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However, I would call it.. problematic. This spell would allow a focused (I would describe it as meditating) cleric to produce 600 gallons of water per hour. That changes the way the world works. A lot.And it's fun to think about those changes, just as it's fun to think about the things changed by clerical healing, or resurrection.
If you noticed, the world for which the rules are made (Pathfinder Chronicles) takes note of these changes.
In Crucible of Chaos we have a civilization who built flying cities, where water was provided by rainfall and clerics charged with the precise task of creating water non-stop.In the Guide to Korvosa there's a reference to the resurrection of the virgins sacrificed when building the church of Asmodeus in Korvosa.
Anyway... Of course the world changes a lot. It's magic. Pretending that a fantasy world "works" like a real-world medieval land is quite ridicolous, don't you agree? ;-)
create water, and the abuse of, was one of the first things we worried about when we saw cantrips / orisons were at will. mainly due to one of my players who is an evil genius when it comes to creative uses of spells (he's also sensible enough to highlight it to the ref early enough to give you a chance to stop him)
I have a simple solution. reduce the quantity created to one pint per casting regardless of level. even the class of student wizards would not be able to make a substantial difference to the local environment at that rate... but you can still spend time putting out a fire or creating enough drinking water for the party + mounts
my personal beef with unlimited cantrips is detect magic / poison
it makes a mage / cleric far too good at detecting traps and surprises. but again there is a simple solution in that you can just reduce the effective range of the spells to adjacent or 10' or so, and then it makes it easy but time consuming to search a room (as well as being more dangerous), but impossible to do an instant scan from a distance
so i'd just reduce the effectiveness of cantrips to compensate for the at will change
Simple solution, all Cantrips/Orisons cast at will are cast with all the variables down as if the caster were only a first level caster. In the case of Create water, that means only 2 gallons of water, and only 25 feet away. If the player wishes to cast them at greater potency, allow that player's character to prepare the Cantrip/Orison in a first tier spell slot.
This way, you have balance and choice. The player can repeatedly cast Create Water at will for 2 gallons each time, but not 20 in one round without casting it as that First Tier.
I respectfully disagree. The simplest way to ensure that everything is balanced is to revise the spell list and alter the wording of a few problematic 0-level spells. It's not a good idea to stipulate even more rules than we already have. It does bog down the system eventually.
Besides the obvious wierdness caused by create water, there's other spells that gave boosts and the reason they were cantrips was their limited duration. Give a player unlimited casting and the duration means nothing. What happens when every lvl 1 NPC starts using his new powers? Cure Minor Wound just means NPC spell casters heal at different speeds between level 1 and lvl 3 but in the end they both get the job done.
Cure Minor Wound has been removed from Pathfinder, and replaced with a Stablization spell that stops you from dying.
-Steve
The seeping into the soil could still be interpreted as being used to create fertile farmland where ecologically there shouldn't be any without an irrigation system. I really like the wording, but I would suggest that any water not ingested by a living creature within 1 min per caster level ceases to exist, regardless of the container it was captured in. After all, conjured creatures disappear after certain periods...why not water? Any thoughts?After thinking about the water problem, the only thing needed is a rewording of the spell.
To wit...
Create water causes a gallon of water to bubble out of the ground as if from a natural spring. For every round spent in prayer after the casting of the spell, another gallon of water bubbles forth. If those present have containers, they can catch the water which is always fresh and suitable for drinking, otherwise the water seeps into the soil immediately around the spring and is gone. When the cleric finishes his praying the water ceases to flow and seeps back into the ground leaving little trace that it was ever there.
I would allow that as a 0 level orison...
If it vanishes out of the ground, why wouldn't it vanish out of your metabolism?
What about a plant's metabolism?
Just seems weird. I'd rather give it a costly material component (imagine huge shipments of, say, 5 cp pearls being carried into the desert. Instant water- just add cleric!) or else make it a 1st level spell.
The Caltrops spell is unbalanced as a cantrip, even under the original rules. That should either be a first level spell, or else only last 1 round to be consistent with the power level of core cantrips. That's the fault of the spell, its writer, and the editor who neglected to catch it, rather than a fault of the unlimited cantrip proposal.
I miss how that caltrop spell is significantly better than an actual bag of caltrips (something any 1st level commoner can use).
This weekend, I played the Alpha rules for the first time and went with a cleric. I could see at-will orisons such as Virtue, Resistance and Guidance bogging down play a bit. Why wouldn't the cleric cast Guidance before every skill check every party member ever made? With a duration of 1 minute, why wouldn't he kick off 4 Virtue and 4 Resistance spells (given an average party size) to buff the entire party before they open any and EVERY door in a dungeon just in case there was an enemy? Assuming he does, then someone has to keep track of who got the spells in what order, since they'll all wear off at different times.
