OK, I think I have a great idea to get new people into RPG's. WOTC ignored me with their bollox of 4E, so I'll give you my idea just in case you see it the same way I do.
To get new people into PAthfinder:
Create a line of "Quickstart Adventures".
-These are stand alone. Don't require any other books to play.
-Everything the DM needs to roll, or tell the players to do and roll, is spelled out.
-This teaches new people how to run RPG's and exposes them to the uniqueness of such RPG's in comparison to video RPG's.
-The desired outcome is to get people interested in more. To get them to buy into the fuller rules, such as the Pathfinder RPG. To give them the confidence to believe they can buy that huge book and other full fledged modules and get a life time of value out of it. To believe its worth buying and spending all that time reading those HUGE rule books.
The Crucible of Freya by Necromancer Games (yes, I know of your friendship with Clark) is a very rough version of what I am talking about. Write up a bunch of adventures, all designed to tell the DM and players everything they need to do and know for this specific adventure. Geared to get them interested in this specific aspect of the genre. To get them to buy the full rule books.
I think Fiery Dragon may have done something similar with Giants Skull and one other module.
It is a "rules primer" to teach people how to run and play tabletop RPG's, all in one book. Include a basic set of dice with each. Make them as cheap as possible. These are all aimed at drawing people in, not to make normal profit off of.
Do them in B/W. DO them on the cheapest paper possible. Then advertise your line of full color, high quality, full rules set line of books and adventures.
"You've learned the basics. Now learn to do anything you can think of."
It can work.
I think "Hollow's Last Hope" (or an adventure of similar length/scope) would be a good candidate for something like this.
For all of the things I'm not wild about with 4E, "Keep on the Shadowfell" was laid out pretty well to get newbies up and running quickly. I'm speaking of the inclusion of pregen characters, the improved Delve format, the presentation of the quick start rules and the commentary on how new DMs should try to think outside of the box to enrich the ROLE-playing aspects of the game.
Now include similar layout, better production values (paper covers = not good), artwork, and an adventure that has actual story elements & atmosphere, and Paizo has a killer hook to lure new players!
Do them in B/W. DO them on the cheapest paper possible. Then advertise your line of full color, high quality, full rules set line of books and adventures.
Actually I strongly disagree about this part. I really resented the fact that WotC used the same type of paper for the KotS booklet covers that they used for the body of those booklets and then bound them with staples.
I've only read thru the adventure once, carried it in a backpack to and from work to read at lunch for a couple days and it's already looking kind of rough. I can only imagine how it will look should I actually run it someday — it will probably be falling apart.
No.
If something is going to grab new players and attract them away from WotC, it needs to at least match the competition in the artwork department so that someone will at least find it interesting enough to pick up. Furthermore, such a quick-start is a demo for the entire company. If a company shows a lack of quality in small matters, why should I believe that they'll show better judgment in larger ones?
Just found out that WOTC may have listened after all, and better yet went with a boxed set version! I'll have to check it out even though I am not a fan of 4E! For $17.00 I don't think I can go wrong.
Just found out that WOTC may have listened after all, and better yet went with a boxed set version! I'll have to check it out even though I am not a fan of 4E! For $17.00 I don't think I can go wrong.
A boxed version of what, Keep on the Shadowfell? KotS comes in a cardstock folder with pockets that open towards the center. Inside the left half is the adventure manual, inside the other pocket are the quick-start guide and 3 poster maps. It's a nice idea but the folder design is apt to get crushed and the booklets' covers get messed up even sliding them in/out of the folder pockets.
Still $17 is a pretty good price compared to $30 at retail — it's also more in-line with the physical production quality.
i think this makes sense - do you think pregenerated characters would be a good idea Robert?
i think this makes sense - do you think pregenerated characters would be a good idea Robert?
Absolutely! Its all about making it as easy to start and learn as possible. Its easier to make new characters once you get a sesne of what effect your choices will have.
Sorry, I thought I had posted a link to the product I mentioned previously. I'll go find the link again.
It is a boxed starter set. For $17.00 (US). Due in November. I'll get the link ASAP.
Yes, I had been wondering about that missing post as well.
