cappadocius |
I also think monks should get a diversity of disabling effects, and class abilities make them a monk schtick as opposed to 'fighters can do it better because they get more feats'. And we can roll things like Quivering Palm into a more general attack mechanic that involves ki point expenditure to force saves for avoiding status conditions.
Mr. Buhlmahn,
I *never* agree with Squirrelloid, but I agree with him completely here.
If a monk is able to inflict status conditions, then he doesn't NEED enchantment bonuses to do more damage. If the monk can effectively set 'em up so someone else knocks 'em down, then he fills a good, helpful niche in ANY party.
Jason Tuttle |
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How about expanding the ki pool and letting the monk use ki to enhance his unarmed strike in various ways for one round, such as spend 1 ki for a +1 enhancement to all attacks as a swift action, spend 2 ki to overcome a specific type of dmg reduction (silver, cold iron, evil, etc.), spend 3 to add holy/unholy dmg and so on. Not saying that the examples I've given are a good ki point cost, just throwing something out to think about.
EDIT: While I was away, it looks as if this has been suggested a time or 2, sorry 'bout that. I still think it's a good idea and wouldn't necessitate new weapons or slots.
Majuba |
Aren't combat manuevers standard actions now? That kinda hoses the old monk strategy of 'flurry of blows disarm'.
Some are, some are not. Disarm, Sunder, and Trip (I believe) are among those that are attack actions.
Also: Maneuvers used against Stunned opponents (such as from Stunning Fist) are automatic successes.
Derringer |
I'm not disagreeing the enhancement bonus helps. I'm saying we all agree, lets stop flogging it and move on.
I'm all for the enhancement bonus, but I think it is worth flogging because beyond that I am not convinced anything is necessary.
Once a monk is on par with a rogue for a successful hit (as well as other enhancements like flaming, vorpal, etc) with his primary attack. Then you need to consider that, for example, a 20th level monk will have three attacks at base +15 compared to the rogues one attack at base +15. The rogue has +10d6 but there is something to be said for the three 2d10 strikes.
I also disagree that Gorgon Fist is lacking. Unless I am reading it wrong, there is no save and it can be done every round. Leaving the opponent with only a standard or move is huge.
Last week my group managed to get a slow spell to work on against a dragon and it made all the difference in the world. Couldn't even fly about and breathe - that is a move and a standard.
No...I could see Gorgon Fist being even over powered if it has no save. Then followed up with Medusa's Wrath.....no this is certainly a great bump for the monk and something I like.
Herald |
Tattoos could also be away of handling enchantment. The player could access the power of their tattoos as a swift action. Should the user become bound (not grappled) they shouldn't be able to activate. Anything that knocks them out or changes thier mental state might turn the powers off. Kind of like a Barbarian loosing rage.
But wraps maybe a better way to go.
Dean Kimes |
Hey there all,
So, I am thinking a lot about the monk as of late. The monk, as I stated before, fills a different role than a fighter. They hit more like a rogue, with a different sort of damage potential. For some reason, and I am wondering why, there seems to be an opinion that the monk does not work, but the rogue, who is based off the same progression, does. The monk has access to some of the same bonuses as a rogue (to hit at any rate), but the monk has quite a bit more defenses (good saves, some immunities, and, in the right build, a better AC).
So, to help me understand the arguments being thrown about here. I am wondering. Where is the flaw with the monk? And, as a secondary question, why are these not the same problems with the rogue?
I have seen a large number of monks played over the past few years, and every one of them has been pretty solid at their role in the party. They are great at harrassing spellcasters (clerics, bards, wizards, and sorcerers) and other, equally classed, combatants (rogues and other monks). They do not stand up as well in a straight up fight with fighters, barbarians, and paladins. But this limitation is more about their niche than their shortcomings.
Once again, I am trying not to come off antagonistic here, but I am not sure I undersand the beef. Help me see the point.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing(As an aside, antagonistic thread titles like this one kinda set me off... which might account for some of my earlier defensiveness. My apologies if things were taken that way.)
Lol, frankly I think the monk works fine. By 9th level flurry of blows has no hit penalty (something a two weapon wielder never gets) so I don't see the whole "flurry of misses" thing at all. Monks have generally been on a par with fighters, they do a little less dmg but they don't have the same weakness fighters do (limited mobility, reliance on wpns, poor saves, few skills).
PeteZero |
As said, that's why to add it to the list of bonus feats at level 14 or 18 - a way to circumvent the BAB requirement. Same holds true for Vital Strike (maybe at level 10 or 14).
Keldarth wrote:As was pointed out earlier, Improved Vital Strike has a requirment of +16BAB, that means no single class monk can ever attain it.PeteZero wrote:I really like the monk and what's been done to it, just a suggestion for the bonus feat for monks to add Vital Strike at 10th or 14th level to the list and improved Vital Strike at 14th or 18th level. Gives a nice extra option to the class.Well, there's nothing that stop monks of selecting those feats when they meet the prerequisites, and indeed they are excellent for upgrading those flurry of blows that so many times are (imho) misjudged as "miss more often".
Squirrelloid |
Lol, frankly I think the monk works fine. By 9th level flurry of blows has no hit penalty (something a two weapon wielder never gets) so I don't see the whole "flurry of misses" thing at all. Monks have generally been on a par with fighters, they do a little less dmg but they don't have the same weakness fighters do (limited mobility, reliance on wpns, poor saves, few skills).
At 20th:
TWF Fighter BAB +20, penalty from TWF makes it an effective +18
Monk 20 BAB +15
+3 difference
# attacks
Fighter gets +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
Monk gets +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
Now, the fighter set 3 feats on fire to do that, but the monk basically set his entire class on fire...
And when you consider that TWFing is strictly worse than THF for damage output unless you can get a serious damage bonus per attack (other than str, which scales properly to be net zero for THF vs. TWF assuming all hits), the monk starts looking rather poor as a melee combatant.
