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I'm not quite sure that I would characterize it as "abandonment" (although there is an argument for that) but there was a point where Hasbro made it pretty clear that they held 3rd edition and those customers who played it in disdain.
From the fake french guy in the intro video, to talking in podcasts about "putting a bullet in the head" of some semi-iconic monsters, to sneering that it only took "30 years" to change the magic/level mechanic, to telling us directly that some things were changed to make them "fun" (implying we were mistaken had we regarded them as fun before) and on and on.
Abandoned? I dunno.
Disrespected? Most certainly.
And unfortunately, that disrespect shown to their loyal customers has colored my impression of 4th edition ever since. Hasbro really needed to WOW me (pardon the pun) with this new edition.
Simply they fell far short.
Agreed Bear. I am one who feels 'betrayed' by WotC. I dont feel that about the designers, such as Bruce Cordell or Mike Mearls. They are gamers, and I respect their desire to put out a quality product.
I do not say 4e isnt a quality game. From what Ive seen it is excellent in its mechanics, and is just as much a role playing game as any other. But for me, it's not D&D, and it bugs me to see the logo on its materials.
If they had launched a new system and called it something diferent, Id likely had bought the books. I might even have played it. The issue I have is with the myriad lies that have been told, the brush off of staunch supporters and the ill treatment of the gaming community at large through announcments, podcasts, GSL and statements.
This is not from the game designers but from the corporate entity. An employee doesnt set the tone for a company, the company sets the tone for the employees.
I dont hold any ill will for the folks that are keeping their jobs by adhereing to the 'party line'. They have families to support and bills to pay. I do blame, and have the right to blame, the corporate entity that has brought this schism in the gaming community.
I never will bad mouth someone for playing a game they like. 4e, for many is a good system. Kudos to you all for enjoying it. Please continue and bring many gamers into the fold...just dont try to talk them into not expanding their horizons by trying out other systems. Thats not what us gamers are about.
CWM- Thank you for not getting trollish in yur posts, but you can bet there are many many many like me out there. Old gamers whove had our feathers ruffled and are thumbing our noses at the corporate entity called WotC. In our world, we have 2 ways to protest without getting thrown in jail. Thats 'stating our opinions' (which I will at every opportunity) and 'not buying products' (which I have promised myself not to do). I can say I am not alone. I would guess easily 40% of the players I know (probably 200-300 since I PBP on a couple game sites) are like me in their feelings. then 40% are like many who will support both systems. and the other 20% (currently anyway) will only be supporting 4e...
To me that means Paizo has more to gain than WotC does. WotC has more to lose. Does that mean that WotC will go out of business? I doubt it. I believe they will bring many new gamers to the RPG table. I just wont be sitting at that table to greet them.
Ill be sitting in the other room playing the same game I have been for many years...(since 1975 to be exact)...The game that smells like D&D, Plays like D&D, Has the same terms as D&D, Looks like D&D...but is called Pathfinder.
But as some wise folks have said over the years...If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck...its not a goose.
Once again, I dont begrudge your liking the game, dont begrudge my feeling of betrayal ;)
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The people that have lost perspective (not you by the way) are those that take their discomfort with 4e and their preference for 3e and turn it into an issue of BIBLICAL proportions.
You would think a plague has been loosed on the gaming world with the publication of 4e.
Why does anyone feel the need to come here and justify their choice not to play 4e by BASHING those of us that just want to play the darn game.
Happens, sadly.
Also happens that the 4e crowd comes along and looks down its nose at folks that dont like 4e for whatever reason, and feels the need to poop all over 3.x or pathfinder.
There was a thread in general doing just that a short while ago....
This whole thread started because of the over exaggerated claims of abandonment. I don't deel abandoned when I go into a 7-11 and can't get my favorite flavor Slurpee and therefore must choose my second favorite flavor - or *gasp* not buy one on that visit. I do not picket the place until they load up the machine with my chosen flavor.
I respect anyone that gives 4e an honest and unfiltered look and then decides to stick with 3e. But so many of the objections are clearly ill-informed and quite over-stated.
Well....its not quite an exaggeration. While WotC sales are at a high, Erki Mona has said that Pathfinders subscriptions have been increasing weekly since 4e annoucnement and as of release, are at an all time company high....apparantly some folks do feel abandoned and have decided to not move....
*shrug*
Gave the books a read, and pretty much confirmed what I already knew: its not for me.
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While WotC sales are at a high, Erki Mona has said that Pathfinders subscriptions have been increasing weekly since 4e annoucnement and as of release, are at an all time company high....apparantly some folks do feel abandoned and have decided to not move....
... or they just like 3e better. Why express it in terms of abandonment? I like the next bit you wrote ...
Gave the books a read, and pretty much confirmed what I already knew: its not for me.
I wish that everyone choosing to stick with 3e would say what you just said. 4e is not for you. That is the most honest expression of preference possible.
3e is not for me. I have played it out. It is still a game worth playing, just not for me.
It is all about preference.
Gave the books a read, and pretty much confirmed what I already knew: its not for me.
I wish that everyone choosing to stick with 3e would say what you just said. 4e is not for you. That is the most honest expression of preference possible.
More honest than giving specific reasons, or less offensive?
Why is it OK for 4e supporters to point out the shortcomings of 3.5, when 3.5 supporters are often demonized for making specific criticisms?
Though to be fair, I might also ask: Why is it OK for 3e supporters to point out the shortcomings of 4e, when 4e supporters are often demonized for making specific criticisms? Maybe I'll ask that another day ;)
CWM,
I'll refrain from addressing the issue of whether WoTC has actually abandonded the fans. Instead, I'd like to address the "sold out" status of the first print run. As many people have pointed out, a large majority of the first runs copies were undoubtedly grabbed by the big book store chains (B&N, Amazon, etc) who according to industry insiders could be returned to WoTC if they don't sell. You yourself pointed out that this does not equate popularity but merely the system is anticipated by sellers to generate a large profit. Even the pre-orders on Amazon which have gone exceptionally well does not indicate the system will be successful. The real test is yet to come in the later iterations of core books, splat books, and campaign books.
