy art, and then there's the point when it gets excessive. Taste has a role in it...
*edit* It's funny in a way, and it probably shouldn't need an explanation... but life trumps theory.
Funny how you were the one who projected the degrading bondage bit and I didn't.... maybe you need to consider where that just came from? :)
I am by no means into BDSM... and funny that you jumped on that so quick :) Maybe you should explain that :)
Funny how you were the one who projected the degrading bondage bit and I didn't.... maybe you need to consider where that just came from? :)
I am by no means into BDSM... and funny that you jumped on that so quick :) Maybe you should explain that :)
The various posts on Drow, Gor, etc. Not difficult to imagine how it crept in. And of course "scantily clad women in submissive poses" or dominating poses. Geez, how did I come to interject that?
*edit* You may not have specifically mentioned that, but it's in the thread. It just adds to the problem of ordinary cheesecake, taking it to places you probably don't want to go... Sorry if my post came off as blaming you for something, I'm not but I'd like gaming to be a hobby my girls feel comfortable sticking with.
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The various posts on Drow, Gor, etc. Not difficult to imagine how it crept in. And of course "scantily clad women in submissive posses" or dominating posses. Geez, how did I come to interject that?Funny how you were the one who projected the degrading bondage bit and I didn't.... maybe you need to consider where that just came from? :)
I am by no means into BDSM... and funny that you jumped on that so quick :) Maybe you should explain that :)
Funny I never said I wanted submissive poses, or dominating poses... and by the way submissive poses and dominant poses do not equal bondage. A submissive pose could, for instance have a figure kneeling and looking up, or even be a head picture, with soft lighting and oblique eyes and full lips. A dominant pose could be a person leaning forward knees bent for action or a head picture with strong harsh lighting with strong eyes and pursed lips.
ummmm none of that involves bondage. It is interesting that dominant and submissive poses immediately equated to bondage :)
Now, next question... ready? Ever look at a woman and think she is attractive, and maybe, maybe even have more carnal thoughts for a few moments? Guess what, nothing wrong with that. I guarentee teenagers, either sex, do that. Nothing wrong with that either.
Funny I never said I wanted submissive poses, or dominating poses... and by the way submissive poses and dominant poses do not equal bondage. A submissive pose could, for instance have a figure kneeling and looking up, or even be a head picture, with soft lighting and oblique eyes and full lips. A dominant pose could be a person leaning forward knees bent for action or a head picture with strong harsh lighting with strong eyes and pursed lips.
ummmm none of that involves bondage. It is interesting that dominant and submissive poses immediately equated to bondage :)
Now, next question... ready? Ever look at a woman and think she is attractive, and maybe, maybe even have more carnal thoughts for a few moments? Guess what, nothing wrong with that. I guarentee teenagers, either sex, do that. Nothing wrong with that either.
Check my edit to my post above yours btw. Most people would equate dominance and submission with bondage. And yes, everybody has thoughts. Those are private and don't make other people uncomfortable. Btw, you never answered -- do you have daughters? My answers would have been pretty much like yours before them. Things change.
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One more question... which is more acceptable to teach children?
That murder, mayhem, destruction, theft, religious intolerance is acceptable?
Or sensuality, reproduction, love, sexuality is accpetable?
Which one do you think RPGs promote? :) any wonder with the games, movies, music, and art out there that kids shoot other kids in school? They are taught from young ages that murder, revenge and violence is acceptable... but by goodness don't let any of those "dirty nasty thoughts enter your mind or you will go blind." Here's a sword, go kill something instead...
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BTW I have always cheered MORE SCANTILY CLAD FEMALES!!!!!!!!!!! partially in jest. Partly because there is nothing wrong with it. The iconic sorcerer Seoni is a scantily clad female. So what?
If someone is offended, then they need to look inside themselves. If your children are offended then teach them to look inside and learn why they are offended and what they need to do to overcome it? If total strangers are offended... could care less... they should mind their own business and not snoop.
