I am seriously starting to reconsider the wisdom of having At Will spell-like abilities replace 0 level spells. In a previous playtest my players demonstrated how Create Water (a 0 level Cleric and Druid spell) could be used in very destructive ways that should really be beyond its spell level.
Now we have exhibit B. Guidance, yet another 0 level Cleric and Druid spell. Although this only provides a one time bonus to a single roll, a party with advanced warning can have their Cleric or Druid pre-cast this spell. In a combat situation this is a poor tactic as there are other ability such a character can utilize. However in non-combat Skill Checks, it could be used to boost rolls where other skill boost are unavailable.
To illustrate the point I'd like you to picture this man as a dwarf druid with a charisma of 3. The party is tracking Goblins away from Sandpoint the day after the opening of Burnt Offerings. The druid player used Guidance to boost his survival skill roll. To which I inform him that generally a bonus on a skill check needs to be constant for the whole period, not just the start of the check. Meh, maybe not but here's what was generated as a result.
Every 6 seconds the dwarf druid then renewed Guidance and was dead sexy about it. To quote the player, "when I think about tracking I touch myself. When I think about goblins I touch myself." This went on for hours in-game (only a few minutes out-of-game).
I thought the good folks a Paizo would like read the unintended results of what would seem like a good solution.
Several rules come to mind in retrospect that would have... okay I'm not sure anything could have stopped this. First casting that spell takes a standard action which is already in use tracking. Second I should have had this characters patron deity (Gozreh) begin weeping (raining) openly, to be sure the druid won't be getting access to Guidance again for a while.
I'm still okay with 0-level spells being At Will, however all DMs should be prepared to handle 'creative and disturbing applications' of infinite low-level magic.
Getting a plus one bonus doesn't really bug me at all. I played a modified channeler in a Spycraft game and got used to the "at will" idea of cantrips/orisons, but I do agree now, with the create water issue. The spell creates something "real" that doesn't go away, and that has an effect on the game world, even if its not a problem mechanically, i.e. a druid could march into a desert and create his own oasis, and with enough clerics, no community should ever have a water shortage.
Yeah, wow. The create water at will thing really is a potent as hell ability. Nomads living in a desert? Train up someone as a cleric or druid and pamper them like crazy so that they'll keep giving you water all day long. Amazing. That spell may have to go the way of the dodo just to ensure a world can have a logical ecosystem where farmers wait for rain and desert dwellers fight over oases...
Just a couple weeks ago, using 3.5 rules btw, I was playing a cleric and we were in the first volume of Rise of the Rune Lords. Anyway, at some point we were in a situation where there were goblin snipers above us. I was using a long spear and couldn't reach them, so I cast create water like 15 feet above a goblin standing on a pillar. I figured the weight of a few gallons from several feet above would have some sort of force to it, and the GM agreed. I knocked a goblin off a tall pillar, it took falling damage, was prone, and all for the price of that one preparation of a CANTRIP and a standard action. :-D
With the above as a preface, I'm not really sure if the spell is a first level spell. It's definitely too powerful a cantrip in the Pathfinder system, though. Maybe it should just have it's affect changed or clarified for this set up so it preserves the usefulness without allowing the brokenness mentioned by others in the thread and myself.
There are a few issues with it.
For example, I found my sorc/wizard characters casting resistance on a constant basis. It only lasts 1 minute but it can be used an infinite number of times.
None of the examples really want me to change this idea though. Perhaps some alterations need to be made, but I can't tell you how happy I am for some minor at-will abilities that don't follow the normal system.
Any problems are massively overshadowed like a gerbil standing next to a Mammoth.
Also, spells like create water might have a problem, but I often choose that spells like this don't actually create, adding additional mass to the planet but are rather pulled from the surrounding enviroment or temporarily summoned from another plane. If the first was an option in-game in a desert, I would probably let the spell be cast a fair number of times and then it would start failing due to lack of water in the surrounding area to pull from. As far as the magical fire-brigade...I actually kind of like this concept!
In our game one of our players is playing a Human Druid with some Exalted feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds. He doesn't like combat personally and always seeks methods to benefit the group in other ways. Besides his ability to cure wounds, he wondered how he could be an asset to the group in combat.
I reminded him that his Orisons are now usable at will.
Now he's hard pressed to decide which of several options each turn to take. When not needed for healing or summoning allies of nature he's running around like a madman casting Resistance and Guidance as much as possible. Both he and the rest of the group are having a great time!
