vance's page

Not at all. Check out Sleep. A higher level version that turns someone into a frog after one or two failed saves, and which ends once a save is made, certainly seems like it'd be in line.

It depends, are you really trying to 'polymorph' or are you going for the mechanic 'immobilize' and just FLUFF that the guy's a toad. There's a very important distinctive difference here, because actually turning a guy into a toad has a LOT more ramifications than simply making him stick in the same square in combat for one encounter.

Well, 4E is designed against 'stacking' or 'non-fixed' effects for powers. So a spell design, keeping that in mind, would seem to be all or nothing.

Granted, monster powers are often exceptions to this, but that ALSO seems to be a design caveat - the MONSTERS get the bizzare and non-samey abilities.

(1) Your insults undermine your argument;

Possibly, but I really am just sick of his existance. And, unfortunately, I don't see a way to ignore his posts here, else I would.

(2) You misspelled "tomorrow" and "committed." Petty of me, but pedantry is a two-way street.

I didn't misspell anyway, I just chose to write in 'typo'. :)

Size creep. At the moment, I want to scream "Pick a size, and stick with it!" because after set after set set of size creep, AtG started to shrink the figures. Can we please get consistent? :)

Think D&D minis has it bad, try playing 'Axis and Allies'. The same basic Panzer tank is available in four different sizes. And that game isn't really 'scale-specific' in the first place...

Sometimes I just wonder if the sculptors get bored.

wow ... just, wow

If you're shocked, then tough. Some of you guys want to act in a certain way, and get your little power kicks, and call names, and do all these terrible things to one another on a regular basis, hundreds and hundreds of times, and then you're SHOCKED when someone genuinely just isn't going to like you?

Welcome to the real world. Given how Sebastian has stalked and hounded me since i signed on, given HIS language, and HIS antics, and his THREATS, why should I feel differently?

If he's not happy with my impression of him, it's his own damn fault.

Congratulations; with that comment your credibility went to zero. If it weren't there already...'cause, you know, if you plan on arguing law with a LAWYER (lawyers?) then you'd better do your homework.

Sebastian is a lying little weasel who I wouldn't trust to exhale carbon dioxide. I don't actually even believe he's a lawyer, and about the only real qualification of his that I've seen is that certainly acts the part of the scheister stereotype.

And I'm not thinly veiling anything, I actually think he's a walking waste of flesh that would do the world a favor if he commited suicide tommorow. And if you think I would feel terrible if he actually did, it would ONLY be because he didn't change his ways rather than give up. Either way, the world would be better off.

I hope this clarifies the situation for you for the future.

Is there anything like a petrification effect? A ranged entangle?

There are a couple of immobilizing spells at high levels.. and all they do is immobilize the opponent for the encounter unless the victim saves (with an attempt once per round) that I found. Maybe a little like entangle, (though far far less effective), and certainly nothing like petrification.

Vance, you have no idea what you're talking about. A public performance is a specific statutory category of right under the copyright act.

I was affiliated with a case (as a witness) where a public reading of "The Trouble With Tribbles" was found as an unauthorized redistribution of the script and therefore a copyright violation. This was back in around 1988 or so, and the case was in Marion County, Indiana.

Now, the Copyright Acts HAVE been updated sense, largely to cover a lot of 'specific-case' situations, such as cable distribution, internet, and so on. And, while you're right that there exists NOW the specific language to cover these situations, it wasn't always there, and the findings were that they were, in fact, a form of redistribution.

Chapter 5 of the current Copyright Act, which handles specific infringements, do not specifically refer to 'public displays' in the language, nor does any other relavent act according to http://www.copyright.gov . Oddly enough, the only thing coming CLOSE would be the bits on 'phonorecords' in Chapter One.

But looking over the Act, ALL IP infringements clearly require a transferrence of the IP from one person (or persons) to another in some capacity. Are you actually arguing otherwise?

When do characters start getting magic powers like that?

Currently, there ARE no powers that really pull stuff off like that, regardless of level. (Indeed, there are FEW powers in any class that aren't somehow straight-up damage effects). That's actually part of the difficulty, we're attempting to model it from scratch for a system that's actually HOSTILE to the very concept.

Once case I was involved in dealt with a public performance of the work. There was no distribution of the work and no allegation of distribution. But since public performance is one of the rights specifically protected by copyright law, it was sufficient. All you have to do is pull up the Copyright Act to see the bundle of rights that is protected.

A public performance is a form of redistribution, and has been explicitly found as such, in and of itself. It's just not an 'fixed-medium' transferrence such as photocopying a book or copying an MP3.

You should really give up pretending to be a lawyer on the internet - it ain't working.

It must be sad for you to know that each morning when you wake up, the world is hampered from being a little better place because you're still alive.

