For some reason this thread has gone the 'Yakity Sax' route! :)
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Besides, you're also blithely ignoring the amount of hatred spewed at anyone who doesn't like something about 4E. Personal attacks, condescention, etc, are the NORM for a lot of the posts here.. yet those are 'okay' by the standards presented because... they're '4E supporters'.
Please provide evidence of CWM spewing hatred. Evidence of a personal attack would suffice as well. A link to a post would be fine. Just post it here in this thread.
Here's his recent posts, that should help:
CWM Posts
Btw, here's yours:
vance Posts
Compare the tone of each.
Yeah, I dont see a lot of people who like 4th Edition leaping on people who dont like it for, well, whatever reason. Certainly, I dont recall CWM blatantly lying or attacking anyone, which you vance seem to be doing.
Besides, you're also blithely ignoring the amount of hatred spewed at anyone who doesn't like something about 4E. Personal attacks, condescention, etc, are the NORM for a lot of the posts here.. yet those are 'okay' by the standards presented because... they're '4E supporters'.Please provide evidence of CWM spewing hatred. Evidence of a personal attack would suffice as well. A link to a post would be fine. Just post it here in this thread.
Well, he did call for the death of all 3.5 firstborn and demand a plague of rabid lemurs. Here's a proof positive Linkie.
Please provide evidence of CWM spewing hatred. Evidence of a personal attack would suffice as well. A link to a post would be fine. Just post it here in this thread.Edit - No, forget it. Best not to go there.
Edit Again - Again, you're both dogpiling and proving my point MORE. Seriously, do you guys have to WIN that badly? You want to shoot my cats next? Sell my first-born into slavery? Exactly what are you trying to accomplish with this?
No, we just want proof. This is a forum. It should be INCREDIBLY EASY to do that, since the threads and posts arent going anywhere.
What YOU are doing is proving nothing and just dodging, and badly dodging, by claiming that first we want proof that CWM (who is normally a pretty okay person) is attacking people without any provocation.
Really, it seems that you're the one doing the attacking, and claiming that sure, now we just want the facts, but if you give us the facts, we'll want to kill your...cats? I'm not sure I follow that bizarre kind of "logical progression."
C'mon, you design games, after all! This should be cake.
C'mon, you design games, after all! This should be cake.THIS thread.. Post #1?
So it's only ok for you to insult and attack someone but if they try to defend themselves it's a ATTACK! Gotya.
BTW what games have you designed?
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C'mon, you design games, after all! This should be cake.THIS thread.. Post #1?
I reviewed Post #1 and it appears that you did the personal attack, and CWM is asking for assistance. So this doesn't seem to be a good example.
Do you have another, not related to this thread? Any will do. Somewhere that CWM acts as you are describing. Just one is ok.
Please provide evidence of CWM spewing hatred. Evidence of a personal attack would suffice as well. A link to a post would be fine. Just post it here in this thread.Edit Again Again - This VERY THREAD is would qualify as a personal attack on most boards, I would think. Certainly it was an encouragement to dogpile... a combination of baiting and trolling.
Edit Again - Again, you're both dogpiling and proving my point MORE. Seriously, do you guys have to WIN that badly? You want to shoot my cats next? Sell my first-born into slavery? Exactly what are you trying to accomplish with this?
You were being a jackass, you got called on in. No excuses, no drama, no dogpiling. The question is, are you a big enough person to admit it?
I know where I'd put my money.
As someone who is still fairly new here and doesn't have a horse in the race, so to speak, it seems clear to me that the initial post in this thread is evidence than it was nothing more than an attempt to lead to exactly what has happened here, which is a bunch of name-calling and bickering.
This thread was a monumentally bad idea at its conception if you want to have amiable boards.
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For the love of *****. Can't we all just play nice, if someones childish enough to bait you just ignore them. Stop responding to threads or posts involving these people and like a fire without fuel they'll die out.
CWM I can appreciate that you personally feel Vance has it in for you, or has insulted you but this thread achieves nothing save to continue to stir the pot. And have you ever considered letting the conversation drop?
Vance what did we say in an earlier post? You won't change peoples minds badgering at them or labouring a point. If you and CWM (or others) can't find a common ground why continue a discussion till both sides are in a rage?
