Ok, this is going to be bit long. I’ve been trying to work on this a while (little more that a week) with some helpful comments from other people on the chatroom. All of the stat blocks do not use the rules that I consider current (which are near the bottom of this initial set of posts and above the comments about monstrous PCs). I present them because I wanted to show how I got to this point (also if I type this much I really don’t want to keep it to myself).
So hopefully enjoy!
Multi-classing:
Currently when you multi-class, you stop gaining power in your current class to train in another class. In this way you give up a higher-level ability for a weaker ability and the chance to be more versatile. This sounds fine, that is the point of multi-classing in my opinion. However I think there is a problem if, by multi-classing, instead of dropping slightly behind the power of a single classed character you are far behind what the single classed character can do. It isn’t even a problem of being a jack of all trades and a master of none; it seems at times that you have a few extra things you can do, you’re your abilities pale in comparison to those your ally’s cohort. The effects of this drop in power seem to be hardest felt by spellcasters who have significant increases in power when they get access to their more powerful spells.
It is not like this has been ignored, there have been a couple of solutions to this in d20 that I’ve seen. The first is the multi-classing prestige class like Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. They require you to take a few levels in a pair of base classes, then you can enter the prestige class and progress some of the abilities from each class more quickly than if you were to just take levels in the base classes. They tend to favor combining a spellcasting class with another class with a few exceptions. This works out reasonably well for me except that you have to wait a several levels to get into the prestige class and often, until you do, you are going to fall painfully behind more and more. Also each of these prestige classes takes a significant amount of space and most are not OGC. I would rather that space be put to better use than to make a single multi-classing option more viable.
Another thing that has popped up are multi-classing feats that allow you to use the combined level of two base classes to determine how powerful some of your class abilities were. Unlike the prestige classes these combine non-spellcasting classes much more often. These take much less space, but if used like this then there would be a feat for every combination of a class with another class. Several pages can be consumed easily if this route is taken, a better option might be to just have a single feat for each class that lets a select number of that classes abilities use your character level instead of your class level. That way they still would benefit multi-classed characters without having a feat for every class combination.
My idea:
Let me start this by saying that my goal is not to create a gestalt-type variant in which every character has abilities from multiple classes. I don’t want this rule to make multi-classed characters more powerful than single classed characters. My goal for this rule is to allow multi-class characters in general to work reasonably well without prestige classes, so that they can feel that they don’t have to take a prestige class just because they multi-classed. In effect I want to mimic what would be a weak generic prestige class that gives the abilities of both of the character’s base classes.
So if the character is a barbarian/druid as he progresses he continues to improve in his rage abilities and his druidic spellcasting and shapeshifting as if he were leveling in a generic barbarian/druid prestige class. I am not saying that I want to eliminate multi-classing prestige classes, I would like it to be more of an choice than it is currently. If you were to build a wizard/cleric then the character is almost certain to be a mystic theurge, otherwise the character falls farther and farther behind the power of other characters. I feel this is similar to what an archmage was like to a wizard in 3.5, it was just an advanced wizard with little reason to not enter it. It is my hope that with this new rule that you might see more multi-class characters not enter these prestige classes so that when you do see a character that is in one of these prestige classes, that they seem more special and unique.
When you multi-class you are treated as having a higher level in each of those classes for determining which class abilities and the power of those abilities. For determining your class abilities (not hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points) you use that class’s level plus half of the level of the highest-level class from among your other base classes, maximum is double the class’s level.
The basic example would be a fighter/wizard. If he had 4 levels of fighter and 5 levels of wizard then he would get the abilities of a 6th level fighter (4 + 5/2 = 6.5) and the abilities of a 7th level wizard (5 + 4/2 = 7). He would still have the base attack bonus, base saves, skill points, and hit dice of a Fighter 4/Wizard 5, but he would more feats and better spellcasting (more spells per day, more spells known) than that.
Here are some characters I stated up at multiple levels using 20 point buy and the PC wealth from the Pathfinder RPG rules. I believe I made a few mistakes in there (I don’t think I took into account armor check penalties in the skills for example), but I think they are reasonably close to correct. I also left off the racial features other than ability modifiers to save on some time.
Thunk half-orc barbarian/sorcerer
3rd level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 13
Base Attack Bonus: +2
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +2
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x2, sorcerer 2; total 10
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 1 rank, Climb 1 rank, Intimidate 3 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks, Survival 1 rank, Swim 1 rank
Base HP: 2d12 (barbarian) + 1d6 (sorcerer) + 3x3 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x2 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*1 + 3.5*1 + 9 + 2 = 33
Equipment: (3,000 gp)
masterwork greataxe 320 gp
ring of deflection +1 2,000 gp
680 gp
Levels: barbarian 2/sorcerer 1
Effective levels: barbarian 2/sorcerer 2
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 13 (+1)
hp: 33
AC: 12, flat-footed 11, touch 12
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1
Attacks: masterwork greataxe melee +7 (1d12 + 4; x3)
2 claws melee +5 (1d6 + 3)
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Climb +7, Intimidate +7, Spellcraft +6, Survival +3, Swim +7
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Sorcerer Feats: Eschew Materials
Barbarian Rage: (12 rage points)
Rage Types: rage
Rage Powers: moment of clarity
Sorcerer Spells: (2nd caster level)
1st – enlarge person, mage armor
0 – detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: claws (1d6)
4th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 14
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +3
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x2, sorcerer 2x2; total 12
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 1 rank, Climb 1 rank, Intimidate 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Survival 1 rank, Swim 1 rank
Base HP: 2d12 (barbarian) + 2d6 (sorcerer) + 3x4 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x2 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*1 + 3.5*2 + 12 + 2 = 39
Equipment: (6,000 gp)
+1 greataxe 2320 gp
ring of protection +1 2,000 gp
1680 gp
Levels: barbarian 2/sorcerer 2
Effective levels: barbarian 3/sorcerer 3
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 14 (+2)
hp: 39
AC: 12, flat-footed 11, touch 12
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +2
Attacks: +1 greataxe melee +8 (1d12 + 5; x3)
2 claws melee +6 (1d6 + 3)
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Climb +7, Intimidate +9, Spellcraft +7, Survival +3, Swim +7
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Sorcerer Feats: Eschew Materials
Barbarian Rage: (17 rage points)
Rage Types: rage
Rage Powers: moment of clarity
Sorcerer Spells: (3rd caster level)
1st – enlarge person, mage armor, shield, cause fear
0 – detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: claws (1d6), demon resistances (resist elec 5, +2 vs poison)
8th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 15
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Base Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +5
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x4, sorcerer 2x4; total 24
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 2 ranks, Climb 2 ranks, Fly 1 rank, Intimidate 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Survival 2 ranks, Swim 1 rank
Base HP: 4d12 (barbarian) + 4d6 (sorcerer) + 3x8 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x4 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*3 + 3.5*4 + 24 + 4 = 73
Equipment: (33,000 gp)
+2 greataxe 8320 gp
ring of protection +2 8,000 gp
belt of mighty constitution +2 4,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +1 6,000 gp
leather armor 10 gp
cloak of resistance +2 4,000 gp
2670 gp
Levels: barbarian 4/sorcerer 4
Effective levels: barbarian 6/sorcerer 6
