This has been brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again. Creating undead should be made a feat, like constructs. After all, there isn't a Create Greater Golem spell.
Personally I love the idea, let me give you my 2 cents though:
I)
Having spells for both Summon Monster AND Summon Undead is not only redundant, it's superfluous. I'd rather integrate undead to the Summon Monster spell tables (in case they aren't there already) and leave it up to the player's choice whether he wants his Summon Monster spells specifically for summoning undead.
II)
In the case of Create Undead being turned into a feat, I'd change the "Can only control your level times four in undead HD" for a "Can't create an undead with more HD than you" one, this way, your fantasy tales can finally have an evil necromancer antagonist commanding undead armies that terrorize nearby villages without resorting to cheap plot devices like:
Player: Heck! Why he can do it but not me?
DM: Becaaaaaause... he has an artifact that allows that, yeah that...
*fight with the necromancer ensues*
Player: I keep the artifact!
DM: The artifaaaaaaaaaaact was destroyed in the fight, yeah that...
Player: No it wasn't! Remember I enveloped it in a Resilient Sphere six rounds ago!
DM: I DON'T CARE! I SAID IT WAS DESTROYED!
(Any likeness to any DM living, dead, or undead, was -totally- intentional)
Besides, it's not like your average PC can walk around, adventure after adventure with the Army of Darkness behind him. As convenient as it sounds in paper, there's SEVERAL complications related with attempting to pull that stunt:
1) Budget: Create Undead, like any other Item Creation Feat, would require GOLD. Is your player as rich as to keep blowing gold in expendable minions, from which he'll keep having from 2 to 6 casualties per adventure?
2) Materials: Contrary to other Item Creation feats whose materials can be purchased "off-camera" implicitly when only gold costs are mentioned, Create Undead requires CORPSES. Is your adventuring party willing to become enemies of every village they visit in the name of the party's necromancer pillaging their graveyard? How many villages must your party be banned from before the necromancer has enough "recruits"? Furthermore, can your party's cleric even allow such repeated atrocities and remain on good terms with his deity?
3) Transport: Starting the 5HD, most undead can only operate (or exist) in nighttime (vampires, ghosts, etc), is your adventuring party willing to limit their activity cicle to nights only?
4) Public Relations: A group of 6 adventurers and 20 ghouls isn't likely to be welcomed in, well, ANYWHERE. Furthermore, no king allows just like that a foreign army to cross his lands... he'll send heralds and stop the foreigners until they explain themselves and get permission from his highness, anything else would be an INVASION, do you think a king will be happy with the ARMY OF DARKNESS visiting?
5) Health: Being objective, a group of humanoid, living adventurers moving around day in and day out with such EPIC disease focus as an army of corpses would need to roll daily saving throws vs Disease starting the 4th day or so, and we're not talking about kind diseases.
Undead armies, only good if you're:
-Filthy rich
-Sedentary
-A hermit
Having spells for both Summon Monster AND Summon Undead is not only redundant, it's superfluous. I'd rather integrate undead to the Summon Monster spell tables (in case they aren't there already) and leave it up to the player's choice whether he wants his Summon Monster spells specifically for summoning undead.
That's how I have it now, but it's always sort of bugged me. Frankly, I'd much rather throw the necromancer a bone, make the summon (or, in this case, animate) undead spells Necromancy spells instead of Conjurations (to play to a school we KNOW isn't barred to him), let him animate a LOT of lower-level ones for a higher-level slot, and require him to have corpses around to do it. (The latter for purely flavor reasons; the former two for mechanical ones).
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Having spells for both Summon Monster AND Summon Undead is not only redundant, it's superfluous.That's how I have it now, but it's always sort of bugged me. Frankly, I'd much rather throw the necromancer a bone, make the summon (or, in this case, animate) undead spells Necromancy spells instead of Conjurations (to play to a school we KNOW isn't barred to him), let him animate a LOT of lower-level ones for a higher-level slot, and require him to have corpses around to do it.
Given the nature of Summoning spells vs. animating dead, I think I'd rather not even have Summon Undead spells. I'm fine with a Necromancer animating undead temporarily or permanantly, but Summoning should remain more 'Conjuror-y,' rather than have Summoning lists for other Specialists. (Similarly, I wouldn't want a list of shadow creature summons for Illusionists.)
It just feels kinda 'been there, done that' for the Necromancer to become a Conjuror sub-specialist, who uses a different Summon Monster list, but the same mechanics.
I've decided I am going to turn this into a KQ submission. Here's hoping Wolfgang likes it.
Well, obviously I'm in the overwhelming minority, but I don't really like this idea. I thought the idea behind Craft: Construct was that you had to actually, you know, BUILD something. You need to stitch a flesh golem together, you need to sculpt the body of one that's made of metal or clay, etc. The animation would be part of the construction process. I can see a boy genius with a "How to Make a Golem" manual and all the ingredients being able to make a Shield Guardian.