Admittedly they have sold out of the first run faster than 3.0 and 3.5. I'm not questioning that and will concede that point. But I don't think it means the system is auotmatically a success. Is it a good indication? Yes. Is it conclusive or even presumptive? No.
This story is not even close to being finished.
FP
I had preordered min from Amazon. The Friday of release I got an email stating that their estimated ship date has been pushed back a wee. That week I got another one stating that it had been pushed back to July 7th. I went to Borders, and they had only a third remaining from what was set out on Friday (I went to scope oout the new system thinking mine were on there way). Anyhow, I ended up purchasing the core set from Borders. They guy that runs my local gaming store said (just last night) they have been having trouble keeping them in stock.
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More honest than giving specific reasons, or less offensive?
Why is it OK for 4e supporters to point out the shortcomings of 3.5, when 3.5 supporters are often demonized for making specific criticisms?
Though to be fair, I might also ask: Why is it OK for 3e supporters to point out the shortcomings of 4e, when 4e supporters are often demonized for making specific criticisms? Maybe I'll ask that another day ;)
I think its great to point out actual shortcomings in 4e - the skills too broad, Eladrin Fey Step is way broken, no cone or line spells, etc. But even those are a matter of preference. Well, except for the fey step thing - that's just messed up.
But my point is this - some folks prefer 4e and some prefer 3e. Sure there are specific reasons but neither is a better system than the other. Let's face it though, the most vocal critics of 4e just cannot admit that 4e is a decent game with a decent system of rules. They feel the need to slag on it for every nit and pick that does not meet their taste. The worst part is that some just won't stop telling us all how much they hate the game.
I hope people continue to point out the shortcomings in 4e, 3e, Pathfinder, etc. etc. How else can we learn about these games if all we ever hear are the things we like about them?
But the context of the discussion is far too often in the form of a debate about which game is actually better. The honest expression of preference is "it is not for me" because in the end it's about taste rather than some form of objective rank or evaluation.
I think its great to point out actual shortcomings in 4e - the skills too broad, Eladrin Fey Step is way broken, no cone or line spells, etc. But even those are a matter of preference. Well, except for the fey step thing - that's just messed up.But my point is this - some folks prefer 4e and some prefer 3e. Sure there are specific reasons but neither is a better system than the other. Let's face it though, the most vocal critics of 4e just cannot admit that 4e is a decent game with a decent system of rules. They feel the need to slag on it for every nit and pick that does not meet their taste. The worst part is that some just won't stop telling us all how much they hate the game.
I hope people continue to point out the shortcomings in 4e, 3e, Pathfinder, etc. etc. How else can we learn about these games if all we ever hear are the things we like about them?
But the context of the discussion is far too often in the form of a debate about which game is actually better. The honest expression of preference is "it is not for me" because in the end it's about taste rather than some form of objective rank or evaluation.
I'd just like to say that, while we have been on different sides of the fence before, I completely agree with this statement (well, except maybe some of the specific 4e rules comments, just because I don't want to over generalize here).
Have you read my blog comments on 4th? I'd honestly be interested in what you think of my comments there.
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Well, they definitely didn't abandon the US military--WotC donated at least one (some larger installations got two or three) 4e core set to every overseas MWR (that's a military recreation center located on overseas bases), along with all kinds of other game paraphernalia--like multiple sets of dice. A very, very cool gesture.Good to hear they are supporting the troops. Deployment is a lot like jail time, and there are often long boring stretches punctuated by short adrenaline-soaked ones. I know some of the best RPGing I ever did was in uniform. Plus people understood combat tactics so much better!
--Since we give our units names like werewolves, centaurs, goblins, orcs, necrons (my last station had all these), we can talk about encounters and actions in the office and at lunch and no-one really notices:
"The goblins kicked our asses in the second encounter! Never saw the ambush coming!"
If anyone even hears us at all they think we're talking about wargames... wait... I guess we are...
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... or they just like 3e better. Why express it in terms of abandonment? I like the next bit you wrote ...I wish that everyone choosing to stick with 3e would say what you just said. 4e is not for you. That is the most honest expression of preference possible.
3e is not for me. I have played it out. It is still a game worth playing, just not for me.
It is all about preference.
If they like 3e better than 4e, part of it, besides mechanics IS that WOTC really took a chainsaw to the past. They abandoned pretty much all that came before.
If more 4e folks were like you, there'd be less arguements. Just like some 3e idiots come in and poop all over 4e threads, we see it just as much in pathfinder and other places the reverse.
Thank you. 3.5 still holds alot to be done for me. I have literally decades worth of stuff if I play every week I still can or havent used yet. Way many areas to explore still.
Besides the break away from teh past, and bad mechnics(at least to me) 4e also just feels so incomplete. But that may be a hold over from all that I have in 3e.
And the fact that Paizo's quality is not going folward, and a good chunk of other 3rd party publishes who's stuff I enjoy arent, also contributes to it.
The new GSL is also part of that decsion, and part of the abandonment too. Its a much clearer case. 4e will never have the quality support we enjoyed under 3e and OGL. and thats sad.
Dread,
Agreed, although I cannot help but to point out that it's doubtful that Hasbro required Mr Mearls et.al. to crow about "30 years" or required them to use the phrase "putting a bullet in the head" on the official podcasts.
The tone may well have been set by the company as a whole, but those who have had direct contact with the customer have, unfortunately, taken that tone and run with it.
I continued to play D&D after Mr. Gygax decided that we have to play it just as it was written in the AD&D books, or we weren't playing AD&D, we were playing "something else" and I am certainly going to continue to play D&D after this situation.
Simply, I have less respect for the company and its employees.
Then again, I have been there before.
Best to you.
--Since we give our units names like werewolves, centaurs, goblins, orcs, necrons (my last station had all these), we can talk about encounters and actions in the office and at lunch and no-one really notices:"The goblins kicked our asses in the second encounter! Never saw the ambush coming!"
If anyone even hears us at all they think we're talking about wargames... wait... I guess we are...
It was also nice to play with folks who have actually carried packs of gear on long journeys and didn't get mad when you disallowed carrying back the solid gold throne of Ichorbones the lich from the dungeon. Also, talk about a captive audience! Folks on deployment love any sort of diversion, although we never got the body count that a good Spades game would, LOL.
