While regular D&D had this problem as well, I think Pathfinder with all the spell like abilities have made it more difficult. basically the question is: how do you "disarm" spellcasters?
So imagine a scenario where the party gets captured or wants to enter a peaceful town that does not allow weapons. All the fighter types have to check their swords and bows and other weapons, but what do you do with spellcasters? Taking away their holy symbols, spell books, and component pouches is a start, but you still have those spontaneous casters and at will abilities to worry about. Any ideas?
Antimagic manacles.
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Cut out their tongue, sever their hands, or simply gag them. If they have spell-like abilities that don't require words or they have silent spells prepped, well, that's one of the perks of being a prepared spellcaster, isn't it?
Oh, wait, you were talking about PC spellcasters wanting to peacefully enter a city. Uh... "I'm a traveling monk. I bear no weapons."
:D
A Mark of Justice with a "Offensive spellcasting" trigger?
A pair of heavy gauntlets that incur a massive arcane spell failure chance?
Mark of Justice would work, but only if the town has a cleric high enough to cast it.
Arcane spell failure does nothing to stop the school-granted and 0th level spell like abilities.
Why such a need to stop them? I mean, unless you're at very high levels (in which case the fighter can kill everyone with his manacles), their supernatural abilities aren't that impressive which their spells are denied. For example, sure, if you're a spellcaster whose hands are tied, and your mouth bound, you may still have your 1d6 +1/2 level supernatural energy ray (or higher level spell like ability), but you're already incredibly weakened, and the threat of death or severe beating by your captors is probably enough of a reason for most not to try anything funny.
But another question...how do you disarm a monk? "Wha..." you must be asking? Well, really. I supposed you could shackle a monk down, blindfold him, and what-not, but a monk can escape the bonds, break the chains, fight while blinded, and he can kill many guards and such with his bare hands, feet, elbows, face, and left butt-cheek!
Even taking away someone's holy symbol in a real game is kinda wonky, since many people probably wear holy symbols, or have them as tattoos, or engraved or adorning their armors. That's what makes 'dem spellcasters and monks scary. They're living weapons of mass-destruction. It's probably no wonder that many of them are distrusted or feared in many settings, because they could effectively be "armed" at all times.
But so is someone who's studied Karate, Judo, Taekwon-do, Kenpo, Mui-tai, or even boxing. You're a walking weapon. This might actually be a reason for most mundane people to carry a weapon or so in a fantasy world, 'cause some dude might be some crazy wizard who needs his head knocked in.
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As far as keeping a spell-caster subdued in a prisoner situation, beat the ever loving crap out of them (that is, nonlethal damage) to render them unconscious, then administer some tranquilizers (drow poison equivalent is 75gp, or 25gp to create with craft poison, and a creature is considered to willingly fail any saving throws if it is unconscious, IIRC). Keep them drugged.
Peace out, Game on.
Oh yeah, one more thing...
If the local guards / authorities / keepers of the peace cannot handle spell-casters using 0 level spells, as in your previous post, then they pretty much suck at being law enforcement (since 0 level spells generally deal 1d4 damage or less).
Peace out, Game on.
The problem is not about spellcasters who can use spells. It is not even with characters carrying weapons. It is about a law prohibiting the use of weapons.
At the entrance of the city, the watch requires all visitors to deposit their weapons in a chest.
After that, anybody seen intown with a weapon is subject to arrest by the guards, the weapon is confiscated and the violator gets a fine.
In case of tavern or street fights with weapons, or worse, duels, the law is more severe, with stronger fines and jail.
Of course, make any use of magic prohibited too.
In case of prisoners, heavy manacles and chains are very useful.
Make guards check the cells regulary.
For spell casters, the law requires them to drink a special elixir, which erases any spell in mind. It also disrupts spell-like abilities (Concentration DC20 + spell level). Dangerous prisoners must drink this several times a day. To make it affordable for the city, you can consider it is not magic but made by alchemists with plants or mushrooms.
Disarm spellcasters? I find a big sharp axe removes arms rather well.
There's also a really great 5th level spell in DLCS (ToHS IIRC) called Curse of the Magi. Hurts casters when they cast.
