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Ok, we all know what Scry and Die is: the PCs scry out the villain, cast a crap-ton of buffs, then teleport in while the villain is in the bath.
Various adventures take care of this problem in various ways, but here is a solution I really like.
Make Scry and Teleport fail when you try to go underground. They can still work if you have specially prepared magic circles (Spellcraft) that you have prepared (but, of course, unless you've been there you couldn't know that a magic circle was in that exact spot).
This means that there will be an in-game reason for people to make dungeons. Dungeons, despite the costs of excavation, will be the only nonmagical way to prevent Scrying and Teleporting so lots of heroes and villains will have a reason to live-in and build dungeons.
I like this because it solves a mechanical and a story problem.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not a bad idea at all. Especially if you also include that fact that most high level bad guys will want to teleport into their lair, so they'll have a circle set up right outside - thus the PCs can still teleport TO the dungeon (if they scry the entrance and find the magic circle, but then have to go through it room by room, just like anyone else.)
You could also allow for a level of refinement and have a whole new subset of spells and/or magic items that put security on the teleport magic circles - effects that restrict their use (either by completely stopping, or damaging creatures that don't fit the criteria) to a certain creature type, alignment, etc., or only allow them to be used once or twice a day, to prevent whole armies teleporting to them, holding incoming teleporters in stasis for a round or two, etc.
I always wondered about the zillions of "dungeons" hewn out of solid rock, as if an entire civilization of excavators had nothing better to do for ten thousand years, and then suddenly vanished without a trace. A reason for their existence would be good to have.
Wouldn't it be easier and a bit less adventure/setting-dependent to forbid Teleportation to places only known by Scrying? Not all possible assassination targets live in dungeons - e. g. the PCs.
One might also wonder why being "underground" is different from being in a castle with walls several yards thick. And does an open cave count as underground?
If one is willing to spend the money to build a dungeon, there are relatively simple ways to protect your (villain's) bathroom from Scrying, btw. A permanent M's Private Sanctum comes to mind.
Edit: There are several spells to stop Teleportation, too. In Core, there's Forbiddance, for example.
Edit2: Clarification.
Not a bad idea at all. Especially if you also include that fact that most high level bad guys will want to teleport into their lair, so they'll have a circle set up right outside - thus the PCs can still teleport TO the dungeon (if they scry the entrance and find the magic circle, but then have to go through it room by room, just like anyone else.)
You could also allow for a level of refinement and have a whole new subset of spells and/or magic items that put security on the teleport magic circles - effects that restrict their use (either by completely stopping, or damaging creatures that don't fit the criteria) to a certain creature type, alignment, etc., or only allow them to be used once or twice a day, to prevent whole armies teleporting to them, holding incoming teleporters in stasis for a round or two, etc.
Villains could still have circles deep in their lair because PCs wouldn't have a way of knowing about them.
Wouldn't it be easier and a bit less adventure/setting-dependent to forbid Teleportation to places only known by Scrying? Not all possible assassination targets live in dungeons - e. g. the PCs.
One might also wonder why being "underground" is different from being in a castle with walls several yards thick. And does an open cave count as underground?
If one is willing to spend the money to build a dungeon, there are relatively simple ways to protect your (villain's) bathroom from Scrying, btw. A permanent M's Private Sanctum comes to mind.
Edit: There are several spells to stop Teleportation, too. In Core, there's Forbiddance, for example.
Edit2: Clarification.
Building a dungeon only requires labor(or just finding a cave or the like), while permanent magical protections require money and high-level spellcasters. The key here is that this is the nonmagical way to protect yourself. That way a low-level cult can have their meetings in a cave without the King's Wizard automatically finding them. The wizard has to hire adventurers to go root out and find the cult the old fashioned way.
On the other point, I think an open cave or stone castle should work as well.
Overall I think this is a very good idea - one easily solved by saying that if something is beneath 40 feet of earth or 20 feet of stone, scrying and teleporation fails. Gives ample reasons for dungeons, removes Scry & Die almost entirely from the game and is thematic.
Hm. When the low-level low-magic cult should be able to hide from the king's wizard's magic... can the low-level low-magic thug gang beat up the king's champion?
High level beats low level - and rightly so.
The point here seems to be more about rationalising the need for adventurers (which can and should be solved by good setting/adventure design) and spells able to shortcut whole adventures (which isn't limited to Scrying, but also includes Speak with Dead, Detect Lies, Detect Evil, D&D3.5-Find the Path etc.).
IF, however, you're looking for a change for Scrying, I'd suggest sticking to the traditional way of blocking Divination: sheets of lead. It's established, it's easier to rule than "is this wall thick enough", and it isn't as restrictive as limiting all secretive organisations to cave dwelling.
Edit: I want to emphasize what I said before: "Scry and die" is not only a problem for NPC villains. Quite to the contrary, these always seem to dwell in their fortified lairs, surrounded by minions and always with an escape plan ready.
PC's make much, much more vulnerable targets for S&D. Group separated? Group in/shortly after a fight? Group asleep? Group in *gasp* civil clothing? Dungeon walls don't help at all in this direction.
Hm. When the low-level low-magic cult should be able to hide from the king's wizard's magic... can the low-level low-magic thug gang beat up the king's champion?
High level beats low level - and rightly so.