Then you consider the fighter can use the Combat feat to swap one weapon between both hands, and can enchant his weapon a lot cheaper than the monk his fists, for an additional up to +5 to-hit disparity (and certainly a disparity - if not in to-hit then in other gear). The fighter also has an AC advantage - yes, you heard that right, an AC advantage. In addition to getting his +8 armor bonus from mithril platemail on the cheap (the monk has to shell out 64k for the same armor bonus), the fighter gets +4 from class features and +5 enhancement to armor (which the monk can't get), and can use up to 7 points of dex (which he won't even have in all likelihood). The monk has 5+wis mod to compete with the 9 point advantage the fighter is getting, and he also has to trade off wis with all of dex/con/str, whereas the fighter really need worry about dex/con/str, giving him on average a higher dex score and higher stats he cares about.
And the fighter isn't even considered a powerful class.
Then the monk has an anemic 2d10 hit which is only 11 average. Bonuses to damage are more important than base dice at these levels, and the fighter has *more strength* and *more enhancement bonus*, not to mention enchantments on his weapon like *Mage Bane* (which applies to 85%+ of monsters CR 13 and up).
The monk is not a frontline combatant. He is not a DPS machine. He should not be treated as one unless we give him an offensive ability that makes him one.
lynora |
Tattoos could also be away of handling enchantment. The player could access the power of their tattoos as a swift action. Should the user become bound (not grappled) they shouldn't be able to activate. Anything that knocks them out or changes thier mental state might turn the powers off. Kind of like a Barbarian loosing rage.
But wraps maybe a better way to go.
Yeah, I suggested tattoos too, but I think it got lost in the shuffle. But I'm not sure what if any body slot they would take up. And out of curiosity why do you think they shouldn't be usable when the monk is grappled?
And I'm not sure that something permanently affixed to the body would really be a good idea. It sounds cool, but I get the nagging feeling there's something there I'm overlooking.BM |
Squirrelloid wrote:
I'm not disagreeing the enhancement bonus helps. I'm saying we all agree, lets stop flogging it and move on.
I'm all for the enhancement bonus, but I think it is worth flogging because beyond that I am not convinced anything is necessary.
Once a monk is on par with a rogue for a successful hit (as well as other enhancements like flaming, vorpal, etc) with his primary attack. Then you need to consider that, for example, a 20th level monk will have three attacks at base +15 compared to the rogues one attack at base +15. The rogue has +10d6 but there is something to be said for the three 2d10 strikes.
I also disagree that Gorgon Fist is lacking. Unless I am reading it wrong, there is no save and it can be done every round. Leaving the opponent with only a standard or move is huge.
Last week my group managed to get a slow spell to work on against a dragon and it made all the difference in the world. Couldn't even fly about and breathe - that is a move and a standard.
No...I could see Gorgon Fist being even over powered if it has no save. Then followed up with Medusa's Wrath.....no this is certainly a great bump for the monk and something I like.
The monk need the enchantment bonus on to hit/Attack rolls PERIOD.
To say otherwise is to ignore Jason's own math.
Look at Monster Statistics by CR, page 124. According to it, a monster at CR 20 should on average, have a AC of 38. Subtracting the Monk's BAB of 15, you get 23 left. As a rule, to say that you have a decent chance of hitting, you should need a 10 to hit on your attack rolls. To do that, a monk must get a +13 to hit. There is no way for a monk to get the mod up to a 13 without breaking into a enchantment bonus to hit. And even then, that with the monk's BEST shot.
And Flurry of Blows doesn't compete with sneak attack in any way. Flurry of Blows is a full attack, where sneak attack can be used with any attack. Even then the monks flurry of blows matches a single sneak attack much less the rogue's 30d6 sneak attack dice with a full attack option. Flurry of blows just doesn't cut it by itself.
And the problem with Gorgon's Fist is that Medusa's Wraith is needs a full attack. The staggered status allows the enemy to move, and foil the setup for Medusa's Wraith.
Weylin Stormcrowe 798 |
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, have you considered simply adding gauntlets and spiked gauntlets as monk weapons? Or even simply adding magical tattoos to fill this niche. I thought the tattoos of the tattooed monk and ki-do abilities from ROkugan were interesting approach to this problem.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Jadeite |
And Flurry of Blows doesn't compete with sneak attack in any way. Flurry of Blows is a full attack, where sneak attack can be used with any attack. Even then the monks flurry of...
A monk taking improved natural attack (unarmed strike) and vital strike will deal 8d8 with each of his flurry attacks at the cost of his lowest attack. His attacks will be at +15/+15/+15/+10 and he will also have the option of burning a point of ki to get even more attacks. Should he somehow manage to obtain improved vital strike, he will deal 12d8 at the cost of his two lowest attack. So, with a little bonus on hitting people, a high level monk could be quite deadly.
Squirrelloid |
BM wrote:A monk taking improved natural attack (unarmed strike) and vital strike will deal 8d8 with each of his flurry attacks at the cost of his lowest attack. His attacks will be at +15/+15/+15/+10 and he will also have the option of burning a point of ki to get even more attacks. Should he somehow manage to obtain improved vital strike, he will deal 12d8 at the cost of his two lowest attack. So, with a little bonus on hitting people, a high level monk could be quite deadly.And Flurry of Blows doesn't compete with sneak attack in any way. Flurry of Blows is a full attack, where sneak attack can be used with any attack. Even then the monks flurry of...
For the sake of argument, lets consider an Improved Vitality monk at 20th level that's optimized vs. a level 20 rogue that's optimized.
Rogue
Halfling TWF tree potion thrower with some way to always catch his target flat-footed (wand of greater invisibility, ring of blinking, whatever). Dexterity 18->20 + 5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 36. +1 to hit from size. Total AB: +15+13+1 = +29
Full Attack: +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17 *ranged touch attack*
Each does 11d6 elemental damage this round, and 11d6 elemental damage the following round unless the monster dunks his head in a barrel. We'll just consider the first round, where it does 38.5 average damage per hit.
