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As a side note, let's leave the snarky and conspiratorial tone out of some of the responses, it's really unnecessary. There is no evidence that Paizo has been trying to pull one over on its customers.
Anyway, that's it for me on the topic, carry on :)
Sorry - didn't mean to be snarky. I just came to despise the "if our side seems to have less support it is because the other side is louder - not stronger" argument. It stalled work in several projects (mainly on the university) where I was involved untill a point was reached where flipping a coin seemed to be the only option left to reach any decision.
Again - sorry - I really mean ist.
They're coming for your Forward section next, James. And those 3 pages of ads. And the 2 page pre-gen characters...
Been there, done that. Didn't get a T-shirt but did kinda get labelled a troublemaker of sorts who is never happy.
I find the Pathfinder's Journal to be like the cartoon section of the Sunday newspaper. I read it first and I like doing that, but it is not the reason I buy the newspaper. I would not miss those cartoons if they were gone, but I would be upset if the first and second sections of the newspaper were shortened to make room for more cartoons.
Disappointed so few agree with me, but I will offer this advice on how the Journal can be improved from my perspective.
1) Have the Journal be relevant to the issue at hand. Give an overview of Korvosa and her districts in Edge. Since Seven Days deals with travellers from far away, provide an overview of trade and various relations between Korvosa, Chelix, or anywhere else touched upon by the module. Provide a look at the city's underbelly in Old Korvosa and organized crime during Escape. All of that has the same travelogue effect while being much more useful than what was published, even if the actual material might be relevent sometime in the future.
2) Have the narrator be appropriate to each issue if it is different. In the above examples, all three Journals would have been about Korvosa, but each Journal entry would be better with the voice appropriate to it rather than just one character commenting.
3) My objection to game fiction is not that it has fluff (I personally find much "Crunch" equally useless - giving a name to yet another 'take 2 skills at +2' Feat is useless), it's that I find game fiction to be a very ineffective way at communicating to me something that is useful. There is at most 2 pages worth of good information in the 6 pages of the Journal. The other 4 pages are wasted words.
As a good example of in character writing, I once again point to the Van Richten Guides in Ravenloft, or to a lesser extent Bruce Heard's Princess Ark articles in Dragon long, long ago. In fact, I think the perfect example of "in character" writing is TSR's Gazeteer 3 - The Principalities of Glantri by Bruce Heard. That has plenty of in character narration, and does a much better job giving me the feel of a setting than anything I've seen in the Journal so far.
Thanks for your time.
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Disappointed so few agree with me, but I will offer this advice on how the Journal can be improved from my perspective.
1) Have the Journal be relevant to the issue at hand.
2) Have the narrator be appropriate to each issue if it is different.3) My objection to game fiction is not that it has fluff it's that I find game fiction to be a very ineffective way at communicating to me something that is useful. There is at most 2 pages worth of good information in the 6 pages of the Journal. The other 4 pages are wasted words.
1) I disagree, If the journal were to be in the same area of the adventure, we would have just as many people, if not more complaining that the journal is limiting the open-endedness of the adventure
2)as long as it's a good story thats all that matters to me, I would prefer the same sets of narrators come back every little while. I am a big character-ization person, the character staying the same throughout the story is an important thing for me.
3) Did you find this in the last journal? I found less than a page that was useless to the world at large, and it has resulted in 4 wiki articles already. The Kaer Manga one only had 2-3 sentences that I havn't already used in a home game.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, quite the opposite, I'm trying to see your side from your eyes, because it is a different view than I see things
Its time to step out of "crunch mode" and enter quality game mode, storytelling mode, great gamemastery mode. Asking the editor-in-chief to be more surgically utilitarian about page space is a bit like asking filmwriters or a DM to just cut to the chase. Like telling Mozart he's used too many notes in the composition. Think spectrum - there is a place for all of this richness within Pathfinder.
The dissatisfaction is not, in my case at least, a desire for more crunch. It's a desire for more information-rich fluff. I would rather have had, say, a giantish creation myth in RotRL #4 than a couple of pages of fiction about an NPC I won't be using in a part of the setting not germane to the AP.
_Classic Monsters Revisited_ showcased the kind of fluff I personally benefit from the most. There's not much in the way of mechanics, but the world background material is very information dense and useful. The Journal seems thin by comparison.
But if it makes the majority of readers happy, I don't have a problem with it; continued success of the line is important to all of us.