Or you could go with the harsh penalties for magics violating the rights of others ... like removal of tongues or hands. Just be sure your city guards are able to ID when someone is casting something.
Another old favorite is a crossbow bolt in the chest with a Silence spell cast on it. Aaahhh the classics.
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One of the reasons to force disarm people is the visual comfort of seeing unarmed people. It's not necessarily so that they won't do violence, but seeing an arsenal walking the streets would be a source of potential unrest with the populace. If you walked down the street and saw a dozen people toting machine guns and a bandolier of grenades, you'd get pretty nervous too.
Laws requiring disarming should also include a general non violence clause. You've got a fighter who can pick up a chair and beat the snot out of somebody just fine without his greatsword. A monk can drop most common townsfolk, and a spellcaster certainly can fry some poor schmuck.
It's up to the town to have preventative measures in place for if violence erupts. Forcing a weapons check is mostly a means of soothing the populace and removing the most accessible means of causing a disruption.
That and there are an awful lot more people who can cause a problem with a weapon, than there are who can be troublesome without.
Straight jacket and a ball-gag...
Or
Full helm with "blind visor"? - apart from the spell failure % and Perception skill penalties aside, many spellcasters [and characters generally]are waaayy less effective in what they do when blinded..
Or
Failing all else hold their familiar or focus item over a flame for a couple of rounds... betcha they'll play nice after that - heheh.
All of these are great suggestions. The only slight flaw is the inherently paranoid nature of adventurers.
"You want me to put my +3 sword of funkiness in a box so you can look after it!!!! AND all my other weapons!!!! You can kiss my...."
"You say this elixir will temporarily negate my ability to cast magic. Why would you want me to do that?What are you up to? It's a TRAAAAP"
"You want to take my spellbook! Do you know how much that is worth? How many times I've risked death for to get components? Never"
"No one touches my holy symbol but me, got it."
Most parties, unless they have a bag of holding, will say screw this. We're going to look for a wilderness adventure.
I think it is probably just as easier to rely on harsh penalties than actual removal of items. Blatant spell-use unless by a licenced practitioner punishable by (insert horrible fate here).
I think Bards are actually a bigger problem because people want them to perform and they can make perform part of their act. They are probably even encouraged to do this.
Realistically though, almost any group of adventurers are going to be a match for most town militias and should be. Putting drunks in a cell is a lot easier than fighting for your life against monsters.
In Australia for prisoners they used to have these big heavy flat leather gloves to stop players er um self-gratifying themselves. It would hamper most mages and even monks would struggle with their hands chained to their feet behind their backs.
How about a item of feeblemind? Personally I am partial to the gloves and a metal bucket on their head. Every time they start to mutter something just whack it with a stick. Although ball-gag and gimp-suit might work.
Alternatively, have all the guards be golems or zombies. That should take care of those annoying charm spells. It is really only a problem with those unlawful types.
If you have the spell-user handy how about a geas, a charm person spell or something similar?
Alternatively, make a section of town only for adventurers and those who support them. If they want to vvisit the rest of town it is their choice about what they do with their weapons and things.
While regular D&D had this problem as well, I think Pathfinder with all the spell like abilities have made it more difficult. basically the question is: how do you "disarm" spellcasters?
So imagine a scenario where the party gets captured or wants to enter a peaceful town that does not allow weapons. All the fighter types have to check their swords and bows and other weapons, but what do you do with spellcasters? Taking away their holy symbols, spell books, and component pouches is a start, but you still have those spontaneous casters and at will abilities to worry about. Any ideas?
The use of harmful magic is a capital offence in most of the cities in my world. The ones with effective laws anyway. Death, without resurrection, is off putting for most PCs. Generally the authorities have spellcasters of their own and will employ whatever means are necesssary to track down offenders. My main city has a section, Sorceror's Isle (named that looong before there was a sorceror class), where the magically inclined can relax, let their hair down, settle problems with magical duels, and generally not worry too much about the executioner's sword...
Some reasonable level of law enforcement generally takes care of most issues of this type, unless of course the PCs are just too powerful for the local authorities to deal with. In which case they should hire some "specialists" to deal with it :)
You can't disarm the wizard, cleric, or sorceror anymore than you can disarm the Monk.
