While I didn't like the art somuch I dhave known perky sadists.
Is that of the "Hey, I'm having fun pulling wings off butterflies..."tee-hee" kind?" Or are we talking more of "you've been a naughty-boy...wink-wink kind?"
For some reason, the impression I get is the "flight attendant from hell" with a touch bloody misery mixed when it comes to Laori.
**2nd page tops** Yay!
I think I qualify as a lay follower now.
I bet Calistria has a lot of them: Only into the religion to get laid. :D
if I were in Golarion, I think I just might have a soft spot for his religion
Soft spot? Very bad in that religion...
Then you're a felon! Yay!
And if we are a fan of doing torturous things to unwilling subjects?
Really? For that? I mean, where's the fun in willing subjects?
How goes that joke:
Masochist: "Hit me! Please hit me!"
Sadist: "NO! ]>"
Are you a felon if you don't do torturous things to willing subjects? ;-)
KaeYoss, you never cease to amuse!
Though do note that my profile now lists Calistria and Zon-Kuthon as patron deities.
Much of the same scenario has gone through my head too...for the sadist and the masochist...
Flight Attendant from Hell...LOL! I pretty much though Valley Girl Sado-masochist.
"I am going to whip you until you coat the floor in blood!" says the mysterious masked man.
"Like, okay!" Laori says with a smile and head bob. "So when is my turn?"
I've had a song for Laori Vaus to sing flitting around in my head all day.
I'll have to compose it tomorrow when I have time and the warewithal to do so.
A cheerful song about death, blood, torture and pain.
Zon-Kuthon seems built for BoVD. :)
Bah. Pathfinder is built for mature audiences. While PG13 is about as far as we want to go rating wise, we're not going to shy away from showing a little gore, demon birth, or ogre cleavage every now and then. We don't have any interest in doing gore and grotesquery out of sheer gratuitousness, but rather for coolness sake when a story, character, or in this case, a deity, warrants it.
I'm only saying "Bah" here because I feel like BoVD does sick and scary in an attempt to capitalize on shock value and edginess. We made Zon-Kuthon sick and twisted, though, because that's an element we want in our world and it's a specific face of evil... not because we wanta get folks all riled up.
Now again, it doesn't sound like anyone's getting riled up, which I think speaks to how Awesome our readership is, but I just wanted to throw the design philosophy out there.
Oh I wasn't implying that you were trying to exploit anything. I'm just saying, if there ever was a god/goddess that we want to use the BoVD with, Zon-Kuthon seems to be the one.
Oh, hey man, I gotcha, no worries and I agree. I just wanted to throw the thoughts behind ZK out there... it seemed relevant in the deep AM hours last night. :P
I regret reading this thread. I now know WAY too much about other Paizonian's private habits. I especially didn't need to know what Mr. Morris wanted to do with Rachael Ray.
Zon-Kuthon seems built for BoVD. :)Bah. Pathfinder is built for mature audiences. While PG13 is about as far as we want to go rating wise, we're not going to shy away from showing a little gore, demon birth, or ogre cleavage every now and then. We don't have any interest in doing gore and grotesquery out of sheer gratuitousness, but rather for coolness sake when a story, character, or in this case, a deity, warrants it.
I'm only saying "Bah" here because I feel like BoVD does sick and scary in an attempt to capitalize on shock value and edginess. We made Zon-Kuthon sick and twisted, though, because that's an element we want in our world and it's a specific face of evil... not because we wanta get folks all riled up.
Now again, it doesn't sound like anyone's getting riled up, which I think speaks to how Awesome our readership is, but I just wanted to throw the design philosophy out there.
What we really need though is a race of people who are . . . mostly male, very short (just "three apples tall"), with blue skin, white trousers with a hole for their short tails, white hat in the style of a Phrygian cap, and sometimes some additional accessory that identifies their personality.
What we really need though is a race of people who are . . . mostly male, very short (just "three apples tall"), with blue skin, white trousers with a hole for their short tails, white hat in the style of a Phrygian cap, and sometimes some additional accessory that identifies their personality.
Arctic dwarves?