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 18 (+4), Int 10 (+0), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 15 (+2)
hp: 81
AC: 15, flat-footed 14, touch 13
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +6
Attacks: +2 greataxe melee +12 (1d12 + 6; x3)
2 claws melee +10 (1d6 + 4)
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Climb +8, Fly +5, Intimidate +13, Spellcraft +11, Survival +4, Swim +7
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greataxe), Arcane Armor Training, Dazzling Display
Sorcerer Feats: Eschew Materials
Barbarian Rage: (38 rage points)
Rage Types: rage
Rage Powers: moment of clarity, intimidating glare, animal fury
Sorcerer Spells: (6th caster level)
3rd – vampiric touch
2nd – alter self, darkness, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, mage armor, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +2, improved uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: claws (1d6 magic), demon resistances (resist elec 5, +2 vs poison)
12th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 16
Base Attack Bonus: +9
Base Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +7
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x6, sorcerer 2x6; total 36
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Climb 2 ranks, Fly 2 ranks, Intimidate 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks, Survival 3 ranks, Swim 2 ranks
Base HP: 6d12 (barbarian) + 6d6 (sorcerer) + 3x12 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x6 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*5 + 3.5*6 + 36 + 6 = 107
Equipment: (108,000 gp)
+3 greataxe 18,320 gp
ring of protection +3 18,000 gp
belt of physical might (dexterity, constitution) +2 10,000 gp
headband of alluring charisma +2 4,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +2 24,000 gp
cloak of resistance +4 16,000 gp
+3 chain shirt 9,250 gp
8430 gp
Levels: barbarian 6/sorcerer 6
Effective levels: barbarian 9/sorcerer 9
Ability Scores: Str 19 (+4), Dex 14 (+2), Con 18 (+4), Int 10 (+0), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 18 (+4)
hp: 119
AC: 22, flat-footed 20, touch 15
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +10
Attacks: +3 greataxe melee +17 (1d12 + 9; x3)
2 claws melee +15 (1d6 + 6)
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Climb +9, Fly +7, Intimidate +19, Spellcraft +15, Survival +5, Swim +9
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greataxe), Arcane Armor Training, Dazzling Display, Overhand Chop, Arcane Armor Mastery
Sorcerer Feats: Eschew Materials, Improved Bull Rush
Barbarian Rage: (56 rage points)
Rage Types: rage
Rage Powers: moment of clarity, intimidating glare, animal fury, renewed vigor
Sorcerer Spells: (9th caster level)
4th – dimension door, elemental body I, stoneskin
3rd – haste, keen edge, vampiric touch, rage
2nd – alter self, darkness, false life, scorching ray, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, ray of frost, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, improved uncanny dodge, DR 1/-
Sorcerer: claws (1d8 magic), demon resistances (resist elec 10, +4 vs poison), strength of the abyss
16th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 17
Base Attack Bonus: +12
Base Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +8
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x8, sorcerer 2x8; total 48
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Climb 3 ranks, Fly 3 ranks, Intimidate 16 ranks, Spellcraft 16 ranks, Survival 4 ranks, Swim 3 ranks
Base HP: 8d12 (barbarian) + 8d6 (sorcerer) + 3x16 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x8 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*7 + 3.5*8 + 48 + 8 = 141
Equipment: (315,000 gp)
+5 ghost touch greataxe 72,320 gp
ring of protection +5 50,000 gp
belt of physical might (dexterity, constitution) +4 40,000 gp
headband of alluring charisma +4 16,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +3 54,000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25,000 gp
+5 chain shirt 25,250 gp
32,430 gp
Levels: barbarian 8/sorcerer 8
Effective levels: barbarian 12/sorcerer 12
Ability Scores: Str 19 (+4), Dex 16 (+3), Con 20 (+5), Int 10 (+0), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 21 (+5)
hp: 173
AC: 27, flat-footed 24, touch 18
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +12, Will +12
Attacks: +5 ghost touch greataxe melee +22 (1d12 + 8; x3)
2 claws melee +19 (1d6 + 7)
Skills: Acrobatics +9, Climb +10, Fly +9, Intimidate +24, Spellcraft +19, Survival +6, Swim +10
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greataxe), Arcane Armor Training, Dazzling Display, Overhand Chop, Arcane Armor Mastery, Backswing, Devastating Blow
Sorcerer Feats: Eschew Materials, Improved Bull Rush
Barbarian Rage: (86 rage points)
Rage Types: rage, greater rage
Rage Powers: moment of clarity, intimidating glare, animal fury, renewed vigor, strength surge, powerful blow
Sorcerer Spells: (12th caster level)
6th – beast shape IV
5th – prying eyes, wall of force, dismissal
4th – dimension door, elemental body I, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd – dispel magic, haste, keen edge, vampiric touch, rage
2nd – acid arrow, alter self, darkness, false life, scorching ray, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, prestidigitation, ray of frost, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +4, improved uncanny dodge, DR 2/-
Sorcerer: claws (1d8 magic + 1d6 fire), demon resistances (resist elec 10, +4 vs poison), strength of the abyss
20th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 17
Base Attack Bonus: +15
Base Saves: Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +10
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x10, sorcerer 2x10; total 60
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 4 ranks, Climb 4 ranks, Fly 4 ranks, Intimidate 20 ranks, Spellcraft 20 ranks, Survival 4 ranks, Swim 4 ranks
Base HP: 10d12 (barbarian) + 10d6 (sorcerer) + 3x20 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x10 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) + 23 (Toughness) = 12 + 6.5*9 + 3.5*10 + 60 + 10 = 198
Equipment: (880,000 gp)
+5 vicious spell storing ghost touch icy burst greataxe 200,320 gp
ring of protection +5 50,000 gp
ring of wizardry IV 100,000 gp
belt of physical might (dexterity, constitution) +6 90,000 gp
headband of alluring charisma +6 36,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 150,000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25,000 gp
+5 chain shirt of heavy fortification 100,250 gp
120,430 gp
Levels: barbarian 10/sorcerer 10
Effective levels: barbarian 15/sorcerer 15
Ability Scores: Str 22 (+6), Dex 18 (+4), Con 22 (+6), Int 10 (+0), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 23 (+6)
hp: 258
AC: 28, flat-footed 24, touch 19
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +15, Will +14
Attacks: +5 vicious spell storing ghost touch icy burst greataxe melee +27 (1d12 + 11; x3)
2 claws melee +26 (1d6 + 11)
Skills: Acrobatics +11, Climb +13, Fly +11, Intimidate +29, Spellcraft +23, Survival +6, Swim +13
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greataxe), Arcane Armor Training, Dazzling Display, Overhand Chop, Arcane Armor Mastery, Backswing, Devastating Blow, Stunned Defense, Toughness
Sorcerer Feats: Eschew Materials, Improved Bull Rush, Empower Spell
Barbarian Rage: (122 rage points)
Rage Types: rage, greater rage
Rage Bonus Abilities: indomitable will
Rage Powers: moment of clarity, intimidating glare, animal fury, renewed vigor, strength surge, powerful blow, elemental rage
Sorcerer Spells: (15th caster level)
7th – ethereal jaunt, giant form I, greater teleport
6th – beast shape IV, greater dispel magic, summon monster VI, transformation
5th – interposing hand, prying eyes, telekinesis, wall of force, dismissal
4th – dimension door, elemental body I, greater invisibility, wall of fire, stoneskin
3rd – haste, keen edge, protection from energy, vampiric touch, rage
2nd – acid arrow, alter self, darkness, false life, scorching ray, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, prestidigitation, ray of frost, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +5, improved uncanny dodge, DR 3/-
Sorcerer: claws (1d8 magic + 1d6 fire), demon resistances (resist elec 10, +4 vs poison), strength of the abyss, added summonings
If I were going to attempt to build this character with 3.5 rules I would probably go with a single level of barbarian, six levels of sorcerer, and become an eldritch knight. At sixteenth level the base attack bonus would be +13 and the caster level would be 14. This is slightly higher than my barbarians +12 base attack bonus and caster level of 13. That would mean that the eldritch knight version would be slightly more powerful, except for the truckload of class abilities from barbarian and sorcerer that my version carries around.
At the moment I’m typing this that looks like a little too much. I’m not trying to create a variant more powerful than the existing prestige classes. It probably would be better if the effective level for getting class abilities were reduced by one with a minimum of the class level. I haven’t done this with any of the examples so that I could get this post finished. Either way I think this method produces something close to what you got using prestige classes. I think that it hopefully won’t need major adjustments to work in all cases and it should be pretty obvious if a dropping the power down a level wouldn’t help it this rule is really not a good idea.