The "peace bonding" and such is only as good as the people being requested to keep the peace.
Generally, it's more the mental idea of "we promised to be good" than an actual literal prevention of doing violence that should stop the PC's. And if the PC's (or NPC's) have the reputation of NOT honoring such agreements, rules, or laws, then they'll be denied access to the town. Or imprisoned, or whatever.
Peace-bonding reminds them they promised to be good. It doesn't stop them from unbinding the swords 5 minutes later, or from pulling daggers from their packs and harming people anyway.
-S
You can't disarm the wizard, cleric, or sorceror anymore than you can disarm the Monk.
The "peace bonding" and such is only as good as the people being requested to keep the peace.
Generally, it's more the mental idea of "we promised to be good" than an actual literal prevention of doing violence that should stop the PC's. And if the PC's (or NPC's) have the reputation of NOT honoring such agreements, rules, or laws, then they'll be denied access to the town. Or imprisoned, or whatever.
Peace-bonding reminds them they promised to be good. It doesn't stop them from unbinding the swords 5 minutes later, or from pulling daggers from their packs and harming people anyway.
-S
What you said Selgard :) You have to remember, these are functioning societies. They've delt with rogue (not the class...) spellcasters and others before. Spend some time on the laws, law enforcement and punishment in your society. Think through the likely abuses and be prepared to deal with it. Not just the official response either. My Assassins and Thieves Guilds sell protection (cue jokes about "life insurance"). Woe betide the adventurer who crosses them. My merchants use 3 lock boxes (chests with three locks which must be opened in sequence) for valuables, take precautions (and probably pay protection to the Guild). I have a watch who patrol (better or worse by district), courts and punsihment. It takes care of some stupidity when PCs do things just to see if they can. Besides it's funny to watch their faces when the judge says "300 gold or 30 days hard labor in the sewers" :D
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One of the cities I sent some PC's to strapped their wizard down at the bicep (so they could still bend their elbows to eat, drink, but not cast spells)and took their spellbooks (which they got back as they left town, sort of a "coat check thing"). But if that doesn't work, I just ripped off what they do in Baldur's Gate 2 and make it REALLY expensive (physically and financially) to get caught casting spells in town.
The motivation behind is to help maintain a sense of immersion in the game world. It just makes sense (and is historically accurate) for people to be disarmed by the authorities when entering a town. I wonder if there are any historical examples of purported spellcasters being "disarmed" through some kind of superstitious means (in areas and times where they weren't just arrested and killed that is).
As DM, I want the players to think of new creative ways of handling encounters without using the weapons they've grown used to. (Those who took the Razor Sharp Chair Leg feat will be glad.)
Yes, I know the party's rogue is going to hide a dagger up his bum and the monk is going to gladly just declare that he carries no weapons and pass through. But I still want to make it as hard for them as possible. The idea is that it is supposed to be fun to find a way around it.
What I came up with so far is an anti-magic bracelet with a lock that the guards keep a key to. I'm hoping to come up with a less fantastic solution though.
The motivation behind is to help maintain a sense of immersion in the game world. It just makes sense (and is historically accurate) for people to be disarmed by the authorities when entering a town. I wonder if there are any historical examples of purported spellcasters being "disarmed" through some kind of superstitious means (in areas and times where they weren't just arrested and killed that is).
As DM, I want the players to think of new creative ways of handling encounters without using the weapons they've grown used to. (Those who took the Razor Sharp Chair Leg feat will be glad.)
Yes, I know the party's rogue is going to hide a dagger up his bum and the monk is going to gladly just declare that he carries no weapons and pass through. But I still want to make it as hard for them as possible. The idea is that it is supposed to be fun to find a way around it.
What I came up with so far is an anti-magic bracelet with a lock that the guards keep a key to. I'm hoping to come up with a less fantastic solution though.
