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Because I like Rathendar more... :-P
Sorry, I must have missed that from earlier. I am not 100% sold on the idea just yet, but I have some ideas brewing. I am going to let them ferment a bit before posting them though.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I have always house-ruled that a monk could buy a pair of leather gloves, or "special" hand wraps and could enchant them. It always made sense to me. Sure, they have to be special hand wraps, not some random piece of cloth, but the idea still remains sound.
I do stand with Jason on the idea of what monks are for and what role they play. I have never had a problem with monks in my games being useless or sub-par. I think the new ki pool is fantastic.
All that said, (and using my play test last night (short 3hrs but still a simple play test of new classes)) I do think that monks should get more abilities to use the ki pool for. Elemental damage and +hit bonus come to mind. Now i'm not trying to turn it into dragon ball z or something... (personally i don't like DBZ at all) but the idea of focusing ones ki into elemental damage comes to mind from alot of movies... Lost Empire and The Dark Kingdom off the top of my head.
I do like the new monk and will play more with it. Same goes for the other new classes. But i do think adding unarmed damage to monk weapons, and possible new ki abilities would help a little bit. At least if we want to make the monk do similar damage to the rogue.
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So where's the monk's equivalent to sneak attack?It's called "flurry of blows" and an escalating damage die.Whereas Rogues go TWF and get more attacks which deal more damage per hit and can get dex to hit (*and* go potion thrower for *ranged touch attacks*).
Flurry of Blows << SA
Seriously, Monks need a good array of disabling attacks. And by good I mean comparable to wizard spells available at their level in terms of the amount of disabling. Because they aren't damage machines, and debuffing is the only way they could possibly justify their existence otherwise.
If the monk will be doing damage and inflicting a disabling/debuff effect then i think they should not be up on par with the wizards spells/effects, as the wizard's disables don't have a damage component included typically.
I am however in agreement that it is a nice idea/concept and am curious to see what types of things can be worked up as ideas/thinktank after a week or so when the alpha 3 has had some time to percolate and settle in the minds of the large numbers of creative people i have seen frequenting these boards.I'll try my own hand at it, if mothman doesn't beat me to the ideas i come up with first ;)
But the wizard is doing them to a room full of people, the Monk has to hit the guy first, and then its *just one guy*. The trivial amount of damage the monk happens to deal doesn't make up that difference.
I'll probably do something with it myself - man i'm never going to finish working over the Barbarian...
But a monk can do it to 400 individuals a day, and a wizard can't...a wizard isn't supposed to sling his ultra powerful spells every round of combat...
I'm not sure where (i'm thinking magic item compendium) there was a kama that let you use your unarmed strike damage, that was REALLY nifty.
But back on topic (i think?) I LOOOOOOOOOVE the idea of enchanted hand wrappings or perhaps fingerless gloves or something like that.
Heck in whatever form they take (probably hand wrappings) it takes like one or two lines of text to say that they can take the shape of gloves too and whatnot.
All that said, (and using my play test last night (short 3hrs but still a simple play test of new classes)) I do think that monks should get more abilities to use the ki pool for. Elemental damage and +hit bonus come to mind. Now i'm not trying to turn it into dragon ball z or something... (personally i don't like DBZ at all) but the idea of focusing ones ki into elemental damage comes to mind from alot of movies... Lost Empire and The Dark Kingdom off the top of my head.
I think I like this option a lot more than lots of enchanted items, be they wraps or monk weapons. Calling on your inner strengths, your ki, is much more in line with the "feel" of a monk then running around with enchanted ace bandage wraps :)
I think I like this option a lot more than lots of enchanted items, be they wraps or monk weapons. Calling on your inner strengths, your ki, is much more in line with the "feel" of a monk then running around with enchanted ace bandage wraps :)
All that said, (and using my play test last night (short 3hrs but still a simple play test of new classes)) I do think that monks should get more abilities to use the ki pool for. Elemental damage and +hit bonus come to mind. Now i'm not trying to turn it into dragon ball z or something... (personally i don't like DBZ at all) but the idea of focusing ones ki into elemental damage comes to mind from alot of movies... Lost Empire and The Dark Kingdom off the top of my head.
You could also think of it as that you are using the gloves/wrappings as somewhat of a foci for your ki and inner concentration to help better guide your attacks.
Though not the best example, many anime things have examples of items that concentrate an energy into a single focal point.
