Very nice post, Chris. Thank you.
No sir, thank you. I was worried that people would be mad at me for such a long post. I hope I do your thread justice. Thanks again.
Director of Game Design
|
This is a great thread everybody,
Thanks for contributing to it, each and every one of you. I will be mining here for some ideas, as there have been some good ones. I swear, sometimes you guys make it too easy on me.
Keep up the good work. I am listening.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
It's good to see Jason jumping in and saying that these posts are ripe full of ideas. And I must say, I'm in total agreement. The idea of eschew materials and the floating spell that he could learn from an enemy caster is great. That really makes it seem like the Sorcerer is a natural caster and not a learned. A good amount of flavor and function in that idea. Some easy ways to limit it. Spellcraft check is one way of doing so. Next, make the sorcerer have to see all components of the spell or take many minuses for the check, so that way, he cannot just buy a scroll or wand and instantly memorize the spell stored in it. It would require just a slight amount of work. Good job team on this one.
Ok, been lurking a bit now, and here is what I have seen in my own experiance.
The new Bloodline mechanic works wonderfully. It is a sincere attempt at increasing the effectivness of Sorcerers but I feel it is not enough. Of all the posts here, I see a few that stand out, or refelect houserules I have used for a long time.
"seekerofshadowlight,
Eschew Materials Give it to em at 1st and make it improve as they level maybe at 5/10/15/20 or/6/12/18
Sacrifice the flesh Allow them to burn HP for extra spell's when they run out or to add metamagic without the level incress may something like 3x1, 2x1 and 1x1 progression at 6,14,18 maybe"
I have used Eschew Materials for Sorcerers for a LONG Time, usaully replacing the familar...
I like the idea of a "floating" spell slot which the Sorcerer can use to cast a spell the enemy knows he does not. It is a nifty idea, and could be maximized in usefullness with the ability to swap that floating slot's current charge (ie shocking hands for example is cast at you), for an existing spell on your list at waking, or at level up. This would increase overall versitility and give an idea of where they get they're understanding of they're powers. ("Ooo I bend reality this way, and this happens...)
I agree that a the Spell tax, and the metamagic wait time, are too much of a punishment for the Sorc. They are suppose to be quick in the casting, quick thinking, neer-do-wells using magic to make they're way in the world.
Also, perhaps consider putting UMD on they're skill list, along with a bonus to it. Magic in the blood would call to magic in an item I think, maybe even an innate ability to tell "what somthing should do," such as a powered down variant on the Identify spell usable @ will or a #/day.
Also, some of my players came up with these over the years as alternates for the Famialr (our most hated of features):
Imbue Bolt: you imbue a bolt with energy of your affinity (fire, lightning, cold), the bolt deals an extra 1d6 damage. This ability is usable as long as you have spells remaining.
Scream: you unless an unnerving howl that sounds nothing like what should come from a civillized creature, everyone within 30 feet must make a will save (DC 10+CL) or be shaken.
Final Strike: by expending every spell use you have for the day you deal to yourself and everyone in 150ft damage equal to 1d4 per spell used in this fashion. This damage hits you as well, and you may not make the reflex save for half.
All in all myself and my player base are loving your new content, It is ingenious in increasing the output of the core classes, as the power level of 3.5 in general has crept up in the last two years.
Thank you for all your hard work!
It is appreciated!
~Elvnsword & Crew,
Final Strike? WOW.
I'm coming onto the forums a wee bit late, so could someone list and link to all the new suggestions to fix or change the bloodlines for Sorcerers? Thanks!
Honestly, this thread seems more for people discussing the flavor of the Sorcerer rather than much in terms of hard mechanics.
-Frank
What about a constant at-will spell?
Like lets say a 1st level spell at first that can be used at will...the first spell they pick.
I wouldn't say a constant at-will ability should ever be above 3rd at 18-20th and perhaps you should only offer a limited spell list, but you could have a list off the bloodlines.
Call it "bloodline mastery" or something. Ok that name kinda sucks but you get my point.
Maybe a list of 3 or 4 spells to choose from per bloodline. The aberrant could be enlarge person (self only), reduce person (self only), and expeditious retreat.
Something along those lines.
An at-will spell power is more powerful than most people give it credit for in actual game-terms, but I think you could make a list to both balance out the bloodlines, give players powerful options, and even add a bit of flavor... you could give a mage armor ability that makes a dragon-bloodline's skin look scaly and reflect the sheen of the dragon they have picked... you could make shocking grasp work with the claw attack...etc.
I'm also down with giving the sorcerer access to quicken spell and have it function normally even if all the others need to be used as a full round action. I think people who don't play alot of wizards typically don't understand that raw power of that feat...it's perhaps the most powerful feat in the game for a spellcaster (at least in the OGL).
This is probably very dumb question, but I know little about sorcerers but would like to, so ... Why do Sorcerers have to make Int based Spellcraft checks, surely these should be Cha based for them?
