I'm just wondering if, as of yet, there are plans to take the pathfinder system to the epic level. The existing 3.5 epic system is a real mess, and I'd like to see pathfinder start completely from scratch. After all, I'd like a chance to put all of those neat capstone abilities to use.....
Thoughts/feelings/flames?
Creative Director
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I'm just wondering if, as of yet, there are plans to take the pathfinder system to the epic level. The existing 3.5 epic system is a real mess, and I'd like to see pathfinder start completely from scratch. After all, I'd like a chance to put all of those neat capstone abilities to use.....
Thoughts/feelings/flames?
I have an epic adventure path brewing in my head, but it'll be a while before we do something with it in Pathifnder. I'm guessing, at minimum, 3 years. If there's a big enough demand/outcry for an epic Adventure Path or an epic Pathfinder Module before then, of course, that'll change.
Put me down for a preorder.
Thoth-Amon
I would also very much like to see that!!!
Best way to do it would be to come out with a Epic Handbook, say in two or three years, then start a path that begins at level 15 and ends at around level 30+. This way you have a rules system and then showcase not only the new system but how charactes/monsters slip into epic stats smoothly. Just my two coppers but thats how I'd do it.
I have an epic adventure path brewing in my head, but it'll be a while before we do something with it in Pathifnder. I'm guessing, at minimum, 3 years. If there's a big enough demand/outcry for an epic Adventure Path or an epic Pathfinder Module before then, of course, that'll change.I'm just wondering if, as of yet, there are plans to take the pathfinder system to the epic level. The existing 3.5 epic system is a real mess, and I'd like to see pathfinder start completely from scratch. After all, I'd like a chance to put all of those neat capstone abilities to use.....
Thoughts/feelings/flames?
its been a few years since this post, wondering if we have word from paizo dev team if there is anything in the works? getting close to the end of running my players through rise of the runelords, /hope*
I have an epic adventure path brewing in my head, but it'll be a while before we do something with it in Pathifnder. I'm guessing, at minimum, 3 years. If there's a big enough demand/outcry for an epic Adventure Path or an epic Pathfinder Module before then, of course, that'll change.I'm just wondering if, as of yet, there are plans to take the pathfinder system to the epic level. The existing 3.5 epic system is a real mess, and I'd like to see pathfinder start completely from scratch. After all, I'd like a chance to put all of those neat capstone abilities to use.....
Thoughts/feelings/flames?
Big enough? ;-)
Anyway, it has been three years now. And there will be a very special anniversary edition of Rise of the Runelords in a while.
If that epic AP builds on RotRL, it would make sense to start it relatively close to the release of that anniversary edition (as far as it's possible to put it into schedule)
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Creative Director
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I have an epic adventure path brewing in my head, but it'll be a while before we do something with it in Pathifnder. I'm guessing, at minimum, 3 years. If there's a big enough demand/outcry for an epic Adventure Path or an epic Pathfinder Module before then, of course, that'll change.I'm just wondering if, as of yet, there are plans to take the pathfinder system to the epic level. The existing 3.5 epic system is a real mess, and I'd like to see pathfinder start completely from scratch. After all, I'd like a chance to put all of those neat capstone abilities to use.....
Thoughts/feelings/flames?
Big enough? ;-)
Anyway, it has been three years now. And there will be a very special anniversary edition of Rise of the Runelords in a while.
If that epic AP builds on RotRL, it would make sense to start it relatively close to the release of that anniversary edition (as far as it's possible to put it into schedule)
It has indeed been three years... but it took longer than three years to get Jade Regent off the ground. And Jade Regent's easier to do than a Mythic AP would be... so maybe ask again in 3 more years?
Said epic AP is still rattling around in my head, though.
And Jade Regent's easier to do than a Mythic AP would be... so maybe ask again in 3 more years?Said epic AP is still rattling around in my head, though.
I'll set my stopwatch.
I would love an epic Ap,and maybe an prequel to it first so that it could be run from scratch to the epic levels.
Epic, mythic, Chuck Norris, I don`t care. I want it! :)
Pretty much every single AP we've done so far can serve as a prequel to a mythic adventure.I would love an epic Ap,and maybe an prequel to it first so that it could be run from scratch to the epic levels.
Right! As seen by the "continuing the campaign" sidebars in the more recent adventure paths. Personally, I'm hoping it's not three more years; I'm thinking 2013 might be when the ball gets rolling, and I'm guessing it'll have a longer than usual development and playtest period.
Well, I'm *hoping* for a long playtest period; it would be great to get in on it. After all, I've been playtesting the 3.5e ELH* since late 2006 :)
Not a mistake - there was a 3.5 update for the ELH.
I have an epic adventure path brewing in my head, but it'll be a while before we do something with it in Pathifnder. I'm guessing, at minimum, 3 years. If there's a big enough demand/outcry for an epic Adventure Path or an epic Pathfinder Module before then, of course, that'll change.
***
It has indeed been three years... but it took longer than three years to get Jade Regent off the ground. And Jade Regent's easier to do than a Mythic AP would be... so maybe ask again in 3 more years?
That would be long after I have probably moved again and lost my current group, which has been devouring paizo modules as fast as possible. Any chance we could shave a couple years off that time frame if we all baked you a cake or something? :D
Pretty much every single AP we've done so far can serve as a prequel to a mythic adventure.
We would probably have a party made out of all-stars from several adventure paths. Possibly multiple bad-ass cohorts, too.
...