Undead, on the other hand, should be the product of a magic spell, preferably a very evil one. Necromancy should be soul-blackening magic, not a purely mechanical process (which is how I see most of the Craft skills working). Little Jimmy the Boy Wonder needs to study the Dark Arts before he can raise a dead cricket.The difference is minor, and mainly one of flavor, but I just can't really see it any other way.
But I'm obviously in the overwhelming minority.
Well, craft construct is just a feat that allows creation of animate thing from previously assembled body. You need to make a craft(armorsmithing) check to make the body first. Well, you can have someone else to make the check as you are just making the final touch with spells. Check the golem entry... With craft construct you just make the necessary rituals and you cast spells needed to animate the construct and give it the abilities it should have. So I can imagine that requirements to animate a ghoul would require animate dead spell of proper level and ghoul touch. to make a ghast you'd have to add a stinking cloud or something...Still a time consuming ritual involving black magic. I see the fact that it would share the mechanic with construct creation as positive.
And about summon undead. Hmm... rubs off the word summon, writes animate in it's place and adds corpse requirement.
...
Weak if compared with conjuration(summoning)? Well, necromancy certainly shouldn't be a on par with school that has bringing creatures to fight as it's main strength, right?
And about summon undead. Hmm... rubs off the word summon, writes animate in its place and adds corpse requirement.
Yeah, that was my thought. I don't like "summoning" undead. Make the animation spells necromancy, and require corpses. Keep the latter as conjurations. Other than that, the mechanics (casting time, etc.) can be similar.
Well, it's just a matter of flavour and I think that this is one of those things that can be house-ruled easily to fit the needs of the compaign.
For ease of reference, the original thread on this topic is here.
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Count me in as another person in favor of Craft Undead feats. Seems like a much better mechanical framework for instituting creation of diverse or bizarre types of undead. And much more flavorful than the present one-spell-makes-all system.
Example -
Mummy, CL X; Craft Undead, Bestow Curse, Horrid Wilting or Cleric Spell X. Market price: XXXXX. Requires the corpse of a creature or character of at least 5 HD who was cursed then ritually sacrificed. The corpse must be specially prepared by removing the internal organs, dryed out, then wrapped in linen.
This is a great example of how a Create Undead feat would work. The downside is all the conversion work necessary. We are talking about 5 Monster Manuals, and Libris Mortis, not to mention numerous other sourcebooks. Even just the OGL undead number 19 total.
Not all undead have to be created. Vampires, Bodaks, Ghosts, and Nightcrawlers don't need creation rules, just off the top of my head.
And since we're only worried about the Pathfinder core for now, we only have to make creation rules for the SRD undead.
I haven't seen this idea brought up before, but it makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I think that the basic vanilla animate dead (they're tastier than you'd think!) is still worth having as a spell working just as it does now, for creating zombies and skeletons. Sure a human zombie isn't much of a threat at 9th level, but a troll skeleton or some other monster animated undead isn't too bad.
The craft undead feat would be a lot better though than the create (greater) undead spells.
I have to disagree with Craft Undead as a feat but it goes to how your DM/World sees undead. Having them be a craft almost denotes that they are some sort of Golem, which they are not. It is a corpse reainimated by dark magic. A corpse reainimated by lighting or some sort of quasi-science would be a flesh golem.
Simply having the feat, IMO, would do you no good in creating undead unless you have some way to infuse them with negative material.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I have to disagree with Craft Undead as a feat but it goes to how your DM/World sees undead. Having them be a craft almost denotes that they are some sort of Golem, which they are not. It is a corpse reainimated by dark magic. A corpse reainimated by lighting or some sort of quasi-science would be a flesh golem.
Simply having the feat, IMO, would do you no good in creating undead unless you have some way to infuse them with negative material.
I'd think that the feat and the spellcast DOES infuse the undead with negative material - the same way an item creation feat infuses magic items with magic, and the craft construct feat infuses constructs with animating magic/elemental spirits, etc. The difference is all in the mechanics and balance of how you get to your end product, and shouldn't in any way change the flavor of how you're doing the animation.
Hi again.
This is my proposal for a feat version of Create Undead. As you'll notice, the requisites for the feat grants access to arcane casters to it as well, this for two reasons:
1) The vast majority of evil necromancers featured in fantsy tales are wizards, not clerics.
2) It's not like Clerics lost a great deal by sharing this resource, given how, to date, they're still the most ridiculously overpowered character class (second only to Star Wars d20's Jedi Guardian)
Create Undead
Prerequisites: Capable of casting Animate Dead.
You borrow power from the negative plane to animate undead minions.