Thats not the problem. Its the "high-level means NO low level". The game is designed in such a way that if high level opponents exist, its impossible for low level crap to even happen since fixing it is really small and easy for high-levels. Mostly, its because of high level divinations.
Its fine if the King's wizard knows that the cult is working out of a cave. The champion runs in and the cultists flee or fight or whatever. The problem is when the Wizard scrys with his Crystal Ball, casts a teleport, then a cone of cold, and then teleports home. A gripping adventure is then over in four rounds.
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And sheets of lead only helps industrialized villains. From Orc tribes to demons, the number of potential villains that don't have access to lead is huge.
Edit: I want to emphasize what I said before: "Scry and die" is not only a problem for NPC villains. Quite to the contrary, these always seem to dwell in their fortified lairs, surrounded by minions and always with an escape plan ready.
PC's make much, much more vulnerable targets for S&D. Group separated? Group in/shortly after a fight? Group asleep? Group in *gasp* civil clothing? Dungeon walls don't help at all in this direction.But thats OK. PCs are expected to have spells and protections and be able to handle sneak attacks. considering that they have the ability to rest in safe locations, its not even a deal for them.
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I gotta know, what is so wrong with scry and die? It sounds like it's the most well thought out strategy against badly made high-level NPCs.
If your PC is able to cast Scry, why aren't you making wizards who can fight that? Magic protection is as easy as saying 'that doesn't work'. or better yet, the BBEG has a bedroom protected against teleportation; the PCs can get as far as the outer wall.
If you consult your DMG (and DMG II) it tells you how to overcome this kind of pitfall.
You are also assuming the kings wizard can cast those spells. Or wants to. If I was high enough level, I sure as hell wouldn't want to go do it myself. Hire some stupid people to do your dirty work.
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Overall I think this is a very good idea - one easily solved by saying that if something is beneath 40 feet of earth or 20 feet of stone, scrying and teleporation fails. Gives ample reasons for dungeons, removes Scry & Die almost entirely from the game and is thematic.
Agree for all the above reasons.
I gotta know, what is so wrong with scry and die? It sounds like it's the most well thought out strategy against badly made high-level NPCs.
Because it means that you can't have have Dragons or Demons or any number of other high level enemies that aren't spellcasters or leaders of organizations of high level spellcasters. You are forced to add in high level spellcasters to every adventure.
Thats both boring and inefficient of a DMs time.
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My solution is simpler.
Find a new DM.
If you're high enough level to scrye and teleport in on the BBEG then the BBEG is powerful enough to ward his liar so you can't do either while he's in the bath.
Thats both boring and inefficient of a DMs time.
No, it's called lazy and bad DMing.
Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location.
Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location.
It has a caster level of 8. That means that you have to cast Scry twice on average to beat it.
There's at least a dozen ways to stop "Scry & Die" in Core alone. You say so yourself - the PC's are supposed to use them. Why not the NPC's?
The problem you're trying to tackle is high vs. low level. That's not something you can "fix" in D&D - that's what levels in D&D is all about. If you're having trouble finding reasons for low level adventurers to work for the king, work on your setting/adventure.
Maybe the court wizard is unreliable, even suspected of working for the cultists? The king's chief of secret police (the rogue equivalent to the court wizard) might also take care of the problem, but he's worried about exposing himself too much and hires some unknown strangers instead to deal with this minor thread. Two of the kingdom's most influential traders are worried about bandits and wyverns in the northern woods, and thus the guard and their fabled captain are busy there.
On the other hand, the cultists know about divination magic, too. So, they're smart enough not to hide in a single hideout under a banner "virgin sacrification company", but communicate in code, change meeting places, wear *gasp* masks when involved in obviously evil activity.
D&D needs some thinking when you design an adventure, so that it cannot be solved with a single spell. But that's not restricted to Scry, as said. Worry about Contact other Plane, Communion (esp. the XP-free variant via Imp familiar), Find the Path (already fixed in Pathfinder - "Show me the way to the cultist's last hideout"). Those are real killers. Scry is easy.
Rules perspective:
Scry needs a valid target. "The cultists" is IMHO to vague to allow an attempt; the minimum should be around "the leader of the cult of the double-headed snake based in Connaria". If the cult has no leader, you're in serious trouble. "A cultist" would, IMHO, never fulfill the criteria of Scry, as it needs an individual target.
In the example you've given, Scry probably wouldn't work at all until some information is gained beforehand. Information gathered, for example, by some low-level adventurers.
There's at least a dozen ways to stop "Scry & Die" in Core alone. You say so yourself - the PC's are supposed to use them. Why not the NPC's?
Because the NPCs are not PCs?
NPCs don't have the wealth or versatility of a PC, and they are not designed that way. Monsters are not built on the same rubric. Take the example of a powerful dragon. He has some wealth which PCs are supposed to take from him when they kill him. He's not supposed to spend the wealth getting a permanent mage's privare sanctum or else the PCs get no loot.
Very few monsters have the ability to prevent Scry and Die. Its not even a problem of "high-level vs. low level", its a problem of "high level vs. everyone". Entire genres of adventures can't happen at mid-levels (not even high) simply because of two spells.
By not building in some defense available to every monster or NPC villain, you disallow entire Monster Manuals worth of villains. I mean, a Hullathoin is not supposed to be bargaining for protection amulets or commanding Wizard cohorts or paying for wards installed in its lair. Its an undead abomination that is supposed to attack everything it meets, and thats a fun adventure at high levels unless you let people end the adventure by Scry and Die after the few clues get dropped.