Next is a non-spellcaster example. I’m not completely sure of how much is needed to fix this class combination or even if it needs to be fixed. There are very, very few prestige classes that combine non-spellcasting base classes for me to compare this to. I will probably do that next though and build a monk/rogue and compare that to a prestige class and see what comes out of that. Either way, here is the barbarian/rogue with me just going a little insane near the end of character creation.
Raneon human barbarian/rogue
3rd level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Attack Bonus: +2
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 3x2, rogue 7x1; total 13
Skill Ranks: Climb 2, Perception 3, Stealth 3, Survival 3, Swim 2
Base HP: 2d12 + 2 (barbarian) + 1d8 (rogue) + 3x3 (Con) + 6 (Toughness) = 40
Equipment: (3000 gp)
masterwork greatclub 305 gp
masterwork javelin 301 gp
+1 chain shirt 1250 gp
cloak of resistance +1 1000 gp
144 gp (potions, oils, and other mundane equipment)
barbarian 2/rogue 1
barbarian 2/rogue 2
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 13 (+1), Con 17 (+3), Int 7 (-2), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
hp 40
AC 16, flat-footed 15, touch 11
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
Attacks:
Skills: Climb +8, Perception +6, Stealth +7, Survival +6, Swim +8
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness
Barbarian Abilities:
fast movement, rage (12 rage points), rage power (swift foot), uncanny dodge
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talents (bleeding attack)
4th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 3x2, rogue 7x2; total 20
Skill Ranks: Climb 4, Perception 4, Stealth 4, Survival 4, Swim 4
Base HP: 2d12 + 2 (barbarian) + 2d8 (rogue) + 4x4 (Con) + 7 (Toughness) = 52
Equipment: (6000 gp)
masterwork greatclub 305 gp
masterwork javelin 301 gp
+1 chain shirt 1250 gp
amulet of natural armor +1 2000 gp
cloak of resistance +1 1000 gp
1144 gp (potions, oils, and other mundane equipment)
barbarian 2/rogue 2
barbarian 3/rogue 3
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 13 (+1), Con 18 (+4), Int 7 (-2), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
hp 52
AC 17, flat-footed 16, touch 11
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +1
Attacks:
Skills: Climb +10, Perception +7, Stealth +8, Survival +7, Swim +10
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness
Barbarian Abilities:
fast movement, rage (20 rage points), rage power (swift foot), uncanny dodge, trap sense +1
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talents (bleeding attack), trap sense +1
20th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Attack Bonus: +17
Base Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +6
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 3x10, rogue 7x10; total 100
Skill Ranks: Climb 20, Perception 20, Stealth 20, Survival 20, Swim 20
Base HP: 10d12 + 10 (barbarian) + 10d8 (rogue) + 20x4 (Con) + 23 (Toughness) = 228
Equipment: (880000 gp)
+5 intelligent adamantine thundering shocking burst wounding heavy flail 239915 gp
+5 returning distance javelin 98301 gp
+5 heavy fortification mithral breastplate of greater slick and shadow 171700 gp
belt of physical perfection +6 144000 gp
amulet of natural armor +5 50000 gp
ring of protection +5 50000
cloak of resistance +5 25000 gp
manual of gainful exercise +2 55000 gp
headband of vast intelligence +2 (decipher script) 4,000 gp
42084 gp (potions, oils, and other mundane equipment)
Special abilities of the adamantine heavy flail (Ego 22)
Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 10
Speech (common, elven, dwarven, orcish), telepathy
120 ft. darkvision and hearing
7 ranks in lingustics (+13 lingustics, knows seven additional languages not known on the world)
major image 1/day
locate object 3/day
status effect, usable at will
barbarian 10/rogue 10
barbarian 15/rogue 15
Ability Scores: Str 26 (+8), Dex 19 (+4), Con 27 (+8), Int 9 (-1), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
hp 308
AC 34, flat-footed 30, touch 19
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +19, Will +13
Attacks: +5 intelligent adamantine thundering shocking burst wounding heavy flail melee +31 (1d10 + 17 + shocking + wounding, 17-20/x2 + shocking burst + thundering)
+5 returning distance javelin ranged +27 (1d6 + 13)
Skills: Climb +30, Lingustics +22, Perception +23, Stealth +44, Survival +23, Swim +30
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness, Skill Focus (stealth), Iron Will, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (heavy flail), Vital Strike, Improved Critical (heavy flail), Weapon Focus (javelin), Improved Vital Strike
Barbarian Abilities:
fast movement, rage (152 rage points), rage power (swift foot, rolling dodge, moment of clarity, swift foot, renewed vigor, terrifying howl, unexpected strike, surprise accuracy), uncanny dodge, trap sense +5, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction 3/-, greater rage, indomitable will
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +8d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talents (bleeding attack, rogue crawl, fast stealth, resiliency, defensive roll, opportunist, crippling strike), trap sense +5, uncanny dodge [repeated], improved uncanny dodge [repeated]
Gets a few more rage points, rage powers, and rogue powers, fewer of any specific one if I had made this into a single classed character, but more overall. Gets greater rage and a few bonus sneak attack dice, but still doesn’t get the most powerful abilites of each class and misses out on mighty rage and the rogue 20th level ability along with another few sneak attack dice.
I think that I said most of what I wanted to say above, I have no idea how balanced this is, I have no idea how balance it was, so I’ll just move along for now and come back to this later.
So far I’ve only showed stats for characters with two classes, but this rule possibly should include characters with multiple base classes. This next character was the first character I built using my multi-class rule and it resulted in me immediately modifying the rule. This character used the combined level of all the other base classes divided by two to get the bonus for determining what class abilities he got. What came out seemed excessive in some of the cases (granting impressive powers from all the classes). To repeat, this next character was built using an older version of the rule, not the one I currently have listed. It is only shown for comparison and also to show how I got to this point. Also it is here for people to tell me if I was wrong if my judgement that the rule should be changed was wrong.
Also bard spells in the next set of stack blocks will have a “[]” following the name of the spell if that spell has no somatic components (so that it can be cast in full plate with no arcane failure chance).
