I want to start by saying how great and rich the new Pathfinder material is to read. It made me happy to see that we had an alternative to 4e. The fact that Pathfinder has guys like Sean Reynolds and Monte Cooke and the rest of the crew on board is like having a D&D Pantheon at our fingertips. I can't tell you how monumental this is.
But...
The fact that Pathfinder is going to use the 3.5 rules at Gencon after having us read the free download and NEW rule set is really pulling the rug out from under the gamers who are clamoring to play "3.75". Its like having the go-go dancer not do the reveal if you get my drift. A real tease.
So with Pathfinder at Gencon we get to pick a faction? And now that is supposed to quench the thirst of the player? After reading all of the incredibly juicy stuff about the new race and class upgrades we get to go back to the stone ages with 3.5. Not a good marketing strategy.
What will keep folks from playing Living Forgotten Realms or even 4e? At least with Living FR they can use more than the 3 core books to make an intricate character. Don't get me wrong... I am not a mechanic when it comes to playing D&D... I adore a strong character concept and back story. But Pathfinder is going to lose a lot of the "mechanics gamers" to the other D&D options at the Con.
Marketing wise you need to consider using the new rules in your Campaign Standards for Gencon so that you don't lose the great momentum you have generated.
Right now showing us this great tease and then telling us to go "back in time to the stone ages" is really disappointing. You show us the ultimate sexy setting/rule set then tell us... "Noooo you can look but don't touch"!
Bad move Pathfinder.
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I feel you on this - I'm considering starting an extra bi-weekly game to launch the third Adventure Path. I'm also interested in getting involved in the Pathfinder Society. I'll run my own game in Pathfinder RPG of course, but it would be nice to have the path and any events I manage to do be designed for PFRPG.
On the other hand, there probably can't be a better test of backwards compatibility of New System to Old Material (as opposed to the reverse with those still running 3.5 next year, running a PFRPG Adventure Path).
I'm eager for everything to be done, but cutting short the Alpha/Beta period would be shorting the whole fandom the chance to make Pathfinder as good as it can possibly be.
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I agree with the original poster. Making us go to 3.5 without at least some adoption of the new ruleset is bad. I don't want to play 3.5, I want to play Pathfinder. While I understand that Pathfinder isn't finished, Paizo can at least release some Campaign Standards with the races and classes--at least something!
Is not the Beta softcover for sale at Gencon? Doesn't this sort of defeat the purpose?
I'm in agreement as well. What's the point of the Pathfinder Society if it isn't to play Pathfinder? What better playtest could there be than thousands of Pathfinder regulars trying the new rules out? Even worse, we'd only have the 3.5 core rules available without any of the non-open WotC supplements.
I'm with the OP, Paizo, you gave us the sexy for 3.5 in the form of the Alphas and the upcoming Beta but now you're taking it away.
C'mon, Nick, bring the sexy back!
Director of Game Design
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Hey there Everybody,
As the designer of the Pathfinder RPG and an someone who is experienced with the organized play environment, the last thing you want is the game rules changing underneath you frequently. The Pathfinder RPG is still a work in progress, and I for one, do not want the tinkering with the system to harm the organized play setting.
I know you all wan to play with the new toys, and trust me when I say that I want you to play with them too, but the OP needs a more stable footing.
Hope that helps explain it all...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason... I completely understand the reasoning but I am not sure it sticks completely. Please don't take that as a swipe because its not. I just mean, that we have a situation here where you can capitalize on a growing momentum and a ground swell of support for Pathfinder. Its kind of like getting conservative at the last minute and 4e will have all of the hype.
You gave an excuse for why not to play the new rules but I am not sure thats a good reason not to do it.
Your book will be premiering there and we will only have the 3.5 rules to fall back on. Just not good marketing.
So what if its in its beta form? Isnt this the best way to play test? Furthermore do you guys all want 4e to steal your thunder? I certainly do not.
I truly think that at the very least incorporating some new elements and meeting the players half way would be a step in the right direction.
Just my 2 pence.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I have to agree with Jason on this. I LOVE the new rule system, and am playing it in my home campaign now. However, not only don't you want the system changing during an organized play season, but you don't want to give new players too much to digest at once. While the whole Paizo online community is well aware of the Pathfinder system, has downloaded alpha 3 times and plays and tinkers with the rules, the vast majority of the gaming public hasn't been exposed to the whole PRPG concept, much less the rules.