Mary
Director of Brand Strategy
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The dissatisfaction is not, in my case at least, a desire for more crunch. It's a desire for more information-rich fluff. I would rather have had, say, a giantish creation myth in RotRL #4 than a couple of pages of fiction about an NPC I won't be using in a part of the setting not germane to the AP.
Since most of the PF Journals have foreshadowed places that the PCs would go two or three issues later, this was most helpful for CotCT, as previews of Korvosa, the Cinderlands and Belkzen were all included. If Eando could have had some prequel adventures in western Varisia before heading up the Yondabakari, it might have been more useful for RotR. As it is though, to date, the entry on Kaer Maga is the single most plentiful source of info on the location (even more than one can find in a module set there) and the same can be said for Urglin. I see it as a way of spreading the fluff around so that people who aren't just reading the books for the one adventure path can get more than a narrow glimpse of the world that happens to be relevant to that one plot. In any case, it's only 6 or 8 pages an issue, so whether one reads it or not, or whether they get rid of it or keep it, it shouldn't severely alter the quality of the product for most people.
The dissatisfaction is not, in my case at least, a desire for more crunch. It's a desire for more information-rich fluff. I would rather have had, say, a giantish creation myth in RotRL #4 than a couple of pages of fiction about an NPC I won't be using in a part of the setting not germane to the AP...But if it makes the majority of readers happy, I don't have a problem with it; continued success of the line is important to all of us.
Mary
What Mary said.
It's the last thing I read. I retain that information the least. It's in the least handy format for easy reference.
My recommendation: put them in the blog. Use the saved space for expanded encounters, more background information, DM Tips, etc.
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I love the journals. Not only are Eando's adventures an entertaining read, they have been instrumental in helping me create the "feel" of Golarion in the games I have run. For example his visit to Korvosa and encounter with a Hell Knight were more helpful to me in making Korvosa come alive than the Korvosa article in Pathfinder #7. If they opted to drop the journals I would be disappointed. That said, I can empathize with those that want more adventure content over fiction. I know some changes in format are looming, so we will see what they do. If they do opt to drop the journal, I hope they find another place to include it in one of the other Pathfinder subscription lines.
Brent, you may not have known it, but thanks for proving my point. That Journal encounter with the Hellknight in Korvosa doesn't take place in the actual Pathfinder issues dealing with Korvosa. It happens in the previous Adventure Path.
The only reason I know this is because I looked through Pathfinder # 6 (because my game store didn't get the new Pathfinder yet, but I could browse through older issues they still had).
I am not paying another $20 for a 6 page article. $20 is a lot of money especially for 6 issues which will set you back $120 plus tax for the entire AP. If an AP is intriguing enough, I am willing to follow it. But I will not buy every single issue of Pathfinder just because.
I still didn't like the writing in the journal, but had it been in any of the Crimson Throne issues, at least it would have been somewhat useful.
... offer this advice on how the Journal can be improved from my perspective...
As someone who has enjoyed the articles I've got to say that your advice is excellent and would significanty increase my appreciation of the journals.
As someone who is yet to purchase any of the adventures paths (so my opinion can be taken with tht in mind) I am considering getting into them and exploring Paizo's own campaign setting, so I am interested in the layout of the Adventures Paths.
For me, unless it's flavour text like a paragraph or two at the start of a chapter or a sidebar I read it last. Usually I don't read it at all. If a gazateer or such is written from the POV of a character (like the 3rd ed Ravenloft Gazateers) that's fine - it's pertinent information, but a Privateer Press style exposition liberally spread thoughout the product - no thank you (No Quarter is no longer on my 'must buy' list although admittedly that is now a wargame setting rather than a D&D setting).
I guess that's putting me in the 'con' camp...
Cheers
Mark
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I like the journals the way they are.
Admittedly I am a subscriber and therefore don't have to purchase back issues in order to get a full picture of places desribed in previous journal entries. So I sympathize with the proposal to keep journal places and AP places in sync in each issue.
Apart from that don't change it, please!
- Günther
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Brent, you may not have known it, but thanks for proving my point. That Journal encounter with the Hellknight in Korvosa doesn't take place in the actual Pathfinder issues dealing with Korvosa. It happens in the previous Adventure Path.
The only reason I know this is because I looked through Pathfinder # 6 (because my game store didn't get the new Pathfinder yet, but I could browse through older issues they still had).