Gileben gnome bard/cleric/fighter/rogue/paladin
Favored class (bard)
Cleric of Sarenrae (Domains: Glory and Good)
5th level character
765 gp (potions, ammunition, holy symbols, coin, healer’s kit, and other mundane equipment)
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 17
BASE SAVES Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +4
BASE ATTACK BONUS +2
Skill ranks bard 4, cleric 1, fighter 1, rogue 6, paladin 1, bardic knowledge 2
Total ranks 15
Perform (oratory) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 2 ranks, Heal 5 ranks
bard 1/cleric 1/fighter 1/rogue 1/paladin 1
Effective levels: bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 2
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 15 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 17 (+3)
Init +5
hp 48 (3d8 + 2d10 + 10 + 1 + 8)
AC 23, flat-footed 22, touch 12
Attacks: +1 scimitar melee +8 (1d4+4; 18-20/x2)
Masterwork composite (+2 Str) longbow ranged +5 (1d6+2; x3)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +9
Feats: Toughness, Turn Outsider (evil), Turning Smite
Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved Initiative
Skills: heal +10, knowledge (religion) +7, knowledge (planes) +4, knowledge (all other) –1, perform (oratory) +9
Abilities: Well-Versed, channel energy (1d6) 6/day, domain powers (glory: touch of glory, shield of faith; good: touch of good, protection from evil), bravery +1, detect evil, smite evil (2 damage) 1/day, divine grace, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, evasion [not working], rogue talents (slow reactions)
Bard Spells (2nd caster level)
1st level (3/day) – feather fall[], ventriloquism[], identify
0 (At will) – flare[], light[], detect magic, prestidigitation, read magic
Cleric Spells (2nd caster level)
1st – divine favor [2], entopic shield
Orisons – create water, guidance, resistance, detect poison
Bardic Performance: 2/day
Distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1
Lay On Hands: 4/day
Heal 2 hp
Alternate 8th level character
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +5
BASE ATTACK BONUS +5
Skills bard 4, cleric 1, fighter 1, rogue 6, paladin 1x4, bardic knowledge 2, open minded 5
Total ranks 23
Perform (oratory) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 2 ranks, Heal 8 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 1/cleric 1/fighter 1/rogue 1/paladin 4
Effective levels: bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 6
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 15 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 20 (+5)
Init +5
hp 73 (3d8 + 5d10 + 16 + 1 + 11)
AC 27, flat-footed 26, touch 13
Attacks: +2 scimitar melee +12 (1d4+5; 18-20/x2)
+1 composite (+2 Str) longbow ranged +8 (1d6+3; x3)
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +12
Feats: Toughness, Turn Outsider (evil), Turning Smite, Open Minded
Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved Initiative
Skills: heal +13, knowledge (religion) +7, knowledge (planes) +4, knowledge (all other) –1, perform (oratory) +11, ride +4
Abilities: Well-Versed, channel energy (3d6) 8/day, domain powers (glory: touch of glory, shield of faith; good: touch of good, protection from evil), bravery +1, detect evil, smite evil (6 damage) 2/day, divine grace, aura of courage, divine health, divine bond (weapon +1) 1/day, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, evasion [not working], rogue talents (slow reactions)
Bard Spells (2nd caster level)
1st level (3/day) – feather fall[], ventriloquism[], identify
0 (At will) – flare[], light[], detect magic, prestidigitation, read magic
Cleric Spells (2nd caster level)
1st – divine favor [2], entopic shield
Orisons – create water, guidance, resistance, detect poison
Paladin Spells (3rd caster level)
1st – bless weapon [2]
Bardic Performance: 2/day
Distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1
Lay On Hands: 8/day
Heal 6 hp, remove disease
10th level character
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +6
BASE ATTACK BONUS +7
Skills bard 4x2, cleric 1x2, fighter 1x2, rogue 6x2, paladin 1x2, bardic knowledge 4, open minded 5
Total ranks 35
Perform (oratory) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 4 ranks, Heal 10 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 2
Effective level: bard 4/cleric 4/fighter 4/rogue 4/paladin 4
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 15 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 20 (+5)
Init +5
hp 88 (6d8 + 4d10 + 20 + 2 + 13)
AC 32, flat-footed 31, touch 14
Attacks: +3 scimitar melee +15 (1d4+8; 18-20/x2) (+15/+10 with full attack)
+1 composite (+2 Str) longbow ranged +10 (1d6+3; x3)
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +13
Feats: Toughness, Turn Outsider (evil), Turning Smite, Open Minded, Extra Turning
Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization (scimitar)
Skills: heal +15, knowledge (religion) +13, knowledge (planes) +7, knowledge (all other) +0, perform (oratory) +14, ride +5
Abilities: Well-Versed, channel energy (2d6) 10/day, domain powers (glory: touch of glory, shield of faith, bless weapon; good: touch of good, protection from evil, align weapon), bravery +1, armor training +1, detect evil, smite evil (4 damage) 2/day, divine grace, sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, evasion [not working], rogue talents (slow reactions, resiliency), trap sense +1, uncanny dodge
Bard Spells (4th caster level)
2nd level (2/day) – blur[], tongues[]
1st level (4/day) – feather fall[], ventriloquism[], identify, alarm
0 (At will) – flare[], light[], detect magic, prestidigitation, read magic, mending
Cleric Spells (4th caster level)
2nd – align weapon. remove paralysis, status
1st – divine favor [2], entopic shield, remove fear
Orisons – create water, guidance, resistance, detect poison
Paladin Spells (2nd caster level)
1st – bless weapon
Bardic Performance: 4/day
Distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1, inspire competence
Lay On Hands: 7/day
Heal 4 hp
Alternate 16th level character
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
BASE ATTACK BONUS +13
Skills bard 4x2, cleric 1x2, fighter 1x2, rogue 6x2, paladin 1x8, bardic knowledge 4, open minded 5
Total ranks 41
Perform (oratory) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 4 ranks, Heal 16 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 8
Effective level: bard 4/cleric 4/fighter 4/rogue 4/paladin 12
Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 20 (+5), Int 7 (-2), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 24 (+7)
Init +5
hp 181 (6d8 + 10d10 + 80 + 2 + 19)
AC 41, flat-footed 40, touch 16
Attacks: +5 ghost touch scimitar melee +24 (1d4+11; 18-20/x2) (+24/+19/+14 with full attack)
+3 composite (+2 Str) longbow ranged +18 (1d6+5; x3)
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +16, Will +17
Feats: Toughness, Turn Outsider (evil), Turning Smite, Open Minded, Extra Turning, Skill Focus (Heal), Cleave, Great Cleave
Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization (scimitar)
Skills: heal +24, knowledge (religion) +13, knowledge (planes) +7, knowledge (all other) +0, perform (oratory) +16, ride +5
Abilities: Well-Versed, channel energy (6d6) 12/day, domain powers (glory: touch of glory, shield of faith, bless weapon; good: touch of good, protection from evil, align weapon), bravery +1, armor training +1, detect evil, smite evil (12 damage) 4/day, divine grace, aura of courage, divine health, divine bond (weapon +3 bonus) 2/day, aura of resolve, aura of justice, sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, evasion [not working], rogue talents (slow reactions, resiliency), trap sense +1, uncanny dodge
Bard Spells (4th caster level)
2nd level (3/day) – blur[], tongues[]
1st level (5/day) – feather fall[], ventriloquism[], identify, alarm
0 (At will) – flare[], light[], detect magic, prestidigitation, read magic, mending
Cleric Spells (4th caster level)
2nd – align weapon. remove paralysis, status
1st – divine favor [2], entopic shield, remove fear
Orisons – create water, guidance, resistance, detect poison
Paladin Spells (6th caster level)
3rd – daylight, magic circle against evil, prayer
2nd – shield other [3]
1st – bless weapon [3]
Bardic Performance: 4/day
Distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1, inspire competence
Lay On Hands: 13/day
Heal 12 hp, remove disease, remove curse, neutralize poison
20th level character
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +11
BASE ATTACK BONUS +17
Skills bard 4x4, cleric 1x4, fighter 1x4, rogue 6x4, paladin 1x4, bardic knowledge 8, open minded 5
Total ranks 65
Perform (oratory) 12 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 20 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 8 ranks, Heal 20 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 4/cleric 4/fighter 4/rogue 4/paladin 4
Effective levels: bard 8/cleric 8/fighter 8/rogue 8/paladin 8
Str 21 (+5), Dex 12 (+1), Con 22 (+6), Int 7 (-2), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 24 (+7)
Init +5
hp 249 (12d8 + 8d10 + 120 + 4 + 23)
AC 44, flat-footed 43, touch 17
Attacks: +5 ghost touch flaming burst holy scimitar melee +32 (1d4+13 + 1d6 fire; 18-20/x2 + 1d10 fire on critical hit) (+32/+27/+22/+17)
+3 composite (+2 Str) longbow ranged +23 (1d6+5; x3)
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +20, Will +21
Feats: Toughness, Turn Outsider (evil), Turning Smite, Open Minded, Extra Turning, Skill Focus (Heal), Cleave, Great Cleave, Still Spell, Mounted Combat
Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Skills: heal +28, knowledge (religion) +25, knowledge (planes) +13, knowledge (all other) +2, perform (oratory) +22, ride +6
Abilities: Well-Versed, Lore Master 1/day, channel energy (4d6) 12/day, domain powers (glory: touch of glory, shield of faith, bless weapon, divine presence; good: touch of good, protection from evil, align weapon, holy lance), bravery +2, armor training +2, weapon training +1 (blades), detect evil, smite evil (8 damage) 3/day, divine grace, aura of courage, divine health, divine bond (weapon +2) 1/day, aura of resolve, sneak attack +4d6, trapfinding, evasion [not working], rogue talents (slow reactions, resiliency, surprise attacks, stand up), trap sense +2, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge
Bard Spells (9th caster level)
3rd level (4/day) – displacement[], phantom steed, scrying
2nd level (6/day) – suggestion[], tongues[], invisibility, cat’s grace
1st level (6/day) – feather fall[], ventriloquism[], identify, alarm, expeditious retreat
0 – flare[], light[], detect magic, prestidigitation, read magic, mending
Cleric Spells (9th caster level)
4th –divine power, freedom of movement
3rd – invisibility purge, protection from energy, water breathing
2nd – align weapon. lesser restoration, remove paralysis, status
1st – divine favor [2], entopic shield, remove fear, endure elements
Orisons – create water, guidance, resistance, detect poison
Paladin Spells (5th caster level)
2nd – shield other [2]
1st – bless weapon [3]
Bardic Performance: 8/day
Distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +2, inspire competence, suggestion, discordant performance
Lay On Hands: 11/day
Heal 8 hp, remove disease
This character was a pain to build because of the need to reference five different classes and it had three spell lists. I think that I would still have had this problem without my rule, all it would have meant is that I would have had to pick a few less spells overall. At this point I also compared it to a base class combined with a single prestige class that produced similar abilities to the five-class combination. That is bard spells, bard song, sneak attack, divine spells, good base attack bonus, and various paladin abilities from a single base class with a single prestige class. So I compared this five classed character to a bard/blackguard (who gets all of these abilities) to help determine if it were too much. This version of the five-classed character had better abilities than the bard/blackguard in almost every way (and it was only slightly worse in the ways it was worse). That is how I determined that the multi-classing rule for multiple rules should be scaled back.