With the exception of identifying a spell as it is being cast (would a sorcerer even be able to do this, thematically?) surely all the spellcraft related checks that a Sorcerer would make would be helped by their force of character and inherent power, not their ability to reason and remember?
I genuinely think this thread is merely for posterboarding new ideas, rather than the discussion of them. There are simply too many things being tossed around to have a legitimate discussion on any of them here without losing everything in a morass of argument.
That being said: Spellcraft is essentially the knowledge of how magic works, not the ability to use it. A Cleric doesn't use her Wisdom to identify a spell being cast, she uses her intellect and her studies to do so. She uses Wisdom to cast a spell of her own, and doesn't even need any spellcraft to do so, but if she wants to identify someone else's spell she needs Spellcraft and intelligence. The same mechanic exists for Sorcerers. They don't need to know how magic works at all in order to make their magic go off properly. It's a natural thing for them. But if they want to know what other casters are doing, they have to know - and that comes down to Intelligence and skill ranks.
Wizards are inherently better at identifying how magic works. They have to be, because they are the only class in the basic rules which actually has to know how a spell works before they can cast it themselves.
--
But this isn't the place to have such a discussion, and if you disagree with that assessment, or even if you agree with my answer, you should make a new thread to discuss that in. My own version of the overhaul of Sorcerer bloodlines is Here. It is long enough that it would clutter this thread, and there is already enough discussion on it that would drown discourse here. The short version is:
- Sorcerers get fixed theme-related spells for their heritage in addition to their selected spells.
- Sorcerers get bonus class skills based on their power source.
- Bloodline powers are things people can actually use rather than backup weapons that they will presumably purchase replacements for with loose change.
But the discussion and the exact mechanics are there, not here.
-Frank
|
People have flinged their ideas here already, thus I merely sum those I wish to see too.
* Bloodline Spells: Fixes extra spells known.
* Skillful: Increase the skill points of a sorcerer to 4+int. Reasoning follows (niel elaborated the same arguments as well)
* More Bloodlines
Intriguingly, I can't come up with other ways to improve the sorcerer.
|
Dragon Magazine content is all non-OGL and copyright WotC, just like the splatbooks etc.I'd replace the existing bloodline abilities with the bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine (reprinted in Dragon Compendium).
An additional spell known at every level you can cast, thematically linked to the bloodline and generally not spells a sorcerer would normally choose.
Yes, I know.
I meant to say, "with something similar to the bloodline feats" but I was being lazy.
The idea behind the feats isn't copyright.
I will be mining here for some ideas, as there have been some good ones.
Hands J. gloves and hat with flashlight taped to it.
Reminds J. OSHA standards for safety in the workplace require the proper safety equiptment for work in possibly hazardous areas. Red Rule is safety of employee comes first.
I agree with the removal of the added time for meta magic. Since the meta magic feats reguire higher slots, that is enough of a limitation to the...
What about a mechanic that allowed the sorcerer to use meta magic as standard action a number of times per day equal to 1 + their Chr modifier.
Anything beyond that requires the sorcerer to either use meta magic as full round action or make a Concentration check of 10+spell level+1 for each time they used meta magic as a standard that day spell or become Fatigued(or some other appropriate condition)for the remainder of the encounter.
|
|
Thinking about the how a sorcerer could have that floating ability to pick up on spells, I have this to offer up about Psionics. The Idea already exists.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnkno wnPowerFromAnothersPowersKnown
It allows Psionic characters to pick up powers they do not know for a short time but in this form, it's severly limited. The good news, it can easily be adopted for the Sorcerer and not be so limited.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
People have flinged their ideas here already, thus I merely sum those I wish to see too.
* Bloodline Spells: Fixes extra spells known.
* Skillful: Increase the skill points of a sorcerer to 4+int. Reasoning follows (niel elaborated the same arguments as well)
* More BloodlinesIntriguingly, I can't come up with other ways to improve the sorcerer.
I'm reposting my earlier suggestion, as an alternate way to improve the sorcerer, without simply making their spell progression more like a wizard.
I'm throwing out this as another suggestion for sorcerors. Instead of changing their spell progression (which Jason has stated he's very reluctant to do), how about giving them +1 caster level at 1st level, and then again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th?
This would do several things:
1) give them reasons not to prestige class
2) give them an edge over wizards, sure they may get new spell levels 1 level slower, but their spells are more powerful than an wizard of the same level (since the sorcerer's spells are inate, I don't see a logic issue with this)So, a 6th level sorcerer casts fireball at 8th level, for 8d6, and a 2nd level sorcerer casts burning hands at 3rd level for 3d4 as examples. Their spells would also be harder to dispel and penetrate spell resistance easier.
I haven't thought this idea out enough to find any fatal flaws, but figured the boards as a whole will find them if there are some, and I haven't seen this idea suggested before.
I'm sorry if this was already suggested, but if many Bloodlines are so melee oriented (claws are frequent) why sorcerers can't cast in light armor by default? I think it will make some sense.
Again, sorry if I'm repeating somebody.