This again is completely false. I've been involved in successful infringement actions against people who aren't distributing anything. And I don't use the RIAA as a copyright source (and I don't know anyone who would).

I would love to see something cited here because I've NEVER heard of a copyright infringement case that didn't hinge on SOME form of redistribution. I can't even imagine how such a case could even come to the attention of the court.

And, to cite Sebastian's MP3 stance, those usually have LOST on actual court challenges (where the defendant chose to fight rather than settle). Indeed, that's explicitly why I said I wouldn't cite the RIAA for anything when it comes to copyright law.

In any event, I think you misread my post. You said Copyright only covers "distribution". Period. That's false.

The RIAA is probably the world's worst source to quote on the merits of copyright law. The main reason that copyright law covers 'distribution only' is because 'fair use' covers pretty much any non-distributed use and makes any claims of infringement questionable at best.

Copyright law doesn't SPECIFICALLY allow me to photocopy the entire PHB and use the sheets as wallpaper in my garage. But, as bizzare as it is, it's 'fair use', personal, with zero redistribution potential and zero damages to WotC.

The thing to keep in mind is that Copyright law is not an absolute when it comes to fair use. But, if you're taking an entire copy of a work in a redistribution effort specifically to deny proper compensation to the copyright holder, as per what this thread has discussed... that's called 'piracy' and in no way, shape, or form, could be considered 'fair use'.

Same poop, different millenium.

True, but it happened that the Romans were right...

Oh hey, who wants to talk about Polymorph, and not be lectured on why they're wrong not to love everything about 4E?

'Cause I'd like to talk about Polymorph and how it could be implemented to maintain the fantasy feel without being unbalanced, as soon as y'all are done feeding the troll.

You're right.. I mean, I talked about Gygax and OF COURSE we're talking about how great 3.5 was... ugh.

It really depends on what you want out of Polymorph, but I think that the 'turn the opponent into a toad' spell is covered. "Toad Morph" as a mid-level power that has a save appropriate to the level, lasts until end of encounter or until the victim can break the magic. Abilities reduce to that of a 1HD monster.

Not sure what you mean. 4e has Fireball, Black Fire, and Meteor Swarm which are all fire based big bang spells. Is it because Fireball no longer scales with level?

You see, you can't break out of the pure mechanics of the thing. My problem with fireball now is that it's not special. In fact, there's nothing in the system that you can point to as 'specioal'. It's all very mechanical, very samey, very fixed. There's no mystique or wonder to magic, and, really, it's pretty much the same thing as martial and divine powers anyway.

The fantasy is gone, and gone in the name of 'game balance' and 'tactical board-game' play.

I never thought I would say this, but I preferred Gygax's vision.

In any event, the courts sided with Blizzard.

And the main reason is that you're not part of a FIXED product with WoW (like you are with, say, NWN), but a subscription to a service and the case, as I remember it, was a lot more about the violation of the terms of service to the ongoing account rather than the software EULA.

EULAs about just having a piece of software generally aren't considered enforceable for numerous reasons.

Reproduction does not have to be public, and there does not have to be distribution for infringement to occur.

Actually, fair use would trump pretty much anything I do so long as I don't redistribute, and I can't think of any case where a legitimate owner has EVER been fined or sued for making their own personal copy for whatever reason.

And I have no reading of the law that would say otherwise. Granted, i suppose some idiot could try to argue it (like the RIAA would want to do), but then lies the fact that copyright is usually a civil court matter, and not a criminal one, and that you would have to establish some concept of damages... which would be laughed at.

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but what do you see as the biggest holes in D20 Modern?

Silly secondary classes. A rediculous amount of space just rewriting the D&D magic system. A complete lack of understanding on modern settings which weren't cheap Shadowrun clones.. horrible vehicle system, horrible HP 'kludges' for massive damage...

Actually if you open the book, start at page one and just go all the way to the index. :)

Facism, Pinback? Are you flippin' serious?

Dear God, people who write material actually want to be able to feed thier children. Holy crap, that's just plain evil. Hitler and Franco obviously had a hand in this! I hear that WotC plans to start raiding private homes for illegal PDFs and line up perpetrators for execution without a trial!

Or, maybe, you just admitted to the world you don't give a rat's anus about the people who made the game you pretend to support, and have the whole attitude of 'hey, I'm entitled! It's a game, dammit, and I can't live without it, and that $25 for the PDF is just UNFAIR!' I mean, it's food, shelter, and D&D PDFs, right?

Or food last? Which is it, I'm honestly confused now.

I think the points raised in the past few posts are what bugs me about 4E the most. In the name of 'balance' from a board-game perspective, we're not going to do fantasy anymore. Everything is mechanical, precise, fixed... it's a math game more than it's ever been.