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Zon-Kuthon seems built for BoVD. :)Bah. Pathfinder is built for mature audiences. While PG13 is about as far as we want to go rating wise, we're not going to shy away from showing a little gore, demon birth, or ogre cleavage every now and then.
Please, for the love of all the gods, no ogre cleavage.
Please, for the love of all the gods, no ogre cleavage.
Huh... weird. All of our market research SCREAMED0 that ogre cleavage was exactly what the audience wanted. Are you sure? It seemed to go over really well in PF #3? I mean, if you're really really sure, we're going to have to rethink last week's art order for the Pathfinder: Ogres and Underthangs, 2009 Calendar.
This specifically came to mind when thinking of Laori Vaus...and the interesting image of 'cute evil'. Leave it to Richard Pett.
Sung to 'God rest ye merry Gentlemen'
First, I didn't try to compose this, it just popped into my head. It actually took me a little while to realize what song it was I had set it to. I am seriously disturbed. Good thing my wife likes me that way.
Your blood and tears
don't fret my dears
Your pain is for our gain!
Reveal your sins
and flay the skins
Your life we take away!
Your bones we crack
The rod will smack
Your teeth we break away!
For all our sendings are
sufferin' and pain
sufferin' and pain
All our sendings are
sufferin' and pain...
Rip out the nail
the sweat in pails
until your roastings done!
Points pierce the flesh
now eat it fresh
Feast on you just for fun!
We let the pain
drive us insane
until it becomes joy!
Its time to play
Don't scream today
Now that your just my toy!
For all our sendings are
sufferin' and pain
sufferin' and pain
All our sendings are
sufferin' and pain.....
Cheers folks! Horray for evil!
I appear to have killed the thread...at least until Yoda8MyHead gets here and praises my little song.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I appear to have killed the thread...at least until Yoda8MyHead gets here and praises my little song.
You summoned, sir? I love it! And I'm not just saying that because you expect me to. Whenever I throw ZK and his followers at my PCs, either in CotCT (which I'm not running at the moment) or otherwise, I will most certainly let them listen to this as they are torn to shreds slowly and in front of a large crowd of leather-clad sadists. Mwa ha ha ha!
Wow... just wow. Well done Yasha. I look forward to your Christmas compilation and the Calistria themed "Carol of the Bells."
I'm not sure you really do...await such a thing...
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I finally finished PF 11 by reading the Zon-Kuthon article this morning. Geeze, that's some wildly dark stuff. I have no problem with it as a description of an evil deity, but I do think it'll cause some problems for Curse of the Crimson Throne campaigns for those who play it as-written.
Almost every D&D adventuring party I've seen as a player and a DM has had a cleric of a good deity. In 3rd Edition/3.5, it's been common for them to have at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) for the bonus to turning, and they often have maxed out ranks to be able to identify and better combat undead.
Curse of the Crimson Throne SPOILERS follow; current or potential players, ye be warned.
So, how would you--by whom I mean Joshua, Sean, and Wes since they've joined in here, or other CotCT DMs--suggest dealing with these issues of, "Hm, I think we'll pass on partnering with the folks who dismember people, keep them alive, and violate and defile them at a whim," that are likely to come up?
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** spoiler omitted **
I think there's a parable that can be worked into the setting about how sometimes even good has to hold its breath and work alongside evil in order to prevent even greater evil coming to pass, namely the story of how all the gods, including Asmodeus, ganged up on Rovagug to keep him from wrecking the world. Although good should certainly avoid making a regular thing of it or getting complacent about such arrangements, it helps to instill some leeway, something paladins especially need.(and something GMs should probably keep in mind before they push that fall button)
I'm not sure what to suggest for this specific issue beyond that and what was presented in the source material:
Of course your players will know there has to be more to it than that, and the Zon-Kuthonites know that they know. It's getting the players to know that they know that they know and asking themselves what would make the Brotherhood of Bones risk approaching them with such an arrangement that's the trick, I think. If they can convince the players, whether they're trying or not, that they're scared of something worse than themselves, it'll go a long way towards convincing them to accept their help.
And might I add that Zon-Kuthon freaks me the hell out.