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I really like the monk and what's been done to it, just a suggestion for the bonus feat for monks to add Vital Strike at 10th or 14th level to the list and improved Vital Strike at 14th or 18th level. Gives a nice extra option to the class.Well, there's nothing that stop monks of selecting those feats when they meet the prerequisites, and indeed they are excellent for upgrading those flurry of blows that so many times are (imho) misjudged as "miss more often".
As was pointed out earlier, Improved Vital Strike has a requirment of +16BAB, that means no single class monk can ever attain it.
You could also think of it as that you are using the gloves/wrappings as somewhat of a foci for your ki and inner concentration to help better guide your attacks.
Though not the best example, many anime things have examples of items that concentrate an energy into a single focal point.
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I just would hate to see armies of monks running around with robes of harmonious bliss, wrappings of butt-kicking, and amulets of superfly. ;)
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I have an idea that would really bring the monk's unarmed attacks in line with the rogue's.
Level 4: unarmed attacks have critical threat range of 19-20.
Level 8: unarmed attacks have critical multiplier increased to x3.
Level 12:unarmed attacks have critical threat range of 18-20.
Level 16:unarmed attacks have critical multiplier increased to x4.
Level 20:unarmed attacks have critical threat range of 17-20.
Just as an aside, I always have been bugged by "ki", as monks have always been more "kung fu" than "karate" and in Kung fu it's "qi".
Just because someone is a 5th or even 6th player, it doesn't mean their class should suck. All the classes should be good. Currently that isn't even close to the case.
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Apologies in advance if I missed this suggestion alsewhere in the thread, but there was a solution created for this in Magic of Faerun - Bracers of Striking. Why not just make a Pathfinder version of that item? It allows the monk to keep his unarmed damage, but allows him to add weapon special abilities to his unarmed strikes.
The only problem is that you could not, as written, add an enhancement bonus to them. But if you take the idea in Arms & Equipment Guide about putting armor special abilities into Bracers of Armor and "flip" it....that would work and be balanced against other traditional weapon-wielders.
Obviously, this would have to be done without violating copyright, since neither of those books are OGL I think (I may be wrong about Arms & Equipment). But it's possible...
Just my humble 2cp! :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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1) I agree that a monk should be a mobility specialist. Which makes me wonder why the hell it has special abilities that are good at dropping him into danger and then ending his turn.
2) I think a monk should be the special ops guy. A "melee debuffer" as someone put it. He should be able to punch you and daze you, or stagger you, or temporarily blind you. A monk should be able to nerve punch you and reduce your number of attacks, or your movement. He should ABSOLUTELY have insane bonuses to CMB. He should be grappling, and tripping, and bull rushing, and anything else crazy you can think of.
3) I agree that the monk weapon list should be expanded. However, I'm wondering why the monk can't get an "item creation feat" that lets him enchant his own unarmed strikes. His fists are already being treated as magic weapons, or adamantine weapons, or the other one, already. He undergoes lengthy meditation and journeys to mysterious hidden masters, pays his gold and his time, and suddenly his ki lets him have flaming fists, or the ability to punch ghosts, or whatever. One extra feat (or, really, class ability?) that does an end-run around the manufactured items limitation, and it's done.
4) I know from personal experience DMing a monk that Flurry of Blows as written just means the monk gets to miss more.
4A) Would it be a sensible solution to just let the monk start with two attacks at level 1, adding an attack every 4 (6?) levels, and just keeping the flat 3/4 BAB progression?
4B) or would it be more sensible to make Flurry of Blows a ki power with one extra attack per X ki spent and no BAB penalty?
4C) or even make Flurry of Blows a Combat Maneuver, with an extra attack with a successful CM roll, and an additional one on top of that for every 5 he beat the DC?
Is it important that the ehnacement come from something removable like gloves, etc., or would it be okay for a monk to get some sort of magical tattoo that would add an enhancement to their unarmed attacks? I haven't really thought through balance issues, so it may be a dumb idea, but I thought I would throw it out there.