I am not paying another $20 for a 6 page article. $20 is a lot of money especially for 6 issues which will set you back $120 plus tax for the entire AP. If an AP is intriguing enough, I am willing to follow it. But I will not buy every single issue of Pathfinder just because.
I still didn't like the writing in the journal, but had it been in any of the Crimson Throne issues, at least it would have been somewhat useful.
Actually I find it more usefull to have them before the adventure path starts this way it gives you a chance to get an idea of a place before you use it. Case in point it was the reading of that journal entry that got me interested in runing COTCT for my players.
Also if im not mistaken you do go to Korvosa albeit briefly in Rotrl so saying that one is no use in that adventure path is a tad misleading
Love the Journal.
Of course, I don't think we need to discuss the absolute folly of using an internet messageboard thread to determine something that only proper statistical analysis can provide, right? Right. (Especially when the messageboard shouting-down uber-fans give very skewed results... not surprisingly.)
Sad. Just sad Arnwyn.
Back to the topic at hand, I like the journal so far for the reasons already mentioned.
Actually I find it more usefull to have them before the adventure path starts this way it gives you a chance to get an idea of a place before you use it. Case in point it was the reading of that journal entry that got me interested in runing COTCT for my players.
I think he does have something of a point. Some people rotate DMs and it sort of makes sense that the material is relevant to the DM that happens to actually be running the adventure.
Also if im not mistaken you do go to Korvosa albeit briefly in Rotrl so saying that one is no use in that adventure path is a tad misleading
I think it was actually Magnimar.
The Journals themselves are fine, I just don't want them in the AP books. They have not provided any value to me in working these APs for my players, and I would much rather have had more information about Korvosa in APs 7-9 and perhaps another encounter or two in AP 10 instead. I am sure if the Journals were combined into (and even fleshed out further) some kind of companion piece for those that enjoy this kind of thing you'd have a whole new book to sell for $19.99.
I have no problem with the journals. However I would like to see a little bit more support, crunchwise, with all that fluff. Take the Bloatmages for instance (way cool by the way). They even had a sidebar. But what if I want to play one, or have one oppose my players.
I know, you can't throw a full prestigeclass in as a sidebar, but a feat perhaps, or one of those traits you just started using?
Consider me an oddity in this discussion (as I am in most discussions), and not feeling strongly either way about the journal. I don't dislike them. I've only read the first one, so how could I. It's six pages are currently there, mostly waiting for me to read them later. That's the plan anyway. I want Eando's story arc to finish before I pick them up and read through them.
Do I think they are a waste of space?
No, though I've yet to read them. I look at them as something to be enjoyed on a Sunday afternoon once I have them all.
Could they be written in such a way to improve the AP they appear in?
Probably. I can relate to the OP's suggestion to making them relevant to each particular issue instead of foreshadowing something in a later volume or revealing something in a previous volume.
But at the moment, I'm not dissatisfied with the AP's or the journals. I'll report when I read them all.
The Journal is the first thing I read when I receive my copy! I wasn't a big fan of fiction in Dragon, but I like the serialized nature of the journal far better than stand alone stories. Definitely worth keeping!
Sad. Just sad Arnwyn.
Do you have a problem with the concept of statistics and proper market research? That's very creepy, Sunderstone. But in any case, James adequately responded to my concerns, thanks.
Back to the topic at hand, I like the journal so far for the reasons already mentioned.
But thanks for helping me with my point anyways.
I was talking about the shouting down uber fans as you mentioned. It wasnt needed, every forum has them.
But whatever.
I like the journals. They give the GM (me) some additional flavour that I can throw into the adventures and also help distinguish Golarion as it's own world.
I told my players about the bloatmages, troll oracles (guts and all), and sin-themed magic and they loved it.
As for adding crunch to them, not really a big deal for me. I use Savage Worlds now as my rules-system of choice so usually the fluff is enough for me to make encounters or NPC's different and unique.
I love the journals the way they are - pure fluff. (As long as we get a Bloatmage PrC somewhere! :))
They are evocative, well-written, and do very well in conveying the mood of the setting as a whole.
So please, keep them :).
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I would like to chime in on behalf of the current Journal. As a few have already said, the early journals weren't as engrossing but I've warmed to Eando as his story has progressed. Even when my players aren't reading them, they give a great feel for concepts that are easily used in games, or even just as a mention (shop gossip about the stone dragon or war mammoths in Korvosa, for example).