Another thing I thought about when making this character was what about class abilities that were shared by multiple classes and stacked. For example the channel energy, if there was a cleric/paladin using my rule, then at 20th level (cleric 10/paladin 10) that character would be able to channel positive energy as a 27th level cleric (15 from effective cleric level, and 12 from effective paladin level minus three). Thinking about this, it probably would be appropriate to cap abilities to your character level just so they don’t beyond what a single-classed character can do.
The next character did use the more current rule. It only has three classes, and it uses only the level of the highest class from among his two other base classes to determine to bonus to the effective class level instead of using them combined. As this is a combination of non-spellcasting classes I’m finding it hard to determine if this is more powerful than a single classed character (again, this is something I want to avoid).
Droken Blackhammer dwarf fighter/monk/rogue
6th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Base Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +3
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x2, monk 5x2, rogue 9x2; total 34
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 4, Climb 4, Knowledge (engineering) 6, Knowledge (history) 6, Intimidate 1, Perception 4, Sense Motive 5, Swim 4
Base HP: 2d10+2 (fighter) + 4d8 (monk and rogue) + 6*4 (Con) + 9 (Toughness) = 68
Equipment: (16000 gp)
bracers of armor +2 4000 gp
ring of protection +1 2000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +2 4000 gp
+1 throwing axe 2308 gp
+1 cloak of resistance 1000 gp
2692 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
fighter 2/monk 2/rogue 2
Effective levels: fighter 3/monk 3/rogue 3
Ability Scores: Str 14 (+2), Dex 13 (+1), Con 18 (+4), Int 12 (+1), Wis 19 (+4), Cha 7 (-2)
hp 68
AC 18, flat-footed 17, touch 16
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
Attacks: unarmed strike +6 (1d6+2),
+1 throwing axe melee +7, ranged +6 (1d6+3)
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Climb +9, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Intimidate +2, Perception +11, Sense Motive +12, Swim +9
Feats: Defensive Combat Training, Combat Reflexes, Scorpion Style
Fighter Abilities:
Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Toughness; Bravery +1, armor training +1 [no armor worn]
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +0, flurry of blows -2, unarmed strikes 1d6, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist; evasion, fast movement +10, maneuver training, still mind
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, evasion [repeated ability], rogue talents (resiliency), trap sense +1
12th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +10
Base Saves: Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +6
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x4, monk 5x4, rogue 9x4; total 68
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 7, Climb 8, Knowledge (engineering) 12, Knowledge (history) 12, Intimidate 1, Perception 12, Sense Motive 8, Swim 8
Base HP: 4d10+4 (fighter) + 8d8 (monk and rogue) + 12*4 (Con) + 15 (Toughness) = 129
Equipment: (108000 gp)
bracers of armor +4 16000 gp
ring of protection +3 18000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +4 16000 gp
belt of physical perfection +2 16000 gp
+1 returning throwing axe 8308 gp
amulet of mighty fists +2 24000 gp
cloak of resistance +2 4000 gp
5692 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
fighter 4/monk 4/rogue 4
Effective levels: fighter 6/monk 6/rogue 6
Ability Scores: Str 16 (+3), Dex 15 (+2), Con 20 (+5), Int 12 (+1), Wis 23 (+6), Cha 7 (-2)
hp 141
AC 26, flat-footed 24, touch 22
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +13, Will +14
Attacks: +2 unarmed strike +17 (1d8+8),
+1 returning throwing axe melee +14, ranged +13 (1d6+4)
Skills: Acrobatics +12, Climb +14, Knowledge (engineering) +16, Knowledge (history) +16, Intimidate +2, Perception +21, Sense Motive +17, Swim +14
Feats: Defensive Combat Training, Combat Reflexes, Scorpion Style, Improved Sunder, Gorgon’s Fist, Improved Bull Rush
Fighter Abilities:
Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike); Bravery +2, armor training +1 [no armor worn], weapon training +1 (monk weapons)
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +1, flurry of blows -1, unarmed strikes 1d8, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Disarm; evasion, fast movement +20, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (magic, 9 points), slow fall 30 ft., high jump, purity of body
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +3d6, trapfinding, evasion [repeated ability], rogue talents (resiliency, surprise attacks, bleeding attack), trap sense +2, uncanny dodge
18th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +14
Base Saves: Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +9
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x6, monk 5x6, rogue 9x6; total 102
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 11, Climb 12, Knowledge (engineering) 18, Knowledge (history) 18, Intimidate 1, Perception 18, Sense Motive 12, Swim 12
Base HP: 6d10+6 (fighter) + 12d8 (monk and rogue) + 18*4 (Con) + 21 (Toughness) = 190
Equipment: (530000 gp)
bracers of armor +8 64000 gp
ring of protection +5 50000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +6 36000 gp
belt of physical perfection +4 64000 gp
+4 seeking returning throwing axe of distance 98308 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 150000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25000 gp
monk’s robe 13000 gp
29692 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
fighter 6/monk 6/rogue 6
Effective levels: fighter 9/monk 9/rogue 9
Ability Scores: Str 18 (+4), Dex 17 (+3), Con 22 (+6), Int 12 (+1), Wis 26 (+8), Cha 7 (-2)
hp 226
AC 37, flat-footed 34, touch 29
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +20, Will +22
Attacks: +5 unarmed strike +28 (2d6+13),
+4 seeking returning throwing axe of distance melee +23, ranged +22 (1d6+9)
Skills: Acrobatics +17, Climb +19, Knowledge (engineering) +22, Knowledge (history) +22, Intimidate +2, Perception +29, Sense Motive +23, Swim +19
Feats: Defensive Combat Training, Combat Reflexes, Scorpion Style, Improved Sunder, Gorgon’s Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Stunning Fist, Vital Strike, Endurance
Fighter Abilities:
Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike); Bravery +2, armor training +2 [no armor worn], weapon training (monk weapons +2, axes +1)
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +2, flurry of blows +0, unarmed strikes 1d10, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Disarm; evasion, fast movement +30, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (magic, 12 points), slow fall 40 ft., high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +5d6, trapfinding, evasion [repeated ability], rogue talents (resiliency, surprise attacks, bleeding attack, ledge walker), trap sense +3, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge
20th level character
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +16
Base Saves: Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +10
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x6, monk 5x8, rogue 9x6; total 112
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 12, Climb 13, Knowledge (engineering) 20, Knowledge (history) 20, Intimidate 1, Perception 20, Sense Motive 13, Swim 13
Base HP: 6d10+6 (fighter) + 14d8 (monk and rogue) + 20*4 (Con) + 23 (Toughness) = 209
Equipment: (880000 gp)
bracers of armor +8 64000 gp
ring of protection +5 50000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +6 36000 gp
belt of physical perfection +6 144000 gp
+5 seeking returning axiomatic throwing axe of distance 200308 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 150000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25000 gp