If unity of opinion is unachievable far better to agree to disagree and walk away than create this level of animosity.
And again Vance just because people don't agree with you it's not always intellectual dishonesty or lying. It is possible to approach the same subject and come to two very different equally valid conclusions. Particularly in something as fluid as an RPG.
CWM as another fan of 4E I've enjoyed a lot of your posts and opinions, but as another poster said earlier its not your job to champion the cause. Just enjoy the game with others of like mind and stop giving in to the negative waves.
Last point to everyone, and its a doozy. If your going to post......wait.....for......it...
Be constructive (favourite word rears head again).
I have no doubt sadly that this falls on deaf ears, after all why enjoy the thing you like when you can waste time in negativity.
You were being a jackass, you got called on in. No excuses, no drama, no dogpiling. The question is, are you a big enough person to admit it?
I know where I'd put my money.
And, yet, in another thread, BEFORE Crosswired launched this one, I did admit it an apologize for it. This thread was made for guys like you to launch into personal attacks and feel justified and unremorseful.
Funny that.
Since it's obvious that the thread serves no purpose than a hate-filled dogpile on me from a bunch of Editionistas, I'm definately gone. Certainly I know a handful of people now that will NEVER have anything useful to add to a discussion. Thanks, at least, for that much.
Run away!
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You were being a jackass, you got called on in. No excuses, no drama, no dogpiling. The question is, are you a big enough person to admit it?
I know where I'd put my money.
And, yet, in another thread, BEFORE Crosswired launched this one, I did admit it an apologize for it. This thread was made for guys like you to launch into personal attacks and feel justified and unremorseful.
Funny that.
Since it's obvious that the thread serves no purpose than a hate-filled dogpile on me from a bunch of Editionistas, I'm definately gone. Certainly I know a handful of people now that will NEVER have anything useful to add to a discussion. Thanks, at least, for that much.
I didn't find it so obvious - in fact I read the first posts with hopes of a developing discussion, clarifying what others felt to be insulting even if it wasn't meant that way.
I think all who do feel insulted / are told they were insulting have a chance here. Everybody keeps saying that he didn't insult anybody or at least he saw it as a reaction rather than the initiation. Great, but now you can see which of your posts was considered insulting - and perhaps, why.
Why not just call it a day? Why not just keep in mind that obviously not every post (this one included, I believe) was taken as intended by the poster and from now on try to take what is written without reading another intention into it?
The anonymity of the web makes it easy to post your thoughts without second notice and thus myke "hidden intentions" mostly unnecessary (even most uses of sarcasm and irony used in messageboards seem rather blunt).
If you really think that someone intents to isult you between the lines or something like that, don't go boom, clarify it instead. It often works in face to face conversations and sometimes works on messageboards as well. It won't make the world a happy go lucky bunny place, but it might help to keep discussions civil and to reduce unnecessary tension.
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I understand that a thread like this may seem problematic and I apologize for the disturbance.
My intention was to do what Paizo has asked us to do which is to moderate ourselves. In the original thread that started all of this David Marks and I were being targeted personally and nothing was being said to help cool the situation. If we are supposed to moderate ourselves then how can we do that without calling attention to it in a separate thread?
Btw, here's yours:
vance Posts
Wow!
His last 67 posts were done in the 4E forum mostly naysaying 4e, maybe thats why he hates 4E so much, he can't think of anything else!!
I understand that a thread like this may seem problematic and I apologize for the disturbance.
My intention was to do what Paizo has asked us to do which is to moderate ourselves. In the original thread that started all of this David Marks and I were being targeted personally and nothing was being said to help cool the situation. If we are supposed to moderate ourselves then how can we do that without calling attention to it in a separate thread?
My personal feeling is that one can moderate oneself by simply not responding to baiting or insulting comments. That's not always the best way I suppose, and if things are getting really out of hand it may have to be addressed, but if you can just ignore insulting posts as though they hadn't been made, seems like you'll lessen the number of them when the people making them aren't getting any replies.
For the love of *****.
Damn I hate riddles, what has 5 letters and can be loved?
Last point to everyone, and its a doozy. If your going to post......wait.....for......it...