Lets face it, a +17 touch attack *always hits* against most monsters, barring 1s.
.95*38.5*6 = 219.45
Monk
BAB +15, we'll assume you set 160k gp on fire for +5 enhancement. You have to split your stats between Wis/Str/Dex/Con, probably in that order, so your str is likely 14 to start. You put your level pumps into wisdom. So +4 inherent +6 enhancement is looking reasonable. 24 str. +15+5+7 = +27 to hit, except you need to hit AC 38.
Full Attack: +27/+27/+27/+22/+17. You set your lowest two attacks on fire for Improved Vital Strike, you burn a ki for another attack.
average of 12d8+12 is 66.
4*.5*66 = 132. Yeah, approximately half the damage the rogue is dealing in round 1.
Here's the kicker - the rogue really can do it all day long, you need to burn (rather limited) ki. The rogue also has better defenses than you (such as a 50% miss chance), more skills than you, and more class features that are still doing something for him at 20th level than you. Seriously, you just got feather fall and he could burn a class feature to get it at level 4. And by burn i really do mean set on fire.
Yeah, we can add more feats to this - on both sides. The rogue can use rapid shot for another attack pretty trivially, for example. And we haven't even counted the damage that potion death is going to deal next turn.
Improved Vital Strike is not enough to make you a good DPS machine. And 108 damage is marginally noticed at 20th level. (Of course, the Wizard just dropped a 200 damage former SoD on every creature in the room, just to make the monk feel really small in the pants, and that's one of his weaker options...)
BM |
Squirrelloid has it right, but even in a less optimized form, a monk will be have 3 attacks that do 12d8. Assuming all hit, the will do on average, 54 damage+damage mod per hit for 162+(damage mod*3).
A standard TWF rogue using more conventional means (see:Short Swords) will have 6 attacks that do weapon damage+damage mod+10d6 sneak attack damage. Assuming 4 of them hit, and do average damage they will do 14 weapon damage+144 sneak attack damage+(damage mod from primary*2)+(damage mod from off hand*2). The extra damage from the fourth hit with a +5 short sword will push the very small margin away from the monk to the rogue.
James Griffin 877 |
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
You could base the thing on Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species. I use them whenever they're allowed for monks and wild-shape intense druids. As long as the player has to sacrifice a body slot of equal power, or whatever, it balances out.
I'd also like to say that there has just been waaay to much griping in this thread. It's almost embarrassing to read. Thank you Jason for being nice about it.
I think a lot of the complaining comes from a deep seated anger on the part of power gamers who find it difficult to cheese their monks. And for those people, if you do anything less than apply Vow of Poverty at base, then they'll still complain it's not a fighter or barbarian by a different name.
Most of the problems here are just differences in paradigm and flavor, nothing to do with mechanics. (I've been upset with wild-shape in this system the whole time, but whatever. It's more about my views of the ability, nothing about the new mechanic being untrue to concept.)
Later, guys!
Reckless |
Each does 11d6 elemental damage this round, and 11d6 elemental damage the following round unless the monster dunks his head in a barrel.
Where do people get this idea that it does "11d6 on the following round"?
edit: and, what exactly is "it"? Alchemist's Fire?
Derringer |
The monk need the enchantment bonus on to hit/Attack rolls PERIOD.
To say otherwise is to ignore Jason's own math.
Look at Monster Statistics by CR, page 124. According to it, a monster at CR 20 should on average, have a AC of 38. Subtracting the Monk's BAB of 15, you get 23 left. As a rule, to say that you have a decent chance of hitting, you should need a 10 to hit on your attack rolls. To do that, a monk must get a +13 to hit. There is no way for a monk to get the mod up to a 13 without breaking into a enchantment bonus to hit. And even then, that with the monk's BEST shot.
And Flurry of Blows doesn't compete with sneak attack in any way. Flurry of Blows is a full attack, where sneak attack can be used with any attack. Even then the monks flurry of...
As you quoted me, I am completely in agreement that the monk should have a competitive method of getting his attacks enchanted with pluses to hit as well as other enhancements. I have even said he should have the same for his AC...the same way the fighter has a +2 chainshirt of fortification the monk should get +2AC with fortification.
Comparing to sneak attack was maybe a mistake....I don't need my monk to do as much damage as a rogue. I just need him to do enough to be interesting and still be a "monk" in the storyline. I think he does that now.
And yes...the opponent can slip away from the Medusa Wrath by running like a scared puppy from my useless monk (not to mention withdraw is a full round action which they can't do so the monk gets an AoO). We play with a group and if the monk can take away an opponents full attack action on a regular basis that alone makes him useful - and it fits so nicely with the flavor of the class.
Finally, I must point out - I am more concerned about the additional enhancements to weapons and armor that others get and monks don't than comparing just the "I need the extra +5 to hit so I can hit anything" because in my experience a greater magic weapon or greater magic fang is standard operating procedure when you have a monk in the party. It is a team effort and the party casters are more than happy to supply these simple LONG duration spells. Yes, I would rather have them not need that work around...but it does the job.
Khalarak |
Thats a very good place to start. Part of the problem was that Monks never stood a chance of hitting anything due the lack of a enchantment bonus.
I also agree that boosting some of the monks disabling attacks. Stunning Fist could use a boost to it DC,(15+1/2char level+Wis mod or 10+1/2 char level+2xWis Mod works, if a little overpower at early levels), and the Gorgon's Fist combat feat needs inflict the Dazed status, not Staggered.(Staggered allows the target to move away, making the Medusa's Wrath combat feat worthless.)
I think 'worthless' is a bit strong. If the target moves, he's given up his chance to hurt the party this turn; unless he's unusually fast, the rest of the party has that much more time to pound on him or his allies unmolested. And if he chooses to attack rather than move away, then the monk can beat the crap out of him with Medusa's Wrath. If he *did* move, the monk can just catch him and Gorgon's Fist him again, thus perpetuating aforementioned conditions. Win/win/win. This is assuming, of course, the monk can hit, as discussed.
