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<tongue-firmly-in-cheek>
Perception? No, because they are a bit hard of hearing and their sight is not that hot after getting smacked over the head during warhammer practice.
Stealth? Armor check penalty.
More skills? At 2+ Int/level, not that exciting.
</tongue-firmly-in-cheek>
Now, a finesse fighter with decent Wisdom and Skill focus: Perception and Skill focus: Stealth will be a decent infiltrator. Feats are cheap.
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Because the role of alert scout/sentry is filled by the rogue and the ranger, and the druid as well. Besides, fighters typically have on big helmets and noisy armor, or at least they did when they went to fighter traning camp (to pick up that proficiency in all armor and all simple and martial weapons).
Perception I can see - fighters should be capable sentries.
Stealth? No. It doesn't make sense.
No to both, just unnecessary under the current system. A fighter with perception and stealth skills is a ranger.
New rules about no cross class will make it easier for you to build a fighter that way plus I think they should give fighter 4 + int skills just because you are a fighter does no mean you are stupid also they kinda get shafted in the power department. At higher levelss that is.
Yeah, the new skill system basically makes it so a Class Skill has an automatic Skill Focus bonus (that stacks with skill focus, but you get my drift).
A Fighter already gets a ton of feats, he can afford to drop a few on some skills he'd like to consider "class skills". Skill Focus Perception and Stealth, and put your points into those skills, and voila.. you've got the same as a person who didn't invest feats and has them as Class Skills.
Not needing to worry about limited resource of feats makes the Fighter capable of doing this.
I think I see what your trying to get at role wise. Even though they may not be the best at what they do, a fighter in real tactics is responsible for performing both in middle ages.
Unfortunately this role does seem to be more of a militarized barbarians.
I have to agree that I think Fighters should get Perception as a class skill; Stealth, not really.
From the very first Assyrian regular soldier, to Greek hoplites, to Roman legionaries and Praetorian guardsmen, to Viking huscarls, to mediaevel men-at-arms & palace guardsmen, to renaissance musketeers & mercenaries, to modern (1700's to present) soldiers, all of these have stood guard as sentries and piquets over their fellows. These duties have been performed in defensive positions, forward staging areas, in the line of battle itself (during lulls in the fighting), and if they were really lucky, for their leaders in the capitals of their respective nations. So I think it is safe to say that for time immemorial, Fighters have stood watch as part of their regular duties.
Perception, to me, also includes situational awareness. This is also what troops have always strived for: to know what is going on around them in battle. It is for this purpose (as well as to improve airflow for easier breathing) that we have seen the evolution of the helmet. The great helm was eventually discarded in favour of visored helmets, salets, and basinets, all of which offered much better visibility.
Now, for those who say that Perception should be a class skill to only Rangers and Rogues, I would say that these were specialist troops (or auxiliaries) that were available in far fewer numbers than Fighters. Their other skills would dictate that they be given more specialized taskings, and therefore not be as readily available to use as sentries or guards as Fighters were. Such taskings might be to infiltrate a castle under siege, eliminate the sentries, lower the drawbridge, and hold it until relieved by assaulting troops, thus breaking the siege. Maybe to slip into an enemy camp/town and kidnap/assassinate someone or steal something in a completely covert manner. Or to locate and maintain contact with/observation of a mobile enemy force, and pass on the information to the command authority in a timely fashion.
Stealth...
The average guard putting ranks into perception but not getting it as a class skill is not at a disadvantage to the average fighter sneaking into the camp as they don't get stealth as a class skill....
so they perform guard duty amirably against thier fellow fighters...Now those rare specialty troops sneak in and do all the harm cause there aren't usually enough specialty troops to guard against them as you so pointed out.
BTW most sentries aren't fighters either as the bulk of the fighting troops are Warriors not fighters. Fighters tend to be the leaders and the elite troops... and i don't know too many nations (the Mongols being an exception) that used thier elite troops as night sentries.
Is the discussion really about giving Perception to fighter to make them better GUARDS?
And does giving Perception to fighter for awareness on the field defeat the purpose of sending scouts?
And if all fighters are more aware, what would happen when your Rogue will try to sneak past them? hehe!
I am totally against Perception for Fighters, for game balance. Each class must have specifics roles, and I don't think the role of the Fighter class is to be aware.
Remember, this is a game, even if we are trying to get close to reality. (thanks for all historical references)
Perception not being a class skill only denied the Fighter the +3 bonus, which is not a big penalty (compare to 3.5)
[...]I am totally against Perception for Fighters, for game balance. Each class must have specifics roles, and I don't think the role of the Fighter class is to be aware.[...]
