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To throw more fuel on that fire, Iomedae has been described as "more forward thinking than her former patron". Maybe some old traditions got turned over starting with her taking up Aroden's mantle. Or maybe such things could have started earlier, after Io's apotheosis with her playing the "good angel" on Aroden's shoulder.
Adding in the recent mention of Iomedae as wanting to smite Kotchtchie so hard for his misogyny(and being the only good god mentioned this way in the Kotchtchie article), she really does feel like a natural crusader against gender and orientation discrimination.
To throw more fuel on that fire, Iomedae has been described as "more forward thinking than her former patron". Maybe some old traditions got turned over starting with her taking up Aroden's mantle. Or maybe such things could have started earlier, after Io's apotheosis with her playing the "good angel" on Aroden's shoulder.
That sounds reasonable. Aroden was a LN dude, so I imagine his being God of Humanity did not mean he liked any humanity that came by, but rather that he had a specific vision of humanity that he promoted. To judge from Golarion's history, that vision included a fair bit of empire and at least implicit domination of other races.
To riff on that more, maybe Aroden as "God of Humanity" is a later development and originally Aroden was more the God of Azlanti-descended Taldans or something like that. Aroden chose them to rule, and he ruled over them, so naturally he was lord of all humans. Fast forward a thousand or so years and Aroden Of All Taldans becomes Aroden of All Men. Like Zeus Panhellenios. (Aroden Pananthropios?)
Which now has me thinking about a sort of theological progression from Aroden as most beloved of the gods, to Aroden King of Heaven and then Aroden the One True God. I should find a way to use that somewhere.
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On the other hand, certain 'medieval fantasy' rules do seem to apply. Powerful wizards (Geb, Nex, Razmir, old-mage-what-his-name/Jatembe?) are dudes. Women only rule if the male ruler died and left them in charge (Ileosa) or they are Eeevil (Elvanna, and Ileosa, again) or they are not human (elf-queens), all pandering to the old trope that, since women aren't *supposed* to be 'above' men, a female ruler must be evil or unnatural or whatever.
Queen Galfrey?
Queen Zamere?
White Estrid?
General Audrya Vannisar?
The female Runelords (as far as powerful wizards go)?
Hayla Sagginsdottir?
Queen Domina?
Carmina Ustav?
Trietta Ricia?
The Song Pharaoh?
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think we need more female heads of state in Golarion, but the idea that they all came to power because men left them in charge, or they're evil and unnatural, isn't really an accurate description.
And, adding to that list for those that complete the AP, Ameiko Kaijitsu :)
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Queen Galfrey?
Queen Zamere?
White Estrid?
General Audrya Vannisar?
Hayla Sagginsdottir?
Queen Domina?
Carmina Ustav?
Trietta Ricia?
The Song Pharaoh?
If you have to cherry pick female rulers as long dead as the Song Pharoah or Carmina Ustav, that's probably as much a point for me as for you, as a list of long dead *male* rulers and pharaohs would be quite a bit longer. (And Queen Domina is pretty solidly in the 'evil queen' category.)
Queen Galfrey, being a present day ruler, and one that rules an entire nation, definitely counts, 'though. Ditto Trietta Ricia.
Still, I think we're agreed that more non-evil women-in-charge is a good thing.
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Here's a little something for bisexual and polyamorous folks out there courtesy of Champions of Purity:
The faithful of Kofusachi*, the Jack Black of Golarion's good aligned gods, teach that "love should not be limited to one partner, or to partners of just one race or gender".
*God of abundance, discovery, happiness, and prosperity. Worshipped primarily in the Dragon Empries.
Is there a link to his info?
EDIT: While not Golarion I find it interesting at how GRRM has handled Homosexuality in Westeros and the rest of the Known World of ASoI&F. That is it is openly accepted and expected.
Apparently he has been confirmed as saying a lot of things on this subject. A lot of which was supposedly collected in Night's Watch.
Men come to the Wall for their own reasons. Some come because they have no choice, some because they have no other option, and some for no reason that others can discern. The Game of Thrones is about loyalties, bloodlines, and inheritance. Legacies are power, and matrimony and progeny is how these things are secured.
That sort of life is not ideal for everyone, though. In the oath of the Night’s Watch, it states: “I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.” Short of a maester’s chain, the Watch is nearly the only group in Westeros where both highborn and common men who do not want a wife or children can live unpressured by society, not thought of as strange or somehow deviant for not wishing to (or being unable to) provide an heir. Sex with women is prohibited to the extent that it forms external ties; the Watch tends to turn a blind eye to sexual expression that precludes those possibilities, whether it’s visiting girls in Mole’s Town, romancing free folk women, or same-sex relationships between brothers.