I must, however, speak out against plans to have less connected short stories by different writers each issue. Other posters have mentioned that they "didn't like the short fiction in Dragon" and that "they really like the way the serial nature of the journal fits in Pathfinder". I support this idea; it took a while for many of us to warm to Eando and the Journal, and the ongoing story gives readers an easy hook into each month, as well as allowing larger themes of Golarion to play out over several issues. Replacing this with individual stories mean that precious space in each issue has to be filled with introduction and setting, and would not really be long enough to show much or allow any real involvement in the story. It's hard to care about fiction without a chance to care for the settings/characters. I understand the need to use different writers and that stand-alone stories would allow you to explore a wider area of Golarion, but please at least hire on authors for multi-issue runs or have a revolving cast of interlinked writers and characters, similar to the way the 3.5 D&D novels used the various iconics.
Finally, I argue against restricting the Journal only to material about the current AP. Although background setting is important, so far the other pages of Pathfinder and the accompanying products released through the Chronicles line (Guide to Korvoa for example) do plenty on the subject, and the Guide is an important source of information on Golarion at large. Casually dropped rumours and factoids about far-off locales give the players the feel that their PC's exist in a massive living world rather than a perspex box around the city or region with no interaction with the outside world.
Also, it's a good read.
TWB
I like the journals myself. It took me quite a while to warm to them but now I enjoy them a lot, sometimes more than the support articles. I can see why some people would not be fans of it but I think it is still an important window into Golarion.
That said I can imagine a time when they won't be as useful, when most of the world of Golarion is already well detailed. It is a long way off but when paizo already has hoards of detail on most of the locations in the pathfinder world then I believe that the journals may start to lose their usefulness however I do not see that day coming any time soon I am talking about many many years in the future.
As for keeping it relative to the adventure path I respectfully disagree with those who say that the journals aren't. I feel that they are pretty relevant to the AP. We've seen how big golarion is all of the journal entries have been in the region of the AP. It's not like we're reading about the misadventures of someone in the Mwangi Expanse or Quadira. The journal helps flesh out the area surrounding the AP but perhaps not directly touched on by it. I use it as a way to help with sidetreks for when the adventurers wander of the beaten path much like the regional Gazzetters.
I appreciate that many people may feel differently but I personal enjoy the journals and see them as a valid part of Pathfinder. One vote pro.
Since I'm in the process of writing a six-episode story arc for the Pathfinder Journal, you can put another mark in the "pro" column.
I've been reading this thread with interest. While I realize that not all gamers like related fiction, I want to write a story that has a good chance of appealing to the gamers who DO.
I don't intend to write a travelogue. This will be a story told in six parts, set in the area in which the new adventure is set. So in reading this forum, I've been going beyond comments on the Pathfinder Journal and reading what readers say they'd like to see in Golarian fiction, and also what sort of books they're reading now. Here are some general observations:
* Readers are not looking for high fantasy or swash-buckling, Indianna-Jones style adventure. The preferred tone is dark.
* Setting is important, but so is story. Readers would rather have an unexpected, innovative story than one that feels familiar.
* Speaking of familiar, readers want a story that FEELS like the world of Golarion. This means that Forgotten Realms or DragonLance fantasy with the serial numbers filed off and the proper nouns changes Will Not Do. Other storytelling elements aside, a story will succeed only to the extent that it captures the setting.
Does this sound about right?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Does this sound about right?
Sounds right to me! The Pathfinder's Journal has been my the first thing I read since the first issue and I can't wait to see your contribution. Will it be called Pathfinder's Journal, or will it be an entirely different format of serial fiction?
Does this sound about right?
Given that Eando is a Pathfinder, an occasional Indiana Jones type adventure might be appropriate. Just not often. Otherwise, you're about on target.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Does this sound about right?
Given that Eando is a Pathfinder, an occasional Indiana Jones type adventure might be appropriate. Just not often. Otherwise, you're about on target.
I think that Eando is out of the picture after PF18. My understanding is that Elaine is writing the fiction for AP4, but I could be wrong on this.
I enjoy the Journals and other articles in the back of the books the most. They may not be the most well written or organized articles I have seen come from Paizo, but each article fleshes out and molds Golarion just a bit more. By describing the world from a first hand perspective, you absorb details that are harder to get through flat descriptions. The 2 Journals encountering the Shoanti gave a lot of information about the culture, practices, and society of the group that I wouldn't have deemed important unless I had been shown. Later articles included more raw info on the Shoanti and by that point my interest was peeked.