One more question... which is more acceptable to teach children?
That murder, mayhem, destruction, theft, religious intolerance is acceptable?
Or sensuality, reproduction, love, sexuality is accpetable?
Which one do you think RPGs promote? :) any wonder with the games, movies, music, and art out there that kids shoot other kids in school? They are taught from young ages that murder, revenge and violence is acceptable... but by goodness don't let any of those "dirty nasty thoughts enter your mind or you will go blind." Here's a sword, go kill something instead...
A well run RPG doesn't center solely around murder, mayhem, etc. It is set in conflict to highlight what it should center around. Character development. Role playing. Not roll playing. Good, evil, sacrifice, nobility, justice, injustice, that type of thing. As for "dirty, nasty thoughts"... a healthy attitude toward life is one thing, objectifying women and encouraging the attitudes that come with that are another. I'm comfortable with my beliefs and attitudes. I guess you are too. And no, I'm not saying you are promoting that. I think my having girls makes me more, perhaps too, sensitive about that.
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Check my edit to my post above yours btw. Most people would equate dominance and submission with bondage. And yes, everybody has thoughts. Those are private and don't make other people uncomfortable. Btw, you never answered -- do you have daughters? My answers would have been pretty much like yours before them. Things change.
Nope no daughters. However I do not believe in "protecting" children by hiding real life from them. I believe in providing them with all the tools they need to deal with life. Including art, bondage even, life and death.
So, if those feelings are natural, even if they are private, they are not wrong. We both agree with that. Depictions of beautiful women, especially scantily clad ones (look at the super market check out line) is everywhere. Having beaitiful pictures in RPGs is not going to harm them any more than those are. And like I said, it encourages a healthier vision of themselves if they can see themselves as beautiful, powerful, stong, and even sexy. That is the difference between RPGs and say Cosmo (you ever read that magazine... it- and most women's magazines- should be behind the counter with Penthouse!) You ever read romance novels? Anywhere from soft porn to full XXX action in those (not all of them of course but a LOT of them). And yet teenage girls can get those but a boy can't get Playboy? Double standard? I think so.
Look, I do not want nasty full bondage (first typed boinkage-which would probably work too) in my RPGs. But I do think there is a place for beautiful women- not just women who want to look like men.
Ugg have not checked your edit. but am about to.
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Ahhh read the edit.
See let me explain the kind of images I like. You remember way back when in WWII (dang almost typed WWIII- knock on wood that ain't happening) the planes had pin-up girls on the sides. Pin-up art was very popular in the 40s and 50s. The hollywood glamour images from the 30s-50s.
Scantily clad women. Gorgeous...
Scantily clad women does not equal porn.
And btw I respect ya very much for being protective of your girls. If I did have daughters I expect I would be very protective of them as well. And I hope, and expect, that you teach them that they can be beautiful without looking like those models on the magazine covers... Those women's magazines especially drive me nuts. They do more to demean women than Playboy does.
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Because it sends two clear signals:
1. Fantasy gaming is a boys club. The fantasy depicted OF women--and thus FOR women to embody--is a spectacular body to be looked at. The fantasy OF men--and thus FOR men--is to do heroic things. Thus, it suggests that women have no real place in a game about DOING things. This is bad for the game's long term health.
Yeah, having women in short skirts and tight sweaters bouncing up and down on the sidelines while the menfolk did all the action-hero stuff on the field sure annhilated the financial success of SuperBowl Sunday.
Also, Nascar. And Rap music. And porn. All in their death-throes. Really.
this kind of illustration reinforces the stereotypes of gamers that a generation of gamers fought hard to overcome.
Yeah, wouldn't want people to think that gamer men are like *every other straight man on the planet, and like boobies.*
Drazmorg will happily accept one or more Olsen twins in the meantime, however.How about Christina Aguilera?
She counts for one pair of twins.
As for hiding the pics of the drow... sounds like someone needs some therapy. It's a picture. It's a game. If you are ashamed at that, then there are more problems that need to be dealt with.