I remember when getting fireball for the first time was really cool.. now it's just another power in a long list of them, and not really all that different from anything else.

I just feel that the obsession with board-game balance, we've lost far, far too much of what made D&D special.

I have to say that it's fairly weak for a feat, but I think it's done to avoid the mass modifier stacking that 3.0 and 3.5 had.

Just to prevent any misconceptions about this, there is actually an overview document of the AP similar in format to how Paizo does it.

Well, this doesn't shock me. WotC hasn't done anything FIRST since 3.0 came out.

I bring in to many newbs to play this way.

Well, I don't mind 'specific form' spells. It's a little easier, and is more in keeping with 4E's design anyway. I do think we lose a little bit of the 'wonderous magic' by doing things this way - but that's HARDLY limited to polymorph now, is it?

I am not going over to the 3e board to talk smack. I am here on the 4e board agreeing with those that are looking to fix the problem.

No, apprently you're on the 4E board to talk smack... about 3E.

The point of the thread is to find in-system alterantives or 4E house-rules for polymorph for those who miss it - NOT complain about how terrible 3E was at all times.

Sure because their buyers don't buy crap and they don't take risks on small time publishers. That is true for everything they stock and not just games.

And there it is. Anything not WotC is crap? Are you honestly saying that on the damn PAIZO board?

And Barnes and Noble and Borders take risks on small publishers all the time. It's just that they don't do it with games, which is a niche within a niche within a niche in their store.

Seems to me the barriers to entry into the market are pretty low, however.

Well, for PDF publishing certainly, and it's not too hard to get with Diamond for some game stores that aren't totally dedicated to Warhammer and WotC.

But if you want into, say, Barnes and Noble... you're likely screwed. :S

It could be argued that their muscle keeps out products from retail outlets (and, certainly, TSR did this in the day).. but.. we're such a small product niche that, who the hell would really care?

Well, you know, it's just that I'm really tired of being nice, and would REALLY like to learn to be a total selfish prat online. I don't think I'm really pulling it off well, though, so .. could you give lessons? We can work here, I'll go through paypal for you, and we'll determine rates based on results.

Which does not matter if they buy product.

Yeah it does, if it's only them buying it. Remember, Star Trek died. A 'loyal fanbase' isn't all that great to be stuck with alone if they can't pay your bills... and WotC is an expensive shop.

Which simply indicates that financial and critical success does not always coincide. Love them or hate them those movies hauled in some serious bank.

Actually, they didn't. By the time of the third prequel, most people who invested in the franchise lost a boatload of money. (And, though it took in a goodling amount of case, Sith is believed to have LOST money when all's said and done).

But, that's not the issue. You can not build and sustain a legacy with a 'uber-loyal unquestioning fanbase' and no one else. That's why you have to listen to the critics.

An anti-trust monopoly doesn't need to be the 'sole player', just the 'one player that dictates terms to the market'... and, well, WotC could qualify under that.

Was it really that bad of a thing to do? SirUrza supplied the community with something valuable and effective for typing up documents, almost capable of replicating a 4th edition book's font. (The almost excluding the elusive Vecna font, which I cannot find anywhere) Honestly, it wasn't a jerk move, it was a commendable move if anything.

No, it was a jerk move.

First, the fonts are illegal. They were taken from illegally redistributed PDFs of the core books. They were spliced from the PDFs in a method that's already been found, in court, to be illegal.

Second, he put it up as a response to the font I put up which was legal and free. It was a big middle finger.

How would you like if you posted up an article and someone said "go HERE for a better version of the this article!" ... how would you take it? Just curious.

So, yeah, jerk move.

CourtFool wrote:

What? I am sorry. I did not hear you. I was downloading Urza's cool font pack.

Burned.

Ow. My internet feelings are hurt. I bet that gave you an internet penis growth as well. Now we can all be internet biotches!

Give me a break. It was an a@+$!*$ thing to do, and I guess that I'm more upset that I was surprised.

Very true. I don't miss polymorph because it was powerful -- I miss it because it's cool :(

Oh, I agree. But that's where you and I part ways with WotC. See, WotC's all about board-game balance these days, and NOT about presenting a fantasy world to play in.

I never really found 'balance' to be an important issue in gaming. If it IS an issue, then that's the GM's job anyway. Keep the system RESONABLE, and you'll be fine.

Are you sure we're not already there?

Some have said that since 3.5 .. but, yeah, there are a lot of much more worrying parallels these days.

I had forgotten about Gamma World 3rd edition. It took what, a 64 page softcover book included in one of the adventures to only partly fix it?