I finally finished PF 11 by reading the Zon-Kuthon article this morning. Geeze, that's some wildly dark stuff. I have no problem with it as a description of an evil deity, but I do think it'll cause some problems for Curse of the Crimson Throne campaigns for those who play it as-written.
. . . .
** spoiler omitted **
It will be quite some time before I run this, probably a year since we're not done with Hook Mountain yet. I think with my group timing will be everything.
It kind of reminds me of an old cold war spy movie where the hero has to join forces with a KGB agent to bring down a common enemy. It has the potential to be corny, but it has some really fun elements.
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Adding onto that parable example: You could actually have a priest of Asmodeus telling that story publicly(colored to favor Asmodeus of course). If the PCs ask a priest of another god about it, they could get a reluctant affirmation of that tale as told in their own holy texts(of course they would be compelled to correct some details).
You might even get a priest at the Pantheon of Many temple to try and sell the PCs on the notion that all the gods have their place and purpose in the great scheme of things. PCs that manage to do heavy research on Achaecek might be confronted with that very notion.
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I think there's a parable that can be worked into the setting about how sometimes even good has to hold its breath and work alongside evil in order to prevent even greater evil coming to pass, namely the story of how all the gods, including Asmodeus, ganged up on Rovagug to keep him from wrecking the world. Although good should certainly avoid making a regular thing of it or getting complacent about such arrangements, it helps to instill some leeway, something paladins especially need.(and something GMs should probably keep in mind before they push that fall button)
I really like the Rovagug angle. Until the player's character unfortunately had to relocate for a new job, I was in a real pickle: there was a paladin of Shelyn in the party! Yikes.
It kind of reminds me of an old cold war spy movie where the hero has to join forces with a KGB agent to bring down a common enemy. It has the potential to be corny, but it has some really fun elements.
"The Spy Who Loved Me" is my favorite Bond movie, in spite of that very same corny premise.
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I really like the Rovagug angle.
The story is detailed a bit under Rovagug's deity entry in the Gazetteer. It'll probably be further fleshed out in the Gods and Magic book, considering that he's one of the Big Ones and that story sounded like a turning point in the history of the gods.
Until the player's character unfortunately had to relocate for a new job, I was in a real pickle: there was a paladin of Shelyn in the party!
Awkwaaaaaaaaard.
Even moreso than Heironeous/Hextor clergy get-togethers. At least neither of those gods keeps "forgetting" to return the other's stuff they "borrowed".
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I think there's a parable that can be worked into the setting about how sometimes even good has to hold its breath and work alongside evil in order to prevent even greater evil coming to pass, namely the story of how all the gods, including Asmodeus, ganged up on Rovagug to keep him from wrecking the world.
Filthy propaganda spun by decadent spoiled godlings who don't want to give up a toy even when it's broken. Rovagug's role is to end flawed universes so that more perfect ones can live, and the so-called gods in their so-called goodness threw him into prison. Where is the goodness in that?!
Filthy propaganda spun by decadent spoiled godlings who don't want to give up a toy even when it's broken. Rovagug's role is to end flawed universes so that more perfect ones can live, and the so-called gods in their so-called goodness threw him into prison. Where is the goodness in that?!
If Mr. Rovagug has any legitimate complaints about the universe he can file them in an orderly fashion and wait for official rulings like everyone else.
Everyone that matters, that is.
Huh... weird. All of our market research SCREAMED0 that ogre cleavage was exactly what the audience wanted. Are you sure?
Let me guess, your focus group consisted of the address
"Shrek, in that swamp hole, magic kingdom."
I don't want to tell you guys how to do your jobs, but a bit more racial, and, more importantly, species... istic? speciessy? well, whatever, diversity to do with species would be okay. Not to mention cultural, and people of different ages (I mean 20-year-olds and 40-year-olds and so on, not "Age of Enthronement, Age of Anguish", and so on.
we're going to have to rethink last week's art order for the Pathfinder: Ogres and Underthangs, 2009 Calendar.
Please do. The MM3.5 double page with the Ogre on one page and the Nymph on the other was a bad enough contrast. I might suggest (again) a Sorceresses and Smallclothes calendar, starring Seoni. Or Rogues and Ruching with Merisiel. Barbarians and Bathing Suits can work, too, if you be insistent on her putting away the sword.