Nope, you're misunderstanding the implication. Drow are lame.
Yeah, wouldn't want people to think that gamer men are like *every other straight man on the planet, and like boobies.*
I think "juvenile" and "pathetic" are the messages being sent, actually.
Then again, I'm not one for overt sexual objectification in my hobbies.
One more question... which is more acceptable to teach children?
That murder, mayhem, destruction, theft, religious intolerance is acceptable?
Or sensuality, reproduction, love, sexuality is accpetable?
Which one do you think RPGs promote?
Actually, I tend to use games to teach that heroism and teamwork are fun, NOT murder, mayhem, and intolerance. I have absolutely no inclination to be part of an evils campaign or even one that tolerates such behavior by the PCs. My games and characters never promote random violence as consequence-free entertainment.
Teaching love and sexuality are fine. Gaming does far too little of that, IMHO. Unfortunately, the illustrations that we're talking about here promote objectification and wanking, which has little to do with love, sensuality, or reproduction.
Actually, I tend to use games to teach that heroism and teamwork are fun, NOT murder, mayhem, and intolerance. I have absolutely no inclination to be part of an evils campaign or even one that tolerates such behavior by the PCs. My games and characters never promote random violence as consequence-free entertainment.Teaching love and sexuality are fine. Gaming does far too little of that, IMHO. Unfortunately, the illustrations that we're talking about here promote objectification and wanking, which has little to do with love, sensuality, or reproduction.
Though honestly, my wisecrack above aside...
This whole thread is one massive example of messageboard predictability.
The Original Poster makes some comment about needing more women to be objectified. Like chum to the sharks.
Dozen of male posters chime in to say they agree.
Later, a few posters comment that this objectification and the hobby doesn't need to tarnish itself with more of it. A few comments about having eye candy for both genders. Another comment about not needing any eye candy...
And we're here.
Same ol' thread played out hundreds of times.
And.. nothing will change. Not one thing. Editorial will not put in any extra scantily clad women than they do already. They won't take any out- because it sells. They'll stick to levels they are at right now.
Nothing will change. And nothing has been learned, other than no matter where anyone stands on this debate, we all salivate when the 'controversial thread' bell is rung.
Dozen of male posters chime in to say they agree.
Thanks for the opening Watcher, here's my post saying yes, more scantily clad females please!
This whole thread is one massive example of messageboard predictability.
The Original Poster makes some comment about needing more women to be objectified. Like chum to the sharks.
Dozen of male posters chime in to say they agree.
Later, a few posters comment that this objectification and the hobby doesn't need to tarnish itself with more of it. A few comments about having eye candy for both genders. Another comment about not needing any eye candy...
And we're here.
Same ol' thread played out hundreds of times.
And.. nothing will change. Not one thing. Editorial will not put in any extra scantily clad women than they do already. They won't take any out- because it sells. They'll stick to levels they are at right now.
Nothing will change. And nothing has been learned, other than no matter where anyone stands on this debate, we all salivate when the 'controversial thread' bell is rung.
Alternatively, this is a teachable moment.
You seem to have an idealized understanding of how advocacy and/or education work, which is that making your point once or even hundreds of times should do the trick, or else it's not worthwhile. As a teacher, I can tell you that the majority of the effect of education is gradual rather than dramatic and plays itself out over thousands of days.
In addition, you seem to mistake the notion that because sexism is prevalent, it is not fixable. Any look at history since Seneca Falls in 1886 would indicate that it is gradually fixable with a great deal of work. The fact that there are hundreds of threads like this indicates how important the task of fighting sexism is, not that it is hopeless.
Sexism, like poverty, may always be with us, but that does not make the fight meaningless. It makes it more meaningful.
Your world-weary post seems to think that we ought to fight only the fights that you can win, lest you get bored. Perhaps, instead, you should learn from Dungeons and Dragons: You should fight the fights that need fighting.
Booooobies!