You know, you could have an epic module revisit most or all of the locations used in previous modules, plus more. Speedy travel is no big thing at high levels, after all. Campaign traits could also include involvement in past events so that new characters could be associated with certain locations. Just a thought.
Pretty much every single AP we've done so far can serve as a prequel to a mythic adventure.I would love an epic Ap,and maybe an prequel to it first so that it could be run from scratch to the epic levels.
Right! As seen by the "continuing the campaign" sidebars in the more recent adventure paths. Personally, I'm hoping it's not three more years; I'm thinking 2013 might be when the ball gets rolling, and I'm guessing it'll have a longer than usual development and playtest period.
Well, I'm *hoping* for a long playtest period; it would be great to get in on it. After all, I've been playtesting the 3.5e ELH* since late 2006 :)
Not a mistake - there was a 3.5 update for the ELH.
I don't recall hearing about a 3.5E update for the ELH. The epic level rules in 3E were terrible - that much I do remember. I guess it would have been interesting to see WotC do an update if for no other reason, at least to observe whether they can improve on their previous work.
If Paizo does do supra-20th level rules, I hope they do not take the Epic Level Handbook as the baseline and start from scratch instead. Assuming supra-20th level rules could be done well, I would be interested in them.
My list of "dos and don'ts" for supra-20th level rules:
- Do have a level cap (e.g. level 30)/don't attempt an indefinite progression
- Do have higher spell levels/don't have a special system for 'epic' spells
- Do provide guidelines for high level adventures (the planes would be particularly suitable)/don't present locations such as the city of Union that are boring and where even 'mundane' people are of extremely high-level
- Do provide unique and interesting high-level features for each class/don't base a high-level progression on feats or other 'generic' options
- Do try to continue pre-20th level progressions beyond 20th level/don't try to suddenly cap, change or stop these progressions (at least where possible - I recognize that it may be necessary in some instances)
- Do provide statistics for demon princes, dukes of hell and similar creatures that are appropriate challenges for supra-20th level characters/don't make these reasonably defeat-able by sub-20th level characters if you go to the trouble of making supra-20th level rules
- Do provide guidelines or perhaps even rules for characters to thwart gods/don't make gods into merely powerful monsters that can be defeated in a fair fight by supra-20th level characters
The list could go on, but respecting the above would be a very good start.
I have an epic adventure path brewing in my head, but it'll be a while before we do something with it in Pathifnder. I'm guessing, at minimum, 3 years. If there's a big enough demand/outcry for an epic Adventure Path or an epic Pathfinder Module before then, of course, that'll change.I'm just wondering if, as of yet, there are plans to take the pathfinder system to the epic level. The existing 3.5 epic system is a real mess, and I'd like to see pathfinder start completely from scratch. After all, I'd like a chance to put all of those neat capstone abilities to use.....
Thoughts/feelings/flames?
Put me on the list of folks that would love to see that as well. However I hear patience is a virtue... Is it ready yet?!?!?
If Paizo does do supra-20th level rules, I hope they do not take the Epic Level Handbook as the baseline and start from scratch instead. Assuming supra-20th level rules could be done well, I would be interested in them. SNIP lots of other good stuff
I personally vote for a level cap at 36 myself.
If Paizo does do supra-20th level rules, I hope they do not take the Epic Level Handbook as the baseline and start from scratch instead. Assuming supra-20th level rules could be done well, I would be interested in them. SNIP lots of other good stuffI personally vote for a level cap at 36 myself.
That certainly sounds reasonable to me and definitely has some tradition to back it up! Level 30 is also reasonable and has some tradition (from DM's Option: High Level Campaigns in AD&D 2E). Level 25, like that in Arcana Unearthed, on the other hand, would seem to be too small an increase to justify a new book. On the other hand, going above level 40, would probably be going too far - I am skeptical about the possibility of doing supra-20th level rules justice if they went beyond that.
Well, that leaves my preferred level range for a high-level book somewhere between levels 30 and 40 inclusive. The mid-point would be 35, so given the RPG legacy, level 36 seems like the best choice for the final limit.
I don't recall hearing about a 3.5E update for the ELH. The epic level rules in 3E were terrible - that much I do remember. I guess it would have been interesting to see WotC do an update if for no other reason, at least to observe whether they can improve on their previous work.her they can improve on their previous work.That's because there never was one, just a section on the ELH in the 3.0/3.5 conversion guide, mainly on converting the monsters in it to the new format. At that point, WOTC essentially washed it's hands of it doing nothing further aside adding the base material to the SRD.
I was responding to gbonehead, who said he was playtesting it. Essentially, a roleplaying club I was part of at one of my previous universities owned every D&D book from 3e/3.5e, so I can say with reasonable certainty that a 3.5E Epic Level Handbook was never published, but I guess the club could have missed a book - or they may have just decided that it was not worth it after they saw the 3e version... ;)
I'd almost rather have a completely new system created for Epic levels. The current one bogs down terribly after level 12 so continuing on would just be insane. I hope a new ELH (if Paizo creates one) spends the first part of the book converting higher level powers over and just plain throwing out the useless lower level ones. Then you can just start at E1 and play from there.
I have to agree with Mnemaxa on the no level cap.
I'm not a big fan of premade adventures so seeing books for that wouldn't interest me nearly as much as the actual rule set. Epic abilities, feats, and spells (that don't work off seeds) would be a definite plus. A bestiary with epic level monsters would also be a must, even if some are just a few upgraded versions of whats in the other bestiaries.