I think the comparison to the "American agent has to team up with the KGB agent" is apt.
Just because you're good doesn't give you the right to run around killing everyone you detect as evil. Or everyone who worships an evil god, for that matter ... you'd have to kill a big chunk of any caravan visiting from Cheliax. Until you catch them doing something evil, you can't whack them.
And while you can take the moral high ground and say, "I refuse to associate with this person because I know they worship an evil god," you're still drawing a vague line and defining your comfort level arbitrarily. Do you not associate with followers of ZK? What about followers of Asmodeus? What about people from Cheliax who don't necessarily worship Asmodeus but tolerate his worship in their homeland? What about people from Cheliax who don't worship Asmodeus but you know their parents and siblings do? Drawing lines in the sand is all well and good .. until innocents start dying because you refuse to work with Those Bad People who haven't actually done anything bad, you just know they're part of a Bad group.
And just because someone is part of a Bad group doesn't mean they can't have redeeming qualities. And it doesn't mean they necessarily do Bad things just because they're part of that group that you're so broadly painting as Bad.
I'm sure you could think of real world examples of groups that have people that do bad things but not everyone in those groups does those things. Say, political parties, or religions, or vegan activists, or whatever. Cutting yourself off from these people means (1) you're going to have very few people around you because you're only going to accept people who think like you do, (2) you're never going to grow as a person if you don't expose yourself to different opinions and formulate ideas about why you agree or disagree with them, and (3) you're never going to change a Bad person's mind if you never give them the opportunity to see what it's like being a person who isn't Bad.
When you're good, it's easy to draw those lines ... but not so easy to ignore the consequences that those lines create.
Just because you're good doesn't give you the right to run around killing everyone you detect as evil. Or everyone who worships an evil god, for that matter ... you'd have to kill a big chunk of any caravan visiting from Cheliax. Until you catch them doing something evil, you can't whack them.
I know. You know. A handful other people might know, too. But I swear that I haven't met any of them.
I have a request for the final version of PRPG. Put what you wrote there into the book. In bold print. Red letters. Biggest font you can use. If this adds 7 more pages to the book, so be it. And put it on the cover. And wrap the book up, and write this on the wrapping, with a huge ATTENTION! READ BEFORE OPENING. Put in some legal text that people who don't read it will be prosecuted, put before a shooting detail, and summarily executed. Broadcast the execution of the first 20 or so people who are found guilty, to show everyone that you mean it.
Maybe then some people will realise that the lawful stuff they're talking about all the time, especially when they play paladins, apply to themselves and their characters as well. I don't have much hope, but it's worth a try.
;-)
And while you can take the moral high ground and say, "I refuse to associate with this person because I know they worship an evil god," you're still drawing a vague line and defining your comfort level arbitrarily. Do you not associate with followers of ZK? What about followers of Asmodeus? What about people from Cheliax who don't necessarily worship Asmodeus but tolerate his worship in their homeland? What about people from Cheliax who don't worship Asmodeus but you know their parents and siblings do? Drawing lines in the sand is all well and good .. until innocents start dying because you refuse to work with Those Bad People who haven't actually done anything bad, you just know they're part of a Bad group.
The usual solution I see is "I use detect evil". Everything that detects is attacked and killed. Some people really do play their paladins like an automated defense turret.
I'm actually this short of banning paladins for certain people in my groups...
Part of the problem is the associates part in the 3.5 paladin class. The bit about "they won't associate with people they know are evil." I think cutting that would help a lot.
I'm sure you could think of real world examples of groups that have people that do bad things but not everyone in those groups does those things. Say, political parties, or religions, or vegan activists, or whatever.
Postal workers. Just kidding. They're all evil ;-)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hi, guys. I'm going to argue against the popular swell of opinions here. And I'm going to pick on Sean, because he's articulated very clearly the position I'd like to dispute.
I think the comparison to the "American agent has to team up with the KGB agent" is apt.
It would be, if (a) there weren't willful gods involved in the D&D world, and (b) there weren't ethos issues as well. Operatives from the CIA and the KGB work for worldy powers, striving for political gains. I can see a LN (good-leaning) Andoran agent working alongside a LN (evil-inclined) Cheliaxian agent. That's one thing.