I agree. Its not that Fighters are unaware. They are as perceptive as 99.9% of the population. Its just that Rogues and Rangers excel at it.
With the new skill system I don't even know if I would use the term excel - they now only have +3 to the check over other classes determined to max out the skill.
I have a proposition.
Instead of making Perception a class skill, why not add Alertness and/or Skill Focus: Perception on the fighter list of bonus feat?
I have a proposition. Instead of making Perception a class skill, why not add Alertness and/or Skill Focus: Perception on the fighter list of bonus feat?
I could see that working, although with every class getting a feat every second level I don't know if it is really needed.
Everyone should be able to use Perception. And everyone should be able to sneak it doesn't mean that they will be good at it. A fighter with all of it's check penalty will never be as good as the rogue. So everyone should just calm down.
Honestly it doesn't matter to me if the fighter is able to be stealthy, but every class should have perception as a class skill.
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Fighters should have Perception and Stealth as class skills. I have never understood why they don't have it.Perception definitely, else how will fighters be any use as guards?
Stealth no, I think that should be left to rogues & rangers.
I tend to use fighter/rogues as elite guards. Under the new system, it's less of an issue anyway. Just take skill focus: perception and they'll be at the same level as someone with it as a class skill. Guards really only need perception ("I see you.") and intimidation ("MOVE ALONG.") anyway. In fact, a level 5 human guard would probably look something like this:
Ability scores: STR 15 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8
Feats: Skill Focus: Perception [1] , Intimidating Prowess [1], Power Attack [1], Cleave [2], Overhand Chop [3], Backswing [4], Devastating Blow [5]
Skills: Perception +10, Intimidate +10, Profession (Soldier) +8
Gear: Longsword, Halberd, Chain Shirt or Breastplate, Heavy Crossbow with 20 bolts, uniform, wooden stool, cigar, bored expression
For one that's more used to standing atop a wall rather than in front of a gate, replace the overhand chop feat chain with point blank shot, precise shot, and crossbow mastery.
Since the difference between class and cc-skills isn't that big anymore, I don't actually see why fighters need those skills.
Actually, I would REDUCE the number of class skills to the ABSOLUTE FUNDAMENTALS.
BUT, I would add the rule, that you may choose one additional class skill (at first character level) per INT-bonus.
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I think that under the new system, Fighter can afford to keep Perception as a cross-class skill.
I do have a thoguht. Besides a feat to grant a +3 bonus to a skill (skill focus), why not provide a feat that turns a skill into a class skill.
Thus, the fighter could take 2 feats to get a +6 bonus on the skill compared to a normal fighter, but a character who already had it as a class skill could only get a +3.
I would even go so far as to say Skill Focus should have a pre-req of having the skill as a class skill.
I think that under the new system, Fighter can afford to keep Perception as a cross-class skill.
I do have a thoguht. Besides a feat to grant a +3 bonus to a skill (skill focus), why not provide a feat that turns a skill into a class skill.
Thus, the fighter could take 2 feats to get a +6 bonus on the skill compared to a normal fighter, but a character who already had it as a class skill could only get a +3.
I would even go so far as to say Skill Focus should have a pre-req of having the skill as a class skill.
I totally agree!
First a feat to make a skill a class skill (and a +3bonus), than a feat for skill focus (another +3).
Is a feat to get one class skill is underpowered or is OK? Should this feat gives more than one class skill? (I don't think so...)
Actually I would use the +2/+2 feats for that... maybe not. ;)
But I agree to the prereq. for Skill Focus (must choose class skill).
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Fighters should have Perception and Stealth as class skills. I have never understood why they don't have it.Fighters clearly concentrate on fighting. They can have Perception if they need it, but I feel it quite reasonable that they do not get a bonus on it.
I never felt that stealth (hiding and moving silently) should be a part of the fighter repertoire.
Stealth I can see an argument for not including, but almost every other class, including barbarian, gets perception as a class skill. This is why I don't understand the fighter not having it.
I agree that it's not necessary to give perception and stealth to Fighters as class skills. As others have pointed out, the cross-class skills aren't that bad in PFRPG. And you can burn a feat or two if you want an armored guy who's a bit more observant.
The historical / reality-based arguments aren't really valid. D&D is a game, not a historical simulation.
Perception is nice, everyone hates getting surprised at the start of an encounter. But in terms of game balance, mechanics, roles, etc., Rogues and Rangers are meant to be the observant/sneaky ones. Barbarians grew up in the woods, so they get it as well.