There are still people wandering over to the Paizo boards for the first time saying how great it is that they discovered the PRPG, and there's many many more who haven't yet. To expect them to joint he society for organized play and learn a new rule set at the same time is a lot to ask for.
Once the society is up and running for season 0 (and has all of its organizational kinks worked out), then the final Pathfinder RPG will be out at the same time. Both the RPG and the society will be great platforms to cross market the other, as well as each will have a full year to market themselves through other channels. Then, when both are ready to hit the ground running at full speed is the right time to integrate them.
Sure, it would be great to use Alpha (or Beta) at Gen Con for the society events, but I'd rather see both succeed in the long term, instead of trying to rush anything that would hurt either of them. The last thing anyone wants is to have a brand new society member play using beta rules at Gen Con, find something that's not quite 100% done, and decide the system sucks, since they're not as likely to understand that the rule system isn't complete yet and has additional changes coming (which will hopefully fix whatever it was that didn't work quite right for them.)
There is already too much arguing over rules at conventions. Using an alpha or beta rules-set in an Organized Play even would almost certainly lead to some sour memories that would eclipse some people's experiences.
I am certain that there will be Pathfinder events at the Con, but in my opinion, Organized Play is not the place for it until there is a well tested rule set.
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The products published by PAIZO are of the highest quality in the industry. As such, they should not be founded on unstable footing. PRPG honors the traditions of 3.5, so playing 3.5 for a year, or playtesting the beta PRPG throughout the year should be very enjoyable - and yes, in a manner of speaking the Beta really is going to be t!ts, that is, the big reveal. And based on what we've seen already, I'm sure she will satisfy until the final RPG is published in '09.
That said, let's enjoy our ability to watch the Beta shift and sway as it gets finely tuned into the game we all want to play. There has never been an opportunity quite like this before, and we have an historic chance to get things abundantly right before PAIZO products make use of the refined PRPG rule set.
3.5 Never Dies
PRPG IS T!TS!
I know you all wan to play with the new toys, and trust me when I say that I want you to play with them too, but the OP needs a more stable footing.
...and by that he means "Organized Play," not "Original Poster."
: P
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Another factor to consider is that the Beta is just now heading to be printed, but the scenarios had to be completed by the writers a month ago. While the systems are compatible, it means that another level of editing/re-write would have to be involved, which increases the likelihood of errors creeping in, and decreases the quality of the adventures.
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I know you all wan to play with the new toys, and trust me when I say that I want you to play with them too, but the OP needs a more stable footing....and by that he means "Organized Play," not "Original Poster."
: P
Yeas, that took a second or two for me to process as well.
I am just happy they are offering organized play so that I can get involved with something that interests me and won't require decades of background information.
I certainly respect Jason's opinion but, at the same time, I'm not seeing it. Why can't the the first season of the Society be marketed as an extension of the playtest? I realize there are challenges there but certainly they can't be any greater than the challenge to publish Pathfinder in the first place? Paizo has done well by taking chances so far and this seems too conservative an approach.
Having used the Alphas since their release, I can't muster any enthusiasm for a 3.5 game based solely on the SRD. I'm disappointed too as I'm registered for all of the Pathfinder events at Gen Con and no longer see myself playing through them (or becoming part of the newly-forming NYC chapter of the Society)---the Chronicles is a great setting but it isn't great enough to make up for the loss of the extra hps, spells, and abilities that Jason himself has crafted.
I have seen hundreds of posts and spoken with dozens of players who had a bad experience during their first game of a new system and then refused to have anything to do with that new system.
I've spoken with people who had a character die in an opening battle of D&D and therefore hated D&D and refused to play it in any edition.
I've spoken with people who had obvious a+&!+** DMs and refused to play any games using whatever rulesystem the DMs were using.
I've spoken with people who were so angry that they couldn't have a specific piece of equipment (a mercury filled sword in the loudest case) that they refused to play in any games at a con.
Gamers are fickle enough that Paizo should be careful of overreaching with them. That first official taste will be a make-or-break for a lot of gamers and bad word of mouth travels a lot faster than good. I would rather Paizo go slow with the introduction and get it right than to rush it out and ruin their one shot at hooking a bunch of people.
Oh god oh god oh god, this is a disaster, this is terrible, this is the apocalypse for Paizo! They are shooting themselves in the foot with this like Wizards did when they announced that they weren't going to renew the contract for Dungeon and Dragon magazine, or like when they released 4th edition, or when they posted the GSL, or when they say anything about that digital stuff...