Go to [url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217120000[/url]
Ah, that's most certainly a different product than the one I thought You were talking about. Thanks for clarifying.
For what they claim to be including, I suspect that WotC may be taking a loss on such a product with the expectation they will recoup those funds in future sales (i.e. the old playstation/xbox trick).
My marketing suggestion: Sex + this really cool idea for stand-alones. :) Folks, it sounds cliche, but it really does sell everything if done right.
My case and point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqWOnDqQ4v8
Can you imagine: "Hi, I'm Pathfinder RPG. Hi, I'm Dungeons and Dragons." Pathfinder could be the new, sexy, hip, game... maybe. ;)
/2cp
Some of my favorite d20 lines hooked me with a free downloadable. The Wizard's Amulet, for example, or Battle on the Bay Bridge for Lame Mage's M&M adventures.
In both cases, the creators knew they had something special and were willing to show it off. I bought more Necro and Lame Mage stuff because of those two free samples...
My marketing suggestion: Sex + this really cool idea for stand-alones. :) Folks, it sounds cliche, but it really does sell everything if done right.
My case and point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqWOnDqQ4v8
Can you imagine: "Hi, I'm Pathfinder RPG. Hi, I'm Dungeons and Dragons." Pathfinder could be the new, sexy, hip, game... maybe. ;)
/2cp
Uugh, I refuse to buy products made by Apple because I utterly despise that advertising trope so much. It reeks of over-exageration, stereotyping, and making Macs out to be some sort of a snooty social club. >:|
And from that particular Wii vs. PS3 example You just posted, wouldn't 4E be the one talking about being cheap, easy and just fun?
Anyway, sex sells yeah, but for the love of all that is holy, please don't use that sort of an advertising campaign.
Anyway, sex sells yeah, but for the love of all that is holy, please don't use that sort of an advertising campaign.
*puts away plans for Pathfinder Swimsuit Calendar and Pathfinder Girls Gone Wild*
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Anyway, sex sells yeah, but for the love of all that is holy, please don't use that sort of an advertising campaign.*puts away plans for Pathfinder Swimsuit Calendar and Pathfinder Girls Gone Wild*
WHAT NO WAY PULL THEM OUT AGAIN
SEX IN FANTASY GAMING GOES WAY WAY BACK
3 Chain Mail Triangles is a full suit of armor for a female character really it is :)
Anyway, sex sells yeah, but for the love of all that is holy, please don't use that sort of an advertising campaign.*puts away plans for Pathfinder Swimsuit Calendar and Pathfinder Girls Gone Wild*
...
I'm filing for a misquote here. :PClearly I was refering to the specific use of the Mac vs. PC trope (and the Wii vs. PS2 parody) with regards to resorting to the sex angle.
Krome, golem101, and I are still waiting for Seoni in black leather with a whip. ;)
Actually, I'd add one spin to Quick Start Adventures. That would be to have at least one available for free as a .pdf download.
Of course, that said, I think the critical component is finding a way to draw people to Paizo's website in the first place.
That was actually why I mentioned D0, it was a free PDF adventure that actually got me interested in what Paizo is doing in the post-Dragon/Dungeon magazine era.
As for getting people to the site, I have two words for You:
web
comics
This doesn't mean Paizo has to make or even host one, but advertising on popular web comics would definitely raise visibility. (Though I think if Paizo hosted a quality webcomic from an author who can keep a reliable time-table that would be better still. I'd love to see a regularly running comic about the iconic characters' exploits.)
I was just checking my Gmail and found that an order had shipped from Paizo.
As my eyes were glancing over the page, I noticed all the context-sensitive links over on the right-hand side of the Gmail page:
Run a great D&D campaign?
Then get a campaign website! Show off why you're the top DM.
www.ObsidianPortal.comPlay Dungeons & Dragons?
Try the single-player browser-based fantasy RPG that's like no other...
www.sryth.comD&D Rulebook Set: $62.97
includes shipping. Dungeons & Dragons Core Rulebook Gift Set 4th
gosale.com/dungeons-dragons-coreFree Tibet *with purchase
1.Pick design 2.choose shirt 3.WOW Custom Iron-Ons on premium tees
www.Armhole.com
I don't know the ins and outs of advertising on Google, but surely this would have the potential of reaching millions of people.