Benefit: In addition to the corpse, the character requires a prepared ceremony that costs 50gp per hit die of undead to be created. More than one undead can be raised in the same ceremony (as well as more than one type), but he can’t raise more HD of undead in a single ceremony than he has caster levels. A quick listing of undead by HD is given as follows:
HD--Type of Undead
1.....Skeleton
2.....Ghoul, Zombie
3-4...Shadow
5....Wight, Ghast
6....Wraith
7....Mummy
8....Spectre
9....Vampire
10+..Ghost
As soon as the ceremony is complete, created undead get a Will save DC 14 + the spellcaster’s respective spellcasting attribute modifier (if the spellcaster has Spell Focus: Necromancy feats, add those bonuses to the DC as well). A succesful save means the creature is not under the spellcaster’s control and will attack him within the following turn, while a natural 20 indicates the undead actually becomes free-willed, gaining a +4 turn resistance and retaining the same Int score as well as any classes and class features he had in life, in addition to gaining the ability to create spawn (if his new undead type allows). The character can’t create any form of undead which can only be created through specific processes (Liches), direct intervention of a deity (Deathknights), or undead native to different planes of existence (Night Walkers). Undead created in this way don’t count against the limit of undead HD he can control at a time, but unless the DM likes to throw gold at the players by the millions, he shouldn’t be worried about them raising armies of the dead, case in which he should rather be more worried about the tons of magic items they can craft with said gold, which would be far more dangerous than any undead army.
This looks like it's functionally the same as the old Create Undead spell, except without the level requirements.
Also, I'm not sure why you say 'arcane casters as well'. My version of the feat required Spell Focus OR channel negative, not both. Necromancers are just expected to prove it with a feat choice.
Undead are also really cheap compared to constructs. Since you ignore the HD cap, a necromancer can create an army of a thousand skeletons for 50,000 gp. Or the cost of about five flesh golems. I think the HD cap should stick around for this reason.
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I would love to see a Craft Undead feat that allowed a necromancer to create self-willed or mindless undead that are enhanced with special feats or templates, and don't count towards some limit.
And since we're only worried about the Pathfinder core for now, we only have to make creation rules for the SRD undead.
So thats what, 15 kinds of undead? Can anyone say Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Undead Revisited? Some new fluff on undead and how they fit into the world of Golarion, some crunch that allows necromancer villains (or PCs, if you're into that sort of thing) to be effective challenges without hand-waving.
I'd buy it.
This looks like it's functionally the same as the old Create Undead spell, except without the level requirements.
Also, I'm not sure why you say 'arcane casters as well'. My version of the feat required Spell Focus OR channel negative, not both. Necromancers are just expected to prove it with a feat choice.
Undead are also really cheap compared to constructs. Since you ignore the HD cap, a necromancer can create an army of a thousand skeletons for 50,000 gp. Or the cost of about five flesh golems. I think the HD cap should stick around for this reason.
Isn't that the whole point of being an evil Necromancer? To create an army of undead...
Anyhow, I like the feat more with the Animate Dead as a prereq...it explains the ability to infuse with negative material. Honestly I'm not sure on cost however, that might be able to be handled in Role Playing....it's possible that a necro could get all his skeletons for free, for example, by going to the site of an ancient battle field....this wouldn't cost him anything other then travel time.
Limiting the creation of 50k undead however should also be done by RP means....logistically, what is a character going to do with that many undead? Where would he house them? How would he keep them out of sight of the local goody-goody paladin etc? The player who's hoping to create an undead army could find himself the plot object of a bad sci-fi channel movie...
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I'm not a fan of this idea. I can see it working for low level, unintelligent undead such as Skeletons and Zombies, but a Creation Feat should not apply to any undead with sentience.
Historically, undead creatures who retain sentience, such as ghouls, wraiths, ghosts, spectres, vampires, liches, ghasts, wights, etc. are products of curses, or strong black magic tied to their actions in life. They may have the ability to create more of their kind as an extension of their curse/condition, but these creatures are not generally created at the whim of a necromancer.
Making a feat that allows any necromancer to easily create sentient undead robs the creature of its appeal both as a threat to the PCs and as a plot hook.
If we're going to make it this easy to create undead (i.e., using a feat), it should be limited to non-sentient undead ONLY. Necromancers should not be able to create any type of undead that retains a portion of its free will.
My suggestion (in basic form. I'm not trying to write a complete entry):
Create Undead <Metamagic>
PreRequisite: Ability to cast Animate Dead or ability to Rebuke Undead
Effect: User can create unintelligent undead to do his/her bidding. User can only create skeletons or zombies. (Qty open for discussion)
Create Greater Undead <Metamagic>
PreRequisite: Create Undead
Effect: User can create advanced undead: Mummies, Large to Huge Size Skeletons and Zombies, and "special" skeletons and zombies, such as JuJu Zombies and other variant zombies. (Qty open for discussion)
I would love to see a Craft Undead feat that allowed a necromancer to create self-willed or mindless undead that are enhanced with special feats or templates, and don't count towards some limit.