A little +1 bonus is not unbalancing to the game and the new system keeps casters relavent after their spell slots have run out. I'm all for keeping the new system.
As for Create Water, we haven't playtested this directly yet, but I can see the potential problem. I'll ask him to prepare it for some experimentation. In case I don't get back with a playtest report, I'll go ahead on record now saying I for one have no problem with Create Water being changed into a level 1 spell.
Just a couple weeks ago, using 3.5 rules btw, I was playing a cleric and we were in the first volume of Rise of the Rune Lords. Anyway, at some point we were in a situation where there were goblin snipers above us. I was using a long spear and couldn't reach them, so I cast create water like 15 feet above a goblin standing on a pillar. I figured the weight of a few gallons from several feet above would have some sort of force to it, and the GM agreed. I knocked a goblin off a tall pillar, it took falling damage, was prone, and all for the price of that one preparation of a CANTRIP and a standard action. :-D
Prohibited by the rules. Conjuration (creation) spells cannot create objects mid-air. They have to be supported by a surface capable of supporting them. If they are not, the spell fails.
Similarly, you cannot use a Conjuration (summoning) spell to summon a creature into an environment that will not support it. No summoning Fire Elementals underwater, for example, nor can you summon a Rhino 30 feet up in midair above a goblin's head.
That is correct, conjurations in mid-air are kind of bending the rules. The water over goblins problem is solved there. However, the portable oasis can be a problem. Move the create water to level 1 or change the spell in some way. I had some questions on this unlimitted orisons, but after playing it this past weekend, I am really liking it.
Although I consider myself very old-school, and I like the fact that soem characters (wizards, clerics) do not alsways have something to do, it does give them more than just "healing" to do during or just after combat. I say keep the new rule.
Or, with a little rule-bending, you can create water inside your foes' bladders! Huzzah!
Imagine trying to hack a fighter when you really have to pee!
How about a limit as follows:
cantrip/orison uses per day: 10 + 1/2 levels
or: 1/2 primary spell attribute +1/2 levels (for example, a 2nd level wizard with an 18 Int would have 10 cantrip uses per day).
or: a maximimum of 5 uses per hour
There are many other ways this could be changed.
Just keep them at will. They are 0-level spells. They simply cannot break the game. If PCs are doing just that, be a real DM and don't let them do it.
|
If Create Water is such a problem, seems to me that Create Water needs to be changed, no how orison and cantrips work.
My players, specifically the cleric has already discovered Addictive Guidance Syndrome, but I don't see it as harmful.
As for Create Water, yeah, that's a problem ... add some sort of material component that costs 1 gp, and that'll fix the problem, right quick.
|
After thinking about the water problem, the only thing needed is a rewording of the spell.
To wit...
Create water causes a gallon of water to bubble out of the ground as if from a natural spring. For every round spent in prayer after the casting of the spell, another gallon of water bubbles forth. If those present have containers, they can catch the water which is always fresh and suitable for drinking, otherwise the water seeps into the soil immediately around the spring and is gone. When the cleric finishes his praying the water ceases to flow and seeps back into the ground leaving little trace that it was ever there.
I would allow that as a 0 level orison...
|
|
That is correct, conjurations in mid-air are kind of bending the rules. The water over goblins problem is solved there.
Actually, having just looked up the spell, those saying that creating the water in mid air is a rules breaker should read the spell text.
SRD: This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles.
|
|
As for Create Water, yeah, that's a problem ... add some sort of material component that costs 1 gp, and that'll fix the problem, right quick.How about 2 gallons of water?
That kind of defeats the purpose ... if you had 2 gallons of water, you really wouldn't need to cast Create Water, right?
As well, you still have the problem that if you have 2 gallons of water, you can now fill a ravine with infinite water ...
Just bump Create Water up to a 1st level spell and its fixed. I checked the rest of the 0 levels and nothing else has the potential for abuse as they are all very limited bonuses or have limited durations.
Problem solved.
Yeah - that's the way to go. Change the cantrip list, not the concept of at will cantrips. At will cantrips are great -- at some story level, it's the window dressing for what being magical is all about.
As far as Create Water goes, even if you create the downpour effect, it doesn't override the fact that you still need to have an area declared for it to go. You can't simply say "There's water up there." In the case of the goblin, the water comes down as a small downpour. Droplets spread out over an area. The goblin may be curious as to why it suddenly rained for a few seconds, but it's not going to knock him down.
Also, did the math 'cause I have no life.
If a 5th level wizard working to fill an olympic sized swimming pool:
2.5 million liters of water ~ 657900 gallons of water.