This isn't unbalancing (it is only a +1), but that kind of frequent buffing reminds me too much of an MMORPG.
One suggestion would be to say that a spellcaster can only have 1 orison/cantrip in effect at any given time. That would fix Virtue and Resistance, at least.
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Simple solution, all Cantrips/Orisons cast at will are cast with all the variables down as if the caster were only a first level caster. In the case of Create water, that means only 2 gallons of water, and only 25 feet away. If the player wishes to cast them at greater potency, allow that player's character to prepare the Cantrip/Orison in a first tier spell slot.
This way, you have balance and choice. The player can repeatedly cast Create Water at will for 2 gallons each time, but not 20 in one round without casting it as that First Tier.
I like this one. Most of the Cantrips do not get any more powerful by level, and this one shouldn't be any exception.
Otherwise, I totally love the idea of at will Cantrips, and would definitely not want to see that mechanic taken away just because of Create Water shenanigans (which, as already pointed out, are hardly relevant in worlds that have Decanters of Endless Water).
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Here's a list of all the 0 level spells I know of in my Spell database:
Acid Dart
...
Minor WardThe most interesting ones of those are:
Caltrops, Launch Bolt, and Launch Item.The Caltrops spells creates caltrops in close range that last 1 round/level.
Launch bolt is a light crossbow that uses bolts. (Combo with a case of bolts and Magic Weapon.)
Launch Item lets you throw oils and the like out to medium range without range increments.
IMarv
[threadjack]Not familiar with some of that aren't compendium or core, could you list your sources, I am interested in a few of those. [/theadjack]
Possible things to do with the Create Water spell:
The water disappears in a few rounds/minutes if it isn't consumed. This wouldn't prevent magical fire brigade, but no huge stores are possible.
The water disapppears as soon as it isn't in contact with living things. Just an idea and it's poorly worded at the moment, but just imagine the cleric who has to distribute water with his own hands to the thirsty... And yeah, the bacteria nad plants are not taken into account and the pee evaporatess :D ... okay it was just an idea, don't take me too seriously.
The caster has to create/enchant a reservoir of water from which the water is drawn. This would allow the DM to easily limit the amount of water the players can get from the spell without otherwise changing it. The casters may share a pool with the others (in a city for example), but I can imagine them being forced to pay for excessive use... Technically the spell is a long tube from reservoir to the tap(caster).
I still don't understand why exactly Create Water is this be all end all game breaking spell. What makes it being at will so good?
I don't understand the overwhemling power of 2 gallons of water per level. It's not like it can be used in any practical means to create a really large volume of water in any small amount of time.
What specific examples make the spell so over powered now?
I think it's more the idea of "Woah, I can make a lot of water!" and not the idea of "Who's honestly going to waste that much time making that much water?"
I think the problem people have with Create Water is that it forces them to acknowledge that D&D wouldn't be medieval fantasy sword and sorcery anymore.
The problem is though, short of a "points of light" style setting, where ONLY the heroes have magical capability, it's silly to look at a campaign like this.
The level of magic involved in 3rd Edition gives us a setting that has Magic replacing much of what we use Technology for these days.
People are afraid there'd be no more desert campaigns because with a neverending supply of water there'd be no desert.
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Let's look at a real world comparison: Las Vegas. In the middle of an arid desert area, but nearly everyone has a pool in their back yard, and people live comfortable normal lives there.
Sure you might not be able to get the same level of sophistication (air conditioning is HUGELY impacting), but Create Water, with the help of constantly tended and nurtured soils and vegetation could create an oasis where there wasn't one before. Why would this not sound like a Druid base camp adventure plot, or main city, in your desert game?
It's not like there isn't any desert left around Las Vegas just because we can put water around there... and it's not like people don't still die of thirst getting lost out in the harsh climes.
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Short of purposeful, constant annihilating forces causing some kind of arrested development among the sentient races... there's no reason to have magic like 3e has and not be at least some kind of strange mix between Renaissance and Industrial setting with a "Magic replaces Technology in any place it can" theme.
If anyone has played the Thief games (by Looking Glass/Eidos), this would seem to be the kind of setting that befits current D&D magic capability.
Running water in one house, and down the street the guard garrison is in a turreted castle structure with torches. Voice recording devices made by the priests, who also cast fireballs to smite the undead coming from the abandoned apocalyptic part of the city. Using a flash grenade against the Mages in their tower fortress that has levels clearly filled with one of each element. Things like this.