Clerics of Iomedae and Norgorber working side-by-side is something else. That's either allowed by the deities in question, or else it's not.
Just because you're good doesn't give you the right to run around killing everyone you detect as evil. Or everyone who worships an evil god, for that matter ... you'd have to kill a big chunk of any caravan visiting from Cheliax. Until you catch them doing something evil, you can't whack them.
Or catch them having done something evil, or catch them planning to do evil. To insist otherwise absurd. ("Well, dang, there's cultists here who admit to torturing the missing children and bathing in their blood. But we didn't catch them doing it, so, shucks, hope our timing is better next time.") The whole of the "Rise of the Runelords" campaign is to kill somebody before he gets the chance to do something evil.
Which raises the question, how high can someone rise in Zon-Kuthon's church, without committing some atrocity. At some point, just being a Zon-Kuthon patriarch is an admission of frequent, severe depredations.
And while you can take the moral high ground and say, "I refuse to associate with this person because I know they worship an evil god," you're still drawing a vague line and defining your comfort level arbitrarily.
Sean, you're not talking about somebody who honors an evil god, or tithes to slavery benevolence societies, or what-have-you. You're talking about someone who literally worships an evil power, who actively works towards furthering the Bad Guys' power base on the material realm. They're trying to bring their god's will to pass, which is guaranteed to make life worse for people.
Part of the issue might be the players' remembering Biblical injunctions forbidding the Israelites to tolerate pagans to live in their midsts, or permit Amelekites to go about their business, or suffer witches to live. And that has little part in a D&D universe. We celebrate diversity.
But worshipping Lamashtu, being devoted to her squamous ways, isn't just different, it's really bad. It cannot fail to lead to bad results. It's planning to do evil.
-+--+--+--+-
Taking the moral high ground is the essence of heroism.
"I refuse to do evil, even though it would mean easy profits."
"I refuse to join forces with evil, even though doing so might benefit my loved ones."
"I refuse to turn a blind eye to evil, even though it seems at this moment that there's no other way to save my town."
I am defenseless. Take your weapon and strike me down with all your hatred.
Drawing lines in the sand is all well and good .. until innocents start dying...
This is a rich, complicated moral issue. Should you lie to the Gestapo officer in order to save the Jew hiding in your bedroom? Immanuel Kant, probably the phlosopher that paladins would quote most heavily, says no. And even less so, should you join forces with evil, to suit your own long-term goals.
Annikin Skywalker willingly joins forces with, and finally succumbs to, evil in order to save his beloved. A generation later, underneath the Cloud City, Luke lets himself fall to almost certain death rather than clasp the hand of evil and save himself.
-+--+--+--+-
I am not saying that "dealing with a lesser evil" is morally indefensible. It works for some characters; probably most characters. "Savage Tide" was a rollicking Adventure Path that doesn't get far if the party refuses to deal with "lesser evils".
But I want to defend the position that "the moral high ground" is also a legitimate position. It's not "Lawful Stupid". If your PC understands that she has a lot to lose if she stays true to her virtues, and she does so anyways, that's not stupid; it's courageous.
-+--+--+--+-
The issue in Golarion's case can be resolved neatly, I think, because the in-world arbiters of ethical devotion, the courts of heaven and hell, are intelligent gods who communicate with their followers.
If the great powers Iomedae and Norgorber get along, and they expect their priests to get along, then, there you go: people get along. If they are actively opposed to one another, and send their priests to foil each other's plans, then, again, everybody understands their duties.
[gross and uncalled for]
HARD AS OAK!
[/gross and uncalled for]
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What's interesting about the 'good guys working with bad guys' thing is that the *gods* of those alignments have worked together in the past. They may have radically different ethos, but, when Zon-Kuthon was causing problems, Asmodeus was right there, shoulder to shoulder with the 'good gods,' dealing with the problem.
People who play Paladins badly to the contrary, good does not equal stupid.
People who play psychos to the contrary, evil isn't stupid either...
HARD AS OAK!
Hard as O. A. K., perhaps?