I first encountered the Journals style narrative for describing the campaign setting back in the 2E Darksun setting and that still paints a better picture for me that just telling me what's in the picture. I enjoy history and I can get a lot of information out of history books, but for a fantasy setting I have a hard time absorbing much from a fantasy 'history' book (i.e. Silmarillion [did I butcher the name?]). A narrative (The Hobbit) provides a rock for my imagination to build from and later explore the history behind the setting.
My problems with the Journals come from a feeling of just blindly being dragged by the nose. Where is he going? This wasn't really answered until you find out that he just blindly follows his compass. Is he exploring or adventuring? At first it seemed like he was exploring mysterious sites, but now he just seems to be trying to survive each encounter (adventure). What about the other inconsistancies? The whole investigation of the ioun stone was interesting, but just ended up being a 'regular' magic item. His behaviour seems to change gradually in the stories, this could be because his character is developing, but it feels more like he is just 'being developed.' And is he writing in a journal about the days events or is this a first hand story?
Personally, I imagined the Pathfinder Society to be a loose group of intellectuals who investigate and research various mysteries in the world, not foolhardy adventurers who blindly walk into disaster after disaster just because they are following the direction on the compass. I hope the criticism is helpful.
JP
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Since I'm in the process of writing a six-episode story arc for the Pathfinder Journal, you can put another mark in the "pro" column.
I've been reading this thread with interest. While I realize that not all gamers like related fiction, I want to write a story that has a good chance of appealing to the gamers who DO.
I don't intend to write a travelogue. This will be a story told in six parts, set in the area in which the new adventure is set. So in reading this forum, I've been going beyond comments on the Pathfinder Journal and reading what readers say they'd like to see in Golarian fiction, and also what sort of books they're reading now. Here are some general observations:
* Readers are not looking for high fantasy or swash-buckling, Indianna-Jones style adventure. The preferred tone is dark.
* Setting is important, but so is story. Readers would rather have an unexpected, innovative story than one that feels familiar.
* Speaking of familiar, readers want a story that FEELS like the world of Golarion. This means that Forgotten Realms or DragonLance fantasy with the serial numbers filed off and the proper nouns changes Will Not Do. Other storytelling elements aside, a story will succeed only to the extent that it captures the setting.
Does this sound about right?
* I really don't have anything against "swash-buckling, Indianna-Jones style adventure". IMHO, it can be dark as well.
* I agreee with you here.
* Absolutely. I love my Greyhawk, and to me Golarion has some of it's elements, but I really would like a new slant on it. I don't need a bald Neutral aligned wizard sending people off to do things. As a matter of fact, I really don't want to hear about any big all powerful person sending anyone else to do anything. Some self motivating adventurers will do just fine if you ask me.
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His behaviour seems to change gradually in the stories, this could be because his character is developing, but it feels more like he is just 'being developed.' And is he writing in a journal about the days events or is this a first hand story?
This is also a byproduct of having different authors write from the same person's perspective in such a rapid succession. If you look at the journals so far, most of them so far have authors change each month.
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Here are my two coppers.
From my choice of avatar image, you can guess I happen to disagree with the original poster. I happen to like reading about the adventures of Eando Kline. In one of the adventures, he intercepted the box carrying Vorgal’s Phage, the disease the Lamia Matriarch sold to the Red mantis. Luckily Kline didn’t open the box. I like finding easter eggs like this. I hope there will be others.
In my opinion I find the stories enjoyable to read, and they give me ideas for adventures to run as a DM. In short I like the six page installments and I look forward to them every month.
This board is a big enough place for the Original poster to dislike the pathfinder journal, and for me to like the pathfinder journals.
My two coppers for what they are worth.
The journal is the first thing I go to every month. Keep them coming. For me fiction always brings a world to life more than setting books ever can.
[...]
* Readers are not looking for high fantasy or swash-buckling, Indianna-Jones style adventure. The preferred tone is dark.
* Setting is important, but so is story. Readers would rather have an unexpected, innovative story than one that feels familiar.
* Speaking of familiar, readers want a story that FEELS like the world of Golarion. This means that Forgotten Realms or DragonLance fantasy with the serial numbers filed off and the proper nouns changes Will Not Do. Other storytelling elements aside, a story will succeed only to the extent that it captures the setting.
Does this sound about right?
That sounds good to me, although I hope the tone varies from writer to writer and story to story. I prefer the darker, grittier fiction but do like to mix it up once in a while.