It would also be nice for the feel of the game to seem epic so feats and abilities almost seem to have a god like quality to them such as a new stackable trait that can't be gained until higher levels. Kind of like how dodge stacks.
If the book that gets put out is as good as the core book then it will be worth the wait.
The game does not bog down past lvl 12! I have played several campaigns past level 18 and none of them has had any bogging down. Combat was resolved even faster then in mid levels, unless it was well prepared, in which case it took long, but it was awesome fun.
It does for my group. We rarely play past level 15 because one battle takes up most of the night. Maybe it's just us.
A level cap is absolutely essential if supra-20th level rules are to be well executed. Consider that adding 20 levels would equate to doubling the number of levels available in the core rules. Do you really think core rules would work well if they had no level cap? They would not. Even setting the level cap too high would strain the book, as the density of interesting powers/monsters/etc. per level would have to decrease and the book would be spread too thin. I am skeptical that going beyond level 40 could be done in one book without the deleterious effects I have mentioned above becoming manifest.
Absence of a level cap would mean that there could be no highly-interesting custom-designed abilities for each character class or at least that they would not be available beyond a certain level (which would thus effectively be the level cap for a unique progression anyway). A no-level cap system would have to be based on generic progressions, such as feats, which are simply not as interesting as hand-crafted abilities. Even such a system, though, would run out of feats to assign beyond a certain level, though I suppose, in theory, one could always create/publish more.
In the quality versus quantity per level tradeoff, I am hoping for quality. That cannot be achieved unless the rules avoid the false quest for an infinite progression that simply cannot be done well. An unlimited progression in a limited book space is not a wise combination.
WANT!!!!!!!!!
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+1 to both Turbo Dragons and Epic Content.
Turbo template, anyone wants to take a shot at one of those ?
I think it's a dragon that turns into a car when you hit him with a fireball or a scorching ray, and back into a dragon when you hit the car with a Frost Bomb or a Cone of Cold.
I think it's a dragon that turns into a car when you hit him with a fireball or a scorching ray, and back into a dragon when you hit the car with a Frost Bomb or a Cone of Cold.
+1 for beating me to the obscure Turbo Teen reference.
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THE CREATION CRUSADE
Where do all the high-level PCs go?
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“Greetings all, and welcome. I trust you’ve had the opportunity to introduce yourselves to those around you, compare yourselves to your new peers. Rest assured that you are all quite competent at the careers you have chosen for yourselves, or you would not have been invited here to begin with.
“Your invitation came because you have reached the pinnacle of your career, and you are wondering what to do next. You are heroes, and the idea of becoming conquering warlords, money-grubbing merchants, wagemages, and temple-cleaning preachers did not sit well with you. No, for you the field of battle against a proper foe, magic wielded in hands that can save or slay, cunning to defeat a foe before they know they have been challenged.
“Well, if challenges is what you seek, you have very much come to the right place. Welcome to the Creation Crusade.
“A lofty title, is it not? The Creation Crusade. I see you grinning. I laughed when I heard it too. It is extremely pretentious.
“You will notice that I am not laughing now.”
Silence falls uncomfortably, heroes shift restlessly.
“It was named the Creation Crusade because that is what it means. If you join with us, you are not fighting on behalf of a god, a world, an ideal. You are fighting for the sake of Creation itself.
“Creation is vast. Vaster then the multiverses you came from. Vaster then the way a cosmos is arranged, how gods pick and choose their homes, how the elements arrange themselves. Creation is all these things, and to join with us is to fight on behalf of all these things.
“We do not deal with petty tyrants, grubbing merchants, greedy kings and hungry warlords here. We do not pick sides in squabbles between nobles, guilds, and gods. We fight here on behalf of Creation itself.
“A moment of history, if you will.
A hologram pops up, thirty feet high, a blue-white world, familiar yet not, unfamiliar to anyone in the audience. It draws back from the viewers, showing that it is in orbit around a colossal world banded red, white and orange, and is effectively a moon of this greater world. Yet around the blue orb hang moons of its own, and one of those, dead black in hue, zooms in closer.
“This world was the start of the Creation Crusade, and this moon was the catalyst. The moon was named Skulos, for a god of death and undeath some of you may be aware of, most of you not, but I am sure you know the kind of entity I speak of.
“Long ago, this moon was a planet of its own, and it was conquered by the undead. Conquered absolutely and in toto. Every living thing on this world was put to death. Forests withered, seas evaporated, the very fires of the world banked and went cold, the spirits of the land screamed and died…and every single sentient lifeform was raised again as undead under the pitiless eyes of the Dark Cardinals who commanded them.
“The gods cursed this realm, threw it into a place between worlds, frozen out of time, unable to interact with the mortal realm. But the power of these lichlords was vast, their patience great…and their workforce untiring and vast.”
The view of the dark moon sweeps in, past clouds of black dust, sparkling with negative energy. They move like oil across the world, for there is no wind, and it is obvious there is little to no light.
“They made the entire world into a shrine to their dark masters. Uncounted monuments they raised to the darkest of powers, uncaring of their exile.” Into view now come monuments, the least of them a thousand feet tall, some a mile or more. In every direction they can be seen, extending out past the horizon, sweeping past as the view scrolled by at great speed.
They were everywhere. Whole mountains have been leveled, great wounds ripped into the skin of the world, just to supply the stone for these monuments to evil and death triumphant.
“And when their monuments were done, they worked a great magic, a power that would hide their movements from the gods for all time. Under cover of this massive spell, they erected deathgates, massive portals to other worlds, other places in time and space.”