To be fair to that era, "It's at the typesetter's!" is no longer an excuse. :)

meaning what? If he produces Tengar manor for 4e lets say, he couldnt make Tomb of Horrors for pathfinder?

If this is true.. and that's a big if. It was that either Necromancer did EVERYTHING as a GSL product, under WotC's approval, or nothing at all.

And, as I said, this wasn't the only direction from which the rumor flowed. (And, sadly, echoes a comment from WotC a couple of months ago about the nature of the GSL.)

But it will a representative sample (if not the entire population) of the hard core dedicated 4e players and GMs that would be highly likely to buy future products.

But, as we've already seen, that group is very unlikely to criticize WotC's products in any meaningful way, and will highly likely to buy those products regardless of their quality and whatever feedback has been delivered.

It would pretty much be the most worthless, self-selecting sample group you could pick.

(This is nothing new, check out a Star Wars board about the prequel trilogy sometime...)

I don't get it, "Clark Lives"... his most recent post on the Wizards Forum is from June 27th, almost a month old. Were some additional messages from him on that thread deleted?

While there ARE posts missing from those threads... I don't know if any were Clark's.

So you expect they intend to turn Dragon into a cheap form of pay-for-playtesting scheme?

I would not put it past them.
I also would not expect it to be particularly effective, as once Dragon goes subscriber only they are going to have a very limited pool providing feedback.

Actually, given the articles, the 'adventure parth', and the actual admission that articles will change 'based on feedback' ... isn't that what Dungeon and Dragon (DDI) already are?

I was promoted.

They were that eager to get you off the field, were they?

Right. He was clear on some support but over all the GSL isnt what he wants. And his emails are unanswered. But he'll be doing something.

Aww.. screw it.. this is a rumor, so treat it as such.

But, on middling authority, I've been told that WotC actually legally threatened Clark, personally, over terms of the GSL and the continuance of any other product lines, and that's what's causing all the delays.

I do not know if this is true, and Clark has not (and should not) verify this. I have also heard of other cases of the same sort of antics coming from WotC's offices in regards to 4E material.

That's why (according to this rumor) there's been such a huge chilling effect on announcements and licencees.

BUT Wotc's forums are down again, so we'll have to wait on that.

I was the other party to the conversation. :P

Granted, though, it was more middling. But he had a LOT snarkier comments (already posted) past that one, and they're seperated by a number of days. I'm just saying that I wouldn't cite that Clark's statement there was indicative of his continued 4E/GSL support.

That's not really a specific issue here, though. The GM should always fudge for the betterment of the session, and that, as you say, was something the GM was entirely in control of.

Not quite the same as a spell that a player's character would know innately.

Well, the trick here is simple...

Is my main product (or products) strong enough that the people who would sign on the OGL for the system would not feel a need to bypass those products?

I think the big problem with d20, particularly d20 Modern, was that the answer was 'no'. After all, no one reinvents the wheel if it's already round enough. d20 had many gaps, and d20M was... embarassing, in a lot of respects. Each BEGGED for third parties to flesh it out.

Okay, that's fine, but when someone has already rewritten 80 percent of your game... that last 20 percent doesn't seem like much work, and the OGL just backfired on you.

Me either. Ah well...

Well, for all the trouble of Polymorph, there were FAR more efficient ways of slaying your opponent. Polymorph worked a LOT better in non-combat, more "sneaky" situations.

It's tiresome, and it's killing the hobby. If new players can't join a group due to elitist prejudice, then they will go do something else. Then, when your group falls apart via death, divorce, parenthood, job pressure or relocation, you won't be able to find a group, because all the players who would have formed one got driven away from the hobby by insular covens of fatbeards.

I don't think it's the age of gamers, I think it's the marketing. Like I said, if the makers of the game say "THIS is how you're supposed to play it", then that's how most of the target audience is going to play the game.

There are so many good fan-made character sheets online that I've always been a bit surprised that people buy character sheets to begin with.

Well, early on, you're going to meet 'system completists' who will buy EVERYTHING they can for the new rules sets, including chararacter sheets and officially-branded toilet paper. That wears off very quickly, though.

I suppose we should be thankful that they didn't say "The Bard will appear as an EXTRA in the Character Sheets pack!"

I understand that the DD isn't even as powerful as vassal on that department (hell, I've played with it a little to know). But it seems like that if you cannot physically do it, or show it, on the DD, then it's not in the 4E rules.

I agree. The 3.5e character sheets were great, and impossible to print out on many home printers. The 4e ones (from what I've heard) are pointless.

I think that's part of it, and part of the frustration everyone's feeling.

The character sheets have never been popular or good sellers, no matter the edition. They've always been among the 'first pirated' of works out there. Why not build a smidgeon of community spirit by making it an outright FREEBIE on their site?