Be constructive (favourite word rears head again).
I have no doubt sadly that this falls on deaf ears, after all why enjoy the thing you like when you can waste time in negativity.
You know, you are making some damn fine sense in this post. I'll follow your example and I'll go post more AOW->4E conversions later today (something I actually wasn't gonna do anymore in this forums.)
Ty Horus, you are a better man than I.
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My personal feeling is that one can moderate oneself by simply not responding to baiting or insulting comments. That's not always the best way I suppose, and if things are getting really out of hand it may have to be addressed, but if you can just ignore insulting posts as though they hadn't been made, seems like you'll lessen the number of them when the people making them aren't getting any replies.
This is well said. The best resolution to a conflict is to walk away, no one wins if these boards descend into pandemonium.
That said I will not post in this thread again as I would prefer to see it drop below the horizon, I encourage others to do the same.
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I understand that a thread like this may seem problematic and I apologize for the disturbance.
My intention was to do what Paizo has asked us to do which is to moderate ourselves. In the original thread that started all of this David Marks and I were being targeted personally and nothing was being said to help cool the situation. If we are supposed to moderate ourselves then how can we do that without calling attention to it in a separate thread?
My suggestions:
1) Don't start threads like this.2) You don't have to respond and correct every wrong thing folks post.
3) Ignore people that are rude.
4) Don't be rude yourself.
5) (Edit)Learn how to number bullet points. :-)
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My personal feeling is that one can moderate oneself by simply not responding to baiting or insulting comments. That's not always the best way I suppose, and if things are getting really out of hand it may have to be addressed, but if you can just ignore insulting posts as though they hadn't been made, seems like you'll lessen the number of them when the people making them aren't getting any replies.
I try to do the things you mentioned but the implication is that when the bully shows up everyone should just leave. So the bully gets his way and perfectly good discussions need to end because the civil thing to do is walk away? I would rather not give the aggressor the board because that is exactly what they want.
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My personal feeling is that one can moderate oneself by simply not responding to baiting or insulting comments. That's not always the best way I suppose, and if things are getting really out of hand it may have to be addressed, but if you can just ignore insulting posts as though they hadn't been made, seems like you'll lessen the number of them when the people making them aren't getting any replies.I try to do the things you mentioned but the implication is that when the bully shows up everyone should just leave. So the bully gets his way and perfectly good discussions need to end because the civil thing to do is walk away? I would rather not give the aggressor the board because that is exactly what they want.
No, that's not what he's saying. Steerpike is saying the civil thing to do is ignore the bully and his posts. In real life, this isn't such a smart plan since he can hit you, but on teh Internets, it works quite well. If they manage to make a cogent point by accident, quote and respond only to that bit of the post. Harder to do in real life as no-one likes being insulted, but it would serve to keep things calmer.
I try to do the things you mentioned but the implication is that when the bully shows up everyone should just leave. So the bully gets his way and perfectly good discussions need to end because the civil thing to do is walk away? I would rather not give the aggressor the board because that is exactly what they want.
I agree with Paul. You don't "leave," you continue to post in that thread or another thread and simply don't respond directly to the person who is being insulting. Just carry on constructive conversation with everyone else.
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No, that's not what he's saying. Steerpike is saying the civil thing to do is ignore the bully and his posts. In real life, this isn't such a smart plan since he can hit you, but on teh Internets, it works quite well. If they manage to make a cogent point by accident, quote and respond only to that bit of the post. Harder to do in real life as no-one likes being insulted, but it would serve to keep things calmer.
True. I have been able to ignore a few people. I will try to do better.
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CWM, I really suggest you stop trying to defend 4e with such vigour - it is a thankless task and you'll get an ulcer. If something is bad, do as suggested above - don't reply. The oxygen of trolls, whoever they are, is to be replied to. I have seen you in debate with a number of 4e critics (i.e. replying to them) and I don't think you achieved much. But you did end up with flame wars. And if they are being disrupting, email Paizo but don't start up threads like this. There were some bloody exchanges on the PF Alpha boards and it was unedifying for everyone (including me, as I was in the thick of it).
And it is not up to you to spread the word - that is WotC's marketing department's job. The only real way to make people understand 4e is if they buy it.