The Wizard can create 10 gallons of water per round.
Which would require 65790 rounds.
Which would be 6579 minutes.
Which would be ~110 hours.
Which would be a little over 4 and a half DAYS of literally non stop water making.
Also, did the math 'cause I have no life.
If a 5th level wizard working to fill an olympic sized swimming pool:
2.5 million liters of water ~ 657900 gallons of water.
The Wizard can create 10 gallons of water per round.
Which would require 65790 rounds.
Which would be 6579 minutes.
Which would be ~110 hours.
Which would be a little over 4 and a half DAYS of literally non stop water making.
Yet, the idea alone of it being possible (from level 1 nonetheless) seems exaggerated. I know its a fantasy world but yet, as long as you have water, you can grow things. If water isn't an issue, than hunger shouldn't be an issue either.
It's one thing to convince a druid to cast summon weather or plant growth on your crops, but to hire student wizards over the summer working the irrigation of your field for minimum wage...
Alright, so that was also exaggerated. Nevertheless, we could argue that access to water should not be an obstacle for PCs, but clean, drinkable water should still be a relatively rare and precious commodity in the world around the PCs IMO.
Another possible solution to the create water issue is to simply have the NPC spellcasters capable of casting the spell charge for the spell, to compensate for their time spent and the act of casting the spell itself. The only time this would be waived would be in times of extreme emergency (fires for instance), or in the case of the PCs (who are likely to charge more if they think they can get away with it).
I'd got off the cost of a 0-level scroll: 12 gp, 5 sp to start with.
To fill the aforementioned swimming pool by a 5th level cleric, the cost would be around 822,375 gold.
I seriously doubt there are very many countries in the average D&D setting willing to sink that much money into a mere 657,900 gallons of water, not to mention the cost of storing it, and distribution as well.
I don't know how much water a small town (D&D sized) would consume in a day, but I doubt that swimming pool amount would last very long.
And the local churches must surely have better things for their acolytes and higher ups to do than spend days continuously creating water...
The cost for creating a scroll is for a one-time use item. There is a point when if you intend to use it more than a few times per day, you might as well start making a more permanent version of the effect.
Pricing the create water item:
Command Word: 0th level (1/2) x caster level 1 x 1800gp.
900gp for an item that makes 2 gallons of water per round on command word.
Or if you want more uses/options and faster gallons per round, just get the pre-made Decanter of Endless Water. Here, I'll list it's details:
Decanter of Endless Water: If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out. Separate command words determine the type as well as the volume and velocity.
“Stream” pours out 1 gallon per round.
“Fountain” produces a 5-foot-long stream at 5 gallons per round.
“Geyser” produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round.The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down. The force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage but can only affect one target per round. The command word must be spoken to stop it.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, control water; Price 9,000 gp;Weight 2 lb.
These are two options in the core 3.5 rules already. Now granted, a DM can disallow the 900gp option. However I'm pretty sure nearly ANY town or nomad group can scrounge up 9k for something as important as lifegiving endless water supply.
Pathfinder isn't breaking anything that isn't already in the game, that would need to be dealt with in other ways.
Perhaps embrace it? Magic = Technology? We have to get over the fact that D&D isn't exactly medieval.. not with regenerate, raise dead, and a host of other technology replacing magic abound.
*Edit*
Math is fun.
A Decanter at full setting would fill that swimming pool in about a day and a bit. That's pretty spiffy if you ask me.
|
I'll add my 2 cents.
We converted to at-will Cantrips and Orisons well before Pathfinder was even announced. (This includes Cure Minor Wounds.) I cannot speak for any other group - but NO PLAYER abused any cantrip or orison . . . not even Cure Minor Wounds.
Still, I admit that I may have been blessed with a group of gamers who focused not on rules and loop holes, but rather, roleplaying.
I also play with a bunch of gamers who are willing to recognize with a rule is appearing abused . . . and even if it hurts them . . . they agree to discontinue.
|
|
This is really an issue of player abuse or creativity... Nothing wrong with the Pathfinder rules IMO.
Fine spend all day making water in a desert culture... OOO... you're all powerful and deserve worship. The second you stop producing water you are no longer worshipped... maybe even pissing of you old worshipers, they take it out on you for being a bad 'god'.
Seriously... the Create Water thing is an exception and a GM shouldn't allow it to disrupt the game. Dropping on a goblin is creative but wouldn't really knock him off his perch. And if a high level Wizard/Sorc uses a 0 level spell to good effect... great!
|
|
Fine spend all day making water in a desert culture... OOO... you're all powerful and deserve worship. The second you stop producing water you are no longer worshipped... maybe even pissing of you old worshipers, they take it out on you for being a bad 'god'.