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It was also nice to play with folks who have actually carried packs of gear on long journeys and didn't get mad when you disallowed carrying back the solid gold throne of Ichorbones the lich from the dungeon.
Reminds me of a camping trip our D&D group went on, we were walking along, packs on our backs, when one of us piped up "This is just like a session of D&D..."
...before tripping over a tree-root, and rolling down the hill.
Needless to say, this got brought up in future sessions.
"You all set off over the hills...everybody make a Dex check...".
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Honestly, I am very POed at Wizards. I took it pretty personal. I was a loyal buyer of their books for years. Am I supposed to throw away all that on a whim? Whoopidy doo! A new system that says you stupidity fool! Now as everyone switches to 4th Edition b!tches, you stare at 3rd Edition and wish for your riches. If everyone is playing 3rd Edition, than my thousands are worth something, but if they are not....than I am some backward pragmatic guy holding on to old outdated volumes. 3rd Edition was NOT a bad system, and it is fairly clear they made a new edition to get back control of their license.
So upset that RPG Foundry will not support my D&D 3.5 Supplemental library electronically. Code Monkey: DENIED
So upset that Margaret Weis Productions won't produce anymore 3.5 content for Dragonlance. MW Productions: DENIED
So upset that Greyhawk and Eberron will no longer get any 3.5 support from DUNGEON & DRAGON Magazine. PAIZO: DENIED
It makes me so furious that this was all about ripping control away from 3rd Party Developers as well as cutting short my love of the game that 3.5 is.
It was hurtful, and anyone who doesn't care about this is welcome to an opinion for better or for worse.
My opinion is that this idea was thrust upon me when I was most content with the game. I am completely discontent with D&D now. I have 77 hardbound books from WotC which 4.0 basically tells me is worthless. I want to see the D&D brand name for sale to the highest bidder as soon as possible.
I hate change for change sake. If you find something you like and they just take it away and replace it with something else and ask for more money (again) for something you don't want, what do you say to that?
I say Piss Off and goodbye.
Their numbers and figures maybe right, but they obviously not thinking about a sap like me. A sap that bought their products religiously like some fanatic. Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.
I care nothing for the D&D Brand anymore...as I am sure they care nothing for me (a diehard buyer who kept them in money all these years).
I feel lucky Paizo exists. It is like something survived this thing through a loophole in corporate miscalculation. This is 3.5's last stand, and I really have no sympathy for anyone who promotes harmony between editions. I will own these first (3) 4th edition books. I will look on them with hatred, because they killed something I really enjoyed. I will place them among my collection as a reminder to how stupid I was. I want WotC brand of D&D to die out. I can say nothing more.
Cheers,
Zux
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Their numbers and figures maybe right, but they obviously not thinking about a sap like me. A sap that bought their products religiously like some fanatic. Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay...
STOP TALKING DRIVEL!
For crying out loud, I own every D&D book since chainmail (with about 20-30 missing from basic and AD&D). I've also supported numerous 3PP and I love the edition change, so assuming CWM's opinion is formed by lack of investment is just idiocy.
Just because you think that Wotc are pursuing a personal vendetta against you, trying to milk you for more cash or simply because you don't like 4E doesn't make it true. And it certainly doesn't entitle you to belittle or bully people who are happy with the change or moan till they bleed from their ears.
And just because you were happy doesn't mean everyone was or that there was no room for improvement.
I've had a great deal of enjoyment from D&D/AD&D/AD&D 2nd edition/3.0/3.5 and I plan to do so from 4E and possibly 5th, 6th, 7th , 8th when they come out.
Don't like it write letters to Wotc, bombard their complaints team. Won't make a difference but at least their paid to put up with it.
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For crying out loud, I own every D&D book since chainmail (with about 20-30 missing from basic and AD&D). I've also supported numerous 3PP and I love the edition change, so assuming CWM's opinion is formed by lack of investment is just idiocy.
As you have stated for yourself, I could very well be wrong about that. He could own a copy of chainmail (as do I). I apologize for any insult that you may have felt.
Just because you think that Wotc are pursuing a personal vendetta against you, trying to milk you for more cash or simply because you don't like 4E doesn't make it true. And it certainly doesn't entitle you to belittle or bully people who are happy with the change or moan till they bleed from their ears.
Again, you are right...insults and bullying are no good. As for vendettas, I don't own a gun. Sorry again. However, your tone is no more tactful than mine. I have an opinion as everyone else does. Is mine so wrong that it stands out as bad? Perhaps.
And just because you were happy doesn't mean everyone was or that there was no room for improvement.
Did I say I speak for everyone?
Cheers,
Zux
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For crying out loud, I own every D&D book since chainmail (with about 20-30 missing from basic and AD&D). I've also supported numerous 3PP and I love the edition change, so assuming CWM's opinion is formed by lack of investment is just idiocy.As you have stated for yourself, I could very well be wrong about that. He could own a copy of chainmail (as do I). I apologize for any insult that you may have felt.
Just because you think that Wotc are pursuing a personal vendetta against you, trying to milk you for more cash or simply because you don't like 4E doesn't make it true. And it certainly doesn't entitle you to belittle or bully people who are happy with the change or moan till they bleed from their ears.Again, you are right...insults and bullying are no good. As for vendettas, I don't own a gun. Sorry again. However, your tone is no more tactful than mine. I have an opinion as everyone else does. Is mine so wrong that it stands out as bad? Perhaps.
And just because you were happy doesn't mean everyone was or that there was no room for improvement.Did I say I speak for everyone?
Cheers,
Zux
Thanks. Seriously, for your measured response it gives me hope that we can get these boards back to some sense of civility.
Your right though I did exactly what I accused you of and for that I apologise.
I post/lurk/surf a number of boards and whilst I may not agree with your point of view I can emphasise with it but seeing it repeated over and over and over again has worn me a little thin.
I fully support your right to be upset with Wotc, dislike 4E but I fail to see what is achieved by people (not necessarily yourself) hanging on 4E boards and haranguing fans in a nonconstructive way.