I try to do the things you mentioned but the implication is that when the bully shows up everyone should just leave. So the bully gets his way and perfectly good discussions need to end because the civil thing to do is walk away? I would rather not give the aggressor the board because that is exactly what they want.
I think your mistaken on how this occurs CWM. Message Boards are a community. A weird form of community because your never actually face to face but a community nonetheless. Anyone who regularly posts develops a reputation. That reputation includes both good and bad points but it can include more good points or more bad points.
Essentially we all eventually reap what we sow at least in the opinions of the other regulars and really pretty much the only currency going on a message board is the opinions of the other regulars.
Thats not to say that you need to always turn the other cheek - personally I think its perfectly valid to quote some one who's insulted you or just being particularly insulting and call them out on the behaviour in the thread in which the insult took place - you do want these sorts of things noticed by others after all.
My personal feeling is that one can moderate oneself by simply not responding to baiting or insulting comments. That's not always the best way I suppose, and if things are getting really out of hand it may have to be addressed, but if you can just ignore insulting posts as though they hadn't been made, seems like you'll lessen the number of them when the people making them aren't getting any replies.
Sadly, people in general have lost (or perhaps more aptly, have never found) the art of argument. While the internet and its supposed anonymity is certainly responsible for some of that, the problem existed long before: talk radio is a fine example.
People, for some reason, like to watch the progress of a disaster, and two or more people 'yelling' at one another and hurling insults (both open and couched) exemplifies this "disaster method".
We like to watch. Who will get one up on whom? Which one will post the most cutting remark without violating the terms of use? Ooooo, he DID NOT just say that, did he?
It's gotten to the point that the "disaster method" has become the accepted manner to communicate online, to the extent that it is now difficult to find a reasoned, rational argument in print in such places as this. (edit: Paizo is one of the few places where the noise - despite the last few days - seems to be kept to a minimum and where I truly get a sense that many people actually listen. There are other D&D boards, in my opinion, are the opposite end of this spectrum).
I don't have an answer for it, of course, but to say this.
Life is long and you're going to be right and you're going to be wrong on some issues throughout. When you are right, have the humility to state your case and let it be your argument. Answer questions and discuss your points without venom. When you are wrong, re-examine your position in light of the opposite side's view. Be able to change your position, if the situation is called for.
That is not losing, that is demonstrating an ability to be rational and adult in your dealings with one another.
And that, my friends, is the way we all win.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I am very happy with the general tone that most posters here --particularly those outside the initial arguments-- have taken. There's been a lot of good advice here.
And I really appreciate CWM's most recent posts, recognizing a tactical error and promising to learn from that.
To keep this thread kinda on target, I wanted to reference the Taunt spell from D&D 3.5, but apparently it isn't in the SRD.
Is there a corresponding taunt-like mechanic in 4th Edition?
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Message Boards are a community. A weird form of community because your never actually face to face but a community nonetheless.
Actually, if you come to PaizoCon you *will* be face to face! I always try to post like I would be facing someone in person at some point because it *can* happen. And then you have to be all "Oh, uh, sorry, I was, uh, on cough medicine that day."
-Pete
I am very happy with the general tone that most posters here --particularly those outside the initial arguments-- have taken. There's been a lot of good advice here.
And I really appreciate CWM's most recent posts, recognizing a tactical error and promising to learn from that.
To keep this thread kinda on target, I wanted to reference the Taunt spell from D&D 3.5, but apparently it isn't in the SRD.
Is there a corresponding taunt-like mechanic in 4th Edition?
From this point forth, I am likewise going to ignore posters that I feel are not contributing in a meaningful manner. I was relatively happy with other threads asking for actual advice on creating original content, houserules, or rules questions. I'd like to focus on those things.
I've not heard of the taunt spell, and couldnt find it through searching: could you explain what the spell does?
Btw, here's yours:
vance PostsWow!
His last 67 posts were done in the 4E forum mostly naysaying 4e, maybe thats why he hates 4E so much, he can't think of anything else!!
You know, you are SO not helping this thing cool down.
Lay off it man.|
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Is there a corresponding taunt-like mechanic in 4th Edition?
I'm not aware of a taunt spell.. I do recall the taunt ability of the Kender.