monk’s robe 13000 gp
tome of understanding +5 137500 gp
60192 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
fighter 6/monk 8/rogue 6
Effective levels: fighter 10/monk 11/rogue 10
Ability Scores: Str 20 (+5), Dex 19 (+4), Con 25 (+7), Int 12 (+1), Wis 31 (+10), Cha 7 (-2)
hp 269
AC 41, flat-footed 37, touch 33
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +22, Will +25
Attacks: +5 unarmed strike +30 (2d8+14, 19-20/x2),
+5 seeking returning axiomatic throwing axe of distance melee +27, ranged +26 (1d6+11)
Skills: Acrobatics +19, Climb +21, Knowledge (engineering) +24, Knowledge (history) +24, Intimidate +2, Perception +33, Sense Motive +23, Swim +19
Feats: Defensive Combat Training, Combat Reflexes, Scorpion Style, Improved Sunder, Gorgon’s Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Stunning Fist, Vital Strike, Endurance, Diehard
Fighter Abilities:
Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Improved Vital Strike; bravery +3, armor training +2 [no armor worn], weapon training (monk weapons +2, axes +1)
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +2, flurry of blows +0 (second extra attack), unarmed strikes 1d10, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Disarm, Improved Critical (unarmed strike); evasion, fast movement +30, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (magic, lawful, 15 points), slow fall 50 ft., high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body
Rogue Abilities:
Sneak attack +5d6, trapfinding, evasion [repeated ability], rogue talents (resiliency, surprise attacks, bleeding attack, ledge walker, opportunist), trap sense +3, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge
Now that is all up there I’ll take what I’ve learned from this and try to produce a better rule from it. For determining your class abilities (not hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points) you use that class’s level plus half of the level of the highest-level class from among your other base classes minus one, maximum is double the class’s level and minimum is the class’s level. If a ability ends up using a higher level (through it stacking with two classes) than your character level then cap it at character level.
I think my rule works reasonable well in a game that uses the multi-class prestige classes because the prestige class levels do not advance your base class abilites. With the –1 change it doesn’t effect most prestige classed characters much. The fighter 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 10 would have one more fighter feat than the character not using my rule. The wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10 is the same as with the rule, but it gets a slight boost when taking that next wizard or cleric level. For the arcane trickster it is a little weirder, a wizard 5/rogue 2 under my rule can now qualify for the arcane trickster prestige class one level earlier (without doing something like wizard 5/rogue 1/assassin 1). The wizard 5/rogue 3/arcane trickster 10 on the other hand would now get uncanny dodge and a extra rogue talent as well as a bonus in both classes when he gains his next level (in either wizard or rogue).
Monstrous Races:
While pondering this idea I wondered if using this system with monstrous races. Monstrous races seem to have similar issues as standard multi-classing. Instead of getting a high level ability you end up getting lower level, and in most cases that lower level ability is going to be a lot weaker than the higher level one.
This operates on the same basic idea as the multi-classing system mentioned above. The only difference is that you don’t get any bonus levels for your monstrous class, only your base class’s abilities improve.
You create your monstrous PC as you normally would, taking their HD and LA into account. If the PC has no levels in a base class then there are no changes. However if they do have levels in a base class, then you use the multi-classing rules above and treat the number of monstrous Hit Dice as the level of one of the other base classes.
Another idea is to use the number of monstrous Hit Dice plus their Level Adjustment as the other base class level instead. This would allow most PC’s with templates to gain these benefits as well. Whether or not this is more balanced I’m not quite sure either way.
I am a bit tempted to stat these PCs in the depth like I did the other characters, but I wanted to get this idea onto the boards in some timely manner. So instead I just gave a simple breakdown for these PCs to get the most basic information for the effective class levels for just using HD and both HD and LA. I don’t think this will show much, but it should give some idea if this is radically off target.
The first is just a simple example using a wyrmling (chosen because the low ECL version is more likely to break the system) silver dragon with fighter levels.
wyrmling silver dragon fighter
12th: fighter 1 (2, 2)
13th: fighter 2 (4, 4)
14th: fighter 3 (6, 6)
15th: fighter 4 (7, 8)
16th: fighter 5 (8, 10)
17th: fighter 6 (9, 11)
18th: fighter 7 (10, 12)
19th: fighter 8 (11, 13)
20th: fighter 9 (12, 14)
Both systems add very little power to this PC. Early on it quickly advances through the lower fighter levels and it ends up granting a couple more bonus feats (and now a little more armor and weapon training).
Ok, first post cut off... continuing on.
Now for something a little different, this next PC is supposed to try to break the system by using it’s high sorcerer abilities and augmenting them with sorcerer levels.
rakshasa sorcerer
15th: sorcerer 1 (2) [9]
16th: sorcerer 2 (4) [11]
17th: sorcerer 3 (6) [13]
18th: sorcerer 4 (7, 8) [14, 15]
19th: sorcerer 5 (8, 10) [15, 17]
20th: sorcerer 6 (9, 12) [16, 19]
21st: sorcerer 7 (10, 14) [17, 21]
22nd: sorcerer 8 (11, 15) [18, 22]
23rd: sorcerer 9 (12, 16) [19, 23]
24th: sorcerer 10 (13, 17) [20, 24]
One of the first things I noticed is while he has high level spells, that he only gets some of the mid-level sorcerer class abilities. The loss of the higher-level sorcerer abilities might be considered a trade for a couple of the rakshasa abilities. When using the HD with LA system his caster level (along with the highest level spells he can cast) gets incredibly close to the caster level of a straight sorcerer (and manages to match it in epic levels). This example does not leave me confidant of the balance of using HD + LA for the multi-classing bonus.
As mentioned in a earlier section, when two classes grant an ability that stacks with the other it can it weird when the multi-classing system leaves your effective level for that ability higher than your character level. So one might consider that if abilities were capped at character level (or hit dice total) then this would leave most of this character’s information inaccurate. I see no real point in reprinting this character’s abilities since if his sorcerer level were capped at hit dice then the only thing he would gain over the standard system would be some extra sorcerer class abilities. However if the rakshasa multi-classed between sorcerer and fighter then there would be significant gains over the standard system, but that would take a bit more time so I’ll finish this post and create PCs with that information later.
Other things:
I like to think I covered a lot of things with this so far, but there are some things that I haven’t really looked into in depth and am somewhat concerned about. The first I would note is epic rules and how well this rule works when carried beyond 20th level. My system might work well at non-epic and break when the epic feats start coming down.
Another would be multi-classed monstrous PCs. The monstrous PCs I listed so far only have one class so I’m not quite sure how it works out when they take multiple classes using this rule.
So … what do you think? I think I’m just going to lie down for a bit now.