It is clear from the novels that homosexuality is not viewed in anything like the way modern society sees them. Close same-sex relationships are common and expected throughout society. Physical intimacy in those relationships is also common and expected. Sexual intimacy is an act, not an identity, and exists apart from and alongside same-sex bonding within Westerosi society. So long as personal attachments and preferences don’t get in the way of the Game of Thrones, it’s no one’s business—and on the Wall, the Game of Thrones is largely moot.
In short, however a man stays warm on the Wall is, frankly, his own business, so long as all parties are consenting. There are more important things to worry about when the Long Night comes.
And, adding to that list for those that complete the AP, Ameiko Kaijitsu :)
I'd also add:
Lady Satarai-Gongen the ruler of Kwanlai (half-celestial tengu Cleric 14)
Argrinyxia the Shifting Lady of Ebon Scales, ruler of Shadow Absalom (yeah sure she's evil, and a great wyrm shadow dragon with sorcerer levels, but for completeness sake, I figured we could add her)
Sultana A’shadieeyah bint Khalid ruler of the Shaitan genies of Elemental Earth
Dirimalia VI, ruler of the fire mephits of Elemental Flame
Is there a link to his info?
EDIT: While not Golarion I find it interesting at how GRRM has handled Homosexuality in Westeros and the rest of the Known World of ASoI&F. That is it is openly accepted and expected.
Apparently he has been confirmed as saying a lot of things on this subject. A lot of which was supposedly collected in Night's Watch.
** spoiler omitted **...
Also I never got the impression that people joined the Nightwatch to be openly gay. Most of the recruits are either retired noblemen, extra noblemen that need to have something to do, and by the vast majority the poor and criminal. Yeah there are implied gay relationships at the wall, but again I would say from how they are referenced it's mostly again a "don't ask, don't tell situation"
And, adding to that list for those that complete the AP, Ameiko Kaijitsu :)I'd also add:
Lady Satarai-Gongen the ruler of Kwanlai (half-celestial tengu Cleric 14)
Argrinyxia the Shifting Lady of Ebon Scales, ruler of Shadow Absalom (yeah sure she's evil, and a great wyrm shadow dragon with sorcerer levels, but for completeness sake, I figured we could add her)
Sultana A’shadieeyah bint Khalid ruler of the Shaitan genies of Elemental Earth
Dirimalia VI, ruler of the fire mephits of Elemental Flame
Where'd you get most of that information? Like, I've never even heard of Shadow Absalom.
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Still, I think we're agreed that more non-evil women-in-charge is a good thing.
My boy Set standing his ground against the JJJP tagteam of designer awesomeness makes me proud.
Hey, Set, I've got this awesome idea, check it out:
We play in short bursts on a week day morning at the Relentless Dragon--it'll be like all of that D&D drought disappeared...
I'll even write the Campaign Log.
Where'd you get most of that information? Like, I've never even heard of Shadow Absalom.And, adding to that list for those that complete the AP, Ameiko Kaijitsu :)I'd also add:
Lady Satarai-Gongen the ruler of Kwanlai (half-celestial tengu Cleric 14)
Argrinyxia the Shifting Lady of Ebon Scales, ruler of Shadow Absalom (yeah sure she's evil, and a great wyrm shadow dragon with sorcerer levels, but for completeness sake, I figured we could add her)
Sultana A’shadieeyah bint Khalid ruler of the Shaitan genies of Elemental Earth
Dirimalia VI, ruler of the fire mephits of Elemental Flame
It's in The Great Beyond. He wrote it.
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And, adding to that list for those that complete the AP, Ameiko Kaijitsu :)I'd also add:
Lady Satarai-Gongen the ruler of Kwanlai (half-celestial tengu Cleric 14)
Also the leaders of the following nations:
Amanandar: General Audrya VannisarGoka: Lady Nai Yan Fei
Hwanggot: Queen Hyun Eun-suk and her daughter/heir Hyun Geon-ji (presumably—we haven't statted Geon-ji up yet)
Xidao: High Matriarch Urakadussi
There's also the cultural heroes Hao Jin (may or may not still be alive) and Sulunai.
** spoiler omitted **Is there a link to his info?
EDIT: While not Golarion I find it interesting at how GRRM has handled Homosexuality in Westeros and the rest of the Known World of ASoI&F. That is it is openly accepted and expected.