3E is gone, no sorry not gone but no longer the official D&D and that is not going to change. No matter what people think 4E is going to be a success and will be the edition supported by Wotc and many (not all) 3PP.
Moaning or harassing people who do like and support this change will make no difference. Writing to and contacting Wotc will make no difference although that is the proper place to express your grievances.
It's done. Lets all accept that and move on, and perhaps, just perhaps we can all be supportive of each others choices and be a constructive contributor to each others games.
I really do hope that you'll visit these boards and contibute in the positive way I'm sure you normally do and encourage others to do likewise in both directions.
Anyway long ramble over
Later days.
The redesign altered and eliminated a great deal of material that has been part of the fabric of D&D for thirty years.I guess the reason I have difficulty finding empathy for this is that I have never been a big fan of D&D fluff. Apart from Living Greyhawk all of my D&D life has been spent in home brewed worlds that bore only passing resemblance to any "official" setting.
Makes sense more why you've been more pro-4e from the start. I know the knock down of the past advertisment style turned me against 4e a bit. Add in the GSL mess made it even worse. My last few campaigns have been in Iron Kingdoms, Ptolus, and Pathfinder. We tend to rely on wizards for the basic rules.
Having said that, now that Ive read the rulebooks Im figuring how to modify the rules for those settings. We are playing Keep on the Shadowfell and even my heavy roleplayers are involved more in the combat. The first campaign will be a homebrew. Havent done that since..... well 1e/2e days. Our other dm is already haveing our Crimson characters be 4e.
So I feel they abandoned the past but not so much the players. I'll get their rules books. But I wont be buying new realms or such. For the old realms/greyhawk/ravenloft/dragonlance/birthright, I have my old books and maps.
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Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.
Uh, no. I have an entire 7 foot tall, 4 foot wide bookshelf stuffed to the gills with 3.0, 3.5, and OGL games. Don't lecture me on investment.
Besides, I see games as entertainment. I enjoyed what I paid for but I no longer do.
I hold out no false hope that any corporate entity (even Paizo) will ensure that the games I buy remain relevant in perpetuity. I have been a gamer since 1975. You would not believe the amount of game material that has been rendered obsolete in my time as a gamer.
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I'd just like to say that, while we have been on different sides of the fence before, I completely agree with this statement (well, except maybe some of the specific 4e rules comments, just because I don't want to over generalize here).
Have you read my blog comments on 4th? I'd honestly be interested in what you think of my comments there.
I think your review is very fair and well reasoned. I think it gets to the heart of the matter - preference. Both games have mechanical quirks that some will not like. The difference is that the 4e quirks lend themselves to a particular mode of play that I happen to enjoy. The 3e quirks lend themselves to a mode of play that you happen to enjoy.
That is the wonderful thing about choice - we get to make it based on our own individual tastes and preferences.
The redesign altered and eliminated a great deal of material that has been part of the fabric of D&D for thirty years.
Except that it didn't.
I can walk down the street to the Frugal Muse and find 3e (and often 1/2e)used books right now. Everything that was part of previous editions of dnd still exists until every old book rots away which thanks to PDFs may not happen till the apocalypse.
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I realize Zuxius' post uses some strong language:
Honestly, I am very POed at Wizards. I took it pretty personal. I was a loyal buyer of their books for years. Am I supposed to throw away all that on a whim? Whoopidy doo! A new system that says you stupidity fool! Now as everyone switches to 4th Edition b!tches, you stare at 3rd Edition and wish for your riches. If everyone is playing 3rd Edition, than my thousands are worth something, but if they are not....than I am some backward pragmatic guy holding on to old outdated volumes. 3rd Edition was NOT a bad system, and it is fairly clear they made a new edition to get back control of their license.
So upset that RPG Foundry will not support my D&D 3.5 Supplemental library electronically. Code Monkey: DENIED
So upset that Margaret Weis Productions won't produce anymore 3.5 content for Dragonlance. MW Productions: DENIED
So upset that Greyhawk and Eberron will no longer get any 3.5 support from DUNGEON & DRAGON Magazine. PAIZO: DENIED
It makes me so furious that this was all about ripping control away from 3rd Party Developers as well as cutting short my love of the game that 3.5 is.
It was hurtful, and anyone who doesn't care about this is welcome to an opinion for better or for worse.
My opinion is that this idea was thrust upon me when I was most content with the game. I am completely discontent with D&D now. I have 77 hardbound books from WotC which 4.0 basically tells me is worthless. I want to see the D&D brand name for sale to the highest bidder as soon as possible.
I hate change for change sake. If you find something you like and they just take it away and replace it with something else and ask for more money (again) for something you don't want, what do you say to that?
I say Piss Off and goodbye.
Their numbers and figures maybe right, but they obviously not thinking about a sap like me. A sap that bought their products religiously like some fanatic. Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.
I care nothing for the D&D Brand anymore...as I am sure they care nothing for me (a diehard buyer who kept them in money all these years).
I feel lucky Paizo exists. It is like something survived this thing through a loophole in corporate miscalculation. This is 3.5's last stand, and I really have no sympathy for anyone who promotes harmony between editions. I will own these first (3) 4th edition books. I will look on them with hatred, because they killed something I really enjoyed. I will place them among my collection as a reminder to how stupid I was. I want WotC brand of D&D to die out. I can say nothing more.
Cheers,
Zux
However, for those who believe this is a simple matter of preference this time, please consider that the stakes have never been higher for a community of gamers to "stand up" and be counted, to be a part of 3.5's last stand in the face of everything Zuxius has said.
I'm not providing a complete endorsement of everything Zuxius has said, because while I feel many of the things listed here, I am not ready to say goodbye, nor do I wish ill will on anyone (even though I share Zuxius' level of loathing for wotc for reaching an all-time low).
I don't believe as a community we should stand by and make peace with 4e just because we are a wonderful community. I believe there are times in life to take a stand, and this is one such issue - the integrity of dungeons and dragons.
TSR (sometimes called 'they sue regularly') did indeed try to reign in their brand, but I didn't feel like there was malice, vileness, or evil intentions. At least when they sued, they were trying to protect the quality, and perhaps, the integrity of their product. The GSL, and the many sinister intentions outline by Zuxius makes for a compelling argument that wotc is just "banking" on this community to lie down and roll over (and make peace and move on) - - - and we shouldn't do that this time! At least, not yet. Why? Because the integrity of our game is at stake.