Yeah, I haven't noticed serious problems with multiclassing non-spellcasting classes either, but I wasn't sure if that was because there was no real difference in power or that I hadn't seen enough of it to be able to notice it. I was mainly going off of the random class/class feats that improve the abilities of two non-spellcasting classes rather than the personal experience I have.
Another thing I should note about the monstrous PCs rule should probably not be used for NPCs or villians. Mostly because for some monsters that get a two class levels for one CR for quite a while.
I guess I should have looked in more than the new rules suggestions forums before posting this thread. I guess I took too long between having the idea appear in my mind to when I finally got the post up. Unless there are any objections I will just throw stat blocks into here so that I don’t clutter up the other threads.
I simplified what I was doing to save on some time as well as avoid equipment abilities overshadowing the character abilities. I also say the number of spells per day, but these do not include bonus spells for high ability scores.
The multiclassing rule for these stats is: for determining your class abilities (not hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points) you use that class’s level plus half of the level of the highest-level class from among your other base classes minus one, maximum is double the class’s level and minimum is the class’s level. If an ability ends up using a higher level (through it stacking with two or more classes) than your character level then cap it at character level.
This set is comparing the mystic theurge (with and without the multiclassing rule) to two different forms of a wizard/cleric. One that divides the levels evenly between classes and another that pushes the “maximum is double the class’s level” limit by taking only as much as it needs of the second class to be able to get the increase in effective level.
Wizard (divination specialist, prohibited illusion and enchantment)
Cleric (protection and rune domains)
Basic Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge without Multiclassing rule
8th level
wizard abilities: (3rd level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells)
Scribe Scroll
spells (5th level) (1 3rd, 2 2nd, 3 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (3rd level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 1/day)
channel energy (2d6, DC 11+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (5th level) (1 3rd, 2 2nd, 3 1st, 4 0 level)
16th level
wizard abilities: (3rd level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells)
Scribe Scroll
spells (13th level) (1 7th, 2 6th, 3 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (3rd level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 1/day)
channel energy (2d6, DC 11+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (13th level) (1 7th, 2 6th, 3 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
20th level
wizard abilities: (7th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 3/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (17th level) (1 9th, 2 8th, 3 7th, 4 6th, 4 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (3rd level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 1/day)
channel energy (2d6, DC 11+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (13th level) (1 7th, 2 6th, 3 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
20th level (With the rule)
wizard abilities: (7th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 3/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (17th level) (1 9th, 2 8th, 3 7th, 4 6th, 4 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (6th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 3/day, shield other 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 3/day, secret page 1/day)
channel energy (3d6, DC 13+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (16th level) (2 8th, 3 7th, 3 6th, 4 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
I am a little concerned that adding the rule to mystic theurge might overpower it, but from this I’m not that worried. The most powerful spells it can cast are not more powerful, instead it is just more powerful with it’s weaker spells. It is quite a jump though, and it is too much for me to just be able to say that I’m not concerned about it. However it is not out of the expected range of power if mystic theurge went on for another three levels so I’m not incredibly concerned.
Next are two different character progressions using the multiclassing rule and not taking levels in mystic theurge.
Even levels
8th level
wizard abilities: (5th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 2/day, see invisibility 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (1 3rd, 2 2nd, 3 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (5th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 2/day, shield other 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 2/day, secret page 1/day)
channel energy (3d6, DC 12+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (1 3rd, 2 2nd, 3 1st, 4 0 level)
16th level
wizard abilities: (11th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 5/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day, scrying adept, contact other plane 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, spell resistance)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (1 6th, 2 5th, 3 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (11th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 5/day, shield other 1/day, aura of protection)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 5/day, secret page 1/day, major rune)
channel energy (6d6, DC 15+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells 1 6th, 2 5th, 3 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
20th level
wizard abilities: (14th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 7/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day, scrying adept, contact other plane 1/day, true seeing 1/day, greater scrying 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, spell resistance, scry on familiar)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (2 7th, 3 6th, 3 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (14th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 7/day, shield other 1/day, aura of protection, spell resistance 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 7/day, secret page 1/day, major rune, greater glyph of warding 1/day)
channel energy (7d6, DC 17+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (2 7th, 3 6th, 3 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
Favored one class
8th level
wizard abilities: (6th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 3/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (2 3rd, 3 2nd, 3 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (4th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 2/day, shield other 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 2/day, secret page 1/day)
channel energy (2d6, DC 12+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (2 2nd, 3 1st, 4 0 level)
16th level
wizard abilities: (13th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 6/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day, scrying adept, contact other plane 1/day, true seeing 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, spell resistance, scry on familiar)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (1 7th, 2 6th, 3 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (8th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 4/day, shield other 1/day, aura of protection)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 4/day, secret page 1/day, major rune)
channel energy (4d6, DC 14+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (2 4th, 3 3rd, 3 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
20th level
wizard abilities: (16th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 8/day, see invisibility 1/day, tongues 1/day, scrying adept, contact other plane 1/day, true seeing 1/day, greater scrying 1/day, moment of prescience 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, spell resistance, scry on familiar)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat, Bonus Wizard Feat, Bonus Wizard Feat
spells (2 8th, 3 7th, 3 6th, 4 5th, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
cleric abilities: (12th level unless otherwise noted)
domain powers – Protection domain (resistant touch, sanctuary 6/day, shield other 1/day, aura of protection, spell resistance 1/day)
domain powers – Rune domain (minor rune, erase 6/day, secret page 1/day, major rune, greater glyph of warding 1/day)
channel energy (6d6, DC 16+Cha Mod) 3+Cha Mod/day
spells (2 6th, 3 5th, 3 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 4 1st, 4 0 level)
In general I’m happy with this outcome. In either set the spells were less powerful than what could be done with the mystic theurge. They were often lagging a spell level behind (expect at the earliest levels of mystic theurge. That level of spells in traded in for a number of lower level abilities. To me, it looks about right just eyeballing it. It allows the wizard/cleric to operate without a prestige class, but mystic theurges still are better at performing their specialty (casting spells).
Next will be rakshasa sets that help me look at spellcasting monsters PCs with classes. Unless someone is very helpful and knows of another spellcasting monster that has less of a minimum effective character level than the rakshasa.
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Some comments on your idea. First, I would suggest that any identical abilities should not advance on the off class at all, instead they should simply stack like normal. So a Wizard/ Sorcerer with Arcane Bloodline who got a familiar the two class levels would stack... That would likely eliminate a bit of the issues where you are dealing with abilities that are higher level than character level. Uncanny Dodge is another such ability.
If I'm reading this correctly the classes both advance in all their class features? I would suggest instead that you should identify which class features could advance this way and leave the rest of the features where they are. So maybe casters could advance caster level, rogues sneak attack, but casters wouldn't get higher SLAs and rogues would get any new class abilities.
Have you tried this with a less than even split? For example Sorcerer 2/ Monk 18.
One thing that concerns me about this is that it seriously bumps up the power level of multi class characters. Considering what I've seen with the current multi class system on the character optimization board that is maybe asking for trouble.
-- Dennis
The stacking idea sounds reasonable, I am just worried about it getting very complex with three or more classes. I rather it is be simple so that the player doesn't have to do seperate math for minor abilities (add the level of these two classes, subtract three, then add half the level of the other classes). It may not be as complex as I am thinking though.
Yeah, as written all class features are advanced. I am certain that this system can be balanced if the abilities that were improved were specified for each individual class. For example I am actually a little bit concerned that fighter levels will be too good if they grant many feats to people who take a reletively small number of levels in the class (I'm not certain it's bad, but it worries me a bit); I wouldn't have to worry about that if the fighter feats were not gained by multiclassing characters. However what I'm hoping from this rule is to create something that avoids special rules for each class, just to save on time to create them and the space in the books and such. I'm sure your idea would work, probably better I think, I just wanted to just keep the size of this rule short and sweet if I could manage it. I really do hope that it works like this or with slight modifications. But if it doesn't my next suggestion would be to do what you suggest.