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Scry allows people to find villains by such criteria as "heard of the person" or "has a scrap of clothing." Its an adventure ender.
It doesn't have to be 8 though.It has a caster level of 8. That means that you have to cast Scry twice on average to beat it.
Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location.
Hey, if you want to change the pricing of magic items, I'm behind you.... but that a different thing, right?
At 35K, a CR 13 NPC can afford a base Amulet (and no other treasure). Even a 10th level Wizard only fails on a 10 or less, so he'll need to cast twice.
A caster level 20 amulet costs 120K, and is appropriate for a 18th level opponent, assuming 10K other treasure. At 18th level, a caster needs to make a caster level check of 35.... at 18+1d20, he may need to cast scry four or five times, assuming he doesn't have any way to boost his caster level(which he probably does).
Basically, unless you are willing to hand out epic-level Amulets of Proof against Detection and Location to every villain, this is not a solution to Scry and Die.
This is almost like an interesting example of the Lich-Loved Argument (q.v.), with K weighing in on Lich-Loved's side for once. Problem: If all non-warded bad guys could be "scry-T-K'ed," then they would be; but they're not, so something isn't right. Proposed Solution: a thickness of earth or stone prevents that tactic.
Simply arbitrarily declaring scrying to be impossible by DM fiat goes counter to both the rules of the game and to the correlary to the Lich-Loved Method ("it obviously has to be impossible, but the onus is on the GM to think of a logical reason why not"). Likewise, K has shown that handing out lead and amulets to everyone violates all kinds of other game standards.
His solution currently fits the Lich-Loved Standard, and, if written into the new spell descriptions for Pathfinder, fits the much more difficult Frank Trollman Standard as well (to summarize, "Any potential abuses should be corrected within the RAR").
I think you don't really get the point, but I don't know how to put it any clearer, so I'll stop trying.
A sidenote, though: Your proposed solution doesn't help really the Hullathoin, as it can be encountered in "Any land or underground." With a shoulder height of 20 ft., it'll have problems fitting into most anti-scrying-shelters.
An undead monster only interested in killing creatures has little problem with surprise attacks in the first place.
Problem: If all non-warded bad guys could be "scry-T-K'ed," then they would be; but they're not, so something isn't right.
All non-fire-immune bad guys could be fireballed, but they aren't. Thus, Fireball has to be fixed not to work underground.
I think you don't really get the point, but I don't know how to put it any clearer, so I'll stop trying.
I do get what you are saying...I just don't think its a valid argument. You are essentially saying that there are several ways to defeat Scrying, so a DM should make adventures to take that into account.
My response is to point out that all of those solutions involve high-level spellcasting or industrialized society and there are several monsters that make perfectly viable high level villains that shouldn't need a high-level spellcaster or a fortune in refined metal (and an army of craftsmen) to be villains.
I'm not even worried about the other Scrying spells, since they just give clues to move an adventure along. I'm worried about adventures being negated by a single tactic.
A sidenote, though: Your proposed solution doesn't help really the Hullathoin, as it can be encountered in "Any land or underground." With a shoulder height of 20 ft., it'll have problems fitting into most anti-scrying-shelters.
So, when did caves and buildings suddenly get a rule saying that have to be smaller than 20 feat?
Does the Hullathoin lack the ability to dig a hole and bury itself?
An undead monster only interested in killing creatures has little problem with surprise attacks in the first place.
I'm sorry....I thought you knew what Scry and Die meant.
Scry and Die is where people do surprise attacks after blowing almost every spell slot on short-term buffs. Not only do they gain the advantage of surprise, but they gain the advantage of many small buffs that add up to a lot of power (Take a dozen 1 round/level spells, then extend and cast them, then Teleport).
Not only does the adventure get ruined, but the monster the DM almost certainly statted out beforehand gets blown out of the water without a real challenge.
How big a problem is this really?
Is it so widespread that it ruins every high level campaign?
It seems to me that using this tactic requires quite a large time investment on the part of the PCs.
Let's take a look at the spells.
Scrying only works for 1 min/level, while Greater Scrying works for 1 hour/level. If you wanted to pinpoint when the bad guy has let his guards down, you have to basically constantly monitor him.
Scrying has a casting time of 1 hour, so you automatically lose that amount of scrying time. Also, a scryer would have to have used all his spell slots on this spell to get a decent idea of when the bad guy does what. Then there's also the fact that if the bad guy makes his Will save you can't scry him for another 24 hours! Plus, when someone makes his saving throw, he's aware that someone tried to "magic" him, although he doesn't know who or how. Still, it certainly makes him aware that something is going on and he can enact countermeasures (e.g. divination spells and scrying of his own if a spellcaster).
Greater Scrying eliminates a lot of the time problems, since it only takes a standard action to cast and lasts for many hours.
Also note that to get a Studied carefully roll on the teleport Familiarity table, you pretty much rule out using Scrying for this, since you have to have studied the area you're teleporting to for at least an hour. Again, Greater Teleport does away with this problem... remove Greater Teleport from the spell list perhaps?
Wouldn't the simplest solution then be to change the casting time and duration for Greater Scrying? Make it the same as for Scrying, but keep the spells you can cast through your mirror/pool/etc.
I think that would eliviate a lot of the problem.