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Playtesting feedback (from last night):
Mods applied to Pathfinder Alpha 3:
-Monk proficient in all simple weapons (monk special weapons are, as noted, simply simple weapons from the Asian milieu, and I have a personal gripe about confining the monk to the chopsocky genre)
-Improved Unarmed Strike is the foundation of monk unarmed combat
-Damage enhancement applies to monk use of any weapon with which the monk class is proficient (as opposed to increasing only unarmed damage)
-Ki focus ritual ability added at level 6, allowing monk to meditate, sacrifice XP and spend GP on ritual materials like creating a magic item, to create wrappings that can be applied to any monk-proficient weapon (including unarmed) and accomplish enhancement equivalent to any weapon enhancement for that monk only
-Flurry of Blows as a standard attack at double ki pool cost
-Improved Vital Strike Feat Tree available to monk without meeting BAB prerequisites
-Wisdom mod to apply to BAB and Damage with monk proficient weapons
Result:
Pure multicultural butt-kicking bliss for my three monk characters in the playtest. They adventured in a party with a fighter, wizard, and paladin and thoroughly contributed at our 10th, 15th and 20th level playtest combats.
The 'can't fly' problem was minimal at higher levels due to the application of magic items that the players purchased as flight became more of an issue; monks don't have to be broke.
Note:
No multiclassing or prestige classing applied, all human race only.
Opponents were a Giant, a Dragon, and an undead in each case.
I anticipate that the monk would be much more lethal and potentially unbalancing against a humanoid character of equivalent level (all those combat abilities work best against PC types, after all).
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Obtuse: not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
Jack, I suggest that if your real intention is to debate and get a clearer indication of Jason’s thinking, you might do a lot better if you dropped the insults. Might make you come across as less of a prick too. Win/win.
Thanks Mothman,
I do know what obtuse means but I wasn't using it as an insult. It was just a contraction of "you're not considering all the details". To Jason and anyone else who felt I was being less than cordial I apologize.
JoS.
Other than the problem of not being able to enhance their primary weapon as others, I think the other big problem is that the monk's best offensive feature (flurry of blows) requires sacrificing his primary advantage (his mobility).
I would prefer to see flurry of blows be an attack action that can be used as a standard action, as part of a charge, or in a spring attack.
This would greatly enhance their combat ability by allowing them to maintain their mobility while getting in the extra high-bab attacks that they're known for.
If this seems too powerful perhaps it could be used in this manner but only by expending a number of points from their ki pool.
A couple of whacky suggestions.
1. There are some really interesting d20 Modern martial arts splat books -- it might be useful to steal some ideas from there.
2. Enchanted MuayThai prajioud - armbands.
CJ
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(As an aside, antagonistic thread titles like this one kinda set me off... which might account for some of my earlier defensiveness. My apologies if things were taken that way.)
Heh,
I'm in marketing so I tend to over compensate when I want to catch people's attention. However, it seems to have worked as it has generated some real discussion on the problems and possible fixes for the Monk. I'm especially pleased that people who are better able to illustrate the problems than I am have joined the discussion (Squirrelloid I'm looking at you.)
JoS
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I always felt the list of 'Monk Weapons' was somewhat silly and redundant. It may be done for game balance but the way I see it the game balance achieved is minimal at best.
The thing is, most 'Monk Weapons' are just Asian versions of pre-existing simple weapons.
Kama=Sickle
Nunchaku=Light Flail
Siangham=Arrow/Dagger (Honestly, really, what is a Siangham but a Dagger that can be used for special Monk Attacks?)How about instead of going through this extra redundancy, just let the Monk use Simple weapons, then they'd actually be able to use Spears, weapons that actual Shaolin and Wudan Monks (The main inspiration for this class) train with.
It may seem imbalanced but I've seen a Shaolin Monk 'Flurry Of Blows' with a spear in a demonstration before, and it'd get rid of the necessity to have a bunch of extra exotic weapons that are nearly identical to previously existing weapons.
I agree with this. The old Jo and Bo sticks form 1.0 were dropped in favor of Quarterstaff. This seems like a logical extension.
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So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well,
I don't like that correcting the BAB is simply off the table but that will have to be my private burning coal to swallow. Allowing the Monk access to the weapon and armor enchantments that every other class enjoys is one step towards parity.
However, to compare the Monk with the Rogue as you seem to be doing something must done to compensate for the fact that a rogues primary stat is Dex (a heavy combat influencing stat) and a Monk's is Wisdom (heavily NOT a combat influencing stat.) Allow the Monk to add their Wis mod. to to-hit rolls (but not to damage as that is already accommodated for.) This greatly reduces the Monk's dependency on multiple attributes and allows them to compete at the same level as the Rogue in combat.