The monk isn't by himself; actions are the single most valuable thing a character can have in this system, and denying your enemy an action is correspondingly powerful. If it hits, Gorgon's Fist turns any bruiser into a one-shot-per-round wonder, and a caster into either a fleeing coward or a sitting duck, all while your own allies have the chance to wail away like mad. Medusa's Wrath is just icing, IMO. ;)
As to other concerns in this thread, I think a handwrap or a headband would be fine for enchanting the monk's unarmed strike (it doesn't have to be the limb he strikes with per se, it just enhances his entire body into a more effective weapon, but is powered by Ki, so most monsters couldn't use it). The headband would have the interesting option of having to decide between defense (a wisdom headband) or offense.
A monk doesn't really have that low damage, either; just with Improved Natural Attack, a level 20 monk's damage is 4d8 base per hit, and with Superior Unarmed Strike (Book of Nine Swords) and magic items it goes even higher. The only issue I see with the monk is his attack bonus, which is solved fairly easily with a fixed item. Also, a feat to allow the addition of Wisdom to hit (Action Before Thought) or something might allow the monk to concentrate his items into Wisdom much as a rogue can focus on Dexterity.
Just my 2 cents.
Eric Tillemans |
Halfling TWF tree potion...
Using a splash weapon to deal sneak attack damage is questionable in my book. I really don't know if it's spelled out or not anywhere, but there's no way that's happening in a game I DM. How about a more conventional comparison?
Also, don't forget Blink no longer denies a target it's dexterity under Pathfinder rules.
Squirrelloid |
Yeah squirrelloid where do you get alchemist's fire doing 11d6 damage the next round? Are you adding the sneak attack damage a second time?
That would be a typo for 1d6 and me typing fast. Yeah, the extra elemental damage isn't as exciting, but its still 1d6/attack (for 12d6 total per attack), which is pretty good in my book for a ranged touch attack as an attack action. If you count the following rounds damage that's another almost 20 damage from the rogue's full attack.
On Blink: As long as they suffer a 50% miss chance for concealment (which they do), blink is providing you total concealment and thus you deny them their dexterity bonus when you strike from it. It merely states you don't get the bonus for being invisible (which you aren't), that doesn't effect the basic game rules at all. Also note any form of invisibility still works, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
You may sneak attack with *any* attack when your opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC. That includes potion throwing or any other attack form. It meets the rules prima facia. There is no questionable interpretation there.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik |
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:Yeah squirrelloid where do you get alchemist's fire doing 11d6 damage the next round? Are you adding the sneak attack damage a second time?That would be a typo for 1d6 and me typing fast. Yeah, the extra elemental damage isn't as exciting, but its still 1d6/attack (for 12d6 total per attack), which is pretty good in my book for a ranged touch attack as an attack action. If you count the following rounds damage that's another almost 20 damage from the rogue's full attack.
On Blink: As long as they suffer a 50% miss chance for concealment (which they do), blink is providing you total concealment and thus you deny them their dexterity bonus when you strike from it. It merely states you don't get the bonus for being invisible (which you aren't), that doesn't effect the basic game rules at all. Also note any form of invisibility still works, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
You may sneak attack with *any* attack when your opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC. That includes potion throwing or any other attack form. It meets the rules prima facia. There is no questionable interpretation there.
Bah! those pesky typos!!! *kicks the typO square in the O!
Jadeite |
On Blink: As long as they suffer a 50% miss chance for concealment (which they do), blink is providing you total concealment and thus you deny them their dexterity bonus when you strike from it. It merely states you don't get the bonus for being invisible (which you aren't), that doesn't effect the basic game rules at all. Also note any form of invisibility still works, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.You may sneak attack with *any* attack when your opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC. That includes potion throwing or any other attack form. It meets the rules prima facia. There is no questionable interpretation there.
The 50% miss chance for concealment from blink is debatable. Also, should you count it as such you should note that this would make you unable to sneak because you also suffer a 20% miss chance.
Also, throwing acid flasks en masse is stupid and an excellent reason to make either sneak attacks or the throwing of splash weapons a standard action.Freesword |
The lack of magical enhancements to natural attacks (or prohibitive cost) is the only real problem I've ever seen with monks besides their horrible case of multiple stat dependency. If they are seen as weak or sub-par it is more due to MSD. This is probably worse in point buy games than games with rolled stats as players who fail to roll multiple high stats usually play something other than a monk. MSD issues aside the monk does just fine in my experience and does work best in a group. There is nothing wrong with this.
I personally like the handwraps idea. Gauntlets have their own damage amount which supersedes the monk's unarmed strike, and every melee weapon the monk is proficient with does 1d6 damage or less. Tattoos would also be a viable option, and I would not be opposed to both being available.
Squirrelloid |
Squirrelloid wrote:
On Blink: As long as they suffer a 50% miss chance for concealment (which they do), blink is providing you total concealment and thus you deny them their dexterity bonus when you strike from it. It merely states you don't get the bonus for being invisible (which you aren't), that doesn't effect the basic game rules at all. Also note any form of invisibility still works, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.You may sneak attack with *any* attack when your opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC. That includes potion throwing or any other attack form. It meets the rules prima facia. There is no questionable interpretation there.
The 50% miss chance for concealment from blink is debatable. Also, should you count it as such you should note that this would make you unable to sneak because you also suffer a 20% miss chance.
Also, throwing acid flasks en masse is stupid and an excellent reason to make either sneak attacks or the throwing of splash weapons a standard action.
By 20th level I think Improved Blink is safe to assume, don't you. And as previously said, Greater Invisibility, Silent Image for an illusory wall (something the rogue can achieve with class features!)
notshown |
The monk is not a frontline combatant. He is not a DPS machine. He should not be treated as one unless we give him an offensive ability that makes him one.