The view comes to this arch, and hackles rise despite themselves at the pure evil that radiates from even this illusionary construction, runes blacker then obsidian gleaming upon that stone, wrenching and tearing open time and space to a distant location.
“Then, the twelve Dark Cardinals took their armies of tens of millions of undead each, and ventured out to new, living worlds.”
And the view drew back, to see the ground moving. Moving with the forces of undead marching in lockstep, millions of unliving feet hitting the ground in perfect synchronicity, absolute coordination to a single will. They poured into the swirling void within the gates at a constant pace, a river of undead two thousand corpses across, and among them were the undead forms of giants, dragons, monsters and beasts, all enslaved, all mere fodder for the massive army.
And the view drew back. And back. And back yet again. It spun slowly as strangled gasps arose from the crowd.
For the ground for at least ten miles around was moving. Moving with the forces of an army of undead one hundred million strong.
Skulos receded, shrank to a single point of black light in the middle of a globe of white.
“Twelve deathgates were found upon Skulos. To twelve worlds they went, and twelve more worlds died.” A dozen beautiful worlds, of blue and green and white and red and brown, spiraled around that black point, and died as a black tide stole across them, unstoppable, invincible.
“Each world was made once more into a shrine world to the powers of Death. Each new Dark Cardinal raised his army from the slain. Their conqueror remained behind to hold his charge, and dispatched his underlings through new Death Gates, to claim worlds of their own.”
The dead worlds shrank, became points of violet arrayed around the original black point, and suddenly lines of color exploded again out from them, and suddenly a hundred more worlds were decaying, rotting, blackening, dying before them. Indigo dots arrayed themselves around the violet, winking with darkness.
“This is the Cancer of Death, a scourge upon Creation, that consumes life and leaves nothing behind,” the narrator’s quiet voice went on. More lines of light extended out, a thousand worlds winked into existence and died, to soft moans of horror from the wisest in the audience, a ring of dead blue around the indigo, and then again the lines lanced out, worlds too numerous to count were consumed, and died to form an unhealthy green ring around this core.
More lines extended out into the quiet of the watchers. Worlds blinked on, and died, one by one, and foul yellow dots began to spread here and there all around that vast globe of undeath.
“There have been four complete generations of the Cancer of Death, and the fifth wave is occurring as we speak. Now, these are undead, and their patience is great…we estimate the first wave occurred over three thousand years ago. Even a billion undead take time to transform an entire world into a shrine world. From each invested world, four to twelve gates lead to other living worlds, and behind them they leave a Dark Cardinal who is unchallenged commander of a dead world entire, surrounded by the greatest champions of the slain world. He sends out those who seek his position to claim their own worlds, and the Cancer of Death continues.”
A white light started at the very core of that sphere, and extended out in a single line. It leapt slowly from world to world, and behind them, worlds turned white and clean. Small lights grew off each world, extending down the lines to the side, tracking and following them, whilst the cleansed worlds extended down to the very fringes, stopped the advance to the yellow, backtracked, and worked their way down the next line that had been scouted.
“The First Army of the Creation Crusade liberates worlds that have fallen from the undead.”
Another holo to the side winked on.
There was a black world, with a wedge of white burning upon it, across it. The view zoomed in, and explosions and blasts of fire and blazing positive energy were visible at distances. Now they could see a line of burning white flame miles long, where black and white came together.
The statues were moving. Thousand foot constructs were striding across plains full of uncounted undead. Monsters a thousand years dead lumbered to battle, decaying skin over gleaming black bone. Dead nations conscripted to serve marched to war.
Facing them, living men.
A constant lash of explosive magic tore out into the armies of undead, constantly obliterating them. A wall of warriors moving with incredible energy and speed, bearing gleaming weapons all ablaze, destroyed everything close to them with relentless power. Mages gathered over a great cannon, a dozen spells were invoked, and a raging line of fire reached out half a league and detonated on the chest of a walking statue of a reaper, blowing it into molten rock that rained down on and buried thousands of undead as it fell.
With a shuddering groan that nearly killed those listening, part of the landscape itself arose, a skull larger then some of the constructs hove itself out of the land itself…a mighty land spirit, now undead and slaved to a distant master. Bones of stone and ash rose from the earth, towering over everything, head in the clouds of roiling blackness far above as it tore itself from the screaming land and turned empty eyes upon the puny force of attackers far below.
A single spellcaster with a crystalline staff invoked a spell that flared with light so pure that those watching gasped and covered their eyes. The Light of Heaven reached out in a needle of glory, and drove into the undead land spirit, as irresistible as hope.
A great ball of Light erupted outwards, sweeping away millions of undead, tearing apart the land spirit into purified earth that tumbled and fell back to the ground, vanishing like drops of water back into soil and stone seared purest white by the power unleashed there.
Undaunted by its fall, the unstopping armies of undead and the thousands of tribute statues kept advancing on the line of battle.
The view faded away, leaving the shocked and stunned members of the audience looking on in awe and fear. They had battled mighty foes, powerful enemies…but nothing had prepared them for a battle that looked like that, like something the gods themselves might be waging.
“It takes about a year for the First Army to claim a world invested by the Cancer of Death. It takes the undead anywhere from half a millennium to a millennium to fully invest a world, depending upon how populated it was before their arrival. More undead hands speeds up the job.
“The next wave of the Cancer of Death will invest more then fifty thousand worlds. We will never, ever catch them at this rate.”
There was dead silence in the room as this point sank home.