It would be nice. However, if there is no limit, undead would have to cost more, the same way constructs and Planar Allies do. One of the reason undead are so cheap under the existing system is that only so many can be controlled, and most just can't be permanently controlled at all.
So thats what, 15 kinds of undead? Can anyone say Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Undead Revisited? Some new fluff on undead and how they fit into the world of Golarion, some crunch that allows necromancer villains (or PCs, if you're into that sort of thing) to be effective challenges without hand-waving.
I'd buy it.
Paizo, please let me write that book! And re: handwaving: damn straight. That's the whole thing I've been trying to fix this whole time.
Necromancers should not be able to create any type of undead that retains a portion of its free will.
But they can already do this. That's exactly what Create Undead and Create Greater Undead do.
Isn't that the whole point of being an evil Necromancer? To create an army of undead...
Perhaps that's the goal, but without 'Sargents' of lower level necromancers or evil clerics, you won't be able to control the whole thing at once.
Anyhow, I like the feat more with the Animate Dead as a prereq...it explains the ability to infuse with negative material. Honestly I'm not sure on cost however, that might be able to be handled in Role Playing....it's possible that a necro could get all his skeletons for free, for example, by going to the site of an ancient battle field....this wouldn't cost him anything other then travel time.
First off, one of the ideas of creating the feat is to remove the spell, since it would be redundant. There is no 'create flesh golem' spell.
Second, undead cost money NOW. It's not for the body. It's for gemstones to power the ritual. It's assumed that the necromancer pays for corpses separately or just goes graverobbing.Limiting the creation of 50k undead however should also be done by RP means....logistically, what is a character going to do with that many undead? Where would he house them? How would he keep them out of sight of the local goody-goody paladin etc? The player who's hoping to create an undead army could find himself the plot object of a bad sci-fi channel movie...
I don't know what a PC is going to do with an army, but most PCs don't create undead. The party Cleric or Paladin tends to have a problem with it. The trouble is that the BBeG doesn't need 1,000 meat(less)shields.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Necromancers should not be able to create any type of undead that retains a portion of its free will.But they can already do this. That's exactly what Create Undead and Create Greater Undead do.
Yes, but the types of undead are limited and they exist as spells (and high level spells at that), which retain the Black Magic aspect of creating undead as opposed to granting the ability to anyone with the feat and a high enough roll.
I believe they should remain as spells. But, if the ability does become a feat (or series of feats) there should be a limit to the type of undead that can be created, or a level-dependent prerequisite for each feat in the chain.
Yes, but the types of undead are limited and they exist as spells (and high level spells at that), which retain the Black Magic aspect of creating undead as opposed to granting the ability to anyone with the feat and a high enough roll.
I believe they should remain as spells. But, if the ability does become a feat (or series of feats) there should be a limit to the type of undead that can be created, or a level-dependent prerequisite for each feat in the chain.
Does Craft Construct grant the ability to anyone with a High Roll?
The types of undead to be created can remain limited (just like there are no Crafting instructions for Inevitables).Each undead can also have an appropriate level pre-requisite (as opposed to the current Create Undead requirements, which are much too high). Just like golems.
And each undead can have a unique spell pre-requisite, once again like constructs do. If something requires Bestow Curse, Cause Fear, and Gentle Repose (like my example mummy), I think it remains fairly clear that black necromancy is involved.
I really don't think there should be a feat chain. Not only does that ask high-level necromancers to use up too many feats just to keep making relevant undead, Craft Construct doesn't require extra feats.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Yes, but the types of undead are limited and they exist as spells (and high level spells at that), which retain the Black Magic aspect of creating undead as opposed to granting the ability to anyone with the feat and a high enough roll.
I believe they should remain as spells. But, if the ability does become a feat (or series of feats) there should be a limit to the type of undead that can be created, or a level-dependent prerequisite for each feat in the chain.
Does Craft Construct grant the ability to anyone with a High Roll?
The types of undead to be created can remain limited (just like there are no Crafting instructions for Inevitables).
Each undead can also have an appropriate level pre-requisite (as opposed to the current Create Undead requirements, which are much too high). Just like golems.
And each undead can have a unique spell pre-requisite, once again like constructs do. If something requires Bestow Curse, Cause Fear, and Gentle Repose (like my example mummy), I think it remains fairly clear that black necromancy is involved.I really don't think there should be a feat chain. Not only does that ask high-level necromancers to use up too many feats just to keep making relevant undead, Craft Construct doesn't require extra feats.
You keep comparing this to Craft Construct, but I don't feel they are the same. Comparing Undead to Constructs is like comparing apples to oranges. The circumstances for their creation are nothing alike.
Constructs never existed as a single living thing, and they never had a soul. Even the flesh golem is stitched together from parts of living things. In folklore, the golem was crafted from parts and animated magically or by science. As such, Craft Construct should be able to work for any type of golem as long as the crafter has the necessary materials to create the golem.
This is similar to other Item Creation feats. You get the pieces, perform the task, and the item is created.