Yeah, wouldn't want people to think that gamer men are like *every other straight man on the planet, and like boobies.*
I think "juvenile" and "pathetic" are the messages being sent, actually.Then again, I'm not one for overt sexual objectification in my hobbies.
All men are juvenile and pathetic?
Is that a sister trollin'?
bah... forget the silicon injected Barbies...
I call for more scantily clad male iconics. O,o?
I think "juvenile" and "pathetic" are the messages being sent, actually.Then again, I'm not one for overt sexual objectification in my hobbies.
All men are juvenile and pathetic?
Is that a sister trollin'?
Does that say "all men"?
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I get the impression that my first post may have been misinterpreted, I was not asking for "more scantily women in submissive poses", I was suggesting that when people ask for scantily clad women, they may in fact mean the classic "submissive" nature of early RPG pictures (like TSRs book of Eldritch Wizardry).
I am by no means saying it is childish to enjoy the female form (quite the opposite in fact) but it is childish to demand it for no reason (and by saying "BOOBIES!").
Yeah, wouldn't want people to think that gamer men are like *every other straight man on the planet, and like boobies.*
I think "juvenile" and "pathetic" are the messages being sent, actually.
Then again, I'm not one for overt sexual objectification in my hobbies.
Bwahahahaha!
I was going to say that it was strange that RPGs had so many prominently placed scantily clad women but then I thought of how cycling magazines often but scantily clad women. And well sports illustrated has a whole calendar. Well... pretty much everywhere you look there are scantily clad women selling things to men.
Juvenile and pathetic? Maybe. I like to think I don't buy stuff for the scantily clad women but then I really like Seoni. If I had to pick though Merisiel would probably edge her out and she's all pointy edges with only a hint of cleavage.
Do you know something we don't?
He has a certain taste for women with additional... 'hardware', as it were.
Girl gamer here. Things like the cover to Curse of the Crimson Throne Ch. 1 make my heart happy. It's a little thing to most of you, but it's a big deal to me. A little cheesecake here and there is okay but please don't go back to the bad old days. It really does make a big difference in making the hobby welcoming for girls.
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Things like the cover to Curse of the Crimson Throne Ch. 1 make my heart happy. It's a little thing to most of you, but it's a big deal to me. A little cheesecake here and there is okay but please don't go back to the bad old days. It really does make a big difference in making the hobby welcoming for girls.
This is basically my stance on the whole thing as well. One or two cute females here and there doesn't bug me all that much but if we're just swimming in them it kinda gets boring. I'm all for seeing more female NPCs of course, I just don't need them to all be scantily clothed and/or incredibly attractive ('normal' looking women are nice to have too, it gives the sense of realism to the world ;) ).
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Girl gamer here. Things like the cover to Curse of the Crimson Throne Ch. 1 make my heart happy. It's a little thing to most of you, but it's a big deal to me. A little cheesecake here and there is okay but please don't go back to the bad old days. It really does make a big difference in making the hobby welcoming for girls.
If you look back in the forums a bit, you'll see a lot more people clamoring over Seelah's design than there are people seriously asking for more cheesecake, IIRC. That really made my day when that iconic and Kyra were revealed.
Still, I can't help but feel miffed whenever a female character design gets knocked just because someone feels sex appeal isn't built into it according to their own tastes, regardless of whether it's aesthetically pleasing in any other way.
Girl gamer here. Things like the cover to Curse of the Crimson Throne Ch. 1 make my heart happy. It's a little thing to most of you, but it's a big deal to me. A little cheesecake here and there is okay but please don't go back to the bad old days. It really does make a big difference in making the hobby welcoming for girls.
QFT.
Girl gamer here. Things like the cover to Curse of the Crimson Throne Ch. 1 make my heart happy. It's a little thing to most of you, but it's a big deal to me. A little cheesecake here and there is okay but please don't go back to the bad old days. It really does make a big difference in making the hobby welcoming for girls.QFT.
Exactly. I'd like to keep it that way for my girls.