Let's look at a real world comparison: Las Vegas. In the middle of an arid desert area, but nearly everyone has a pool in their back yard, and people live comfortable normal lives there.
I like this one.
Indoor multistory plumbing existed more than two thousand years ago. Two oceans were connected in the 1920s. The city of Chicago is built on what used to be a swamp.
People do amazing things without magic. Giving magic an extra little boost really doesn't make things that much easier most of the time. Honestly, I like the idea of an unlimited water font cleric or druid. It gives them that much more importance to the group. Like the man says above, a magically made oasis is a neat plot point and general locale.
Clerics and druids are granted thier spells. They don't simply get them. If a GM needs to have a rationale for clerics in the desert not all making swimming pools for nomads, then simply say their god cannot or does not grant the spell. Desert druids? Nature does not provide for easy water in the desert, because there isn't easy water in the desert.
There isn't easy water in the desert because it would require the cleric in question to put up permanent shop in that desert and continually create the water.
Las Vegas works because they are *continually* supplying it with water. It's Not as simple as to say "if you want a 10,000 gallon oasis, have some clerics cast the spell a few (zillion) times and leave". Water evaporates.
A single cleric for a nomad tribe would be sufficient to keep them happy in water, but it'd hardly change the culture of the nomads. You wouldn't see them planting roots and discovering advanced irrigation techniques.
A desert is a desert because of the *source* of the lack of water. Until that source is solved, no amount of "create water" is going to seriously unbalance the equation.
I would imagine though that a bored cleric could probaly make a pretty penny wandering around a desert selling jugs of water :)
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One way to keep spells / effects like this from messing with an environment you want to use is to say that the environment has already benefitted from this effect.
So, in the case of a setting where I want a desert, I can just state upfront that the area already has Clerics / Druids / etc. creating water and their own mini-oases willy-nilly, and that without that, the place would be like the Sahara. It's only because of magical water-generation that this particular desert even has oases!
Either I can address the issue at the rules level (make Create Water less available / not level based / higher level) or at the setting level (Osirion is naturally bone-dry, and each community has many young acolytes and nuns who are sent to the priesthood to become 'lifegivers,' dedicated adepts who spend their days creating water and otherwise maintaining a fertile cradle of life in an otherwise lifeless environment).
Or a little bit of both.
I prefer assuming that the magic has been a part of the setting for quite some time, and the assumptions of the setting already factor in the presence of such magic. Under that premise, Osirion (or wherever) are deserts *despite* the presence of Create Water (or Decanters of Endless Water), and would be *worse* in the absence of such magic.
There are many other reasons why not much grows in the desert, soil type and nutrients being a major factor after water.
But the main problem fixed by Create Water is that people dying of thirst is just a very rare occurance. Which I'm fine with.
Look at people today in anything but a third world country (and even then, that's the first thing they try and get).
If you think of Magic as replacing technology, then it makes sense. If anything, we can relate to a person living in 3e Magical worlds easier than someone living in the 1300's real world. The level of hygiene (prestigiditation), medicine (cure, regenerate, restoration), and access to food/water (create water, purify food, etc), means the average person in D&D with access to this magic even in a small way would have similar amenemities as ourselves.
I don't have a problem with that.
I've been thinking about this more as I've statted out a few casters, and the more I do the less I like it. It's a really cool idea for some cantrips/orisons and a really crappy one for others.
It's not that the cleric casting guidance 4 times, resistance 4 times and virtue 4 times before every fight is broken. It's just annoying.
But you've no right to blame players for doing it because it's a free resource, and they're (slightly) weaker if they don't.
I wouldn't use this rule unless all 0th-level buffs were simply removed from play (perhaps with some being beefed up and added in as 1st level spells).
I have to agree that watching the party "buff" is about as exciting as trimming my nails.
I have been thinking about a couple solutions though. Given that "everybody buffs" is de rigueur -- have NPC spellcasters do the same. Also allow that there are going to be more Dispel Magic one-shot items available in a campaign where "everybody buffs".
I still think Create Water should be a 1st level spell though.
CJ
It sounds like the biggest hurdle we're facing here isn't the rule, but rather those who abuse the rules. Remember, this is supposed to be all about having fun. If we spend all our time and energy stopping up loop holes, it could stifle game play.
But then again, I've been fortunate to play with reasonable and rational gamers. My players don't abuse the rules. Likewise, if something seems imbalanced, my players tend to be open to house ruling restrictions . . . even at their character's detriment.