Because this is text no one can see me grinning.
Seriously, don't you think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill? I'd much rather see the PRPG and any Organized Play given the err on the side of caution treatment rather than the 'rush it and get it out like the oh so successful 3.0!' treatment. I would want things to be the best possible product ever. That and it's kind of the nature of Organized Play to be incredibly fickle about what rules they use (didn't the Living Grayhawk setting have one of the most painful stat point buy options ever?) so it only really makes sense to use the 3.5 rules set.
I'm one of the many gamers who can't afford to make it to a Con that's not in their home city or within driving distance (particularly considering I'm in Alaska) and I daresay I'm of a vast majority of gamers who don't attend Cons for financial reasons. I mean if I attended a con I might be a touch disappointed that the Organized Play was run with 3.5 rather than PRPG but considering PRPG isn't a finished product I would simply shrug, play the OP with a system I've played for years, and return to PRPG when I get home.
Maybe I'm just not as big on Organized Play (seeing as I find the strict adherence to rules and the crotch shot to character power painful to look at even as a GM. *shudder* less than 32 point buy system using 3.5 rules terrifies me, I feel like giving players a +1 weapon just to feel better about themselves) and that affects my judgment but I will say that Pathfinder, let alone the Pathfinder Society, has lost no sexiness for me. I'm considering starting a group here in Anchorage if I can get enough players together, hell, it's the first time I've been interested in OP seeing as I'm quite fond of the world in general, PRPG or no PRPG.
I don't want to sound like an ass (too late I imagine with the opening paragraph) but cut the guys at Paizo some slack.
It'd be great if PRPG was ready for this year's gencon, but it's not. And that's ok. There's always next year!
But there was another practical issue, and that's publishing timeframes. I had to submit PFS #8 in June in order to keep with the schedule. The brilliant folks who wrote the four PFS adventures premiering at GenCon had to get their's in even earlier. So for them to have used PFRPG, they would have been stuck with something still solidly Alpha. Disputed Alpha, most likely! Even my wave of writers would have been working with late Alpha at best.
So from where I'm sitting, the timing just didn't work right. Either that, or they aren't feeding Jason sufficiently pure crack. Or enough of it. One of the two. Who unchained that guy from his desk, anyway?
PS Starting 3.5 and then switching to 3.75 isn't really an option either, I'd think, because you don't want to jump horses mid season...er, did I just mix a metaphor? Damn. Getting coffee now...
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Chief Technical Officer
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Why can't the the first season of the Society be marketed as an extension of the playtest?
We don't *want* you playtesting in Pathfinder Society events—we want you playing! Playtesting, by it's very definition, is about trying to find the things that are broken. We *really* don't want people in an organized play environment focusing on the rules, and thinking about what's wrong with them. We want you focusing on the adventure you're playing, and the setting you're exploring, and the fun you're having. This year, that means using 3.5. Next year, that means using the Pathfinder RPG.
Why can't the the first season of the Society be marketed as an extension of the playtest?We don't *want* you playtesting in Pathfinder Society events—we want you playing! Playtesting, by it's very definition, is about trying to find the things that are broken. We *really* don't want people in an organized play environment focusing on the rules, and thinking about what's wrong with them. We want you focusing on the adventure you're playing, and the setting you're exploring, and the fun you're having. This year, that means using 3.5. Next year, that means using the Pathfinder RPG.
I get it, Vic! I get it!
I've been working on my 3.5 bard since yesterday. :)
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Chief Technical Officer
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I get it, Vic! I get it!
I've been working on my 3.5 bard since yesterday. :)
Woohoo! Glad you're still with us.
(Not to change the subject, but The Gamers: Dorkness Rising will completely change the way you view bards forever and ever. Make sure you catch it at Gen Con!)
Dang it...I was all ready to chime in and Vic beat me to it. I couldn't say it better. So I won't. Instead I'll just say "titties" cause I do that a lot. ;-)
Dang it...I was all ready to chime in and Vic beat me to it. I couldn't say it better. So I won't. Instead I'll just say "titties" cause I do that a lot. ;-)
Can we tie that word to a series of avatars, similar to the 5murf thing? :D
No.
Joshua, that picture combined with your response is just frickin' smurf.
<facepalm>