Maybe instead of fixating on what the subject can do to prevent it, try to look at the caster and the spell itself. Maybe tweak the Will save modifiers. Add in a counter measure on behalf of the spell or the subject - something like the teleport percentages, only if it fails the subject could see an image of you or the caster could be subject to a feeblemind spell for x number of hours/days. Just putting ideas out there.
All non-fire-immune bad guys could be fireballed, but they aren't. Thus, Fireball has to be fixed not to work underground.
No. Fireball is specifically designed to fireball people. That's what it does. Scry and teleport were not meant to create a nearly escape-proof certain-death combination ("Is he asleep yet?" "Nope." "OK, check again in an hour!")
@ k
If the PCs want to spend a whole days worth of spells for a single combat, then they're almost certain to be successful.
Take the Hullathoin, whyever that's the creature you take as an example. The Hullathoin has no ranged attack. It cannot fly. Aboveground, a party can take it apart in ranged combat, using Fly and Air Walk to negate any meaningful defense the Hullathoin might offer. In a dungeon setting, a Forcecage with bars will almost completely protect the PC's (depending on the layout of the dungeon).
The price is resources: Using only spells to defeat the beast from a safe distance is possible, but will put a severe strain on the caster's resources. Balance in D&D is often connected to burning resources. If you look at a spell or situation and completely disregard this factor, it's no wonder there'll appear to a problem.
Many spells allow killing something without a real possibility to fight back, Scry not being the most powerful one. The PC's are supposed to win. The players are just supposed to have some troubles making it happen.
I just DMd a 20th level adventure, three casters in the group. The group was very aware of you so called "Scry & Die" and often tried to implement this tactic. There wasn't a single encounter where it was feasible.
The BBEG used subterfuge, minions and speed to evade the heroes. They didn't know what they were facing until they finally faced it - so, not Scrying the BBEG.
The setting was very open and flexible, but they were under time pressure constantly, so resting after every fight appeared to be out of the question. To "S&D" the minions would have been a.) overkill b.) waste of resources = time.
The problem you're having is in adventure design.
IF you want a change in this regard, look at Scry more closely. It has limits, it allows a save, the target can detect the sensor. If the BBEG constantly detects Scrying sensors, he'll probably take countermeasures - not spend the day in the bathtub.
The "underground" proposal is not very fitting, unless you only play dungeon crawls (where Scry shouldn't be much of a problem anyhow). If you can't handle the problems from Scry, disallow teleporting to places only seen by Scrying. Handle the "must have some information on the target" restriction from Scrying a bit more strictly - from the cultists example, I suspect you understand this very differently from me. I wouldn't allow "some cultist" as a Scrying target, but in your example, you appear to do.
Last, but not least:
Why in the world would a Hullathoin spent his days buried under 20 ft. of dirt!?
No. Fireball is specifically designed to fireball people. That's what it does. Scry and teleport were not meant to create a nearly escape-proof certain-death combination ("Is he asleep yet?" "Nope." "OK, check again in an hour!")
Curious. I'd say Scry is meant to allow viewing distant people, and Teleport is supposed to travel quickly to remote places. The combination is explicitly mentioned and allowed in the Teleport description.
Thus, the intent can hardly be used as an argument against this tactic. Balance can be, though it doesn't persuade me.
@ k
If the PCs want to spend a whole days worth of spells for a single combat, then they're almost certain to be successful.
Take the Hullathoin, whyever that's the creature you take as an example. The Hullathoin has no ranged attack. It cannot fly. Aboveground, a party can take it apart in ranged combat, using Fly and Air Walk to negate any meaningful defense the Hullathoin might offer. In a dungeon setting, a Forcecage with bars will almost completely protect the PC's (depending on the layout of the dungeon).
Hullathoins have a horde of fiendish vampire spawn hanging around and bloodfiend locusts and its smart enough to use any treasure it has....it doesn't need innate ranged attacks.
Considering that it spawns monsters, I see no reason why it wouldn't be underground and send out minions.
But, it is true that circumstances can conspire to make it easy for a few spells to be auto-wins. I think those spells should be fixed too.
IF you want a change in this regard, look at Scry more closely. It has limits, it allows a save, the target can detect the sensor. If the BBEG constantly detects Scrying sensors, he'll probably take countermeasures - not spend the day in the bathtub.
Sure, when the target is making DC 20 Int checks, he'll detect the sensor....so basically Wizards only, who already have ways of protecting themselves, and even then less then a third of the time. If the villain has an Int less than 12 (like a Fire Giant Warlord or something), he can't even detect it.
Failed saves just means that nothing happens and you can't do it for 24 hours. You really can wait another day and Scry and Die tomorrow.
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My point is, once you have a villain's lair, its basically over. Even causing a villain to change lairs is a success in itself since it'll take time to set up a new lair with traps and the like.
I'll concede that you can only make adventures that make it impractical to Scry and Die. I think that its a poor solution that encourages stagnation in adventure design.
Considering that dungeons are part and parcel of this game(check the name), I think it makes a lot of sense to give any logical reason to build them and don't mind if underground locations then get used a lot.
I think there's little left to say.
Quick sidenote though: Checking the SRD again, I found:
Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
My suggestion is already in place... Every day, you learn something new. :-)
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Is S&D a problem because of static villains?