And yes, folks like Zuxius, Dread, myself, (and hundreds of others on these messageboards) are more than just upset and hurt, we want to see the open game movement continue, and flourish at PAIZO, and we know this requires rallyed support of the community and also other 3pps. I venture to say we hope to help inform the community, where helpful, that there is indeed a lot more at stake THIS TIME. I believe we're hoping to help voice the opinion that, just as PAIZO has decided not to be wotc's b+%%#, and create a game of their own to control and shape their own destiny - so too, must we as consumers step up and say we're sick of getting dicked around by wotc! We're taking our game, Pathfinder (formerly called Dungeons and Dragons 3.5), and protecting it's integrity and providing continued support for it, because 4e demonstrates that wotc has thrown tradition, history, continuity, and coherency out the figgin window.
I believe Horus is mistaken when he writes:
3E is gone, no sorry not gone but no longer the official D&D and that is not going to change. No matter what people think 4E is going to be a success and will be the edition supported by Wotc and many (not all) 3PP.
Because as I write this, I know 20 gamer-friends (just in my area) who feel just as Zuxius does, and believe that 3e is NOT gone, and who belive that wotc has lost their face credibility and are no longer the 'official' source of dungeons and dragons game materials, and who believe that 4e may be an adequate game but not a successful d&d game, and believe that 3pp's such as PAIZO who rise to this occasion will be rewarded by the continued following of the game's community.
3.5 Never Dies.
PRPG Forever!
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And yet still I find myself asking how sounding off at the fans of 4E mysteriously improves your position?
My assertion, poorly presented though it was, is that a board set aside for fans of the new edition to discuss that game is the wrong place to bemoan, wail or gnash your teeth about a change you and admittedly some (or if you wish many) others don't like.
How does alienating or victimising the 4E fans improve your position? All it does is create an unpleasant atmosphere between the two camps and achieves nothing except to continue the cycle of animosity for another day. Those who have changed to 4E aren't going to suddenly go "oh Pax Veritas is right, what a fool I've been" any more than your likely to suddenly become a diehard 4E convert.
I maintain that if your unhappy with Wotc decision then they are the people you need to contact/speak to, and I don't mean their message boards. Write letters, send emails etc.
If you are sincere about supporting the edition you love, stop b#!#&ing about the one you don't. Post on blogs and forums the things that make it great, write up the awesome games you've had run online games to show what you mean. Who knows you may even turn it all around so that 5th edition is a carbon copy of 3rd.
Honestly I like 4E and I think it will eclipse 3.x totally, but thats my opinion and I don't ram it down the throat of the people staying with 3.5
The redesign altered and eliminated a great deal of material that has been part of the fabric of D&D for thirty years.Except that it didn't.
I can walk down the street to the Frugal Muse and find 3e (and often 1/2e)used books right now. Everything that was part of previous editions of dnd still exists until every old book rots away which thanks to PDFs may not happen till the apocalypse.
To be fair the pdf's for 3rd party publishers will be pulled down soon if they go 4e.
However, the books aren't collapsing. I also havent heard they are pulling tsr/wizard pdfs. :)
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Horus, thanks for the clarification...
My assertion, poorly presented though it was, is that a board set aside for fans of the new edition to discuss that game is the wrong place to bemoan...
Yes... if a board is set aside for fans, it would pretty much suck to have to hear disagreeable statements. I don't believe this particular thread is one that has been set aside, though. I think we can agree that CWM has set this one up to openly dicuss the precise type of feelings that Zuxius and Dread are expressing. I, in turn, have posted my sentiments as well.
But yes. If a thread has been set aside for lovers-only, then I fully understand your point.
Further, I am familiar with CWM's interest in seperating 4e boards to further fulfill your interest in a fans only place to go. However, I'm obliged to point out that this has not happened, and part of what pisses people off about wotc is that they've made their boards "fans only" by not accepting critical and important feedback in those forums - and from many reports actually censored anything negative that was said about 4e. And since many of us love PAIZO for their openness, customer-focus, willingness to listen to this community, and user-centered design approaches - - - It remains partly an obligation for many of us to speak out against the ills of what wotc has done, continues to do, and what it has created in 4e that bothers us so. And that means, I believe, that Dred, Zuxius, WOTC's Nightmare, Razz, myself, and everyone else is welcome to fully participate in these 4e forums. Horus, please clarify if I still misunderstand your point...
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I continued to play D&D after Mr. Gygax decided that we have to play it just as it was written in the AD&D books, or we weren't playing AD&D, we were playing "something else" and I am certainly going to continue to play D&D after this situation.
Simply, I have less respect for the company and its employees.
Then again, I have been there before.
Best to you.
hahaha dont remind me...that caused quite the uproar back then I remember. "how dare he tell me I cant have house rules" ;)
We Gamers can be a passionate lot! :D
The redesign altered and eliminated a great deal of material that has been part of the fabric of D&D for thirty years.
Except that it didn't. I can walk down the street to the Frugal Muse and find 3e (and often 1/2e)used books right now. Everything that was part of previous editions of dnd still exists until every old book rots away which thanks to PDFs may not happen till the apocalypse.
That's not the point -- I'm talking about what is (or is not) available in 4e.
Eliminations:
- Half-orcs
- Vancian magic
- lances
- Great Wheel cosmology
- henchmen/cohorts
- druids
- monks
- bards
- multiclassing (4e's mechanism is significantly more limited)
- demonic succubi
- law & chaos as alignment components
- high elves
- more...
- and more...
...and part of what pisses people off about wotc is that they've made their boards "fans only" by not accepting critical and important feedback in those forums - and from many reports actually censored anything negative that was said about 4e. And since many of us love PAIZO for their openness, customer-focus, willingness to listen to this community, and user-centered design approaches
I agree so much!
I find WotC's policies to be quite offensive, and I think they support the claim made on this thread -- that WotC has abandoned fans. Opinions (from fans) that they find objectionable are unwelcome and sometimes censored. This is not the behavior of an organization that welcomes and is responsive to the desires of their customer base.