The heavily lopsided multiclass was something I that showed up in the very beginning. I think that the limit on the bonus handles most of that. Currently your effective level in a class can not be more than double than your actual level in the class. So the Sorcerer 2/Monk 18 would have the abilities of a 4th level sorcerer (as opposed to a 10th level sorcerer without that cap). I have not looked though to see if it is unbalanced though, even with this limit, because I just assumed it was fine after that. I probably should still look at it.
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Compared to 20th level monk the multiclassed character not using the multiclassing rule loses:
1 base attack bonus
1 Fort
1 Ref
Loses about two hit points on average due to hit die change
4 skill points
1 point from the ki pool
empty body
+1 ac bonus
increase unarmed damage
perfect self
unlimited slow fall
And gains:
more class skills
2 Will
1st level bloodline power
eschew materials
at least four (probably five) 1st level spells per day
Spells Known
5 - 0 level
2 - 1st level
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Using the rule the character also gains:
3rd level bloodline power
two more 1st level spells per day
at least three (probably four) 2nd level spells per day
Spells Known
1 more 0 level
1 more 1st level (and one more 1st level spell from bloodline)
1 - 2nd level
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Either way, to me, it doesn't look like the multiclass character is more powerful than the 20th level monk or even that the versitility of the multiclassed character is guarenteed to be worth more that than the lost power. I am somewhat wary of characters that take only as many levels of their lesser class to keep getting bonuses from other class levels though. The end product to me seem to be a little high, I'm not completely sure though.
It definitly bumps the power of multiclassed characters, but I'm not so sure it will increase the power of the majority of characters from the optimization board. From what I remember that was usually a few levels in a couple base classes followed by several prestige classes. This rule doesn't improve the abilities of prestige classes and taking levels in prestige classes does not improve your base class abilities. So the Fighter 2/Ranger 3/Rogue 3/Prestige classes of awesome melee would not get anything extra, and the Fighter 2/Cleric 3/Bard 4/Bardic prestige classes would only get 1 more level of Fighter and Cleric abilities. If however there were incredible builds that only used base classes, then that would definitly concern me quite a bit. At least more than I am right now.
And thank you for your time so far.
Now there are two things bothering me enough to keep me up for quite a while almost into the early morning.
The first is that how poorly this works with classes that linearly improve, stack, and have different names. Like a warrior class that had all the fighter's abilities and they all stacked with the fighter abilities. Combining those two classes would create a class that is better than either class at nearly everything they do.
For a real class combination to show this, I would say rogue and the ninja (from Complete Adventurer). The rogue gets sneak attack and the ninja gets the similar sudden strike that has the same damage and increases at the same pace as a rogue's sneak attack.
I'm not exactly sure how to come to an elegant solution so that I can at least handle classes with various forms of sneak attack. Maybe say that sneak attack classes have a "sneak attacker level" and that would allow them to be capped when combining two similar classes. But then that might lead to problems when deciding how much of that "sneak attacker level" should advance a skirmish ability vs a sudden strike ability (when combining three classes, two of which have some form of sneak attack). I feel this is a significant problem for ease of use of this rule.
The second thing that is bothering me is that the first thing was keeping me awake in the first place. Maybe now that I got this down I might be able to get to sleep without stressing over 20th level rogue/ninjas that get an extra 24d6 of damage when attacking from hiding.
After seeing a comment on another thread I decided to try to do something real quick to compare an eldritch knight to a fighter/wizard that uses the multiclassing rule.
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Eldritch Knight without the rule: Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10
+16 base attack bonus
caster level 17
Fighter Abilities (2nd level):
Bonus feat (2), bravery +1
Wizard Abilities (8th level):
Arcane bond
Scribe Scroll
School power [evocation] (specialist bonus, energy ray, magic missile 4/day, scorching ray 1/day, lightning bolt 1/day, elemental wall)
Bonus feat
Spells (17th level)
Eldritch Knight (10th level):
Bonus feat
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Fighter 10/Wizard 10
+15 base attack bonus
caster level 14
Fighter Abilities (14th level):
Bonus feat (8), bravery +4, armor training (3), weapon training (3)
Wizard Abilities (14th level):
Arcane bond
Scribe Scroll
School power [evocation] (specialist bonus, energy ray, magic missile 7/day, scorching ray 1/day, lightning bolt 1/day, elemental wall, wall of force 1/day, chain lightning 1/day, prismatic spray 1/day)
Bonus feat (2)
Spells (14th level)
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I'm not feeling too clear headed right now, so I'm not really sure how this turned out. The Eldritch Knight has more powerful spells (9th vs 7th) as well as a slightly higher base attack bonus (one higher), but the fighter/wizard gets six more bonus feats (5 fighter, 1 wizard) plus three armor and weapon trainings.
Right now, to me, it seems close. I'm just not sure how much those higher level spells are worth in bonus feats and higher ac, attack, and damage. I think I try to come back to later and leave this here.
NOTE: Using the multiclassing rule the eldritch knight would also get armor training and another bonus fighter feat.
I still haven't come up with any answer that I feel is good. The quickest thing to come to me has been capping precision die damage to 1/2 character level rounded up ( and that they can choose with each attack how much of the attack is sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish dice ). It causes some issues for some characters that manage to exceed this limit already by taking (prestige classes or other base class; like the rogue 5/assassin 1 which gets four dice of precision damage despite having a character level of six). I don't really like how well this works but nothing better has come to my mind.
Now for the Rakshasa casters. As mentioned before when letting the caster level of a Rakshasa sorcerer go uncapped or even capped at ECL then the caster level was nearly identical to the caster level of a straight sorcerer of the same level. This has not changed. The Rakshasa lacks many of the sorcerer's other class abilities, their skills are much lower, and probably will be down hit points because of having less hit dice. However I don't think these alone counteract the rakshasa's extensive racial abilities at 20th level.
So I'll be capping the class abilities (sorcerer casting) at the hit dice.
While I think this stinks for monstrous characters with large level adjustments and little racial hit dice, I can't think of a better way to handle it. This combined with the rule from Unearthed Arcana that allows a character to reduce their level adjustment over a large number of level might produce some good results, but the rakshasa would take many levels before getting to the point where the level adjustment would be reduced by one (to a +6, I think it would need to be 35th level for this).
Base attack bonus +13
Spells as a 12th sorcerer
Bonus feat
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Rakshasa Sorcerer 3/Fighter 3 (Using rule)
Base attack bonus +11
Caster level 13
Sorcerer Abilities (6th level):
Eschew Materials
Arcane Bloodline: Arcane Bond, Metamagic Adept 1/day
Extra Spells Known (1st [identify] and 2nd level [invisibility])
Spells as a 13th level sorcerer
Fighter Abilities (6th level):
Bonus feats (4)
Bravery +2
Armor Training
Weapon Training
In this case the multiclassed character is more powerful in my opinion. I think it might be appropriate to try to drop the power below the prestige class option. This and other characters have been bugging me as well and I am tempted to lower the cap on effective character level from double class level to one and half times class level. That would maintain the current power for characters with level divided evenly between two classes, but reduce the power of characters that have been unbalanced levels. I'm not sure that this is the best, but I'm not really sure of anything so I'll just go with this for now and see how it works out.
If the cap is reduced to 1.5 times class level for the Rakshasa it's abilities change to:
Base attack bonus +11
Caster level 11
Sorcerer Abilities (4th level):
Eschew Materials
Arcane Bloodline: Arcane Bond, Metamagic Adept 1/day
Extra Spells Known (1st level [identify])
Spells as a 11th level sorcerer
Fighter Abilities (4th level):
Bonus feats (3)
Bravery +1
Armor Training
I think that this is closer to my goal of more powerful than currently, but less powerful than basic prestige class options.