Scrying over and over without time constraints or penalties makes for a big PC advantage. Scry should give the PCs an occasional advantage, imo, but it can also land a party into a well-laid trap. A giant chieftain doesn't have to have a high-level wizard to occasionally switch sleeping rooms with his warlord, for example. And if by miracle he does detect a scrying attempt, he may move up his plans to raid a village, or accuse his hostages of trying to 'magic' his mind and punish them, or have his shaman scry the PCs, or likely all of the above.
I have never had a problem with S&D tactics, although they have been occasionally useful it has yet to lead to an anticlimatic assassination. I believe this is because of dynamic villains, where the PCs had difficulty in predicting their actions and were given a short amount of time to prepare. The timetable varies by neccessity.
I don't think the Scrying spells or Teleports need changing; doing so could discourage creative problem-solving and upset some spellcaster PCs.
In my experience, Scry and die happens very quickly. Its like "hey, we finally found him".....ten rounds pass as buffs are cast...., then "let's get him."
The most dynamic villain in the world gets about ten rounds before fully equipped and buffed adventurers come crashing down his door. In essence, he has enough time to put on some pants. Considering that his chance of seeing a Scrying sensor are somewhere between "no chance" and "very, very small chance", this leads to a dead villain.
Heck, some adventurers just prebuff on the chance that the Scry will work and then the villain gets only one round (enough time to pick up a weapon).
In my experience, Scry and die happens very quickly. Its like "hey, we finally found him".....ten rounds pass as buffs are cast...., then "let's get him."
The most dynamic villain in the world gets about ten rounds before fully equipped and buffed adventurers come crashing down his door. In essence, he has enough time to put on some pants. Considering that his chance of seeing a Scrying sensor are somewhere between "no chance" and "very, very small chance", this leads to a dead villain.
Heck, some adventurers just prebuff on the chance that the Scry will work and then the villain gets only one round (enough time to pick up a weapon).
So... you run campaigns where none of your villains ever make their Will saves, where every Teleport (not Greater) spell doesn't mishap, where the BBEG never turns out to be able to outmatch even a well buffed party, where NPCs don't use the very same tactics that the PCs use against them, where as soon as "hey, we finally found him" happens the party is capable of buffing everyone in a few rounds and off you go?
Seem to me like the problem isn't as much with the spells, but may lie elsewhere. :-)
So... you run campaigns where none of your villains ever make their Will saves, where every Teleport (not Greater) spell doesn't mishap, where the BBEG never turns out to be able to outmatch even a well buffed party, where NPCs don't use the very same tactics that the PCs use against them, where as soon as "hey, we finally found him" happens the party is capable of buffing everyone in a few rounds and off you go? Seem to me like the problem isn't as much with the spells, but may lie elsewhere. :-)
Yes, the problem is in the way the rules, and almost all pre-written adventures, are written. The villain MIGHT save -- but K has shown it's highly unlikely. The teleport MIGHT fail -- but again the likelihood is next to zero. If the villain can almost certainly defeat a fully-buffed party, then if they DON'T scry-and-die, their chances of survival are essentially nil. And all this still begs the question as to why all the villains in 99% of prewritten adventures construct and then sit around in "dungeons."
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If I might...
I don't really agree that the lead sheeting is out of the quesion, or requires an industrialised society. Cathedrals and churches across medieval Europe had leaded roofs, presumably with lots of palaces and whatnot as well - that's a lot of lead. I fail to see why said BBEG should not have as much lead sheeting as he wants - hell, maybe his bath is lead.
I agree that the rules as written allow high level parties to attempt this sort of adventuring. I have never had a party try it in many years of DMing, but I can easily see how a group would latch onto it if it gave them success.
That said, the DM's job is to create a rewarding and entertaining game environment for the party. If the party enjoy this sort of one encounter and the DM enjoys running it, then that is fine. If either the DM or the players do not enjoy this then that is where the problem lies.
Any campaign that contains medium to high level heroes is going to generate stories about those heroes. If many of the bards tales of your adventuring parties (past and current) end with them using magic to scry and then teleport into the villains lairs, then the current villains of your campaign are going to take counter measures. Either lead lined walls or specially designed spells that block magic travel (Forbiddance, Mage’s Private Sanctum or even sleeping in a rope trick) for the more intelligent and resourceful ones. Even a counter attack with a hoard of summoned creatures, up to the Teleport spells limit is acceptable for villains who have the ability to do so them selves, or the leverage to buy or coerce some one into doing it for them. Give them a taste of their own medicine, so to speak. I would not limit to an attack on the PC's, if the big bad end guy was resourceful, he could go after the PC's family and friends.
Also don't underestimate the villains ability to use this as an excuse to ambush the party, he will obviously know they are coming at some point and would have counter plans in place. If you think you are going to be poisoned you have people taste your food, so why would you not have plans to counter when assassins teleport in to your bed chamber.
In my experience, you only have to scare the party once with this kind of tactic, for them to rethink their strategy.
The aim here is NOT to punish the PC's for their resourcefulness, but to make the encounter a challenge by giving the villains a similar level of resourcefulness.
No rule book will ever be free of loop holes that can be exploited, that is why the game needs a DM to interpret those rules and react accordingly.
I once had this setup... never came into play.