Something else that should be looked at however is the Monk's secondary role. Clerics and Rogues have a lower BAB because they have auxiliary roles in the party structure. A cleric heals, a rogue has all it's trapfinding and subterfuge abilities, a monk.... What does a monk do outside of a fight? Are they the party courier? All that speed must be useful for something.
JoS
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The Ki pool can be central in offsetting most of these concerns. It functions strucuturally in the same way the barbarian's rage pool does in that it adds flexibility.
I would tweak the mechanic slightly and develop a pallette of design options that make sense. This forum might be a good place for suggestions as to potential powers.
While playing LG, one of the most effective party's I ever DMed involved a grappling half-orc monk and a group of halflings who all had thief levels. The monk snagged a target, grappled and made it flat-footed. The halflings all attacked gaining their sneak.
A grappling monk is very durable by comparison to the "puncher."
1) I agree that a monk should be a mobility specialist. Which makes me wonder why the hell it has special abilities that are good at dropping him into danger and then ending his turn.2) I think a monk should be the special ops guy. A "melee debuffer" as someone put it. He should be able to punch you and daze you, or stagger you, or temporarily blind you. A monk should be able to nerve punch you and reduce your number of attacks, or your movement. He should ABSOLUTELY have insane bonuses to CMB. He should be grappling, and tripping, and bull rushing, and anything else crazy you can think of.
3) I agree that the monk weapon list should be expanded. However, I'm wondering why the monk can't get an "item creation feat" that lets him enchant his own unarmed strikes. His fists are already being treated as magic weapons, or adamantine weapons, or the other one, already. He undergoes lengthy meditation and journeys to mysterious hidden masters, pays his gold and his time, and suddenly his ki lets him have flaming fists, or the ability to punch ghosts, or whatever. One extra feat (or, really, class ability?) that does an end-run around the manufactured items limitation, and it's done.
4) I know from personal experience DMing a monk that Flurry of Blows as written just means the monk gets to miss more.
4A) Would it be a sensible solution to just let the monk start with two attacks at level 1, adding an attack every 4 (6?) levels, and just keeping the flat 3/4 BAB progression?
4B) or would it be more sensible to make Flurry of Blows a ki power with one extra attack per X ki spent and no BAB penalty?
4C) or even make Flurry of Blows a Combat Maneuver, with an extra attack with a successful CM roll, and an additional one on top of that for every 5 he beat the DC?
I would like to see a bigger bonus to CMB as well as I stated in my earlier post, I'm just not sure how much. I suggested +1 per 3 levels starting at 6, but I'm not sure if that's too high.
Take a monk with a starting dex of fifteen and extend him to 12th level giving him his stat adjustments to dex and give him Agile Maneuvers and Improved disarm, and unarmed strike (1 ability, 1 bonus feat, 1 character feat used). Also lets assume he's managed to get a +2 dex belt somewhere along the way. He's got about a 35% chance of disarming a fighter of the same level with similar gear and stats (str). The monk doesn't take the -4 penalty for being unarmed during disarming, and won't knock the weapon out of your hand but take it.
If you add +3 to that assuming he should have a higher CMB bonus (under what I have stated) He would have about a 50% chance to disarm the fighter. If your a player that's great. If your DM is using monks as an enemy that sucks to be a fighter with a shiny new longsword.
Worse yet, the monk has 70ft of movement at that level. Hope the battle isn't near a cliff, a river, lava, etc...because your weapon is lost the next round (at the very least for the fight). Can you disarm while using spring attack? Given this monk has high dex he will probably have a decent steath skill and good initiative. On an ambush, could you run 30ft, disarm, then flee 40 ft ditching the weapon the begining of the next round?
I think there should be a bonus, but perhaps not a constant one. I think the Ki pool would be a grand solution for this if the monk is to have a better CMB. How about a bonus to CMB for spending a point of Ki? It would at least give some kind of cost for the action of jacking your CMB up and would make the monk pretty effective.
I also think there should be a CMB penalty tied to being flat-footed, but that's another thread. :)
Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I fully support this change, in fact I made a set martial artist classes that implemented this for the Avatar D20 project on the GiantitP forums. Let me dig it out...as a disclaimer, this class was built as part of a set to completely replace all fighter-types and thus used full BAB as well as up the power to that of lower-end casters. Also note that while an AC bonus is not included the Defense Bonus variant from the SRD was used and the Wind Warrior had the "C" tier progression.