“This, then, is why you are here.” The gentle white halos continued to crawl out down the lines of the Cancer, extending out in an ever-increasing circle of yellows. “The greatest scouts and rogues in Creation have been dispatched with one purpose; finding out where the Dead Cancer has been, and where it is going. From those worlds, we recruit its champions, those who might have the power to defy what is coming, perhaps to take control of their worlds and ready them to defy the annihilation that is coming.
“It is from those worlds that we have chosen you.”
A great number of heroes swallowed tightly in the darkness, watching as here and there the haloes of white reached the ends of their lines, and leapt out to worlds still golden instead of pus. Those worlds enlarged, spun in the air, and sobbing voices murmured names under their breaths as they recognized their own worlds.
“We do not know how long it will be before the Dead Cancers can come to your worlds. We only know that upon their worlds, the construction of Dead Gates has begun. It will take time to finish them. We can sabotage them, we can distract the undead from their work, but at some time, they will finish them, they will advance to their new worlds, and unless those people are ready for what comes, that world will die, and be offered as a tribute to death.”
The lights rose up again, spotlighting the speaker on the stage, looking out at them all.
“Some of you may choose to disbelieve what I have said. Such things cannot be possible, you think.
“I did not show you a recreation of a battle for a dead world.” He turned and pointed very calmly behind himself. “You are aboard the Starcraft Carrier Dark Phoenix. You can go on deck, right through that door, and watch that battle taking place less then a league away.”
Heroes choked in horror at being so close to a conflict of that size.
“By recruiting from worlds that are to be invaded, we have formed a First Army, its Second Legion…and a Third Legion is being formed.” A second line of burning white began to slowly progress down a different thread. “Taking a shrine world is relatively easy next to taking a nexus world still thick with the undead, but the battle must be fought. Each nexus world is a handful of worlds saved from death, as well as a world reclaimed.”
He paused significantly, looking them all over. They looked back, numbed by the scope of what he was showing them.
“And, of course, there are rewards.”
And that perked everyone up.
“The undead hold the wealth of entire worlds, nations, civilizations. That wealth reclaimed is dispersed among those who do battle. It is traded across Creation for the supplies needed to continue this fight.
“There are mighty enemies among them in numbers you will never run out of. If you seek to grow in power, we can indulge you for the next millennium or more.
“And when the time comes when you say ‘enough’, we leave behind entire worlds to be reclaimed, to be reseeded with life. Refugees from across Creation are being settled onto these worlds, and they are being turned into training facilities, forgeworlds, supply worlds for the Crusade.” White worlds winked on and off, turning blue and green and gold as they did so. “They will need protectors, teachers, defenders…they will need those who have been there and know the scale of what they face to teach them and send them to take up the fight.
“The Dead Cancer grows and grows. We have no choice whatsoever but to grow if we are to follow its trail, cut off its heads, and char the stumps clean. By any estimation, we will need a minimum of Twenty Legions of the First Army just to stay even with their spread. We will need more if we wish to gain ground upon it.”
A hand was raised among the audience. “Pardon my asking, Master Thase, but you make reference to Legions…of the First Army. Is there a Second Army somewhere?”
“Ah.” The dark-haired magos tipped up his long-brimmed hat, deep-set eyes regarding the speaker. “There are Twelve Armies in the Creation Crusade.”
A babble of voices arose at that announcement. “And, of course you wish to know why they are not deployed against the undead.” His voice was little more then a whisper, but the grimness behind it returned everyone to a dread anticipation.
He held out his hand, and the illusion of the spread of the Dead Cancer shrank, and was shoved aside.
And eleven more spheres of colors and patterns hove into place around it.
A few were nested spheres. Some were waves, increasing as they spread. Some were random eruptions here, there, everywhere, like postules or blisters on reality, linked only by their hues. Some overlapped here and there, many did not.
“We are the Creation Crusade, and Creation is vast, vaster then infinity. And so, inside Creation, there is room enough for far more then one Cancer to be spreading.”
Strangled gasps sounded from the audience. They had just been introduced to the concept of an undead army so vast it swallowed worlds…and it was but one of the threats out there?
“These are the other eleven that we know of, that our scouts have stumbled across, that we have learned through discourse with gods and angels, and traders across realities, and refugees who have come to us for succor.
“The first is the Cancer of the Fiends.” Swirling patterns extended here and there, everywhere across the panopoly of dots. “This is the act by powers of the Lower Planes to open permanent portals into the Prime Plane. Not only does this destabilize dimensional barriers, it allows the evils of many worlds to leak out and concentrate in a few, warping and tainting them. If permitted to grow, these worlds grow an increasingly fiendish presence, be it devils, daemons, or demons, and are eventually subsumed by their sponsoring entities as producers of raw souls for their realms, or they are consumed by the rifts and stolen in their entirety for the Lower Realms.” Background images of denizens of the lower realms stalking across Prime worlds that were darkening, then burning in the background, showed up everywhere.
“This Cancer is mirrored by the Axiom Cancer, and the Chaos Cancer.”
Waves of axiomatic constructs in dazzling array marched in perfect order across worlds, organizing and transforming. From the other direction, multiformed creatures, no two alike, spread change and fluidity, and worlds broke apart into constituent elements around them.
“And of course, when you get opposing Profound powers interfering on the Prime, the Eternal Cancer that binds them all erupts on the Prime.”
Demons fought devils and angels. Soul-constructs fought randomly shaped mutates. Fortress cities flew through the skies, worlds tore apart, moons were hurled as weapons, infinite armies clashed and suns died, and mortal worlds perished like ant-mounds before the fury of the conflict.