Difficult to do without coming up with some artificial method like you've mentioned. Next thing you know the rogue will be picking the lock. Then we get into delayed blast fireball traps on the lock or something :) I still think arrest, incarceration, fines or some other punishment are probably the best way to go. It covers spell casters and non-spellcasters. Assuming they don't manage to end up killing anyone, after spending a few weeks cleaning sewers and forking out huge fines to get out of the truly ugly local jail most players can restrain themselves. And a good execution is a learning experience if someone does get really stupid. Probably the only case where capital punishment teaches the perpetrator (or at least the PC) anything... It's worked in my game anyway. The fun comes in running around the city and either 1). Getting by without breaking the law ("but he's got a knife!") or 2). Trying to get away with it ("let's hide in the sewers!").
The motivation behind is to help maintain a sense of immersion in the game world. It just makes sense (and is historically accurate) for people to be disarmed by the authorities when entering a town. I wonder if there are any historical examples of purported spellcasters being "disarmed" through some kind of superstitious means (in areas and times where they weren't just arrested and killed that is).
I'm not sure it really helps with immersion. The comparison to historic times is marginal at best. Magic throws the whole concept into chaos. When confronted with a situation like this the party simply loads all their weapons into the bag of holding and brings out the crappy disposable longsword and hands that over to the city guard. Once they are out of site of the gate then they will bring out the appropriate weaponry.
Even without a bag of holding, there are dozens of ways people can smuggle weapons in. Characters know this and there is no way they would submit to this knowing that their enemies would ignore those same controls.
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As an alternative, and running with the bracelet idea...
What if the town itself were situated on a node, or some other natural convergence that made spellcasting either impossible or very uncomfortable to manage. Something like spells have an equal effect upon the caster as they do upon the target or some such.
Citizens of the town who are registered can be issued a bracelet or something that is in tune with the magic disturbance effect, thus enabling their spells to function properly.
It still gets into the realm of the fantastic, but this is fantasy after all.
Arcane equivalent to 'peace ties', in one game it was a simple ink that was used to temperately tattoo patterns on their hands and lips that would turn from red to black with magic use.
If you want to keep them locked up in jail just drug them below 10, they can still function but no spell casting ^_^
have you thought of something simple like a ribbon that dissolves if any violence is done by these people. Worn in a very open space like finger or wrist. Yes it doesn't stop the use of these powers but if the challenge is to do the adventure with out violence or to find a way to fake that they still have these on. Maybe they only fail if spells are cast. Possible changes colour like litmus paper and when people leave they are checked to see if they have and how much and possible what type and fined/charged accordingly. Players certainly can get get around this and simple skip town but law abiding players might actually keep to this. Its a thought?
Understand how various spells interact with the Antimagic spell and other spells in your campaign.
Go first.
Antimagic torcs are nice for personal protection for non casters.
Magic items or weapons that can cast antimagic as a spell are nice.
Antimagic cast on your familiar can do the trick (takes more time to have the familiar sneak up on the spellcaster)
Original spell research to tweak the Antimagic spell to change the area from you to an object like a missile weapon is nice.
Gandalf: "Eh? Oh. No, you would not part an old man from his walking stick?"
Gandalf: "Eh? Oh. No, you would not part an old man from his walking stick?"
That scene in the movie was good, but it's too bad that they didn't recreate the entire scene from the book. All of them except Gandalf surrounded their weapons but not before giving a long speech about the weapon's importance, name, and history. So when they got to Gandalf, and he gave his "walking stick" line, the guards were more inclined to believe it since they didn't want to have to go through another long speech.
Create shock collars powered by ambient magic: If you start casting a spell, the sudden charge of magic causes it to shock you, forcing a Concentration check.
You could have spellcasters wear elaborate ceremonial robes which gave them a spell failure chance... but them they'd just disrobe and you're back to that crime and punishment thing...
Alternatively there's the possibility of a spell that temporarily stops someone from using magic. No. Just think about the abuse... makes me shudder... and it would have to be very high level I'd think. A charm causing them to forget when they concentrate on doing a spell... evil thoughts. God forbid any PC get ahold of this... must stop this train of thought... a ritual requiring magical goodies so it couldn't be abused on the fly.
Damn single mindedness :D
As I recall the Antimagic Torc was 25,000 gp market and usable 1/day. Prorate that down to 1/10 days like the mechanic for Gates/Portals and now you have a relatively inexpensive 2,500 gp permanent magic item capable of casting Anti Magic 1/Ride (10 days).