Undead are not composed solely of inert materials. They are composed mostly of negative material and/or the former creatures soul. They are not even consistent in construction, as some are corporeal, and others are not. Undead can also vary in appearance due to something specific that happened as a result of their death. This variation is what makes it problematic to have a single feat apply to the creation of all undead.
Sure, basic undead such as skeletons and zombies are just animated corpses which work fine in terms of a Craft Undead feat. But beyond them, you have a lot of variation.
By granting a single feat for undead creation, it is assumed that all necromancers are sufficiently knowledgeable about all types of undead. I see no reason why a necromancer who is familiar with creating zombies (like a Voodoo Houngan) would automatically also know how to create a Wraith. There should be some sort of progression - a feat chain, a series of Knowledge Skills, a series of prerequisites, etc. to make this work in game.
I disagree that the spells to create permanent undead are too high a level. Necromancers get Animate Undead early on, which is plenty useful. Making a permanent undead creature should be a major task for the Necromancer, and should be reserved for those of high level.
The spells function just fine in terms of creating undead. But if using a feat to accomplish this is necessary, more needs to go into this feat than a blanket statement that applies to all undead types.
Don't know,
the more I read and think about it, maybe the processes is best left as-is.
The issue of intelligent undead is...well, an issue. (in that you should not be able to just MAKE them)
And, I'm sorry but animate dead or at least the ability to accesses negative material and infuse it in a dead body MUST be a requirement. It's just gotta be there somehow...
Don't know,
the more I read and think about it, maybe the processes is best left as-is.
The issue of intelligent undead is...well, an issue. (in that you should not be able to just MAKE them)
How is making them in a process similar to a Construct or Wondrous item any less difficult than casting Create Greater Undead?
By granting a single feat for undead creation, it is assumed that all necromancers are sufficiently knowledgeable about all types of undead. I see no reason why a necromancer who is familiar with creating zombies (like a Voodoo Houngan) would automatically also know how to create a Wraith.
Actually, that's one of the problems I have with the Create Undead and Create Greater undead spells. With crafting, you can have different pre-requisites, so that knowing how to make a ghoul doesn't automatically tell you how to make a mummy. Using a feat, it would even be possible to have undead that can only be created by a particular class, or can only be created by different classes working together (or something like a Mystic Theurge). Clay Golems are created by Clerics. Other Golems are made by wizards. Just having a block of clay and the Craft Construct Feat is not enough.
Larry, I do find it interesting that the things you are worried about a Craft Undead feat doing are exactly the things I think are wrong with the current system.
And, I'm sorry but animate dead or at least the ability to accesses negative material and infuse it in a dead body MUST be a requirement. It's just gotta be there somehow...
People with the feat would have that ability. You have to have a caster level, and either be a Negative-Energy channeling cleric (or Blackguard, I guess) (which means having experience with Negative Energy), or study Necromancy in greater than average detail (have spell focus).
As for Animate Dead being a prerequisite: You'll notice that Animate Objects is only required for one type of construct. Hell, Golems are said to require an Earth spirit, but there's no elemental summoning required to create them.|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Larry, I do find it interesting that the things you are worried about a Craft Undead feat doing are exactly the things I think are wrong with the current system.
I just find the creation of undead as the result of a spell easier to accept than as the result of a feat. Spells imply magic occurs, which I believe is necessary to create undead.
I'm not saying it wouldn't work as a feat, just that a single feat that applies to all undead is too simplistic an approach. Earlier, you mentioned that multiple feats would lead to Necromancers' inability to choose other feats. I think multiple feats would do the opposite, by giving the Necromancer feats to strive for as he reaches higher levels. Imagine the talk around the table: "When I get to 9th level, I'll be able to create incorporeal undead!"
I still fail to see how undead creation via feat and creation ritual involving several spells and dead body as prerequisites doesn't fit the dark magic ritual that Create Undead and Create Greater Undead do.
For construct you must obtain a suitable vessel and then bind an usually unwilling elemental spirit to provide energy to animation magics.
For undead you must obtain a dead body and bind either an unwilling spirit snatched on it's way to another world or allow an all too willing dark spirit to animate the body or to rise from it.
Either way the caster does the same thing. He one way or another binds a spirit to the world (prime material) and tries to establish control over it, although undead creation is much more ghastly work. Sometimes the lines between these two became blurred in later Monster Manuals.
Flesh golem animates once living body with an elemental sirit.
Nimblewright (MM2) is quite intelligent.
Ironforge wyrm (Draconomicon) is a construct animated by dragon spirit.
Grisgol (MM3) is a construct animated by a trapped lich.
Corpse Gatherer (MM2) is technically a walking graveyard
Flesh Colossus (Epic Level Handbook) is made from mashed Zombies.