“The Second, Third and Fourth Armies array to contain the spread of Profound Forces on the Prime. It is noteworthy that Heaven will not intervene on the Prime without the prior interference of other forces, so there is no Army needed to contain them. Yet where they do intervene, it is better to see a world destroyed then turned into a source of power for Evil for eternity.”
“The Fifth and Sixth Armies fight the Aberrant Cancer, which has two known forms…the Phrenic Cancer and the Hungering Cancer.” The postules and blisters glowed and pulsed all over the place. “The Phrenic cancer works by infiltrating a world and mutating the population and native species, essentially co-opting the ecosystem of a planet and making it their own. It is run by cerebrovores of various kinds, all Aberrant creatures whose origins lie outside of Creation.” Images of squid-headed man-things, great worms, brains with legs, floating jellyfish things, ancient fish-things with more tentacles, and other, fouler creatures all formed here. “Regardless of their specific origins, these things have common patterns. They infiltrate, they dominate mentally, they mutate the native species into slaves, and they spread, delivering worlds to their unspeakable masters Beyond Creation in an orgy of brain-death and psionic release.” Numbers of will-crushed thralls offered themselves up for the consumption by horrific entities from Outside Creation, and the watchers flinched.
“The Hungering Cancer does not seek to subsume. It consumes. The primary instrument of this is the Gargovians.” Wormlike beasts arose in illusion behind him, first little more then slugs, invading other lifeforms, turning them into raving, warped hosts, eating armies, giving birth to more warped versions of life, continuing to eat and eat everything organic, consuming forests, emptying the oceans of life, eating all that lived, until nothing was left but more raving Gargovians, at which point they turned upon one another, consuming one another and growing greater and fatter, until they loomed like mountains, and then turned upon and began to eat the world itself. Tunneling through the world like cheese, they ate it away over centuries, swelling further in size as they drank oceans dry, devoured the hearts of worlds, and ate and ate until but one Gargovian was left…and it was the size of a planet.
It swallowed moons almost daintily, and then made for the other worlds of the system, hunger clearly unmet. As its size swelled yet further, it finally grew massive enough to tear itself free of reality, and head Beyond Creation to take a place there…as food for older Gargovians or not, it was unclear.
“The task of the Sixth Army is to range across Creation, find the Gargovians where they grow, and exterminate them. Even one left alive can eventually rise to eat a planet. They are hunger incarnate, and will eat everything in Creation if they can.”
“The Seventh Army exists to stymie the Scaled Cancer. This is an Empire of Serpentfolk and lizard-men, intelligent dinosaurs and other Scalefolk. It marches across Creation, claiming new worlds and obliterating intelligent mammalian life wherever it finds it, preferably by eating it.” A wave of worlds advanced across the void. “They breed fast, they are tougher then humans are, magically adept, territorial, and savage. They are extremely dangerous.
“The Eighth Army faces the Dragon Cancer.” A multi-colored sector of the sky beckoned. “Here, Dragons hold power. Gods of mortals are interdicted. The Dragons advance from one world to the next, cut off the gods from the mortal world, and crush any mortal opposition as they take up kingdoms for themselves. Some are wise monarchs, most are despots, and some are tyrants of the grandest and cruelest sort. To live under them is to know that Dragons will ever be your masters, and the gods cannot aid you.
“The Ninth Army faces off against The One Cancer.” A solid, precise wedge of influence was tearing a path through space, solid, indomitable. “The One is a God who tolerates the existence of no other gods, and is perfectly willing to convert entire worlds, or see them put to the sword if they refuse, resettling the world with His own faithful. They are powerful, organized, they number in the trillions, and they are fanatics about their path. We don’t know what race started the drive, but all are represented here, and all races can be found in the priesthood that drives their expansion, all of them fanatical servants to the One God. In any realm He endures, He contests directly with the other gods and soon drives them away if His forces establish any foothold. He pacifies the world, organizes it, and takes the most aggressive away to form His armies of conquest.”
“Rivaling the One God is the Hive Cancer, a coalition of insectile lifeforms dominated by their Queens, opposed by the Tenth Army.” A rigid and precise pattern moved through the field. “Insect kingdoms are the personification of relentlessness. They know only food, reproduction, and expansion. When they claim worlds, they consume any opposition to their presence, turn it into a giant nest for producing billions more, and proceed onwards. While vulnerable if you kill their queens, in sheer numbers they can rival anything out there, and they are adaptable, masters of evolving their soldiers to face new threats, and unrelentingly aggressive. If they find a new world, they expand and take it, and simply do not let up until it is theirs. You must exterminate them or perish.”
A few of the druids in the audience kept their heads down, aghast at what they were seeing. It appeared that humanity and the humanoid races were not the only ones that could rage out of control of the balance Nature intended.
“The Primodial Cancer is something out of the Creation Myths, and attended by the Eleventh Army.” Massive elemental beings in strange forms, commanding armies of elementals, genies, giants, and ancient beasts long dead on other worlds, did battle to claim dominance over the land, to prove their might, or just for the fun of it. “Sometimes the gods contest with them, sometimes not, and sometimes they get bored and strike out for new places to see, worlds to reshape to their liking. They can completely disrupt divine kingdoms, and as a result, they can kill gods if the circumstances are right. Needless to say, wherever they go, mortal life tends to warp wildly or simply cease to exist.”