WotC's messageboards are nothing more than an arm of their advertising and PR departments.
Paizo, of course, welcomes any and all non-abusive opinions, and will often join the discussion -- at times to admit their own errors.
The redesign altered and eliminated a great deal of material that has been part of the fabric of D&D for thirty years.Except that it didn't. I can walk down the street to the Frugal Muse and find 3e (and often 1/2e)used books right now. Everything that was part of previous editions of dnd still exists until every old book rots away which thanks to PDFs may not happen till the apocalypse.That's not the point -- I'm talking about what is (or is not) available in 4e.
Eliminations:
If any of these have not been removed from D&D, I'd love to know. Maybe some will return, but they are currently gone, deliberately removed, unavailable for play (barring house rules).
- Half-orcs
- Vancian magic
- lances
- Great Wheel cosmology
- henchmen/cohorts
- druids
- monks
- bards
- multiclassing (4e's mechanism is significantly more limited)
- demonic succubi
- law & chaos as alignment components
- high elves
- more...
- and more...
I thing you are misconstruing things slightly by including things like "half-orcs" or "druids" in your elimination list. Both of those are simply character options that were not included in the initial release; in no way have they been eliminated from the game entirely. The devs have said repeatedly that we can expect all of them in future material.
Likewise, multiclassing IS still in 4E, albeit in a different form than it took in 3E. Which was likewise a different form than it took in 2E (and I think 2E was different from 1E, wasn't it? Was it even in 0E?)
I think your comment goes back to a different thread on this board re: the "incompleteness" of 4E. Every edition involves a change in the default character options offered at first. Things are always added and removed ... it is the nature of the game. It sucks when a choice you liked doesn't make the initial release, but it will surely eventually be offered (well, 3E had some pretty crazy ideas at the far edges ...)
Lastly, about the Great Wheel, that was simply part of the assumed setting, that was certainly not shared between all of the Campaign Settings. I'd expect we'd see the old Great Wheel were any setting re-done for 4E that used it (Planescape or Greyhawk, perhaps)
Cheers! :)
Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.
I can't speak for CWM but my D&D collection breaks down roughly as follows.
In 1E I have a couple of thousand dollars worth of product.
2E was by far my biggest era in terms of spending. I'd not be suprised to find I have over $5000 dollars worth of product from that era.
3.x was pretty light. Its actually the era were I probably spent the least, partly because they upgraded a bit faster and partly because I was ranting and frothing 'just say NO to the evil abomination that is 3rd edition'. When you have invested $5000 dollars into one edition of the game its pretty easy to feel that the following edition is not 'really' D&D. Hence I've pumped in about $1500 into this edition.
I also find it pretty easy to change by this point. I mean I've gotten used to the idea that change is coming. 4E won't be the last edition of the game unless D&D dies. There will be a 5E eventually.
My local only had 6 or 7 sets preordered not including me - I forgot to actually preorder. That being said there have been a steady stream of former Amazon customers coming by to pick up the books after canceling their online orders.I love reading your stuff CWM. We've butted heads a few times but I've always admired your civility, even if I don't always agree with your opinions. But after reading this, I have to ask two questions:
1. How can one of the biggest 4E supporters on these boards FORGET to pre-order the books he's spent months championing?!?!?!?! I've gotta know...
2. This is the more serious question, because after reading so many of your posts, I believe what I'm about to ask is what you would ask if a 3.5 supporter made a similar statement: How do you know "there have been a steady stream of former Amazon customers coming by to pick up the books after canceling their online orders"? Are you, or your FLGS employees, asking everyone who comes in "Did you cancel a pre-order on Amazon?" Or is it totally anecdotal? What qualifies as a "steady stream"?
You've called out many a poster and asked them to back up some claim they've made. I'd like to respectfully request you do the same.
No reply CWM? I think you're slipping Sir. Or you missed the request in the 400 or so other posts... :)
I don't believe as a community we should stand by and make peace with 4e just because we are a wonderful community.
Then the proper course of action is to bombard Eric, Lisa et al. with demands that they shut down the 4E forum and ban 4E discussion.
Clearly Paizo's policy is to be inclusive and they take step after step to try to keep things civil on these boards.
If you cannot or will not follow these rules and post with every intention of inciting a conflict then you have no right to post on this forum as you are in clear violation of the rules as lain down by Lisa. The rules that are displayed at the top of this forum and also contained in a stickied message at the top of this forum.
If you can be patient for a moment longer I think I can explain. I like to play characters that are atypical for the class or race. I once introduced character as a gardener and I had the ranks in profession gardener to back it up. Now some players have raised objections to my builds such as half orcs can not be wizards or a dwarf can not have a 10 con. I have always politely pointed out that no where in the rules does it state I can not build it that way. Now it is in the rules, play this race if you want to do XYZ. Clerics are leaders and fighters are defenders and here are the approved ways to build your PC. If you want to play in accordance to how WOTC feels that a class and race should be played then you are fine with 4e and roleplay is not problem. If you are not interested in obeying the orthodox role assigned to your class or race by 4e then this verison feel limiting. I should say it was a gut feel but it was 80% reason why I placed the 4e rules back on the shelf at the local game shop.
There is nothing stopping you in 4th Edition from having a dwarf with a Constitution of 10, or playing a character that was a gardener before going off adventuring. You didnt mention how in 3rd Edition that you played an "unorthodox" class, only that you played a race with a slightly below average ability score and called that "role-playing".
I find it funny that some people think that by taking a race and a class and lumping them together in a not-commonly used way makes you a role-player, or even good at it. Half-orc bards, dwarf sorcerers, and tiefling paladins have all been done before: it doesnt make your character special, or indicate any more role-playing talent than the guy playing a dwarf fighter with a Con of 20.Whenever I played a fighter in 3rd Edition, I played it with the intention of having a character that was competent at either melee or ranged combat, depending on my feat selection. I never went into the class considering how I could play against the class's strengths. Why would you play a cleric if not do be a healer? Would you play a rogue and try to charge into melee using, say, a greatsword?