BAB: good
Good Saves: Fort and Ref
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Wind Warriors are proficient with the Quarterstaff, War Fan, Light Crossbow, Javelin, Spear, Longspear, and Short Spear as well as her unarmed strikes. Wind Warriors are not proficient in any armor or shields.
Unarmed Strike: A Wind Warrior gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and deals 1d4 damage when using an unarmed strike (for a medium creature). All style levels stack to determine when unarmed damage increases. The increases are as follows: 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 3d6. The damage does not increase passed 3d6.
AC Bonus: While a Wind Warrior is wearing no more than light armor and have no more than light encumbrance, she may add your wisdom modifier to AC. This bonus applies to both touch and flat-footed AC. Additionally, a Wind Warrior gains a defense bonus that increases her AC. These bonuses stack.
Ki Pool: A Wind Warrior has a Ki pool with a number of points equal to 1/2 her class level plus her wisdom modifier. These points can be spent each encounter to execute a technique and are refreshed after every encounter.
Flurry of Blows: Whenever a Wind Warrior makes a standard action attack, she may make one extra attack at a -5 penalty. Whenever a Wind Warrior makes a full-round attack, she may make an extra attack at a -2 penalty. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.
Acrobatics: A Wind Warrior may add her wisdom modifier as a bonus to all tumble, jump, and balance checks
Evasion: A Wind Warrior gains evasion as the Rogue ability.
Weapon Strike: A Wind Warrior may deal damage with a class weapon equal to her unarmed strike damage. Additionally, a Wind Warrior may take fighter-only feats as if she had fighter level equal to her Wind Warrior levels.
Fast Movement: A Wind Warrior moves as fast as the wind to stay out of harm's way. A Wind Warrior gains a +10ft bonus to her base land speed. This bonus increase to +20ft 9th level, +30ft at 15th level and +40ft at 18th level.
Swift Step: A Wind Warrior can expend 1 Ki point to instantly take a 5 foot step that provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability may be used as an immediate action, but not more than once per round.
Sway in the Wind: A Wind Warrior can increase her defenses by moving too fast for others to hit her. By taking a move action, a Wind Warrior may spend a number of Ki points up to her wisdom modifier, granting her a +2 dodge bonus to AC per point spent until the end of her next turn. This bonus increase to +4 at 12th level and +6 at 20th level. At 17th level a Wind Warrior can instead activate this technique by taking an immediate action, though she must take a move action on her next turn to recover.
Fury of the Wind: At the end of a charge, if the Wind Warrior moved at least up to her base land speed, she may make a full-round attack. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.
Improved Flurry of Blows: The penalty for the extra attack in a standard action is reduced to -2 and the penalty is removed for a full round action. Additionally, you may make one more extra attack at a -5 and -2 on a standard action attack and full-round attack respectively. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.
Lift of the Gale: A Wind Warrior is always considered to have a running start on all jump checks.
Improved Swift Step: A Wind Warrior can expend 1 Ki point to instantly take up to two 5 foot steps which provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability may be used as an immediate action, but not more than once per round.
Greater Flurry of Blows: The penalty for the first extra attack in a standard action is removed. The penalty of the second extra attack in a standard action is reduced to -2 and removed for a full-round attack. Additionally, you may make one more extra attack at a -5 and -2 on a standard action attack and full-round attack respectively. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.
Greater Swift Step: A Wind Warrior can expend 1 Ki point to instantly take up to three 5 foot steps which provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability may be used as an immediate action, but not more than once per round.
Master of the Breeze: A Wind Warrior who has mastered her style is a paragon of dexterous and flowing attacks and dodges. A Wind Warrior may resolve her attacks with class weapons and unarmed strikes as touch attacks. A Wind Warrior must spend 1 Ki point per attack to use this ability.
Feel free to steal what you wish.
I hate to be a spoilsport, but I think that for the people who advocate the adding of a ton of exotic weapons that are easily representable by pre-existing 'western' (weapons are almost universal on that list anyways) as exotic and 'monk' weapons is a very, very bad idea.
The less need for Monks to follow crazy rules with weapons that don't apply to anyone else and nobody else can use, the better.
Monks need to feel like more a part of the everyday game, and less a niche class that was thrown in from another setting.
Naginata=Glaive, you can make a light glaive if you really wanted to, but less exotic weapons, please?