“The Green Cancer is the last of the known Cancers, and so the Twelfth Army contests it.” Living forests, marching trees, scuttling vines, racing thorn-creatures, fields of killing blooms grew across worlds, slaying all life that would contest with them, mammal, reptile, insect, fish. In the dark places, great mushroom forests rose, and fungus-creatures slew and turned their foes into raw material for more young. “Intelligent plantfolk destroy all forms of animal life that could be a threat to them, replacing them in the ecosystem with their own forms of life. They are as implacable as the insect folk, just as dangerous, and often can be killed only by putting an entire world to the torch. Their invasion methods are subtle, they can reproduce very quickly, and once they get rolling only massive destruction can forestall them.”
There was silence as he looked out at them all, could see them trying to grasp the overwhelming scope of what was out there.
“We expect there are at least a couple other Cancers we’ve not yet encountered. Intelligent constructs, war machines gone out of control, that slaughter worlds, strip-mine and assemble more of their own, and move on to the next world. We’re sure there’s an orc empire that crosses worlds under the red banner of war, and a goblin empire that does likewise. We’ve received hints of worlds that are set up as basically blood supplies to ruling vampire nobility, and vassal ghoul-kingdoms that live off their dead. There are at least three worlds completely in the thrall of the Dreamtime of the Fey that we know of, also.”
Master Thase rocked back and forth on his heels, hands clasped behind him, studying them all.
“A keen wit might make the observation that we qualify as a Cancer as well. I am inclined to agree, although our presence is more one of unity then invasive, which is the deciding element of the Cancers.” He indicated the map, and the lights and spreads of the many Cancers faded out, leaving bright lights winking happily behind, and others merely glowing. “Some populated worlds we control outright, perhaps thirty in all. From them, we draw the numbers that fill the standing Armies of the Crusade. Other worlds we know of, others are threatened, or might be threatened, and from them we recruit their best and their bored, come to take a step out into Creation and see the real forces that are at play.” The strong lights winked once, hundreds of them. “Our influence on them tends to be minimal, a slowly spreading web of information, mercantile interests, and heroes whose eyes are opened to the threat and working to get other parties involved. We are growing, but it should come as no surprise to the likes of you that your many worlds are a fractious lot whose rulers will do anything to not give up power and control right up until annihilation is staring them in the face, at which point it is too late.
“As we don’t have the force, the time, or the inclination to subjugate your worlds and drag them kicking and screaming into the greater reality, we recruit their best and bring them out here to open their eyes, and do what they think must be done. We also do raid nations for their populations…unlike nobles, we are perfectly aware that great heroes can arise from common men, and life under us is, if not safer, at least better informed. The worlds we reclaim from the Dead Cancer are prime ground for resettlement by both refugees and immigrants, and we’ve been populating them slowly as we can do so.”
He paused again, counting to twenty, let the shellshocked audience of great heroes attempt to regain their swagger and confidence.
“Gentlemen, Ladies, elves, dwarves, humans, gnomes, halflings, halvyr, urkhar,” he said cordially. “You are here because your world is under threat of the Dead Cancer. The First Army will not be able to get there in time to save your worlds.” The other Cancers faded away as the Dead Cancer of nested orbs swelled and took center stage. Their worlds glowed again, magnifying in twoscore glowing worlds about that pattern…none of them anywhere near the lines of conflict the First and Second Legions of that Army were proceeding along.
“You are the heroes and champions of your people. You were brought here because within you is a spark that can become a mighty flame, a storm that can change worlds.
“We have the means to set you walking the road of the Eternal, to be to the Prime Plane what great demons and devils and angels are to the Hereafter. We have a danger before you that must be faced down, or all that you know and love will perish.
“Shortly the Dead Cancer will begin infiltrating your world, whispering to the mad and the deranged, tempting those who deal with death and undeath. They will recruit the mightiest of the undead of your realm with promises of undying power and domination of worlds, and even if that does not work, once the Dark Cardinal arrives there, no undead will be able to defy its power.
“I speak for the Creation Crusade, when I say this: Will you join our efforts, or will you wait and watch your world die? How will you choose?”
A phone book-sized post.
What the..?
Why you need Epic rules:) And, of course, where do all the high level heroes get to go?
Somewhere out in the multiverse where you can't have too many high level heroes.
==Aelryinth
Why you need Epic rules:)...
Great writeup, but no.
This needs 18+ level PCs, but I don't see the need for epic in the sense of this word.
Imho Epic handbook is about continuing char development and some nerdy coolness factor (look, I can solo one-round a Pit-Fiend).
At least Wizards and Clerics are already close to gods at level 18+ and at 20 have no chance to grow any further because there simply is no potential to grow into that still fits in the game world and the basic game rules.
If Epic means more of the same old, I would say no, thanks, because doing 175 dpr instead of 123 isn't epic at all.
Long story short, in order for epic to be epic you basically need a new game.
Why you need Epic rules:)...Great writeup, but no.
This needs 18+ level PCs, but I don't see the need for epic in the sense of this word.
No matter what anyone says, anyone can respond "nuh-unh, I can do that with 18+ level PCs."
Very true. But it will not be the same. You can stage the opponents and challenges so that the storyline is similar, but it is not the same.
After defeating a group of star-spawn guarding a shrine, the group traveled to a temple deep in a corrupted area, feeling it scratching at the back of their minds as they journeyed deeper. They found an island, all that remained of a once-great city, inhabited by lizardfolk that had long gone insane, somehow wresting a miserable existence during their brief periods of lucidity. At the center of that island, they found a long-abandoned yuan-ti temple, completely sealed up untold ages ago. Entering, they found a magical machine, one which they were able to identify as a powerful prison, but not as anything more. At the center of the apparatus they discerned a powerful artifact, one which they had been searching for - but it was being used to power the prison. So they shattered the machine, releasing that which it held prisoner. As the prison exploded in a terrific burst of shattered magic, the group feared they knew what they had unleashed ...