The monk isn't by himself; actions are the single most valuable thing a character can have in this system, and denying your enemy an action is correspondingly powerful.
Thank you and thank you. Monks don't have to (nor should they necessarily) be equal to fighters in combat; if you want to play a damage-hashing machine, play a fighter. Because any PC monk will be a part of a diverse team (probably), they do not have to be great, or even good, at everything. I'm playing a swashbuckler/fighter/dervish that isn't the best at hitting or dealing damage, but with combat expertise, he puts up a huge AC, soaking up attack actions that would otherwise damage other party members. Convert that character to a monk, and you get superior saving throws along with evasion; now he's able to make spellcasters waste spells on him, too. This frees up others to position themselves, focus on other enemies, apply healing, or do whatever it is they're good at doing.
I think everyone has a concept of what a monk "should" be, but we're ignoring what "could" be. Pathfinder rules gives everyone expanded access to feats, so use those feats (and multiclassing, and magic items) to fill in your particular details.
IMO, the monk should be ascetic and introspective, so his strengths should come from his Wisdom and/or Charisma (I would like to see less reliance on magic items, but the system heavily relies on magic for balance, so I can get over that). I love the idea of applying the unarmed strike bonuses to farm tools and implements (i.e. simple weapons). I think monks should gain ki pool (adamantine) before ki pool (lawful) because we see (IRL) martial artists of various skill levels smashing planks, bricks, and blocks, whereas a lawful strike would seem to be attainable only at higher levels of enlightenment. I'm also intrigued by the idea of different disciplines that are chosen at a low level that could further define a monk's role (dragon style favors a balanced approach to attack and defense, tiger style favors strong offensive maneuvers, crane style favors defense and resistance, etc).
~ notshown
P.S. To anyone with real martial arts training and knowledge, please do not take offense at my childish naming convention. I'm just throwing stuff out there.
Virgil RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
Xaaon of Xen'Drik |
IMO, the monk should be ascetic and introspective, so his strengths should come from his Wisdom and/or Charisma (I would like to see less reliance on magic items, but the system heavily relies on magic for balance, so I can get over that). I love the idea of applying the unarmed strike bonuses to farm tools and implements (i.e. simple weapons). I think monks should gain ki pool (adamantine) before ki pool (lawful) because we see (IRL) martial artists of various skill levels smashing planks, bricks, and blocks, whereas a lawful strike would seem to be attainable only at higher levels of...
These are the kind of ideas and discussion we need in the Monk [THINK TANK]
David Jackson 60 |
Well, first off setting the monk to an example of a dex-maxed potion-thrower rogue for comparison and contrast isn't much use for looking at a core class build (no offense to squirreloid meant).
The point of letting a character have the possibility to go in a specific direction with a character isn't lost though.
For monks, I would say that focus could be somewhat CMB tricks. They are new and would give the monk something new and fun along with being effective. My first suggestion was to let the monk somehow enact his flurry of blows and still keep his mobility on occasion but you would have to change the fundamentals of the class a bit more than is probably wanted for that...flurry of blows would have to be a per-day ability.
Now that could also be done via KI-points...lets say the monk could use that extra 20' of movement AFTER a full round attack. This would give the monk the option to unload his best attack and then move...this would make him massively more effective in combat.
Also, as I stated before, the idea of letting those Ki-points also boost CMB (perhaps a +2 or +3 bonus for using a ki point) would put the MAD monk on the same level as the frontline fighters or give a focused monk a much better ability to do the CMB tricks. The monk already has some advantages with the CMB tricks. He can stun, which if successful, gives him +4 to his CMB checks vs an opponent. He also can steal weapons without the -4 penalty for being unarmed.
David Jackson 60 |
There is also another problem with CMB and the monk.
Given the fact the monk at least has current potential to be good at CMB, we don't know all about CMB that we should.
I still don't know if there will be a penalty applied to CMB if a character is caught flatfooted. This is fairly significant given the monk has the Stealth skill as a class skill and has access in his bonus feats to things like improved Feint, Improved trip, and mobility.
Does being prone effect anything? What about being sickened or nausiated? Being blind gives you a -4 to str based skill checks...does it also effect CMB in this manner? If a character has the agile maneuvers feat, does being caught flatfooted effect his CMB?
There are tons of questions I have about CMB... I actually started a thread and some small suggestions in the NEW RULES section. I wanted to add them here because now that the monk has a higher ability to use the CMB tricks, this greatly effects how powerful the Monk is.
Gurubabaramalamaswami |
There is also another problem with CMB and the monk.
Given the fact the monk at least has current potential to be good at CMB, we don't know all about CMB that we should.
I still don't know if there will be a penalty applied to CMB if a character is caught flatfooted. This is fairly significant given the monk has the Stealth skill as a class skill and has access in his bonus feats to things like improved Feint, Improved trip, and mobility.
Does being prone effect anything? What about being sickened or nausiated? Being blind gives you a -4 to str based skill checks...does it also effect CMB in this manner? If a character has the agile maneuvers feat, does being caught flatfooted effect his CMB?
There are tons of questions I have about CMB... I actually started a thread and some small suggestions in the NEW RULES section. I wanted to add them here because now that the monk has a higher ability to use the CMB tricks, this greatly effects how powerful the Monk is.
All super excellent questions and points. This guru awaits the Paizo gurus' response. Teach us thy RPG wisdom O Great Ones!
Quijenoth |
comparing a monks flurry to a two weapon fighter isn't really correct considering a monk can also use two weapon fighting with his flurry...
20 monk BAB
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
20 monk BAB (with greater two weapon fighting feat and duel weilding sai)
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3, plus +13/+8/+3 offhand attacks (half str to damage)
a staggering 8 attacks per round!
If you wheren't aware of this check the D&D FAQ for proof.
I'd be interested to know how to handle the weapon swap feat with this.
Pathos |
comparing a monks flurry to a two weapon fighter isn't really correct considering a monk can also use two weapon fighting with his flurry...