I'm all for trying to make interesting characters, and 4th Edition actually encourages this a LOT more than D&D used to. Want to play a wizard that is also skilled in melee combat? Its easy enough to spend a feat to become proficient in a melee weapon of your choice, and to top it off you can also take Student of the Sword for an extra +1 to hit and the ability to mark an opponent. Since your attack bonus scales same as anyone else, you are actually reasonable on par with other characters (mainly barring the weapon's enhancement bonus). Much better than wizards with half the BAB, less Strength, and difficulty taking feats to help back up the choice.
Spare me the comment that I did not give 4e a fair chance. I am giving it far more of my time than any other game that failed to impress me in the first 45 min with the rule book.
I wasnt going to say that you didnt give it a fair chance (though you didnt even play it), but that you are hardly a reliable source on the flexibility of 4th Edition characters.
Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.I can't speak for CWM but my D&D collection breaks down roughly as follows.
In 1E I have a couple of thousand dollars worth of product.
2E was by far my biggest era in terms of spending. I'd not be suprised to find I have over $5000 dollars worth of product from that era.
3.x was pretty light. Its actually the era were I probably spent the least, partly because they upgraded a bit faster and partly because I was ranting and frothing 'just say NO to the evil abomination that is 3rd edition'. When you have invested $5000 dollars into one edition of the game its pretty easy to feel that the following edition is not 'really' D&D. Hence I've pumped in about $1500 into this edition.
I also find it pretty easy to change by this point. I mean I've gotten used to the idea that change is coming. 4E won't be the last edition of the game unless D&D dies. There will be a 5E eventually.
I was in high school up until the release of 3rd Edition, so thats where most of my money went to. I had over 100 supplements not counting Dragon, Dungeon, Dungeon Tiles, D&D Minis, and other accessories like flip-mats, and had no problem going into 4th Edition myself.
I can't take either side because I may end up playing both systems.
I'm thinking of dusting off the old "Into the Darkness" and converting it to the new system just to see if it is D&D.
What worries me is that WOTC is restricting what you can and can't do like the DCI in Magic the Gathering. That's why more people play Yugio or Pokemon. No banned cards at conventions.
They had better come out with further books giving back options.
By the way, I think the new game license is the Hasbro standard for games like Monopoly or Chutes and Ladders. It does not work for FRPGs and should be revised.
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No reply CWM? I think you're slipping Sir. Or you missed the request in the 400 or so other posts... :)
Sorry about that - I must have missed it when you originally posted it.
1. How can one of the biggest 4E supporters on these boards FORGET to pre-order the books he's spent months championing?!?!?!?! I've gotta know...
Actually it's quite simple - ADD. I often forget to do stuff like that. Fortunately I have known the manager there for nearly 25 years so he kept a boxed set for me.
2. This is the more serious question, because after reading so many of your posts, I believe what I'm about to ask is what you would ask if a 3.5 supporter made a similar statement: How do you know "there have been a steady stream of former Amazon customers coming by to pick up the books after canceling their online orders"? Are you, or your FLGS employees, asking everyone who comes in "Did you cancel a pre-order on Amazon?" Or is it totally anecdotal? What qualifies as a "steady stream"?
Like I said above - I have known the manager for 25 years. He and I talk shop all the time. He was telling me about all of the gamers that would come in to look at the books. He started cracking down with his whole "this is not a library" routine and he found that it turned into sales as folks decided they could not wait until July. Another FLGS nearby had such a great response from its customers that they put all of their 3e stuff up for sale at 40% off. I picked up Castle Greyhawk as i had missed it when my local had it. I also witnessed some of the Amazon orphan first hand during the World Wide Game Day. They came in to play and enjoyed themselves so much that they bought the books that day rather than wait for Amazon.
I know it's just anecdotal but at my local it seemed to happen very frequently over the last few weeks.
Like I said above - I have known the manager for 25 years. He and I talk shop all the time. He was telling me about all of the gamers that would come in to look at the books. He started cracking down with his whole "this is not a library" routine and he found that it turned into sales as folks decided they could not wait until July. Another FLGS nearby had such a great response from its customers that they put all of their 3e stuff up for sale at 40% off. I picked up Castle Greyhawk as i had missed it when my local had it. I also witnessed some of the Amazon orphan first hand during the World Wide Game Day. They came in to play and enjoyed themselves so much that they bought the books that day rather than wait for Amazon.
I know it's just anecdotal but at my local it seemed to happen very frequently over the last few weeks.
Fair enough! I was just really interested. I don't have a long term relationship with a FLGS owner unfortunately, but I do know that I frequent the local game stores and big chain retailers on a consistent basis and, like some others I'm seeing here on the boards, I'm not seeing much movement of product. After the initial launch blitz, where it FLEW off the shelves, and a follow-up minor bump on FreeRPG Day, displays seem to be constantly full everywhere. Casual inquiries are met with a "It's doing okay" and a shrug.
Sometimes I'm reading these threads, and I get feeling sorry for the people on both sides of 3.5e/4e who are so unhappy.
I've had a great time with 3.5; I've still got product I've never gotten around to using; and I'm likely to get more with the OGL sales that keep popping up (picked up all the Thieves World stuff for a song)! The AP's are pure gold. Pathfinder RPG is reinvigorating my interest in the basics of 3.5 and with the quality of Paizo's stuff, I know we're in for a good time.
I picked up the 4e books and from what I've read, it sounds like a fun game. I probably won't DM it, but I look forward to playing and discussing it on the boards. I've never done a pbp, but maybe 4e will be the way I give it a go.
We recently dug up our old characters from a 1ed campaign last played about 18 years ago and started running White Plume Mountain, which we had never gotten around to doing before. Fantastic!
While getting ready for that, I was digging through old boxes of supplies and found a pristine copy of The Scarlet Brotherhood, a Greyhawk supplement that I got at a store closing sale about 3 years ago and forgot about in a move. Its like new Greyhawk stuff was published for me!!
There are so many options right now. My gaming time is more limited, but I'm happier with D&D and the choices I have than ever before. Well, except for the mags. That gets a tear.
But otherwise... WOOT!
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Clerics are leaders and fighters are defenders and here are the approved ways to build your PC.