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To get new people into PAthfinder:Create a line of "Quickstart Adventures".
The problem for the prospective gamer is that there are so many barriers in the way that are largely invisible to the average gamer.
1) Limited distribution at mainstream retail and visibility to mainstream prospects.
2) Substantial competition for people’s leisure time from other sources of entertainment.
3) Ruleset that requires a large time investment to learn and financial investment to “sample” the experience
4) Finding other people to play in a “niche” hobby/subculture
5) Challenge for a new DM to create an unforgettable gaming experience
I think the “quickstart” modules are a great idea, but I would say the challenge is even broader. Is there some way to restructure a basic version to overcome these barriers? Let’s think blue sky… how could you sell Pathfinder Basic at Walmart?
My case and point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqWOnDqQ4v8Can you imagine:
Yeah:
10-year-old altar girl with buttoned down dress: "I'm forf edishun. I am simple and want everyone to be frends. No one loses."
Nick Logue in bondage gear with hentacle whip and huge, bloody greatsword: "Hi, I'm Pathfinder. It's not all fun and games, you know it, I know it, why pretend it's otherwise? If you don't want to fight evil instead of be protected from it, I'm your game. I won't judge you for saying ***** or listening to metal" *does unspeakable things to 4e*
In fact, I think this could work. Without the whip and bloody sword and leather suit. And the unspeakable things would have to be reserved for the special edition. ;-)
Uugh, I refuse to buy products made by Apple because I utterly despise that advertising trope so much.
I keep away from Apple for pretty much the same reasons: They'r arrogant and seem to target arrogant people with their marketing. They give things new names and pretend they came up with the idea in the first place, they overcharge for their stuff, they're in your face with the "If you want to be hip, buy our stuff" mentality....
And from that particular Wii vs. PS3 example You just posted, wouldn't 4E be the one talking about being cheap, easy and just fun?
Nope. That would be sexual innuendo. That's a naughty thing to do. Plus, the enumeration of things they think is fun ("I have powers for every class. I have Points of Light. I have Character Builds") is more the wizards stuff.
I imagine Pathfinder being someone friendly and sexy, andwering 4e's List with "yeah, whatever. *I* am fun. I'm nice and friendly. I'll do whatever you want."
A little suggestive body language, and (mostly male) people go buy pathfinder in droves (most of them not even knowing what it is, but loving it - could be a great way to get new roleplayers) ;-)
Anyway, sex sells yeah, but for the love of all that is holy, please don't use that sort of an advertising campaign.*puts away plans for Pathfinder Swimsuit Calendar and Pathfinder Girls Gone Wild*
Don't listen to him. Let him have his version of holy. I subscribe to Calistria's holy scripture (glossy, full colour, arriving monthly in discrete packaging ;-)).
Now back to work, I believe you have some Sabina-on-Ileosa action to draw ;-P
What about the slogan "RPGs! We have girls now!"? :p
To build upon Kaeyoss's idea - I'm picturing a game of D&D being played by some little kids, and the DM is an Oriental Kid (before you go all 'stereotype alert!' on me, wait until I finish). The kids are 'enjoying' the game, and the DMs older sister (16?) is walking past (in the required scoolgirl uniform) and shaking her head at the 'nerds'. Make sure the kids are saying something stupid, like "My character, Cookie Cutter, is using his +2 Generic Sword on the Giant Killer Frog",
She leaves, saying she is going to a friends house, but when she gets outside she sees a 'dark angel' (Kaeyoss' version) who says "I am PATHFINDER... come with me if you want to be cool..."
He holds out his hand, and she is transformed into that crazy psycho-b__th scoolgirl from Kill Bill, with her spiked chain, and they joined by other 'archtypes' before flying off into the sky... or whatever.
Sex, Violence, a nod to anime, and best of all, a complete dis of the D&D system. :D
Maybe have it end with the Gigantic word PATHFINDER dropping out of the sky and crushing the house (and the D&D players), and have the words fade in... "Isn't it time you started playing with the Big Kids?"
Sorry... I'm a closet 'Ad-man' in my heart...