Apparently he has been confirmed as saying a lot of things on this subject. A lot of which was supposedly collected in Night's Watch.
** spoiler omitted **...
You miss understood what that meant.
Also all your examples are Nobles. Which would be expected to have a Hetero Partner simply for Lineage's Sake. Yes the Night's Watch is more Don't Ask, Don't Tell. BUT if you look throughout ALL of GRRM's Books there are a lot of examples. Most of which are Smallfolk that are openly accepted. Most nobles would end up with a Wife/Husband then have a Lover on the side.
It's in The Great Beyond. He wrote it.Where'd you get most of that information? Like, I've never even heard of Shadow Absalom.And, adding to that list for those that complete the AP, Ameiko Kaijitsu :)I'd also add:
Lady Satarai-Gongen the ruler of Kwanlai (half-celestial tengu Cleric 14)
Argrinyxia the Shifting Lady of Ebon Scales, ruler of Shadow Absalom (yeah sure she's evil, and a great wyrm shadow dragon with sorcerer levels, but for completeness sake, I figured we could add her)
Sultana A’shadieeyah bint Khalid ruler of the Shaitan genies of Elemental Earth
Dirimalia VI, ruler of the fire mephits of Elemental Flame
Ah okay. I have that but I don't remember anything on Shadow Absalom. I'll have to read that again.
** spoiler omitted **Is there a link to his info?
EDIT: While not Golarion I find it interesting at how GRRM has handled Homosexuality in Westeros and the rest of the Known World of ASoI&F. That is it is openly accepted and expected.
Apparently he has been confirmed as saying a lot of things on this subject. A lot of which was supposedly collected in Night's Watch.
** spoiler omitted **...
You miss understood what that meant.
Also all your examples are Nobles. Which would be expected to have a Hetero Partner simply for Lineage's Sake. Yes the Night's Watch is more Don't Ask, Don't Tell. BUT if you look throughout ALL of GRRM's Books there are a lot of examples. Most of which are Smallfolk that are openly accepted. Most nobles would end up with a Wife/Husband then have a Lover on the side.
Err...I have read the books like three times...There is very very little emphasis on the smallfolk in the books, outside of how horribly in general they are treated. I recall one reference for a pair of characters in the Nightwatch (who are not open), a few references to male prostitutes, and maybe 5-6 nobles/rich people. and the behavior of certain characters is a point of derison for others. I doubt GRRM gave any real thought to homosexuality in writing the book, other than a few plot points (Someone needs to put out the Werthead signal).
You do realize that George R.R. Martin has written a LOT of books outside the planned ASoI&F Heptalogy right... And that isn't taking into account the numerous ASoI&F Related books he has Edited and "Co-Wrote".
Three Dunk and Egg stories and a upcoming story in a anthology (plus the maps and world book) are the only ASOIF material he has written. He has written tons of other books, but his science fiction stuff and superhero stuff is not set in the same universe, nor are his horror books linked. There might be a couple of throwaways nods to earlier books.
(there is some random god that gets mentioned, as an in-joke, in unrelated books).
But at this point, it's probably better to discuss this further in another thread than to further derail this thread.
So for folks looking for information for transgendered characters in Golarion, Chronicles of the Righteous, now. Specifically the entry for Arshea and to just a bit of a lesser extent Lymnieris. :)
Yeah, I know a bunch of people, including myself, waiting for the 29th.
And then there's the ones who's bummed out about it not showing up in their downloads before the weekend. :(
I never should have told that person the subscriptions pretty much always go out in less than a week - I've not had it posted until the next week for two months in a row after that now.
While I have nothing against homosexuality, most of the time I've seen it presented has been as a trope, to further connect an already defined archetype.
So this woman is athletic, confident, and brave; she must be a lesbian.
This man is hygienic, sly, and charming; he just must be gay.
These characters are more often homosexual in the fantasy that I've seen. And homosexuals generally fall in line with those archetypes.
And while it's fine to go with stereotypes, it hardly breaks any barriers, it's already cliche.
Not all women who are warriors or rulers are lesbians, not all lesbians are rulers or warriors.
I kinda agree with Ragnarok, I wanna see a handsome, manly, tough paladin or soldier being a gay for once, not all sissy boys that like flowers and butterflies.
Lesbians are mostly not a problem they get much of every table, being beautiful and stout at the same time.