I guess that's where the conflict between roleplaying and rollplaying occur.
Must... not... flame....
You can do this, Hydro. Hydro doesn't flame people.No flaming.
I have no need to flame.
There is no flame in me.
I am at peace.
Aoooooooooooom... Aoooooooooooom...
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Launch Item: is a 1st level spell, From Magic of Faerun, not a cantrip. So it's inclusion doesn't apply here.
Launch Item appears in the Spell Compendium as a 0 level spell. Lets you fire off splash weapons (alchemist fire etc.) out to 100'+10'/lvl with no range penalties to attack. Feels like it should be 1st level otherwise I can see magical grenadiers with bandoliers of alchemist Fire/Frost/Spark becoming expensive but devastating combatants.
Spell Compendium or Magic of Faerun, either way... if you want to include it in a Pathfinder game, you are going to need to tweak it to make it fit. So make it a first level spell if you feel making it "at will" is bad.
I don't know if I agree with that (consider what Quickdraw or even a Handy Haversack allows you to do with the same items), but this isn't something Pathfinder needs to worry about. It's something a DM needs to consider when adding these non-core spells in, just like when you pick up a Splatbook and have to consider it's impact on your game.
*Edit*
I just reread the last bit about "devastating opponents". When I look at alchemical items as weapons, 1d6 +1 splash doesn't seem that devastating to me at all... and you'd do more damage with Quickdraw/Handyhaversack than this spell (iteratives vs standard action cast time i believe?).
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I just reread the last bit about "devastating opponents". When I look at alchemical items as weapons, 1d6 +1 splash doesn't seem that devastating to me at all... and you'd do more damage with Quickdraw/Handyhaversack than this spell (iteratives vs standard action cast time i believe?).
An Eberron character I made up had the special attack of 'throw money at people.' He was a Halfling Ranger (thus able to qualify for Craft (alchemy) as a spellcaster) with the Grenadier (PHB2) and Shaped Splash (Races of Eberron) Feats. By 4th level, he had something like a +10 to hit people with thrown items, and he carried a dozen flasks of Alchemist's Fire/Frost/Spark/Acid. He was a terror, and since it was an RPGA game, his 'consumables' came back at the end of a session (granted, he had to pay 5x as much for them...).
It's certainly possible, with the perfect conjunction of rules (RPGA) and setting (Eberron) to make a nasty, nasty 'thrower of fire *on* people' character.
Must... not... flame....
You can do this, Hydro. Hydro doesn't flame people.
No flaming.
I have no need to flame.
There is no flame in me.
I am at peace.
Aoooooooooooom... Aoooooooooooom...
Good man. Have a cookie and a frosty beverage of your choice. :)
It's not that the cleric casting guidance 4 times, resistance 4 times and virtue 4 times before every fight is broken. It's just annoying.
There are obviously ways around what I am about to say (multiple casters in a party being the most obvious one), but all those have a duration of one minute, so by the time you're finishing the last batch, the first is wearing off.
I suppose I would not "blame" someone for doing this, as you say, but given how seldom I find lower-level parties have time to actually prepare for encounters and how few higher-level parties would have need of these, it doesn't really seem to be a combat issue for me. Certainly it has not been abused, or even used much in my group's playtests.
As far as more long-term effects go, I'd have to say I agree with Kaisoku on the Create Water matter.
I think that makes it even more annoying than it would be if those effects just lasted all day (or until used, as it were). He has to decide which ones he is casting first and which ones he is going without, and all for tiny, niggling benefits before he kicks the door in.
As for create water, you missunderstand (assuming that you, Kaisoku and others were quoting my own post from a week or so ago).
It's not that that makes it significantly different from medeival europe, it's that it makes it significantly different from 3.5.
Yea, you can do the 1,200-gallons-per-hour thing in 3.5, but you would have to sink a lot of money into wands to do it; about 4,500 for those 1,200 gallons (for 12 0th-level wands) unless I'm mistaken. Factor in creation times for those wands and this actually becomes quite a feat; in fact, I think at some point the city would just want to commission a few decanters of endless water and be done with it.
In 3.P, every 1st level cleric can currently do that for free, 12 hours a day. Not only that but because they're casting it themselves they gain the full benefit of their caster level- a 10th level cleric could crank out his twelve thousand gallons in six minutes.
This makes post-conversion Golarion a very different place from 3.5 Golarion, at least in severe climates.
The endless urn of water was 3.0 and 3.5 core rules. Turn on and continuous blast of ridiculous amounts of water per round. Permanent, flick of the switch on, fairly cheap item (in the thousands, that's all).