The BBEG, a drow wizard, had built himself a secluded underground lair without any access points. He used Teleport to travel around. As he had problems before with bad atmosphere in underground settings, he had created a Necklace of Adaptation, and used the "bad air" problem actively: He had used up all the oxygen in his lair with open fires, and so, it wasn't possible to properly breath in there. Also, he frequently switched between several of the rooms of the lair, sent a bunch of skeletons into the unused rooms and closed them with Walls of Stone.
If the party would have managed to Scry on him and not immediately teleported into his lair, they would have had a 1 in 4 to chance to arrive at one of the unused rooms. The skeletons would probably have been enough of a diversion to make them notice their problems to breath only some rounds later... and by then, they would have had enough noise to alert the drow, wasted too much time fighting the skeletons and thus wouldn't have had enought time to hack through the Wall of Stone (further hindered by the question where the exit actually was). Retreat would have been the only viable option... And then, after having alerted the Drow, after having used up most of their spells, they would have felt reaaaaally scared about him teleporting in and finishing them off, wouldn't they?
I don't think they would EVER have had tried a "Scry and Die" solution again while I'm behind the screen.
And that's the point... Scare them with all the crazy stuff the BBEG might have prepared for them. Teleporting right into that... not so wise, perhaps?
With undead BBEGs, that kind of tactic is even easier, as they can use all sorts of environmental hazards to get rid of intruders.
In my experience, Scry and die happens very quickly. Its like "hey, we finally found him".....ten rounds pass as buffs are cast...., then "let's get him."
The most dynamic villain in the world gets about ten rounds before fully equipped and buffed adventurers come crashing down his door. In essence, he has enough time to put on some pants. Considering that his chance of seeing a Scrying sensor are somewhere between "no chance" and "very, very small chance", this leads to a dead villain.
Heck, some adventurers just prebuff on the chance that the Scry will work and then the villain gets only one round (enough time to pick up a weapon).
I don't know how you're going to prevent ambushes like this. Even if you banned Scrying completely, you could still use other divinations like Clairvoyance, or you could send in virtually undetectable scouts (an ethereal jann is possible starting with Summon Nature's Ally V), or se other sorts of magical shenanigans.
I don't have a problem with parties who want to scout; the only objectionable part of the "scry and die" scenario (to me) is the "bursting in suddenly" (from a safe location) part. So shouldn't that be the part to fix? For instance, just say that [Greater] Teleport requires first-hand knowledge of the destination and divinations don't count.
Now if you're talking about "Scry and Ruin My Carefully Plotted Mystery" rather than "Scry and Die", that's a different story...
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I addressed the problem this way:
I asked my players if S&D was a technique they supported. If they did, then the foes would use it as well. They thought better of the idea and asked me to derive a house rule.
I ruled that teleportation magic requires a metaphysical connection to the place to which you are teleporting. You can get this connection by physically seeing the place (atop yonder mountain) visiting the place (we were at the palace once, let's go there) or having your familiar visit the place (familiars provide this benefit to their masters per PHB) but simply viewing the place though magic is not enough of a connection for the spell to work. This allowed all forms of divination to be useful but prevented S&D attacks on NPCs and the party (which is far more vulnerable to it really since they interact with a wider circle of people).
And as far as dungeons go, they are used IMHO because they are easily defended, out of sight, hard to locate, relatively easy to expand with labor or magic and hard to recon without entering.
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If I might...
I don't really agree that the lead sheeting is out of the quesion, or requires an industrialised society. Cathedrals and churches across medieval Europe had leaded roofs, presumably with lots of palaces and whatnot as well - that's a lot of lead. I fail to see why said BBEG should not have as much lead sheeting as he wants - hell, maybe his bath is lead.
If you are building cathedrals, your society is industrialized. It may not be the heavy industry of the Industrial Revolution, but somewhere there has to be lead mines, distribution networks, steady demand for lead so that people actually have a reason to mine and accumulate it....the list goes on.
And if your villain is a demon, or a dragon, or a superintelligent berry patch or something even more exotic, he can't go into town and spend the hundreds of thousands of GP necessary to outfit a whole cave complex in lead sheeting.
If your villain is a spellcaster, as Evil_Wizards shows in his example, then certainly you don't need any changes to scrying or teleportation since you have dozens of ways of foiling teleportation ambushes. But, even a Great Wyrm Dragon may not have the magical ju-ju to put up any kinds of protections and for a CR 20+ creature that is a bad deal.
I flat won't accept any answer of "but a good DM could fix that." That's not actually useful when talking in a New Rules playtest forum. Making a game that's easier to play actually involves fixing problems for DMs so that they can spend their creativity making engaging stories instead of figuring out work-arounds to design problems in the system itself. People complain that high-level adventures are hard to design, but they never figure out that it is because there are whole areas of high-level play that need rules.
And on another note, underground construction is not easy or cheap. That's why, in the history of the world, underground construction is a rarity and not a common thing (even in the mdern world with machineray and the like).
I don't know how you're going to prevent ambushes like this. Even if you banned Scrying completely, you could still use other divinations like Clairvoyance, or you could send in virtually undetectable scouts (an ethereal jann is possible starting with Summon Nature's Ally V), or se other sorts of magical shenanigans.
All of which have limitations. Jann can only use invisibility a few times a day for a few minutes each time so even ethereal ones would get spotted and provoke a response...Clairavoyance has a limited range and only works on places you know well, other divinations only provide clues...