Of course, I'm dealing with splat books, but it shows how the nature of the undead and constructs was hardly as clearly separated as the D&D went on. I'm just trying to point at possible certain common traits.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Constructs never existed as a single living thing, and they never had a soul. Even the flesh golem is stitched together from parts of living things. In folklore, the golem was crafted from parts and animated magically or by science.
WRONG. From the Monster Manual, edition 3.5:
"The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem's creator."That constructs and undead have some classic differences provides zero basis for protesting craft-feat mechanics. Wands are also different from Constructs, and yet the crafting mechanic not only works fine but...strange...there are few, if any, protesting the matter. FYI, wand creation back in AD&D was handled by a particular spell. And it was a clumsy mechanic then for the same reasons undead creation presently is.
Actually, if you read my post, I am correct. Constructs never existed as a SINGLE living thing. They are a conglomeration of parts from different sources. A bound spirit is just another "ingredient" in the construct mix. This makes them more similar to your wand analogy than to undead.
Undead existed as a single being prior to undeath. This is a huge difference.
Undead are not composed solely of inert materials. They are composed mostly of negative material and/or the former creatures soul. They are not even consistent in construction, as some are corporeal, and others are not. Undead can also vary in appearance due to something specific that happened as a result of their death. This variation is what makes it problematic to have a single feat apply to the creation of all undead.So what? Constructs are also highly inconsistent in construction. The variation in what caused a creature’s death is EXACTLY what makes Craft Feat construction superior to the present spell-creation method. Because under a craft feat system it is easier to specify that particular undead must be created from corpses that died through particular means.
I'm not talking about the inconsistency in construction. Undead come from a single being who was formerly a living thing. Constructs, regardless of their make up, are pieced together from several different ingredients.
And I'm not saying the spell creation method is superior, only that it makes more sense than creating a single feat to create undead of all types. A feat chain would be my recommendation if a change is warranted.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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The issue of intelligent undead...
For what reason? There are certainly no problems with it from a game balance standpoint. From a flavor standpoint, the creation of intelligent creatures is standard fantasy fare. One can ALREADY under 3.5 create both intelligent constructs AND undead.
From a game standpoint, it is mechanically OK. From a flavor standpoint, including creature ecology and the origins of the undead creatures used in campaigns, it detracts from the drama.
Rogue: "Oh Look. It's Lord Soth! Run for your lives!"
Necromancer: "No worries. I made a Death Knight last week."I don't know about your campaigns, but intelligent undead in the games I played in were mysterious creatures with a tragic past. Not a creation of a necromancer with some spare time on his hands.
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I just find the creation of undead as the result of a spell easier to accept than as the result of a feat. Spells imply magic occurs, which I believe is necessary to create undead.
Item Creation feats require spells, usually more than one, and the spells have to be cast every day of the creation process.
I'm not saying it wouldn't work as a feat, just that a single feat that applies to all undead is too simplistic an approach.
Right now, a grand total of three spells do that. Is going to one feat all that different?
If anything, having different spell requirements for each undead to be created would make it less simplistic.
Earlier, you mentioned that multiple feats would lead to Necromancers' inability to choose other feats. I think multiple feats would do the opposite, by giving the Necromancer feats to strive for as he reaches higher levels. Imagine the talk around the table: "When I get to 9th level, I'll be able to create incorporeal undead!"
With different spell and Caster Level requirements for each undead, this would still be true.
I don't know about your campaigns, but intelligent undead in the games I played in were mysterious creatures with a tragic past. Not a creation of a necromancer with some spare time on his hands.
Do your campaigns have Create Undead and Create Greater Undead? Because if they do, a variety of self-aware undead are the creations of bored necromancers.
Rogue: "Oh Look. It's Lord Soth! Run for your lives!"
Necromancer: "No worries. I made a Death Knight last week."I don't know about your campaigns, but intelligent undead in the games I played in were mysterious creatures with a tragic past. Not a creation of a necromancer with some spare time on his hands.
Heh. I've had a total of one (1) death knight in my homebrew campaign; finding out where he came from was part of a major story arc. Research finally revealed that the thing's creation required a powerful evil high priest, a special Abyssal temple, and a special altar. The characters then tracked down the temple's location and tried to find the high priest's identity by threatening to destroy the altar, assuming the villain would come in person to protect it.
That story would work equally well with a feat-creation or spell-creation mechanic.
Was Lichman who wrote that, not me.
Either way. The point is, creation of intelligent undead by spell or feat doesn't have to "cheapen" them if you don't let it -- just add prerequisites, foci, and components to taste.
Shoot, my death knight, Sir Amador, was a paladin who died fighting for good. His body was dug up and he was forced into servitude as a death knight by the very forces he'd spent his life opposing. The standard, "Oh, I did this all to myself by being tricked by evil! Woe is me!" is OK in isolated examples, but can become cliche really quickly.