20 monk BAB
+15/+15/+15/+10/+520 monk BAB (with greater two weapon fighting feat and duel weilding sai)
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3, plus +13/+8/+3 offhand attacks (half str to damage)
a staggering 8 attacks per round!If you wheren't aware of this check the D&D FAQ for proof.
I'd be interested to know how to handle the weapon swap feat with this.
1) Don't forget the added attack he can gain from expending a Ki point, from his pool.
2) His Flurried attacks at 20th lvl do not suffer the -2 penalty. So it should be +15/+15/+15/+15+10/+5 (includes the Ki Strike bonus attack), plus +13/+8/+3 off-handed attacks. Giving us a potential 9 attacks.Now, assuming the monk possess the combat feat Double Slice, he can gain an additional +2 on attack rolls with one of his light weapons used from Two-Weapon Fighting (applied to his off-handed weapon to improve ability to hit? [+15/+10/+5]).
One thing that MAY be argued in this scenario, is since he is "flurrying" he may still gain his full strength damage on his off-handed attacks with the two-weapon fighting.
Taking this one step further... If the idea of allowing the monk to appply his unarmed damage towards "monk weapons", as has been suggested and Jason seems to be entertaining... that could give us a potential of 18d10 (9 x 2d10) points of damage raining down on some hapless soul. This, of course, doesn't take into account any crits being landed.
So, yeah, it seems he could do fairly well going "Bruce Lee" on someones face. :oP
GeraintElberion |
Earlier someone suggested that Withdraw provokes attacks of opportunity. Withdrawing doesn't provoke AoO from your current opponent unless they have reach, or you leave more than one of their threatened squares.
I would really like to see 3.Pathfinder kill off the potion thrower by adjusting Quick Draw. All they have to do is ajudicate clearly that a vial is not a weapon and that the feat does not cover improvised weapons.
WotC's Nightmare |
I agree. We need to close the "I can throw 6 potions a round for sneak attack damage on each flask" loophole. It's unrealistic, cheesy, and unbalanced. Of course I'd also like to see evasion be an immediate action that causes you to move out of the area of effect. These are two overly gamist, cheesy things that have really started to bug me about 3.5. One of the things that I dislike about 4E, is that it goes too far into gamist territory. Any notion of reality is thrown out of the window in the name of game balance and the game designer's definition of "fun". Let's get rid of some of the overly gamist debris in 3.5
Snorter |
I'd also like to see evasion be an immediate action that causes you to move out of the area of effect.
Yes; I used to love products like 'Grimtooth's Traps', which were full of fiendish contraptions, and some deceptively simple ideas, such as threatening the PCs with an obvious (possibly false) danger, which causes them to leap to 'safety' into a much worse fate.
With Evasion, and Reflex saves in general, there is no 'leap to safety', thus, these scenarios make no sense in-game.
LazarX |
I do see perhaps a bit of a nerf in tying the monk's flurry ability to the ki pool. In this game if he flurries every fight, he's going to exhaust that ki pool very quickly and not have any juice for the other tricks that draw upon it.
Strike out that statement, I've re-read the section and I've clearly made an error here. The Ki-Pool is not the fuel for the flurry ability as flurries don't need ki to operate. Ki however can further BOOST the flurry ability by adding another attack at the highest bonus. I'm just going to go hang my head in shame for at least five minutes. :)
Pathos |
LazarX wrote:Strike out that statement, I've re-read the section and I've clearly made an error here. The Ki-Pool is not the fuel for the flurry ability as flurries don't need ki to operate. Ki however can further BOOST the flurry ability by adding another attack at the highest bonus. I'm just going to go hang my head in shame for at least five minutes. :)I do see perhaps a bit of a nerf in tying the monk's flurry ability to the ki pool. In this game if he flurries every fight, he's going to exhaust that ki pool very quickly and not have any juice for the other tricks that draw upon it.
Gets the cold compresses ready for LazarX
The Italian |
In my opinion the Monk is a Wis base character, they are a "Zen" machine. I propose these solutions to the Monk:
1st Level"Zen Insight: A Monk can use his Wis modifier in place of Str to determine bonuses to hit."
6th level Zen Mastery: A Monk's superior knowledge and control of his body allows him to add 1/2 his Wis modifier as an enhancement bonus to his attack and damage rolls, up to a maximum of +5(this eliminates the need for gauntlets, ki straps, amulets of mighty fists etc., only if u wish to add elemental damage. Given that lvl 6th Monk will probably have a Wis of no more than 21(PC characters i am thinking) the enhancement will only be +2 to hit and dam, and you would have to have a 30 Wis to make it +5.
I am also with the bandwagon of Monks should be a debuffing harrier.
I propose that a Monk should have to use his Ki pool as an immediate/swift action when he lands a successful strike to have any one of these debuffs occur:
Blindness: a Monk on a successful attack can use 1 Ki point to cause blindness to occur in an opponent that lasts 1d4+1 round if the opponent does not succeed at a REF save 10+1/2 monk level+wis mod(think Muay Thai elbow strike acroos the bridge of someones eyes,causing blood to bleed into them)
Debilatating Blow:on a successful strike, a Monk can use 2 Ki point to cause the opponent to temp lose 2 Dex for 1d4+1 rounds. The Dex ability damage can be increased by one for every Ki point the Monks uses on the strike.
Hamper movement: On a succesful strike, a Monk can use 1 Ki point to reduce the speed of an opponent by 1/2 for 1d4+1 round if the opponent fails a REF save vs 10+1/2 Monk levels+Wis mod(think Muay THai low kicks to the shin of inner thigh)
Improved Stunning Blow: A monk can increase the duration of a stunning blow by adding Ki points on a 1 point per additional round of stun.
Also, a Monk should have Ki points equal to his Monk level plus his Wis mod.