I already posted the exact stats on it earlier in this thread.
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So no, it doesn't change anything from 3e Magic feel. It's always been there. People just had an easier time ignoring that it was there because it wasn't in the spellcasting rules, it was in the magic items section.
Nothing is changing except making magical people more magical overall. Not a big deal.
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As for the alchemist fire/acid flask, etc... it's STILL only 1d6 damage to target and +1 damage to adjacent enemies. Unless there's some hidden feat or ability that increases the damage from that, that's NOT excessive damage. A first level fighter can do better than that.
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As for the alchemist fire/acid flask, etc... it's STILL only 1d6 damage to target and +1 damage to adjacent enemies. Unless there's some hidden feat or ability that increases the damage from that, that's NOT excessive damage. A first level fighter can do better than that.
For a 2nd or 3rd level character to be able to throw 1d6 damage ranged touch attacks out to 120' or 130' without range penalty is powerful. Also alchemist fire deals an additional 1d6 the second round unless the target takes a full round action (and succeeds a DC15 REF save) to put out the flames. So either 2d6 damage or 1d6 and take him out of combat for a round. If the wizard follows up with a flask of oil then add 1d3 for 2 more rounds. When you consider the power of the spells available to the wizard at that level that is pretty good and they can keep it up for as long and gold holds out. Worse if the PC takes Alchemy. Also a nice safe way to deal with undead. Bag full of vials of holy water and the zombie minions are easy to mop up.
Trust me, one alchemist with this power can become a roving terror on the battlefield for as long as her ammunition holds out. We are in Eberron so add Acidic fire (2d4+1d4 the second round), Alchemists Frost and Alchemists Spark (both 1d8) and of course also works with thunder stones and plain old burning lamp oil. Just saying I have seen this get pretty powerful at the table. We house ruled a while back the at will 0-level spells and she latched on to this right away. I am not saying there is anything unbalancing about it but you have to plan for it in adventure design if a player starts using it all the time.
A 2nd or 3rd level ranged combatant can shoot arrows at pretty much that range, and with a higher damage capability (1d8 + Strength from composite + magical bonus).
Toss in Rapid Shot and you get a slightly lower chance to hit, but double the damage listed above (2d8+2 alone outstrips the acid fire flasks, before strength taken into account).
And this is with an item that is permanently enchanted, and with a quiver holding many more shots than a bandolier might. If you decide to bring in the Handy Haversak, then we might as well add magical enhancements to the arrows as well.
A third level Wizard is tossing 2d4 + 2 damage Magic Missiles each round at the same range, and casting it 4 x per day before any money sinked into it either. A wand of 50 charges at 3rd caster level is in the 2k range, same as the Handy Haversack (before filling it with alchemist items).
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Quite frankly, it feels like the alchemist route seems fairly on par when pimped out with the Handy Haversack and the tossing cantrip.
And you pretty much cap out on capability at 3rd level or so. So beyond this peak moment, every other tactic begins to blow past it completely.
I've personally seen this kind of trick in action in the mid levels (~10th or maybe a bit higher if I recall correctly), and it was very underwhelming.
The only really amazing aspect of it was the options it could give, such as holy water against undead, or tanglefoot bags to really mess up the oppositions movement capability.
But it was not devastating in any sense of the word. Considering the money it was eating up, it was possibly devastating on the reserve funds.
I'm just curious then, for those that are making Create Water level 1 (and keeping at-will cantrips/orisons), what is your Houserule for the 'Decanter of Endless Water'?
Write it out of the game? Or nerf it in some way to prevent more than a few rounds per day?
Because I could see any little town being able to afford the 9k to have a never ending 5 gallons per second, fresh water supply. That's 432,000 gallons per day.
That's that olympic sized pool in a day and a half, and unsupervised if needed (command word to stop it, remember?).
This item will need major revision if you think Create Water is "too much" as an at-will spell.
*Edit*
I'm not meaning this in a condescending way. If you change Create Water, you must address this item as well.
You could go the route of Slippers of Spider Climbing, and limit it to 10 minutes per day. That's plenty of combat uses per day (100), and more than enough water for the standard adventuring troupe. And it limits you to 3000 gallons per day at the highest setting.
I'm just curious then, for those that are making Create Water level 1 (and keeping at-will cantrips/orisons), what is your Houserule for the 'Decanter of Endless Water'?
Write it out of the game? Or nerf it in some way to prevent more than a few rounds per day?