EDIT: I would also love to see Gay Werewolves, Lizardfolk, Orcs and other such humanoids, just for the mix of it. Maybe if anti's see a gay orc they will be less offensive ;-)
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I kinda agree with Ragnarok, I wanna see a handsome, manly, tough paladin or soldier being a gay for once, not all sissy boys that like flowers and butterflies.
Check out The Redemption Engine in April for all your manly homosexual needs. :) Or, if you want more of a sketchy scoundrel rogue type, read Tim Pratt's City of the Fallen Sky. Skivver is anything but a sissy!
And I know you said you're tired of rad lesbians, but I also need to point out that we've got a pair of rad lesbian crusaders coming up in the web fiction in October. (And, of course, in the Wrath of the Righteous AP!)
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Just as a question, has there been a significant LBGT evildoer/BBEG other than Queen Ileosa?Jadrenka and Marislova have the potential to be coupled Lesbian Big Bads if you play them wrong (or cannibalize them for another adventure!).
I understand there are ones I could change, but that just feeds the same arguments for why Paizo is including as many canon ones as it is to show they exist. I really want to see if there are more canon ones not simply maybes for now. I couldn't think of any besides Ileosa.
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I understand there are ones I could change, but that just feeds the same arguments for why Paizo is including as many canon ones as it is to show they exist. I really want to see if there are more canon ones not simply maybes for now. I couldn't think of any besides Ileosa.Just as a question, has there been a significant LBGT evildoer/BBEG other than Queen Ileosa?Jadrenka and Marislova have the potential to be coupled Lesbian Big Bads if you play them wrong (or cannibalize them for another adventure!).
Oh, Jadrenka is certainly Evil (Lawful Evil, to be exact) and that's going to naturally drag Marislova to the darker side of CN. She's also been shown to be jealous and possessive, and basically if you play her poorly as PCs (not as the DM), she'll be the Big Bad of the scenario.
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Oh, Jadrenka is certainly Evil (Lawful Evil, to be exact) and that's going to naturally drag Marislova to the darker side of CN. She's also been shown to be jealous and possessive, and basically if you play her poorly as PCs (not as the DM), she'll be the Big Bad of the scenario.I understand there are ones I could change, but that just feeds the same arguments for why Paizo is including as many canon ones as it is to show they exist. I really want to see if there are more canon ones not simply maybes for now. I couldn't think of any besides Ileosa.Just as a question, has there been a significant LBGT evildoer/BBEG other than Queen Ileosa?Jadrenka and Marislova have the potential to be coupled Lesbian Big Bads if you play them wrong (or cannibalize them for another adventure!).
I guess I just don't equate her with the same level of being the bad guy, since in reality whether or not you attack her and kill her or leave her alone she really isn't the main antagonist and is really there to be a neutral NPC. Unless your party goes all murder-hobo on the module and starts indiscriminately killing everything in site.
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If you extend that question to pre-Pathfinder Paizo work:
Not a featured BBEG, but Xinivrae was introduced as one of the four big name succubi demon lords. She pursued women exclusively.
I might be reading a bit into it, but I'm pretty sure Adimarchus, the BBEG of Shackled City was gay or bisexual. Had a particularly tragic backstory as well, which is probably why there was so much discussion about possible redemption routes for him compared to most other AP BBEG's.
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I also need to point out that we've got a pair of rad lesbian crusaders coming up in the web fiction in October. (And, of course, in the Wrath of the Righteous AP!)
1. @#$% YES.
2. Admittedly the first thing that comes to mind when reading "rad lesbian crusaders" is a Joan of Arc/Iomedae-looking woman in full plate doing sick ollies on the skate ramp.
Alternately, Kyra jumping a bike over five slave-filled wagons while dropping flame strikes on the gnolls driving them.
[/childofthe80's-90's]
I have a Gay Pirate Captain in the Module I was writing. Ugly, Foul-Tempered, though still fairly nice if you go a certain route.
Not the FGG (Foppish Gay Guy) you typically see. And it even had a Lesbian Half-Orc Chieftain.
@Mikaze: I am so glad I wasn't the only one who thought something like that. Though I can see Kyra as more of a Parkour Practitioner...
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^^^^^ Dammit that Kyra+Parkour idea just spawned a character I want to use now...
And it even had a Lesbian Half-Orc Chieftain.
You too! ;)
There's actually some built-in support for this with the Crossed Soul belief among Belkzen's orc tribes, especially with with female orcs believed to be such souls typically taking wives of their own. That little detail has been sitting out there since Orcs of Golarion, but I don't know if anything has evern been done with it officially.