This wont make the Monk the frontline fighter, but it will make him less MAD dependant, and his role will make him a staple of alot of parties, setting up opponents for the others to take down.
Just my .02
magnuskn |
If we are to assume that both the Monk and the Rogue have taken some feats to maximise their performance, we can safely assume the following for the Monk: He´ll take Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike.
While Superior Unarmed Strike just makes him max out his Unarmed Strike damage sooner, Improved Natural Attack heightens his Unarmed Strike Damage to 4d8 as soon as 16th level. There are several ways to twink out even more dice, but let´s assume that is as good as it is going to get.
The damage model doesn´t change dramatically, but somewhat more in the Monks favor. If his attack bonus can somehow be heightened to something approaching competitive levels, he´ll be able to inflict sufficient damage to stay on par with Rangers or Fighters.
As for the Rogue, I´d take Vexing Flanker and try to use a Harmony enchantment ( from the Arms & Equipment guide ) to get a total +6 bonus from flanking, which pretty much eradicates his disadvantage in attack bonus. As he essentially has to flank to get his sneak damage full attack, this feat and enchantment are highly beneficial to him.
Admittedly, I´d rather get the Monk away from his later role as a mystic and more towards a kung-fu master, but as backwards compatibility is an issue, I fear that won´t be possible. Maybe we could add a pure martial artist class somewhere along the way?
On another point, the problem with the Monk as a skirmisher is that his best combat ability ( Flurry of Blows ) becomes useless for such a situation. The best solution I have come up with would be to give him a version of the Dervish Dance of the Dervish PrC from Complete Warrior, with a "Perform: Kata" requirement, instead of "Perform: Dance".
Quijenoth |
I would really like to see 3.Pathfinder kill off the potion thrower by adjusting Quick Draw. All they have to do is ajudicate clearly that a vial is not a weapon and that the feat does not cover improvised weapons.
I'd never heard of the potion thrower before this thread TBH and it kind of makes me chuckle to imagine how this would work on a real world basis. images of Arnie in commando throwing potions instead of grenades all over the battlefield spring to mind :)
However, if I was DMing something like this I would not allow sneak attack damage with a thrown splash weapon on two grounds; 1) the attack is a touch attack and does not actually puncture the opponents defences, even if the person is flat-footed, sneak attack damage would not apply since your ignoring their flat-footed AC in favour of their touch AC. and 2) the attack is an indirect line of fire that needs a solid surface to break on. even if you hit a person in the eye with a splash weapon the chances are it wont break so your still going to have to aim for a surface on the target that can break the vial.
I have first hand experiences with number 2) A friend of mines dad used to own a soft-top jeep and we where riding in the back when someone threw a raw egg into the back of the jeep, it hit my friend squarely on his cheek and didn't break! We never caught the culprits but after some cursing we saw the funny side and went home and had scrambled eggs :)
regarding quick draw (and drawing a weapon in general) I also rule it only works on weapons drawn from specific holsters, bandoleers, and quivers. you cannot quick draw from a backpack or pouch (this would include bags of holding). by that definition a quick drawn potion is going to be limited to the capacity of a potion bandoleer.
Edit: I just checked over the SRD and it states that "preparing to throw a splash weapon" is a full round action, while the rules compendium lists only a similar action noted as "prepare oil and fuse" as a full round action.
If I'm missing something in the rules that allows this potion thrower broken mechanic please enlighten me.
Blayde MacRonan |
As I've stated before, the monk is without a doubt my favorite class. So Alpha 3 was being awaited with much anticipation on my end. Jason, as far as I'm concerned, you did not disappoint with this version. I love the ki pool. I love the bonus feat layout. And I especially love the maneuver training ability. With that one class feature, my own DMPC (fighter 2/Monk 6/J'sevath 5 whose main psi-strike weapon is a quarterstaff made of telekinetic force) has become a very dangerous individual, as he makes use of trips/throws to harry the enemy on a regular basis. Before, his CMB was +15 (this factors in a Dex of 23, and his use of the Agile Maneuvers feat, before taking into account the extra +2 from the Improved Trip feat). With Maneuver Training that +15 becomes a +17, which in turn becomes a +19 when performing trips/throws. This makes it just a little easier to perform this type of maneuver on Large foes ('...size is of no consequence to the enlightened mind.') All of this, in combination with the Knock-Down feat, makes for a decidedly deadly character.
I've never viewed the monk as a primary front-line combatant and in my opinion, he shouldn't be. His role is to assist those that are the front-line combatants, much in the same manner that a rogue does. Containing enemy spell-casters? None are better suited to the task than the monk. Dealing with the lower level thugs/warriors of the BBEG? Once again, a task they are suited for. I think the main thing that a lot of people forget is that in movies when you see monks throwing down against someone, they are usually facing other monks (or low level fighter types). An equal or higher level fighter type should be able to cause the monk fits when he faces off against them. And this idea is usually borne out in movies and thus has been carried over into the game.
The monk class has never been perfect, but this version is a big step in the right direction.
Now if we could just get martial art styles (bonus feats laid out to simulate, like what was started with the Scorpion feats) thrown in....
LazarX |
I want to feel that the Monk is part of the Pathfinder setting. That the Monk exists alongside other classes, using weapons that are part of the world, but doing things differently from how a Rogue or Fighter would do them.
I want to avoid the fate the Monk received when 3.0 Plunked them down oh so unceremoniously with a weapon list of things nobody in the game world has ever heard of or pronounced, with a flavor that doesn't even jive with most of the artwork.
Monastaries were plunked down in previously existing settings where they didn't exist, all to find some explanation for these strangers existing somewhere in solitude training and using weapons nobody else knows how to use.
They were called Monks for a reason, they're not just average sword swingers who got a bit of ambition in thier stride, or pocket picking street punks. A large part of the appeal for roleplaying the Monk has always been the exotic atmosphere of mystery they bring with them. And yes, they were based largely on Chinese Saturday flicks and other related media. Turn them into just "everyday folks" and you might as well just drop the class entirely in favor of creating some new feats for fighters and rogues to use. The flavor can be changed, to the point we're they're Hobgoblin Martial Artists instead of Monks, but the exotic is always what gave this class the fun it had.