Fixing Scry and Die requires fixing both teleport and scrying. Sure, fixing just teleporting would work too, and I'll take that if its all that's offered.
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My real question is "why there is so much resistance?" Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Star Trek sensors and transporters don't work underground?
They do it because its easier to tell stories that way.
I think it's a fantastic solution. It helps me tell better stories within the game world, at low-to-no prep time.
Done.
(In my campaign, anyway.)
All of which have limitations. Jann can only use invisibility a few times a day for a few minutes each time so even ethereal ones would get spotted and provoke a response...Clairavoyance has a limited range and only works on places you know well, other divinations only provide clues...
Huh? Why would you need to be invisible while you're ethereal? Ethereal creatures are already invisible and anything that reveals ethereal creatures also reveals invisible creatures (to my knowledge).
Clairvoyance also works in an "obvious" place (like behind a door). It sounded from your original post that you were even opposed to short-ranged surprise attacks, but maybe I was misreading you.
If you're just saying that Scry ruins mysteries, I'm sympathetic. But even with Scry gone there's still Commune, Contact Other Plane and a host of mystery-ruining psionic powers (Object Reading, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Clairvoyant Sense) that people will resort to using.
Clairvoyance also works in an "obvious" place (like behind a door). It sounded from your original post that you were even opposed to short-ranged surprise attacks, but maybe I was misreading you.
I was talking about long-range surprise attacks. That explains the confusion.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Huh. I think this is a pretty cool idea. It helps solve a high level problem and provides explanation for the existence of so many dungeons.
A different solution might be to have teleport automatically produce a disjunctive effect. That way whenever a party teleports, they are automatically debuffed. That would allow the scry and die tactic, it just wouldn't be nearly as effective.
Huh. I think this is a pretty cool idea. It helps solve a high level problem and provides explanation for the existence of so many dungeons.
A different solution might be to have teleport automatically produce a disjunctive effect. That way whenever a party teleports, they are automatically debuffed. That would allow the scry and die tactic, it just wouldn't be nearly as effective.
I considered that, but I think people would then teleport across the room any time they were under a bad effect.
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If you are building cathedrals, your society is industrialized. It may not be the heavy industry of the Industrial Revolution, but somewhere there has to be lead mines, distribution networks, steady demand for lead so that people actually have a reason to mine and accumulate it....the list goes on.
I'm British - the Roman invaded Britain for its mineral reserves, primarily lead and tin. Unless you are suggesting that the Romans were an industrial power, that claim is somewhat baseless. Medieval cathedrals were emphatically not industrialised (i.e. mass-produced) items - they were created as individual items by skilled craftsmen. And since the medieval period is the default standard for D&D, I fail to see why it is suddenly catapulted into the industrial age just because it rains slightly on the S&D idea.
And to extend some analogies you are quite fond of a bit further, lets assume that we don't have the supposed industrial smelting facilities these medieval craftsmen were using. So lets use the wish economy itself. By time that the PCs are thinking about the S&D solution, they, and their BBEG should, should be more or less in the wish economy (for those new to this concept, see this link - though Frank's essay is a bit long-winded, I summed it up a few pages later after being told by Frank I didn't understand it). So why not wish all the lead sheeting into existence that you want, tack it up on the walls, end of problem. Chill out in the bath in comfort and security.
If you are building cathedrals, your society is industrialized. It may not be the heavy industry of the Industrial Revolution, but somewhere there has to be lead mines, distribution networks, steady demand for lead so that people actually have a reason to mine and accumulate it....the list goes on.I'm British - the Roman invaded Britain for its mineral reserves, primarily lead and tin. Unless you are suggesting that the Romans were an industrial power, that claim is somewhat baseless. Medieval cathedrals were emphatically not industrialised (i.e. mass-produced) items - they were created as individual items by skilled craftsmen. And since the medieval period is the default standard for D&D, I fail to see why it is suddenly catapulted into the industrial age just because it rains slightly on the S&D idea.
And to extend some analogies you are quite fond of a bit further, lets assume that we don't have the supposed industrial smelting facilities these medieval craftsmen were using. So lets use the wish economy itself. By time that the PCs are thinking about the S&D solution, they, and their BBEG should, should be more or less in the wish economy (for those new to this concept, see this link - though Frank's essay is a bit long-winded, I summed it up a few pages later after being told by Frank I didn't understand it). So why not wish all the lead sheeting into existence that you want, tack it up on the walls, end of problem. Chill out in the bath in comfort and security.
Aaa, we have a different opinion of the word "industrialized." I specifically said "not Industrial Revolution." I suppose you might see it as "civilized."
My point is that demons are not going to buy thousands of GP worth of lead in the market at Bob the Leadsmith's place. Its bad storytelling if you assume they can. The sheer number of villains who do not have access to civilization is huge.
On the Wish Economy...haven't you noticed its gone in Pathfinder? Wish was rewritten to remove it.
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Aaa, we have a different opinion of the word "industrialized." I specifically said "not Industrial Revolution." I suppose you might see it as "civilized."
Maybe - I take your point, though I still see little to prevent lead sheeting in a medieval society considering they used it at the time.
My point is that demons are not going to buy thousands of GP worth of lead in the market at Bob the Leadsmith's place. Its bad storytelling if you assume they can. The sheer number of villains who do not have access to civilization is huge.