I kinda agree with Ragnarok, I wanna see a handsome, manly, tough paladin or soldier being a gay for once, not all sissy boys that like flowers and butterflies.Check out The Redemption Engine in April for all your manly homosexual needs. :) Or, if you want more of a sketchy scoundrel rogue type, read Tim Pratt's City of the Fallen Sky. Skivver is anything but a sissy!
And I know you said you're tired of rad lesbians, but I also need to point out that we've got a pair of rad lesbian crusaders coming up in the web fiction in October. (And, of course, in the Wrath of the Righteous AP!)
As for Kyra being badass... your description doesn't sound that different from the Dark Markets cover. :p
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As for Kyra being badass... your description doesn't sound that different from the Dark Markets cover. :p
Poor little gnoll, out walkin' his doggies, even respecting the local leash ordinance and with little baggies to pick up after them!
Why you be hatin' Kyra? Why?
Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).
Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
Scary souls share scary thoughts...
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Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
To which I'd reply:
1) If they can't make those kind of minor changes to NPC relationships/backstorys on the fly, I'd say their game is gonna suffer much bigger issues.
2) Yep, the good old days, where all women warriors had a penalty to Strength, female depictions in art were designed exclusively for the male gamers gaze, and half the female NPCs were some variety of whore/prostitute or female-hookup-not-yet-Freezered. Bleh. :(
and c) F##* 'em (definitely not literally).
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Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
To which I'd reply:
1) If they can't make those kind of minor changes to NPC relationships/backstorys on the fly, I'd say their game is gonna suffer much bigger issues.
2) Yep, the good old days, where all women warriors had a penalty to Strength, female depictions in art were designed exclusively for the male gamers gaze, and half the female NPCs were some variety of whore/prostitute or female-hookup-not-yet-Freezered. Bleh. :(
and c) F*!~ 'em (definitely not literally).
I remember at least one edition of the AD&D Player's Handbook had either no or almost no illustrations of women in it.
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I remember at least one edition of the AD&D Player's Handbook had either no or almost no illustrations of women in it.Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
To which I'd reply:
1) If they can't make those kind of minor changes to NPC relationships/backstorys on the fly, I'd say their game is gonna suffer much bigger issues.
2) Yep, the good old days, where all women warriors had a penalty to Strength, female depictions in art were designed exclusively for the male gamers gaze, and half the female NPCs were some variety of whore/prostitute or female-hookup-not-yet-Freezered. Bleh. :(
and c) F*!~ 'em (definitely not literally).
Wow.
That kind of players guide is unappealing both as an egalitarian and as a pervert.
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Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
To which I'd reply:
1) If they can't make those kind of minor changes to NPC relationships/backstorys on the fly, I'd say their game is gonna suffer much bigger issues.
2) Yep, the good old days, where all women warriors had a penalty to Strength, female depictions in art were designed exclusively for the male gamers gaze, and half the female NPCs were some variety of whore/prostitute or female-hookup-not-yet-Freezered. Bleh. :(
and c) F@*# 'em (definitely not literally).
I for one miss the old Random Harlot Generator table and think removing it moves the wrong way. I'd rather just add in a Random Gigolo Generator beside it so you can see if you've found a Genial Gigolo, a Pampered Catamite, a Typical Rent Boy, or perhaps an Aging Roue looking to procure the services of someone on either table.
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I for one miss the old Random Harlot Generator table and think removing it moves the wrong way. I'd rather just add in a Random Gigolo Generator beside it so you can see if you've found a Genial Gigolo, a Pampered Catamite, a Typical Rent Boy, or perhaps an Aging Roue looking to procure the services of someone on either table.Indeed, and that implanted diversity is what pisses off some players and dms that don't want that in their games, or they want adventures to be of the old style (hetero if it comes up, no-homo).Sebastian: nothing posted by actual Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, James Sutter, et al) has lead me to believe that gay iconics are all about the marketing or about shock value or whatnot.
It seems to be an honest desire to promote diversity.
To which I'd reply:
1) If they can't make those kind of minor changes to NPC relationships/backstorys on the fly, I'd say their game is gonna suffer much bigger issues.
2) Yep, the good old days, where all women warriors had a penalty to Strength, female depictions in art were designed exclusively for the male gamers gaze, and half the female NPCs were some variety of whore/prostitute or female-hookup-not-yet-Freezered. Bleh. :(
and c) F@*# 'em (definitely not literally).
A Discreet Luggage-Lifter, mayhap?
(yeah, I'm bad)