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[a Craft Undead feat that allowed a necromancer to create self-willed or mindless undead that are enhanced with special feats or templates, and don't count towards some limit] would be nice. However, if there is no limit, undead would have to cost more, the same way constructs and Planar Allies do. One of the reason undead are so cheap under the existing system is that only so many can be controlled, and most just can't be permanently controlled at all.
Sure. I'd like to see a two-tiered system: Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead all set as temporary spells with command limits -- a command limit shared by all three spells optimally. These spells would allow a necromancer to create undead on the fly during a combat, but he wouldn't use these spells to stock a dungeon.
Then a Craft Undead feat as described above. Undead created by this spell wouldn't necessarily be under the command of the Necromancer. Mindless undead would be responsive to commands from their creator, much like golems, while sentient undead would be self-willed and the necromancer would have to negotiate with them to gain loyal service.
I'd like to see a two-tiered system: Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead all set as temporary spells with command limits -- a command limit shared by all three spells optimally.
That would be great. The power level of undead created by those spells is in line with Summon Monster, despite general use outside of combat. Making them faster to cast, and temporary would make them a nice necromancy version of summoning. This has been discussed in the thread. Either, as you suggest, the existing spells could be made temporary, or a new chain from I-IX could be created and the exisiting spells discarded.
Either, as you suggest, the existing spells could be made temporary, or a new chain from I-IX could be created and the exisiting spells discarded.
Animate Dead I: Human commoner skeleton, kobold zombie, 1d3 kobold skeletons, etc.
Animate Dead II: Owlbear skeleton, bugbear zombie, etc.Animate Dead III: Ghoul, troll skeleton, ogre zombie, etc.
Animate Dead IV: Allip, ghast, shadow, wyvern zombie, etc.
Animate Dead V: Mummy, vampire spawn, wight, etc.
Animate Dead VI: Cinderspawn, wraith, etc.
Animate Dead VII: Bleakborn, bodak, breathdrinker, spectre, storm giant skeleton, etc.
Animate Dead VIII: Caller in darkness, mohrg, slow shadow, etc.
Animate Dead IX: Crimson death, devourer, drowned, dread wraith, etc.
Either, as you suggest, the existing spells could be made temporary, or a new chain from I-IX could be created and the exisiting spells discarded.Animate Dead I: Human commoner skeleton, kobold zombie, 1d3 kobold skeletons, etc.
Animate Dead II: Owlbear skeleton, bugbear zombie, etc.
Animate Dead III: Ghoul, troll skeleton, ogre zombie, etc.
Animate Dead IV: Allip, ghast, shadow, wyvern zombie, etc.
Animate Dead V: Mummy, vampire spawn, wight, etc.
Animate Dead VI: Cinderspawn, wraith, etc.
Animate Dead VII: Bleakborn, bodak, breathdrinker, spectre, storm giant skeleton, etc.
Animate Dead VIII: Caller in darkness, mohrg, slow shadow, etc.
Animate Dead IX: Crimson death, devourer, drowned, dread wraith, etc.
That's rather similar to what I sent to KQ, yes. Let's hope I can get it published.
Larry, I do find it interesting that the things you are worried about a Craft Undead feat doing are exactly the things I think are wrong with the current system.I just find the creation of undead as the result of a spell easier to accept than as the result of a feat. Spells imply magic occurs, which I believe is necessary to create undead.
I'm not saying it wouldn't work as a feat, just that a single feat that applies to all undead is too simplistic an approach. Earlier, you mentioned that multiple feats would lead to Necromancers' inability to choose other feats. I think multiple feats would do the opposite, by giving the Necromancer feats to strive for as he reaches higher levels. Imagine the talk around the table: "When I get to 9th level, I'll be able to create incorporeal undead!"
What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing.
Something like that should be more then a dice roll and some money.
What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing. Something like that should be more then a dice roll and some money.
A spell can be even more simplistic than a feat. Either way -- spell or feat -- can have whatever prerequisites the DM requires, including the ones you've listed as "roleplaying exercises." Neither a spell nor feat mechanic precludes any roleplaying requirements or fluff whatsoever. It just adds another requirement, so that, in your example, some fool with no training can't just chuck some dust of whatever on the blessed bandages -- he needs to acquire a feat as well, to represent his dark knowledge of such things.
What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing.
Except it's not that right now, either. Right now you cast Create Undead with a corpse and some brackish water. As Kirth pointed out, its really as complex as you want it to be, and a feat gives better ability to specify interesting pre-requisites.
Except it's not that right now, either. Right now you cast Create Undead with a corpse and some brackish water. As Kirth pointed out, its really as complex as you want it to be, and a feat gives better ability to specify interesting pre-requisites.What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing.
For skellies and zombies, a simple casting and raising them out of the ground is fine though...I was speaking more of the intelligent kind. Just dono about the feat thing though, it just seems so mechanical...