Taunt (Ex): Kender can use uncannily insightful insults to anger others, causing them to react irrationally towards the kender, thus lowering their defences. Opponents unaware of the kender cannot be taunted. A kender can taunt an opponent while performing most actions, with the exception of spellcasting and activating magic items by command word or spell activation methods. The kender must taunt for one full round before she has any effect. This is a language-dependent, mind-influencing effect (Will save negates, DC 10 + 1/2 kender's level + Cha modifier).
An opponent who fails its Will save suffers a -2 morale penalty to AC, but gains a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls when in melee combat with the kender. The opponent must make another Will save to attack any other target or cast a spell while the kender is within melee combat range; if he fails, he must attack the kender instead or lose that action. An opponent who attempts to cast a spell may make a Concentration check and use that result as its saving throw.
The effects of kender taunt last as long as the kender continues to insult the opponent plus 1d4 rounds or until he makes a Will save, whichever comes first.
Is that what you're talking about Chris?
It's somewhat similar to the fighter "Mark" abilities. (which Timitius amusingly renamed "1-2-3 Eyes On Me!" at our session today)
Director of Narrative
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I don't have an answer for it, of course, but to say this.
Life is long and you're going to be right and you're going to be wrong on some issues throughout. When you are right, have the humility to state your case and let it be your argument. Answer questions and discuss your points without venom. When you are wrong, re-examine your position in light of the opposite side's view. Be able to change your position, if the situation is called for.
That is not losing, that is demonstrating an ability to be rational and adult in your dealings with one another.
And that, my friends, is the way we all win.
Thank you.
Btw, here's yours:
vance PostsWow!
His last 67 posts were done in the 4E forum mostly naysaying 4e, maybe thats why he hates 4E so much, he can't think of anything else!!
You know, you are SO not helping this thing cool down.
Lay off it man.
Already did, read above.
And I admit it was a cheap shot, and I apologize for it.
Regardless, lets carry on:
Taunt:
'Your Momma is soo fat, I said your Momma is sooo FAT!'
Encounter - martial
Minor Action, Ranged 5
Target: One enemy
Attack: Cha vs Will ( special if you are trained Bluff you can add your skill ranks to Cha mod)
Hit: Target is inflamed by your commentary and will focus his attacks on you (save ends).
Special: You must take the Taunt feat to use this
power
...continuous arguing by members of the community, and seemingly political approaches to the game by the parent company and fans alike...this is why I quit playing D&D (other than trying a PBP for the first time)...
You quit playing D&D because of internerds... Wow...
Didn't the Knight class from the PHB2 have a sort of 'taunt' mechanic?
The kender from Dragonlance did too in AD&D.
I don't know if he still has it in 3rd edition though.Is there even any kender alive left ? ;)
It's not a direct insult, but it IS an insult. Me? I don't do that. It's not in my nature to do that. If I see someone lying, I'm not going to say "All 4E supporters are liars", I'm going to say "YOU are the one who is lying"... which is what I did.
This is a blatant lie. You've done this in "discussions" I've had with you. In addition, you lied about 4th Edition rules - and when confronted with evidence of your lying, you simply didn't respond. Very coy!
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Is there even any kender alive left ? ;)
One can only hope they were all exterminated. Gods those DL years were painful.
Although it did also gave me Gert The One! Gert was a Gully Dwarf thief whose tribe was attacked and he was left alone in the world. (Hence his self-named title "The One"). His "thieves tools" consisted of a pokey stick - but he was good with it! Gert would go up to the door, pokey-pokey-pokey, and the door would pop open.
Multiple times the party would send Gert up to scout and he'd return with valuable information.
"Gnolls"
"How many Gnolls, Gert?"
"1.. 2.. 3.."
"3?"
"3"
"You're sure?"
"3 Gnolls. Lots."
Which would actually turn out to be about 15 Gnolls. And yet they kept sending him up to scout.
They did eventually teach him to count on his fingers, but unfortunately he could only do it out loud, so it wasn't as helpful during the scouting missions.
I was wrong. I am sorry.
I was wrong. I am sorry.
We know you are sorry. Now apologize! ~grins~ (j/k! j/k!)