Because I could see any little town being able to afford the 9k to have a never ending 5 gallons per second, fresh water supply. That's 432,000 gallons per day.
That's that olympic sized pool in a day and a half, and unsupervised if needed (command word to stop it, remember?).This item will need major revision if you think Create Water is "too much" as an at-will spell.
*Edit*
I'm not meaning this in a condescending way. If you change Create Water, you must address this item as well.You could go the route of Slippers of Spider Climbing, and limit it to 10 minutes per day. That's plenty of combat uses per day (100), and more than enough water for the standard adventuring troupe. And it limits you to 3000 gallons per day at the highest setting.
There is a bit of a difference between a 1st level acolyte being able to do something endlessly, and something that cost 9000 gp and is not going to be created by everyone of a given level unless they take the proper feat.
Also, if someone is concerned about the decanter, it can be found and destroyed. Ask the Zhents when the Shadovar showed up in Anauroch. However, every 1st level devotee of a god that gets divine power will be able to do this.
Well, by easier to destroy, I guess what I mean is that its easier to find a 1st level cleric or druid than to make a new decanter of endless water. I get that most priests are experts or adepts, I'm just saying that 1st level clerics and druids are more common that 9000 gp magic items.
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A 2nd or 3rd level ranged combatant can shoot arrows at pretty much that range, and with a higher damage capability (1d8 + Strength from composite + magical bonus).
Toss in Rapid Shot and you get a slightly lower chance to hit, but double the damage listed above (2d8+2 alone outstrips the acid fire flasks, before strength taken into account).
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A third level Wizard is tossing 2d4 + 2 damage Magic Missiles each round at the same range, and casting it 4 x per day before any money sinked into it either. A wand of 50 charges at 3rd caster level is in the 2k range, same as the Handy Haversack (before filling it with alchemist items).
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Quite frankly, it feels like the alchemist route seems fairly on par when pimped out with the Handy Haversack and the tossing cantrip.
And you pretty much cap out on capability at 3rd level or so. So beyond this peak moment, every other tactic begins to blow past it completely.
I completely agree. I am just saying this ability takes a weaker combatant (Wizard) and gives them a ranged combat ability with fairly good damage potential that doesn't in any way reduce their other abilities. They still have full spell complement. They don't have to burn a feat to use a decent ranged weapon (they only start with simple weapons). It overcomes their generally weaker BAB by ignoring most armor in the target's AC. It generally puts them on par with the ranger for 2 or 3 levels in what they can hit. Add that to their spells and other abilities and it neutralizes a commonly accepted weakness. This way they can take more buffs instead of attack spells and overall significantly improve the overall damage dealing of a party. If the wizard does take long composite bow and lets assume he gets no STR bonus and maybe a +1 DEX bonus the flask of alchemist fire is still 15% more likely to hit an orc at 50' and 25% at 100' due to range penalties.
I am not discouraging this sort of thing, in fact I encouraged it when it happened. It gave the party more firepower and let them go further in a day. In 3.5 it made the first 3 levels of wizard not a deathtrap. What it did do was make me reorganize encounters to compensate. The only imbalance I can see is now in Pathfinder the wizards have more damage dealing abilities at these low levels and they might outperform the GM's expectation. Sure they outgrow it but for those couple of levels it has an odd flavor.
The endless urn of water was 3.0 and 3.5 core rules. Turn on and continuous blast of ridiculous amounts of water per round. Permanent, flick of the switch on, fairly cheap item (in the thousands, that's all).
Is it? Huh, you're right, 9,000 gp. I somehow thought they were a lot more expensive.
The decanter produces as much water as 45 1st level clerics working 8 hours per day, forever. For 9,000 GP each, these are where a major city's water supply is coming from (assuming it doesn't have some nonmagical supply, which would probably be cheaper still).
There is still the middle ground, where a large community is too poor to commission moderate magic items but does have two or three clerics on hand, where infinite orisons will make a big difference. But I'm not sure that's such a big deal anymore.
Is it possible that some characters will try to abuse these minor bonuses...in as much as this qualifies as abuse? Sure. However, the mentality behind such a group seems like the same sort of people who would check livestock prices to see how feasible it would be to march a herd of sheep through a dungeon in front of them in order to set off traps.
Those actions take very little effort and could save a character's life. Think of it as something like a soldier pedantically cleaning and mantaining his guns and equipment. The chances that it will save his life are pretty minor, but its worth the trouble. There is no reason why a character in the game world would not "abuse" these spells: their gods gave them for a reason.
Not doing this just because it annoys the dm and other players would be metagaming. Yea, you heard me.