Well, the feat just represents the knowledge of the animation rituals, just like construct creation feat, but you may need to find proper recepie in arcane tomes to make anything with it. It's all the same with any construct. The fact that you have the feat doesn't have to mean that you can automatically make iron golems if the DM doesn't approve. The feats are to be mechanic just like that, the flavour is upon the players. That's also the reason why the feats are to be placed in monster feats section and should require DM's approval IMO.
If I'm looking at it from the other point of view then I can make a Mohrg (An animated corpse of a mass murderer who never...) from the body of an old kind lady who died peacefully yesterday with CL 18 Create Undead spell. Unless the DM has something to say to this it's just as mechanic as trying it with a feat. Well, actually now we have a chance to add special requirements to creation requirements.
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Either, as you suggest, the existing spells could be made temporary, or a new chain from I-IX could be created and the exisiting spells discarded.Animate Dead I: Human commoner skeleton, kobold zombie, 1d3 kobold skeletons, etc.
Animate Dead II: Owlbear skeleton, bugbear zombie, etc.
Animate Dead III: Ghoul, troll skeleton, ogre zombie, etc.
Animate Dead IV: Allip, ghast, shadow, wyvern zombie, etc.
Animate Dead V: Mummy, vampire spawn, wight, etc.
Animate Dead VI: Cinderspawn, wraith, etc.
Animate Dead VII: Bleakborn, bodak, breathdrinker, spectre, storm giant skeleton, etc.
Animate Dead VIII: Caller in darkness, mohrg, slow shadow, etc.
Animate Dead IX: Crimson death, devourer, drowned, dread wraith, etc.
Yes, this please.
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For skellies and zombies, a simple casting and raising them out of the ground is fine though...I was speaking more of the intelligent kind. Just dono about the feat thing though, it just seems so mechanical...Except it's not that right now, either. Right now you cast Create Undead with a corpse and some brackish water. As Kirth pointed out, its really as complex as you want it to be, and a feat gives better ability to specify interesting pre-requisites.What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing.
It's not just skeletons and zombies that you can make with a spell, though. Right now, as the rules currently stand, you can make a mummy with a spell.
Create Undead
It allows you to make:
ghoul
ghast
mummy
mohrg
depending on you caster level.
Material Component:
A clay pot filled with grave dirt and another filled with brackish water. The spell must be cast on a dead body. You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 50 gp per HD of the undead to be created into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless shells.
Allows you to make:
shadow
wraith
spectre
devourer
depending on your caster level.
Same Material Component.
With a feat, you can give each undead unique requirements for creation, including multiple spells. You can make it harder to create the more powerful undead.
And not every type of undead needs to be able to be crafted with the feat.
As it stands, lichs and vampires cannot be created via the create undead or create greater undead spells.
This thread reminds me of the old corpse dance spell.
Has that been translated to 3.5 at all?
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I still feel a single feat is too simplistic an approach. I'd like to hear KQ's take on it, if they respond.
Making it a single feat, with separate requirements for each type of undead would be a very long entry. You'd have to list every prerequisite for every type of undead, then all the spells needed to create it.
I still believe a feat chain would be better for these purposes. Maybe something like:
Craft Minor Undead
Prerequisites: Caster Level 3, Non-Good Alignment, able to cast Animate Dead or ability to rebuke undead.
Craft Corporeal Undead
Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Craft Minor Undead
Craft Incorporeal Undead
Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Craft Minor Undead
The types of undead each feat allows the user to create and spells necessary to create them should be listed under each feat.
Also, a disclaimer indicating that any type of undead utilizing a template (Vampire, Ghost, Lich, etc) cannot be created in this manner.
This series of feats would help with Ross' concern that the current spells for creating undead are too high level (I still disagree with it) and with the variety of undead that exist.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Except it's not that right now, either. Right now you cast Create Undead with a corpse and some brackish water. As Kirth pointed out, its really as complex as you want it to be, and a feat gives better ability to specify interesting pre-requisites.What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing.
The spell works fine in 3.5 because of the high caster level required to create undead. It's not hard to accept that a 15th level necromancer has the knowledge to create a Death Knight. It IS hard to accept that a lower level necromancer with the feat and a couple scrolls would be able to create a Death Knight.
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The spell works fine in 3.5 because of the high caster level required to create undead. It's not hard to accept that a 15th level necromancer has the knowledge to create a Death Knight. It IS hard to accept that a lower level necromancer with the feat and a couple scrolls would be able to create a Death Knight.Except it's not that right now, either. Right now you cast Create Undead with a corpse and some brackish water. As Kirth pointed out, its really as complex as you want it to be, and a feat gives better ability to specify interesting pre-requisites.What he said....too simplistic to make it a feat. It should exist as a spell or in the case of more advanced/intelligent undead, exist as a roleplaying exercise. i.e. so you want to make a mummy to guard a treasure horde....well first you have to travel to the sands of time for a sample of dust of whatever and then have the bandages blessed by the priests Amon-whathisface then this that and the other thing.
Unless the pre-reqs for creating a Death Knight included CL 15.