Fighters are meant to be the tanks. To some extent, the rely on their friends to point them in the right direction, patch their boo-boos, drop in the artillery, etc. They don't pick locks, the kick down doors. You take levels in Fighter to be really good while armored up with a weapon in your hands. And you sacrifice some things for that. If you're character concept doesn't include wearing medium/heavy armor, there's little reason to go fighter.
At the end of the day, the classes are designed primarily around party dynamics at the gaming table. If you're going to be the fighter and deal damage encased in armor, you have to let your buddy in leather armor across the table do the sneaking and spoting.
I doesn't have to make sense from a "world-building" point of view. Don't get caught up wondering about the class levels that the castle guards have.
I can agree with giving Fighters Perception, but if they want Stealth, they will need to multi-class as a Rogue.
As to the comcept that "Everyone can use Perception", years of working in retail with customers that cannot see signs, items hanging under their noses and even a garbage truck dumping a commercial trash can, I can attest that some people have negative Perception scores!
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Fighters should have Perception and Stealth as class skills. I have never understood why they don't have it.
I'm curious to see the results of your hypothesis in game play. The designers of 3.x must have had a reason for the original rule. I'd especially like to see the examples on plate-wearing fighters crossing creaking floors or if you had such characters with more skill ranks than the party's rogue.
I'd also like to see examples such rules had on players playing rogues, scouts, and other stealthy types? Did your players shift to maximize their skill points once you announced your new rule?
This is just for one guy versus one guy. It gets complicated with multiple opponents using Perception, when things can become much tougher for the rogue - ten kobold 1st level warriors have a 40% chance of spotting a 20th level rogue sneaking by, just because of the odds of one rolling a 20.
The rule about skill check does not include automatic success on a natural 20.
Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.
Does your progression use standard skill check rule, or your house rule of automatic success?
flavorwise, adding stealth to the fighter skill list is a mistake. fighters are a step above normal warriors(the npc class) in that theyre attention is devoted to martial training. however, perception i might have thought differently on were the game still using the class/cross-class ranks system. Fighters are trained to be aware of their immediate surroundings, since anything you arent paying attention to during a fight will end up killing you, and during 3.0/3.5, i was a big defender of the idea of Spot and Listen being available as class skills for ALL classes. But with spot, listen, and search rolled into perception and no class/cross-class nonsense with Pathfinder, i see no need to make it a class skill, since they can choose to put a rank into the skill every level. they are still observant, but not nearly so much as folks who are paranoid and specifically meant to be sneaky bastiches.
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New rules about no cross class will make it easier for you to build a fighter that way plus I think they should give fighter 4 + int skills just because you are a fighter does no mean you are stupid also they kinda get shafted in the power department. At higher levelss that is.
I think everyone should get 4+ Int in skills.
Why is a Fighter any less good at Intimidation, or a Wizard any less good at studying Arcane Knowledges, or a Cleric at knowing Religious Lore... than a Rogue is at Sneaking?
-Uriel
New rules about no cross class will make it easier for you to build a fighter that way plus I think they should give fighter 4 + int skills just because you are a fighter does no mean you are stupid also they kinda get shafted in the power department. At higher levelss that is.I think everyone should get 4+ Int in skills.
Why is a Fighter any less good at Intimidation, or a Wizard any less good at studying Arcane Knowledges, or a Cleric at knowing Religious Lore... than a Rogue is at Sneaking?
-Uriel
they're not less good at it, but they spend more time on their class abilities as opposed to being very knowledgeable otherwise. A fighter can be great at intimidation IF he puts the points into it, clerics can know a great deal of lore IF they put points into it, and theyre always guaranteed at least 2 pts. every level to do so. But that isnt the drive of the class. Rogues? Bards? Rangers OTOH? Skill selection are part of what make those classes more versatile and useful. (at least IMO) though i do agree the wizard should be bumped to 4+INT for skill points, and have been IMC since i was playing 3.0 :p
There's been some great reasons in this thread for supporting why Perception should be a fighter class skill choice! I won't rehash all the reasons here, but I'm hoping Pathfinder design team members are reading this thread and strongly consider adding it in!
Really, when it comes down to it, this is a discussion more suited to DM campaign rules, than a general rule addition! Pathfinder has already added to the fighter's skills in Gazetteer! This, of course, was written as characters from a particular training program. I think that individual fighter's are going to have different focii, and that is as it should be...the cool thing about the skill system is that it rewards the characters with high Int scores!
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Not to muddy the muddy waters anymore (because I don't think Fighters should get either Perception or Stealth), but Commoners get Perception (see page 132). I think Commoners are the problem, not Fighters, but as it stands, when you go from being a lame commoner to a trained fighter, you get less perceptive :\