So. This story could obviously be told (with properly scaled star-spawn or some alternative) at many levels.
I'm telling it with PCs at levels over 50. This will not be the same story that I'd create if the PCs were level 10. Could it be made for PCs of level 10? Sure. Do I want to? Nope. This certainly isn't the climax of the campaign, but it's up there.
Do I have any idea what the PCs are going to do? Hell no, so I guess they're one up on me, because they do have a hunch what is coming out of the water, and it ain't a star-spawn of Cthulhu.
At least Wizards and Clerics are already close to gods at level 18+ and at 20 have no chance to grow any further because there simply is no potential to grow into that still fits in the game world and the basic game rules.
Are they? I'd say that depends on the portrayal of the gods. I could argue that if you've got a 50th-level cleric, clearly whoever the god is of that 50th-level cleric is just a wee bit more powerful than the cleric.
I'm not making this up from scratch; there's plenty of resources out there for such things, so I'm clearly not alone. You can, of course, use the SRD rules for divine powers, but you can also use things like The Primal Order and Craig Cochrane's Immortals Handbooks (Ascension and Epic Bestiary), or Sword and Sorcery's The Divine and the Defeated that I just found in a used book store.
My point is basically that just because someone is a 20th-level anything does not mean that they have to exist in a universe where they're the pinnacle of creation, any more than being a 6th-level warrior in a pissant little country village means someone is the most powerful combatant on the whole continent. It's all up to your game group, your GM, and what game you want to play.
If Epic means more of the same old, I would say no, thanks, because doing 175 dpr instead of 123 isn't epic at all.
And I'd agree. It's more than a matter of scale. It's a matter of how you think about solving problems.
Long story short, in order for epic to be epic you basically need a new game.
All the more reason to get away from that heavily loaded term. Everyone has a different opinion of what "epic" actually means, and when things are "epic" and what "epic" characters should be doing.
I genuinely have none of the high-level misgivings that many people have expressed for the system. As long as you're prepared to do the work, it's fine. I would prefer not to see artificial caps on growth unless there was some way to grow outward rather than upward. (Like good rules for adding new classes to your character after your initial class reaches level 30 or whatever your cap might be.)
If you are dead-set against uncapped levels I don't really understand why you can't just refuse to use anything past what you arbitrarily decide is the "correct" number of levels. Plenty of people currently refuse to play or run games that go beyond 16th or so, seems like if available levels went to fifty or infinity you could play only the first however-many without being too torn up about it.
I'll be disappointed if my opportunities for epic play are gimped to satisfy people who insist on being given fewer options or less powerful characters but I'm sure it will be of high quality, regardless.
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I'd say that depends on the portrayal of the gods. I could argue that if you've got a 50th-level cleric, clearly whoever the god is of that 50th-level cleric is just a wee bit more powerful than the cleric.
3.X gave uncapped advancement. It also gave stats for gods. Which led to the inevitable eventually of there being a priest of Zeus (for example) who could beat the everlovin' crap out of Zeus. In fact, by about 50th level, a character should have had pretty much any god that was given stats in 3.X praying to HIM.
3.X gave uncapped advancement. It also gave stats for gods. Which led to the inevitable eventually of there being a priest of Zeus (for example) who could beat the everlovin' crap out of Zeus. In fact, by about 50th level, a character should have had pretty much any god that was given stats in 3.X praying to HIM.
I'd say that depends on the portrayal of the gods. I could argue that if you've got a 50th-level cleric, clearly whoever the god is of that 50th-level cleric is just a wee bit more powerful than the cleric.
Which clearly means that that incarnation of Zeus would be of no value in my campaign. Just like the Cthulhu in the d20 Call of Cthulhu book is of no value in my campaign.
There is no Grand Universal Law that says if I want to have Zeus in my campaign I have to use the depiction of Zeus from the 3.0e Deities and Demigods book. Heck, I don't have to have Zeus at all, but if I do decide to, I could ignore that one, or treat it as an avatar of Zeus, or throw another 50 levels on it, or do whatever I want.
I've said it a number of times.
Clearly the campaign world of Golarion needs a level cap for internal consistency. This is obvious to me, as a number of CRs and levels for powerful creatures have already been defined, and general CRs for demon princes and demigods and the like have been stated.
What's equally obvious to me is that there's no inherent level cap in the Pathfinder rules, be it Pathfinder or 3.5e. If I want to run a "yee haw fight the Gods" campaign, all I need to do is set the CR of the gods and let the characters approach it.
If it don't (and I don't), all I need to do is leave it unspecified. The gods in my campaign do not have a CR. They will likely never have a CR. It's just not relevant.
If I decided I did not want to run a campaign where the characters could oppose the gods, and yet also used the 3.0e depiction of the gods and yet also let the characters get up to levels in the 50s, then that's a flaw in my game - it's like saying "I want a corvette convertible, and I want the stock model, and, oh, I want to be able to drive elephants around."
I chose to run at super high levels and to have the characters not be able to oppose the gods ... therefore my depiction of the gods is constrained. That is not a flaw, that is a design decision.
i would LOVE to see some epic/mythic rules for characters past 20th level. i own a few adventures that easily take a character from level 1 to level 21+, so it would be nice to see some rules that support mythic advancement.