Besides, what adventurer would want to hang out with a desert culture, for days, weeks, or months and roleplay this. (Granted, it would make an interesting low-level adventure - demanding of roleplaying with perhaps a moral lesson on rules abuse at the end.)
|
They are saying it's rules-breaking because the rules for conjuration cover ALL conjuration school spells, regardless of what the spell description says....
Other way around. Specific rules override general rules. Unless the spell description for a conjuration spell says otherwise, you can safely assume it follows all the pre-listed general rules for conjuration magic. The same can be said for any other rule as well.
Electric Jolt
Electric Slap
Electric Spark
And don't forget the ever-popular and useful Electric Slide ;)
Regards,
Colin Marco
Canadian Writing Director - Living Forgotten Realms
My group played through about a third of Burnt Offerings this weekend. They created Pathfinder characters for the adventure. One is a gnome sorcerer. She used the free daze to great effect every combat that the party entered -- and did an excellent job of preventing individual goblins from acting. The character has a CHA 20, and spell focus, so the DC versus daze was 17 -- not something most goblins can make.
I'm not sure it was a "game breaker", but it got a little old.
CJ
|
|
One way to fix some of these issues would be to extend the casting time on some of the non-combat cantrips/orisons. For example, if Guidance and create water took a entire turn, or maybe even an hour to cast, they'd be a little harder to abuse.
Or perhaps a "recharge" mechanic would be appropriate. For example, some cantrips/orisons would require an hour between castings, or somesuch.
I agree, limit them.
Prestidigitation is the pretty much the best spell in the game, so having it at-will has some interesting ramifications.
You could have a magical maid go house-to-house every Tuesday and charge a copper to clean everything up. 15 minutes later and its on to the next house :).
Adventurers will never be without clean or well-maintained clothing again! Guess that explains why the iconic look so darned snappy all the time ;).
Also, spells like create water might have a problem, but I often choose that spells like this don't actually create, adding additional mass to the planet but are rather pulled from the surrounding enviroment or temporarily summoned from another plane. If the first was an option in-game in a desert, I would probably let the spell be cast a fair number of times and then it would start failing due to lack of water in the surrounding area to pull from.
Perfect man, ruling so that it doesn't create water but instead pulls from nearby sources, you can easily keep it as a Cantrip and prevent abuse.
It even opens up story possibilities since you are taking water out from somewhere else you are affecting the beings living next to it; maybe draining the water out of a nearby village creek.
humm.. on a second thought, it would actually make the spell too powerful, wouldn't it? A cantrip able to affect a whole environment like nothing else...
Dark Sun concept working here...
I really like the new at will orisons/cantrips. It makes magic-using classes seem more magical.
But I think that GM's should very closely examine which spells they bump to 1st and which they leave as 0th.
In 1st edition create water was a first level spell (if memory serves me right). I would make the effect more "old school" and bump it to 1st.
CJ
"Abuse"? Not the word I would use. If your PCs are using this spell to win fights you either aren't handling it in accordance with the RAW or your PCs are really creative and deserve to win.
However, I would call it.. problematic. This spell would allow a focused (I would describe it as meditating) cleric to produce 600 gallons of water per hour. That changes the way the world works. A lot.
And it's fun to think about those changes, just as it's fun to think about the things changed by clerical healing, or resurrection.
But I think it's a major and unnecessary change in tone from a 3.5 setting to a 3.P setting.
|
|
It sounds like the biggest hurdle we're facing here isn't the rule, but rather those who abuse the rules. Remember, this is supposed to be all about having fun. If we spend all our time and energy stopping up loop holes, it could stifle game play.
But then again, I've been fortunate to play with reasonable and rational gamers. My players don't abuse the rules. Likewise, if something seems imbalanced, my players tend to be open to house ruling restrictions . . . even at their character's detriment.
I guess that's where the conflict between roleplaying and rollplaying occur.
|
|
Simple solution, all Cantrips/Orisons cast at will are cast with all the variables down as if the caster were only a first level caster. In the case of Create water, that means only 2 gallons of water, and only 25 feet away. If the player wishes to cast them at greater potency, allow that player's character to prepare the Cantrip/Orison in a first tier spell slot.
This way, you have balance and choice. The player can repeatedly cast Create Water at will for 2 gallons each time, but not 20 in one round without casting it as that First Tier.