You can't blame the player for this.
For a 2nd or 3rd level character to be able to throw 1d6 damage ranged touch attacks out to 120' or 130' without range penalty is powerful.
I don't agree in the slightest. But okay.
Because I could see any little town being able to afford the 9k to have a never ending 5 gallons per second, fresh water supply. That's 432,000 gallons per day.
Under-rating the value of a GP in the game world. It's okay, that's a common mistake.
*Edit*
I'm not meaning this in a condescending way. If you change Create Water, you must address this item as well.
No. No, not really.
In any place that is in a place where water is scarce, and needs a lot of it, WILL be a city or larger, and will be able to afford the decanter of endless water. Which means, short of story, plot or contrived situations, they will have it.
Anything lower than a city doesn't need that much water to keep it's inhabitants alive.
In worst case living conditions, we are looking at 3 gallons of liquid per day to eek a life. Let's assume 5 gallons per day per person to accommodate a level of comfortable living (occasional bathing, cleaning things, etc).
Creating a magic item that is Continuous is 2000gp x caster level x spell level. There's no modifiers for instant effect spells. That's 1000gp for a command word/continuous item.
That's 1200 gallons per hour. That's 240 people serviced per hour. That's enough for 5000 people in a day (Large City and lower).
The gold cost of 1000gp is easily covered by anyone 2nd level or higher. So the leader/mayor of the founded city, if he's going to set something up in a place devoid of any readily available water, is likely going to look at getting this item made.
Keep in mind that the "gp limit" of a particular city would be something that a DM uses for when the PCs want to sell or buy items. A cornerstone to survival item such as water supply would not really factor into that, and as long as you have someone who would reasonably be able to afford having this item (2nd level or higher), and is generous enough to allow the city to use it (mayor, local church, etc), then this isn't far fetched.
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And failing that, I still don't see a problem with it if it remains in the control of the Clerics and Druids. What better way to gain parishioners than to give them access to a better life in a harsh environ?
Come to church for your daily water supply, and sit and listen to a sermon. It's a new version of the missionary!
For what its worth, running the numbers:
In order to have a character high enough level to create a decanter of endless water, the town would, according to the 3.5 DMG, have to be a Large town (2001-5000 population).
The town may not have a character of that level, though, but if they do, there are only two potentially that can create this item, as only a druid or a cleric would be high enough level according to the chart to make the item.
Added to this is the fact that if neither the cleric nor the druid in town has taken Craft Wondrous Item, neither of them, no matter what level they are, can create the item.
Now all of this is assuming that a city already exists. For the most part, no one is going to put in the effort to create a city in a region that can't support it given that they would have to shell out that money themselves, find the caster, then convince people to live there.
If they did, that would make for an interesting and unique city in the campaign, but it wouldn't be the norm. On the other hand, larger cities might do something like this to protect against droughts, but when it was cited that the decanter produced enough water for 5000 (they only need about 5000 gallons to survive in a temperate climate) people a day, that may not be the case. The numbers may work in this instance.
But that's only if they only use water to drink. That's also assuming that the environment around them isn't such that it requires more water than the "standard" bare minimum per day. If this is the only water source for the town, its likely that its not in a region that has a lot of water, otherwise it would be a lot cheaper to get it from wells or the river or lake nearby. In a really hot, dry climate they could need up to 15,000 gallons per day, leaving only 13,800 extra per day.
On the other hand, using the same population distribution chart in the DMG, that same druid and cleric, with create water as an at will spell, can produce 172,000 gallons of water each if they took 8 hours a day to rest. That's a lot more than the 28,800 gallons produced by the decanter working all day long. If the druid and the cleric are feeling lazy and only work for about 8 hours, and for every casting they take another few seconds off for the next person to walk up and present a container, their production falls to 43,200 gallons per day each.
Now, a really hard working 1st level cleric or druid, with this as a cantrip, can work 16 hours a day and produce 19,200 gallons, almost as much as the decanter does.
The point is, I guess, that the decanter is something that has to be planned out, takes someone of mid level, and a significant amount of gold. Its not a perfect solution for a main water source for a large city, although you could probably make a nice rest stop and artificial oasis in the desert with them (like the Zhentarim did through Anauroch).
On the other hand, if you have one 1st level cleric in a town, or a 1st level druid, you can nearly match this output with one of them, let alone if you have several first level characters willing to do this. And if this is indeed an emergency situation, while it won't be comfortable, two first level characters could keep the town going through rough times with little effort other than to remain in good standing with their deity and taking time out to pray and such. Two first level characters producing enough water for 5000 people in the desert each day seems like its a bit of a reach.