You do realize that the PHB talks about the difference between mechanical role - say defender - and the role you actually play. They talk about how a fighter can lead the party even though his abilities are expressed as a defender.
There is nothing limiting you from playing your character the way you would want. The limit (and it is the same limit as any edition of D&D) is what the rules allow your chosen race or class to actually do. Dwarves can't fly, elves are not heavy sleepers, fighters cannot throw spells, monks cannot be chaotic evil, etc.
Beyond the mechanics you may role play your PCs persona in any way you would like - no matter what RPG you play.
The redesign altered and eliminated a great deal of material that has been part of the fabric of D&D for thirty years.Except that it didn't.
I can walk down the street to the Frugal Muse and find 3e (and often 1/2e)used books right now. Everything that was part of previous editions of dnd still exists until every old book rots away which thanks to PDFs may not happen till the apocalypse.
To be fair the pdf's for 3rd party publishers will be pulled down soon if they go 4e.
However, the books aren't collapsing. I also havent heard they are pulling tsr/wizard pdfs. :)
Er, no, pdfs from 3pp will only be taken down if those pdfs were also made for 4e, i.e. no product can exist for both systems under the GSL. Now a publisher could just make a 4e version of their product without the GSL (and have to deal with potential legal backlash), or just make a separate line of stuff for 4e. I'd really like to see Paizo do the latter. I mean maybe Golarion is much better suited to 3.5 DnD, but maybe if they divert part of their creative efforts to a campaign setting suited for 4e (in a non-tongue-in-cheek manner mind you) that'd be awesome.
I can't take either side because I may end up playing both systems.
I'm thinking of dusting off the old "Into the Darkness" and converting it to the new system just to see if it is D&D.What worries me is that WOTC is restricting what you can and can't do like the DCI in Magic the Gathering. That's why more people play Yugio or Pokemon. No banned cards at conventions.
They had better come out with further books giving back options.By the way, I think the new game license is the Hasbro standard for games like Monopoly or Chutes and Ladders. It does not work for FRPGs and should be revised.
Dude, they already have something like the DCI, it's called the RPGA, and they do dictate how you play. And what did they take away exactly?
BTW they started banning cards from Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon tournaments a while ago.
Chief Technical Officer
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Er, no, pdfs from 3pp will only be taken down if those pdfs were also made for 4e, i.e. no product can exist for both systems under the GSL.
Actually, Scott Rouse indicated that the d20 license would be going away by the end of the year, and that publishers would no longer be able to sell d20 PDFs whether or not they convert anything under the GSL. In most cases, the publishers can apparently just remove the d20 branding and repost them as OGL products, but I suspect some publishers won't bother with some products.
Er, no, pdfs from 3pp will only be taken down if those pdfs were also made for 4e, i.e. no product can exist for both systems under the GSL.Actually, Scott Rouse indicated that the d20 license would be going away by the end of the year, and that publishers would no longer be able to sell d20 PDFs whether or not they convert anything under the GSL. In most cases, the publishers can apparently just remove the d20 branding and repost them as OGL products, but I suspect some publishers won't bother with some products.
So they'll have to fiddle around with the pdfs, it's not a bad thing. Not to mention I noticed a lot of publishers didn't even bother to use the d20 license.
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In most cases, the publishers can apparently just remove the d20 branding and repost them as OGL products, but I suspect some publishers won't bother with some products.
I've heard this statement from several publishers, and it puzzles me.
How difficult is it to change a d20 pdf to OGL?
The d20 logo is usually on the front and back covers, contents page, and there's a copy of the licence.
The main problem I could forsee is if the product references some iconic non-SRD creature, which would need replacing.
Is it more difficult than it seems?
I understand and accept that print products have a natural lifespan, but it appears odd to me that a company could have a product that sold well up to now, but discontinue it's electronic version, for the sake of a few hours work.
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Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.
Ok, I apologize for saying something that really should not have been said. It was crass and insinuative and utterly wrong.
Truly, I deserve a kick in the pants from everyone. Even the ones who have stated in the past they like what I say. I dirtied everyone on that sentence.
Cheers,
Zux
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Not like you CWM, who probably owns some 10 books at most and can't wait to sell them off on eBay like some old newspaper.Ok, I apologize for saying something that really should not have been said. It was crass and insinuative and utterly wrong.
Truly, I deserve a kick in the pants from everyone. Even the ones who have stated in the past they like what I say. I dirtied everyone on that sentence.
Cheers,
Zux
No worries. Passions tend to run high here. I appreciate and accept your apology.
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I maintain that if your unhappy with Wotc decision then they are the people you need to contact/speak to, and I don't mean their message boards. Write letters, send emails etc.
That would be like calling the Bushes up (take your pick) and telling them we should keep waiting for negotiations to be productive, even though their invasions in the middle east are already half completed.
Anyway, I thought about my hasty words and I think I should have used more guile and less brute. I am not too happy with the D&D Brand for sure, but I do like WotC's Star Wars Saga Edition as well as the Axis & Allies Minis, Board Games, etc. I will even continue to buy Dungeon Tiles. I am not the type to chime in and boycott a company over their "lack of consideration for me, just me".
I also realize that their is some serious talent under the hood at D&D central. Paizo and WotC have made exchanges in personel in the past, and the quality is there on both sides. I don't think 4th Edition will crank out strictly crap, because they have too much experience in their craft to let that happen.
However, this whole thing is divisive and that is that. I also believe that the D&D Brand has been in less secure management in the past, and from time to time this will happen.
As far as the OGL, I really feel this is the last we will ever see of it again from D&D directly. That is a pity. 4th Edition will have to stand solely on WotC's merits. That will be a lot less options for gamers. If anything has been abandoned, it is the fan's options to play this brand of D&D through 3rd party options.
I want 3.5 OGL to flourish for selfish reasons. You want to see 4th Edition flourish. I am not sure both can share the limelight, but I know which one I rather see.
I was more 1st Edition than 3rd Edition in the day, but one day I decided to go 3rd Edition because it really put the minis out in the forefront and I thought that was cool.
I hear 4th Edition takes that even further and that is intrigueing, but I really haven't finished enjoying my 3.5 edition books. I really don't believe WotC will ever create that many books again for any version...
Cheers,
Zux