Exotic weapons should be things that are hard to use and not regularly found, not farming implements and slightly different shaped swords.
Edit: Let me clarify,
I want to feel that the Monk is part of the Pathfinder setting. That the Monk exists alongside other classes, using weapons that are part of the world, but doing things differently from how a Rogue or Fighter would do them.
I want to avoid the fate the Monk received when 3.0 Plunked them down oh so unceremoniously with a weapon list of things nobody in the game world has ever heard of or pronounced, with a flavor that doesn't even jive with most of the artwork.
Monastaries were plunked down in previously existing settings where they didn't exist, all to find some explanation for these strangers existing somewhere in solitude training and using weapons nobody else knows how to use.
I like the direction the Pathfinder Fluff and art is going, almost into exalted territory, making the Monk feel at home. This is what we need, not more silly exceptions.
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IMPORTANT NOTE
What ever form the ability for monks to add weapon and/or armor enhancements takes it should NOT take up a body slot. The Monk should not take a penalty to gain the same bonuses as other classes. Hand wraps should be able to be worn under gloves. Bangles should be able to be worn under (over?) gauntlets.
Someone mentioned that a Monk's unarmed strikes are more than just their hands and that hand wraps wouldn't convey the bonuses to all the body parts. Simply, we just view the "wraps" as a focus that conveys the abilities to the Monk's whole body. Admittedly this may lead to a monk doing +3 vorpal tongue strikes but to me that just sounds like the beginnings of a really neat villain for my campaign.
JoS
Flurry of Blows[The monk] may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk
weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons
as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies his full Strength
bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether
he wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t
use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part
of a flurry of blows.
I don't see that monks need to be able to enchant their fists. The monk has access to enchanted weapons just as anyone else and is fully allowed to use them in his key damage dealing ability.
Yes, flurry of blows completely unarmed has flavor. However, is there not just as much flavor with a monk taking his quarterstaff and smacking a baddie five times in a row with it in quick succession? Or taking a set of rapid stabs with a siangham? And with nunchaku...that's awesome flavor, right there.
Part of the point of the increasing damage of the unarmed strike is to keep up with the increased damage of enchanted weapons. So, enchanted fists may very well be overpowered for the monk's role when compared to the same attacks with enchanted weapons.
So...let's take a lvl 15 monk. He has the choice of using 26d unarmed strike damage or a +5 nunchaku. Let's say that he has the horridly expensive +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists that makes his attacks magical, same as the nunchaku.
So, level 15 monk, flurry of blows, unarmed with amulet vs armed with enchanted weapon
2d6+1 x 5 or 1d6+5 x 5.
Max 65 vs max 55
Note, however, that they are hitting a lot more often with that +5, so they average damage is probably the same or higher than with the unarmed at +1.
If the monk is allowed to enchant his fists at the same rate and cost as a weapon, that turns into:
2d6+5 x 5 vs 1d6+5 x 5.
Max 85 vs max 55
The unarmed attack here is hitting just as often as the enchanted weapon and it's hitting a LOT harder.
So...when you let the monk enchant his fists, there seems to be a balance issue. Of course, I haven't had time to playtest that, but that's my feeling.
Also, this just explained to me why that amulet costs so much. Guess I get to explain that to my monk player now. :)
yea, but wouldn't the averages be 35/40 and 55/40 respectively?
That makes the difference -5 & +15. The unarmed is a smaller average with a lower hit percentage in the first example. Also as I said the wraps wouldn't need to be weapons. They could be wonderous items that effectively give a bonus or an ability like ghost-touch which the monk loses out on with his unarmed...but I suppose he might as well pick up a ghost touch weapon and use it seeing is his damage with a magical weapon will be higher given the same bonus.
I think the best choice would be such an item with a reasonable cost...but of course that's more space in your book which probably gets more into concerns about publishing than I care to step into. :P
yea, but wouldn't the averages be 35/40 and 55/40 respectively?
That makes the difference -5 & +15. Also as I said the wraps wouldn't need to be weapons. They could be wonderous items that effectively give a bonus or an ability like ghost-touch which the monk loses out on with his unarmed...but I suppose he might as well pick up a ghost touch weapon and use it seeing is his damage with a magical weapon will be higher given the same bonus.
I think the best choice would be such an item with a reasonable cost...but of course that's more space in your book.