Keep in mind that the "gp limit" of a particular city would be something that a DM uses for when the PCs want to sell or buy items. A cornerstone to survival item such as water supply would not really factor into that, and as long as you have someone who would reasonably be able to afford having this item (2nd level or higher), and is generous enough to allow the city to use it (mayor, local church, etc), then this isn't far fetched.
This is assuming that an NPC with a listed gp limit has all of that wealth in GP, which is not the case. It represents the value of what they have. Its also assuming that the NPC in question even knows what a Decanter of Endless Water even is, or that its anything other than a myth, and if he's not a spellcaster, he may have no idea about this.
On the other hand, if you have one 1st level cleric in a town, or a 1st level druid, you can nearly match this output with one of them, let alone if you have several first level characters willing to do this. And if this is indeed an emergency situation, while it won't be comfortable, two first level characters could keep the town going through rough times with little effort other than to remain in good standing with their deity and taking time out to pray and such. Two first level characters producing enough water for 5000 people in the desert each day seems like its a bit of a reach.
A single first-level cleric can't nearly match the output of a decanter of endless water.
The decanter produces 30 gallons per round. That's as many as 15 clerics.
It also works 24/7 rather than in 8-hour shifts.
It also lasts forever once it's been made. As I said above, considering that it would take a team of at least 22 1st level clerics to match it (twice as many if they only work 8 hour shifts), it's hard to see the cleric water-force really replacing the decanter.
I can't imagine a place that can devote a team of 45 clerics to a task 365 days a year but can't procure a 9,000 gp magic item.
The only towns who won't have one of these, assuming moderate magic frequency (i.e, there -is- a magical economy), are the ones too poor to afford one or the ones who just don't need that much water (either due to smaller populations or a natural water supply).
These are the regions where clerics spamming create water are really going to make a difference, especially when unexpected droughts strike.
This is probably one of the geekiest conversations ever.
This is probably one of the geekiest conversations ever.
Agreed ;)
And I ran the numbers for the cleric, but didn't double check the figures for the decanter, and ran with the numbers in the previous post. My bad for not checking my facts on my own.
With all the talk about grenadiers I just wonder where the 1st level party gets the money to make the difference significant. Of course, you can craft, but how long it will take you to make one damned Alchemist's Fire (not to mention that my orcs certainly don't carry 6 gp each to cover the costs (I still haven't checked the crafting in Pathfinder yet))? And do they have a laboratory at hand?
I think that if the party manages to hoard and carry enough items then they should be rewarded for their efforts and get a power boost (well, limited one). It fits the general concept of the wizard to be offensively powerful for a while, doesn't it?
Metagaming, to a certain degree, doesn't bother me. I am not a proponent of the way the rules work for PCs being completely divorced from how their world works, but I do think for the ease of all, some exceptions can be made. The GM may run the game, but to a certain point, everyone at the table is responsible for everyone else's piece of mind.
I think we have a sort of fundamental difference of perspective here, and that is certainly all right. Different groups tend to have widely differing play styles, so some things that one considers a game-breaking rules loophole will be a non-issue to others.
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Mmhmm.
Just to be clear, I wouldn't discourage a player from commiting this kind of "metagaming". If a players says "Aww, screw this, let's just go in", I wouldn't raise an eyebrow.
You never force a player to do something that they find unfun. The continuity of the world can bend. But I do feel that when it has to bend then either the system or the dm has failed in his/its job of shepharding the game.
I know we've crossed the agree-to-disagree line, but I wouldn't say that a character would have to be paranoid to use any of these spells right before entering hostile terratory.
A player might have to be paranoid to use them (because for him its just a game, and for him fifteen seconds of work is a real drawback), but a character wouldn't. Presumably, a spellcaster has studied the spells enough to know the difference that they make (and it IS a concrete difference: +1 is the difference between a 20 gp weapon and a 320 gp weapon). To the character, at least, it's a very reasonable precaution. The issues with it are all on the OoC side.
My take would indeed be to take those 0th-level buffs and make them 1st level. More 1st level buffs would be a good thing anyway. A +2 bonus (or, preferably, +4 of a non-stacking type) from guidance, +1/3 levels and a longer duration for resistance (there should be a spell that does that anyway), 1d6 temporary hp for virtue.
I'm not sure what a good 0th level abjuration would be; what's a neet trick that an abjurer should be able to do at-will?
Energy resistance (with a 1-round duration) sounds cool; it would let them walk through fire or the like with repeat casting.