It's hard to imagine what the criteria is you're shooting for? Do you want the Monk to be an automatic part of Squirrel's "Fantastic Four"? If so, which of those classic roles would he be looking to displace? I don't think you can regear the Monk to replace any of the standard fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue set for a standard pre-bought module, but home campaigns can be made a lot more flexible than anything you buy from a store, even if that store is Paizo.
Skjaldbakka |
"I'm playing a swashbuckler/fighter/dervish that isn't the best at hitting or dealing damage, but with combat expertise, he puts up a huge AC, soaking up attack actions that would otherwise damage other party members. Convert that character to a monk, and you get superior saving throws along with evasion; now he's able to make spellcasters waste spells on him, too. This frees up others to position themselves, focus on other enemies, apply healing, or do whatever it is they're good at doing."
How, exactly, are you 'forcing' anything to 'waste' attacks or spells on you in this scenario? With the possible exception of seeming to be the easiest target to squish in the surprise round, I see "ignore in favor of targets that are an actual threat to my well-being" as being the modus operandi of most intelligent foes.
Now, I have played a monk/occult slayer dwarf who proceeded to survive a 16th level sorceror unloading into him with spells for 6-7 rounds, but that was primarily due to three factors:
1- I had mettle from some other PrC that I don't remember
2- The sorcerer was very poorly designed, throwing mostly damage or save-lose spells. If he'd had any terrain manipulation or no-save, just suck spells, I would have been toast.
3- It was one-on-one, so I was the only target.
Aaron Whitley |
I think Blink would be a bad example for a rogue since he does get a 20% miss chance while blinking. Also, although it doesn't specifically say so in the description of the Blink spell, the 20% miss chance that the rogue gets could be due to concealment which means that Sneak Attack wouldn't be an option (assuming that the 20% miss chance for the rogue is for the same reason that the enemy gets a 20% miss chance). Now the rogue could get sneak attack every round if he/she were using Greater Invisibility but at 20th level, True Seeing is readily available so that might not even be a particularly good option.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik |
In my opinion the Monk is a Wis base character, they are a "Zen" machine. I propose these solutions to the Monk:
1st Level"Zen Insight: A Monk can use his Wis modifier in place of Str to determine bonuses to hit."
6th level Zen Mastery: A Monk's superior knowledge and control of his body allows him to add 1/2 his Wis modifier as an enhancement bonus to his attack and damage rolls, up to a maximum of +5(this eliminates the need for gauntlets, ki straps, amulets of mighty fists etc., only if u wish to add elemental damage. Given that lvl 6th Monk will probably have a Wis of no more than 21(PC characters i am thinking) the enhancement will only be +2 to hit and dam, and you would have to have a 30 Wis to make it +5.I am also with the bandwagon of Monks should be a debuffing harrier.
I propose that a Monk should have to use his Ki pool as an immediate/swift action when he lands a successful strike to have any one of these debuffs occur:
Blindness: a Monk on a successful attack can use 1 Ki point to cause blindness to occur in an opponent that lasts 1d4+1 round if the opponent does not succeed at a REF save 10+1/2 monk level+wis mod(think Muay Thai elbow strike acroos the bridge of someones eyes,causing blood to bleed into them)
Debilatating Blow:on a successful strike, a Monk can use 2 Ki point to cause the opponent to temp lose 2 Dex for 1d4+1 rounds. The Dex ability damage can be increased by one for every Ki point the Monks uses on the strike.
Hamper movement: On a succesful strike, a Monk can use 1 Ki point to reduce the speed of an opponent by 1/2 for 1d4+1 round if the opponent fails a REF save vs 10+1/2 Monk levels+Wis mod(think Muay THai low kicks to the shin of inner thigh)
Improved Stunning Blow: A monk can increase the duration of a stunning blow by adding Ki points on a 1 point per additional round of stun.Also, a Monk should have Ki points equal to his Monk level plus his Wis mod.
This wont make the Monk the frontline fighter, but it will make him less MAD dependant, and his role will...
I like your WIS modifiers. Add this the the Monk's stride I came up with here
Throw in a dash of ki abilities that stat boost, and we've got good monk.
I still like my idea of breaking down the feats and abilities into training categories similar to the rogue's rather than just bonus feats.
It allows for more customization than feat additions.
Joey Virtue |
Rathendar wrote:Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What about giving them the feat out of monte cookes Book of Experimental Might II: Bloody, Bold, and Resolute
Pg 40Hands as Weapons [General]
You hone your body so that it can hold special magical abilities.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You or someone else can add an enhancement bonus or
a weapon special ability (such as flaming or disruption) to your
unarmed attacks. You must add the bonus or abilities normally,
such as by enlisting the aid of a character with the Craft Magic
Arms and Armor feat who pays the gold and XP costs, and so on.
Like weapons, these bonuses and abilities can be suppressed, but
not permanently dispelled. Obviously, some weapon special abilities,
such as dancing, cannot apply to your unarmed attacks.
This feat can modify unarmed attacks with natural weapons,
such as claws or a bite attack. Characters with more than one
unarmed or natural attack need not take this feat multiple times
Derringer |
Earlier someone suggested that Withdraw provokes attacks of opportunity. Withdrawing doesn't provoke AoO from your current opponent unless they have reach, or you leave more than one of their threatened squares.
I would really like to see 3.Pathfinder kill off the potion thrower by adjusting Quick Draw. All they have to do is ajudicate clearly that a vial is not a weapon and that the feat does not cover improvised weapons.
I think you are thinking about where I suggested that the Gorgon Fist- Medusa Wrath isn't as easy to escape from as a simple Withdraw because Withdraw is a full round action. After being hit with the Gorgon Fist - Withdraw is no longer an option.