So, a +3 amulet and a +5 weapon have about the same price, within a few thousand gold (a small percentage when you're at those levels). The +3 fists will hit a bit less often, but will hit for more.
I think that the amulet versus the weapon is already correctly balanced.
IMHO, no new item, enchant, etc is needed. The current one seems to work well. (Again, with the caveat that I have not playtested this. This is just mathematical, and shooting from the hip.)
yea, but wouldn't the averages be 35/40 and 55/40 respectively?
That makes the difference -5 & +15. Also as I said the wraps wouldn't need to be weapons. They could be wonderous items that effectively give a bonus or an ability like ghost-touch which the monk loses out on with his unarmed...but I suppose he might as well pick up a ghost touch weapon and use it seeing is his damage with a magical weapon will be higher given the same bonus.
I think the best choice would be such an item with a reasonable cost...but of course that's more space in your book.
So, a +3 amulet and a +5 weapon have about the same price, within a few thousand gold (a small percentage when you're at those levels). The +3 fists will hit a bit less often, but will hit for more.
I think that the amulet versus the weapon is already correctly balanced.
IMHO, no new item, enchant, etc is needed. The current one seems to work well. (Again, with the caveat that I have not playtested this. This is just mathematical, and shooting from the hip.)
Yea, I'm more thinking along the lines of those bonuses being put towards something like bane or ghost touch which is what I really want to see out of the wraps idea...that or adjust the amulet to do it (but I like the wraps flavor better than the pimp-medallion :P).
The monk already loses out on some weapon tricks the rest of the party gets...two handing, two weapon, and shield stuff doesn't mesh that well with the monk. I'm not sure what the cost would be but I think something could be hit on that was the right mark.
That or the wraps could only do that...no attack and damage bonus, just an equivalent cost and have the amulet add the attack and damage bonuses. This means 2 slots would be taken up to use them (which I don't really dig, but it would work towards their being a higher cost for the usage).
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So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingSomething i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Well, you could reduce the price of amulets of mighty fists, or make bracers, or "monk" gauntlets. You could even give them a permanent +1 enhancement bonus to their natural attacks at every level they gain a new bypass DR/X ability. The unarmed strike damage for monk weapons idea sounds pretty good too. Another thing to consider is that they are not the masters of combat maneuvers. Fighters are still better than them, because fighters will have a higher strength. They need at least a +1 bonus to their CMB every four or five levels on top of the bonuses they already get.
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I think when reading this thread that people have a misunderstanding of the use of the ki pool. That's just an impression I get, but it seems to me that some people think you have to use a ki point to use a flurry of blows, or to have your fists treated as magic weapons, neither of which is the case. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get when I read some of these posts. Ki pool to me works fine and makes sense so I don't understand some peoples gripe with it.
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I hate to be a spoilsport, but I think that for the people who advocate the adding of a ton of exotic weapons that are easily representable by pre-existing 'western' (weapons are almost universal on that list anyways) as exotic and 'monk' weapons is a very, very bad idea.
The less need for Monks to follow crazy rules with weapons that don't apply to anyone else and nobody else can use, the better.
Monks need to feel like more a part of the everyday game, and less a niche class that was thrown in from another setting.
Naginata=Glaive, you can make a light glaive if you really wanted to, but less exotic weapons, please?
Exotic weapons should be things that are hard to use and not regularly found, not farming implements and slightly different shaped swords.
Edit: Let me clarify,
I want to feel that the Monk is part of the Pathfinder setting. That the Monk exists alongside other classes, using weapons that are part of the world, but doing things differently from how a Rogue or Fighter would do them.
I want to avoid the fate the Monk received when 3.0 Plunked them down oh so unceremoniously with a weapon list of things nobody in the game world has ever heard of or pronounced, with a flavor that doesn't even jive with most of the artwork.
Monastaries were plunked down in previously existing settings where they didn't exist, all to find some explanation for these strangers existing somewhere in solitude training and using weapons nobody else knows how to use.
I like the direction the Pathfinder Fluff and art is going, almost into exalted territory, making the Monk feel at home. This is what we need, not more silly exceptions.
In Golarion there will be a rich exotic feel. They have already shown us a little in the Pathfinder APs. I'm sorry you hadn't heard of some of the exotic weapons, but I assure you, there was a whole group of us who had indeed heard of those weapons. In addition it wasn't a 3.0 inclusion, there were way more weapons in 1st and 2nd edition.