Demons, yeah, I can see that - chaotic engines of destruction and all, they are probably pleased when you teleport in. Devils, hmm, well, they have a pretty stringent, stratified society - the Infernal Lead Mines would be just the place to torture those petitioners. But maybe they don't bother, possibly out of arrogance. Gronutz the ogre shaman - no, he won't bother. Icabod the evil sorcerer - well, he's likely to know about the possibility, and might well want to bathe in privacy, so I would say it might be reasonable to expect. The great red wyrm (colossal, of course) might not, but then he can probably nerf it magically - he would certainly want to protect his horde for teleporting thieves, if not himself personally.
So, some might, some might not - I guess the DM would determine what was appropriate.
On the Wish Economy...haven't you noticed its gone in Pathfinder? Wish was rewritten to remove it.
My commiserations - though nerfing Wish was probably the obvious way to get round the issue.
@ k
A Great Wyrm IS a spellcaster. A Great Wyrm will probably be quite into Scrying and Counterscrying (look a Clauth (sp?)) from FR; he spends most of his time Scrying people. Mess with a Great Wyrm on this level, and you're bound for trouble, I say.
Devils and Demons don't have to worry that much about Scry and Die, as they don't (have to) sleep, live on different planes, have great Intelligence and Will Saves, have a gazillion of minions, and often are integrated into something of a larger scheme. A group of PC's suddenly blasting away a Pit Fiend will find themselves in more trouble than the original Pit Fiend was.
If you use Pathfinder's optional buff limit, the possibilities to power up before a surprise attack are also more limited than in standard D&D3.5.
A standard D&D setting has huge armies equipped with metal weapons and armor, a more or less standardized global coin system, literacy unknown even in most of the modern world, Dragons, Giants, wizards creating buildings with a flick of the wrist, clerics bringing the back the dead... I don't think building a cathedral is out of reach for these people. Ask in the nearest dwarven city for a castle made of lead, pay the price, and you'll get it, I suppose. Some lead sheathing for a room shouldn't be an issue.
Would be kind of stupid of the designers putting the rules for lead sheathing in and designing a world where there's no lead sheathing is available, isn't it?
@ k
A Great Wyrm IS a spellcaster. A Great Wyrm will probably be quite into Scrying and Counterscrying (look a Clauth (sp?)) from FR; he spends most of his time Scrying people. Mess with a Great Wyrm on this level, and you're bound for trouble, I say.
They are Sorcerers, which means the chances of any one of them being able kit out a lair and still able to use battle magic is very low.
Even so, should every Dragon have the same spell list to prevent the same tactic? Where's the fun of that?
Devils and Demons don't have to worry that much about Scry and Die, as they don't (have to) sleep, live on different planes, have great Intelligence and Will Saves, have a gazillion of minions, and often are integrated into something of a larger scheme. A group of PC's suddenly blasting away a Pit Fiend will find themselves in more trouble than the original Pit Fiend was.
I've fought far more demons on the Prime than on other planes, so I'm not sure why everyone assumes they are hooked into an infernal hierarchy with all of the resources of major organizations.
By the rules, they don't even have minions except for some limited summoning ability. While an adventure may require minions, there is no reason for any particular demon to have any. Demons escaped from summoning circles on the Prime can just as easily be major villains who are stirring up orc tribes as they can't be masterminds with high-level spellcasters and demonic armies backing them up.
Heck, sometimes the villain is just a giant non-intelligent ooze thats destroying whole villages. Where's his Scry and Die protection?
Even so, most combats last three or four rounds. The party can teleport out with the loot before any minions know what is going on.
If you use Pathfinder's optional buff limit, the possibilities to power up before a surprise attack are also more limited than in standard D&D3.5.
Its just limits the crazy. Its doesn't remove it.
A standard D&D setting has huge armies equipped with metal weapons and armor, a more or less standardized global coin system, literacy unknown even in most of the modern world, Dragons, Giants, wizards creating buildings with a flick of the wrist, clerics bringing the back the dead... I don't think building a cathedral is out of reach for these people. Ask in the nearest dwarven city for a castle made of lead, pay the price, and you'll get it, I suppose. Some lead sheathing for a room shouldn't be an issue.
Would be kind of stupid of the designers putting the rules for lead sheathing in and designing a world where there's no lead sheathing is available, isn't it?
For the good races, yes. But what about the evil races? If mindflayers try to walk up to the dwarven city and ask for lead, they are not going to get it. From everything from Sahaugin to powerful undead, there are tons of potential villains that don't have access to the fruits of civilized society.
Even if they could, it does have cost. Plating a room is cheap, but plating a whole complex is wealth beyond measure. DnD is not ready for players Greyhawking the lead plating off the walls.
Comes down to this to me. The villains have at their disposal whatever resources the game master deems necessary for the sake of the story. In effect their resources are limitless. The game master looks at the group and decides what is needed to make for an interesting adventure. The villains then receive this gratis. Keep in mind that often villains have had years if not decades or centuries to secure their base of operation and often their person against common threats such as scrying and teleportation. If someone cannot figure out how to counter their players for the sake of good story then they should not be running the game in my view.
If a villain of mine needs to be able to restrict scrying and teleportation, then he is going to be able to do so. Either through spells, items or class features.
On another note, there are several modern terms for "Scry and Die"...Artillery, Bombers or bunker busting missiles. Scry and die is just the magical version of these and a very logical tactic.
-Weylin Stormcrowe