I would also be happy if the sorcerer would have a spell progression as any other spellcasting class, without 1 level delay of new spell levels.
|
|
The much talked of Claw aka The touch attackFirstly in the case of the abyssal bloodline, i love the claw. And i really dont want to see it go.
I think however that there have been to much of an enphersis on the touch attack with sorcerer.
Catching up a bit here.
From a thematic standpoint, I love the claws and wings and whatnot.
From a mechanical standpoint, handing out claws to guys with d4 HD does seem a little cruel and mocking. Although they would have rocked hard for my invisible Rog/Sor delivering sneak attacks.
My recommendation, if this is revisited, is to make the claws an optional bloodline feat for the appropriate lines, and substitute in some kind of ranged touch attack for the level 1 power.
|
|
Melee-based spells that buff the sorceror or deal out nasty effects would balance it out. Perhaps a "blood rage aura" that gives a sorceror temporary hit points after dealing claw damage and draining the opponent's hit points or Con score?
Oh, I just had a really nasty thought. >:-)
Imagine a sorcerer being able to enter a "battle mode" in which he can't cast spells, but all of his known self-buff or defensive spells are "on", whether they're cat's grace, fire shield, greater invisibility, etc.
Sorc Rage FTW. ;-)
|
|
It's not just the bloodline spells and skill that the sorcerer needs because when it comes to those the wizards will always be able to find something to make up for the fact that they might not have that skill or have that spell, they'll be another spell like the bloodline spell or another supplement book will give the wizard that spell. Special abilities to the bloodline are also needed. This was stated earlier but I'm just suggesting this into the think tank now....
Abyssal should be able to add charisma to atk & dmg for "Claws", Arcane should get mindcast, not have to change cast times for metamagic, or spell resistance / and arcane should have a ranged at will attack like the "elemental touch" the uses non elemental magical damage but is not too high like 1d4 +1/2 level, Celestial bloodline should get "Divine grace", Destined improved countermagic or some time of knowledge/insight ability, Draconic ( no suggestions), Elemental touch should be a ranged attack like "produce flame" that is an attack option and not a standard action,
Fey needs something to help enchantments and some spells of the ranger/druid list, Infernal ( no suggestions), Undead an ability to burn physical attribute points to either increase dc, increase spell damage , or get back spell slots
* mindcast (feat) = for every copy of one spell slot the cast has ready add one to the damage or dc of the spell. All must be in the same level. example a sorc with 4 magic missile and 2 acid arrow can add 4damage to the first magic missile cast but the 2 acid arrows do not count because they are 2nd level slots even though they can be bruned for 1st level spells.
|
|
Ever heard of Tenser's Transformation? (PHB)
Why yes, I have. :-)
The only spell that requires a potion as its consumable material component. I was thinking of it as a template, which is why I included the "cannot cast spells" restriction.
Ok I have a proposal and like to hear your ideas and comments.
What about taking all the transformation stuff out (so to speak most of the actuall bloodline powers) and put those into a Prestige Class.
(something like Bloodline Paragon or so).
And replace the existing Bloodline Powers with something more spell related (like extra spells fitting to the bloodline) and some MINOR bloodline traits.
The reason: I think the sorcerer class FOR ITSELF, should be about developing magic (spell) power, like the wizard does.
The "activation" of slumbering bloodline abilities should be something you can choose or not (like dinying your heritage).
BTW, the Archmage is no part of the wizard class, so...
To be more precise: Let's come up with some cool new ways to use the universal spell slots of the sorcerer for it's full potential.
Just like fueling different bloodline abilities, or creating super-duper effects, I don't know. But I hope you get my point.
|
|
Ok I have a proposal and like to hear your ideas and comments.
What about taking all the transformation stuff out (so to speak most of the actuall bloodline powers) and put those into a Prestige Class.
(something like Bloodline Paragon or so).And replace the existing Bloodline Powers with something more spell related (like extra spells fitting to the bloodline) and some MINOR bloodline traits.
The reason: I think the sorcerer class FOR ITSELF, should be about developing magic (spell) power, like the wizard does.
The "activation" of slumbering bloodline abilities should be something you can choose or not (like dinying your heritage).
BTW, the Archmage is no part of the wizard class, so...
I disagree. I think that the heritage/bloodline specializations are exactly the right direction to go with the Sorcerer -- although the details still need to be hammered out and tested.
The 3.X Sorcerer has for some time needed a specialization option -- both to make him competitive with the Wizard, in terms of customization and theme, and to further distinguish him from the Wizard, at the same time, in terms of giving the Sorcerer abilities that the Wizard cannot easily match.
Just as the school specialization is appropriate for the scholarly Wizard, heritage-based specialization is exactly the right path for the Sorcerer, based on the fundamental concept of the class itself.
I certainly think that the heritage specialization should provide additional, appropriate spells added to the Sorcerer's spell repertoire (see my thread on the Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer). However, I also thematically like the resulting physical transformations as part of some of these specializations. Players who don't want their Sorcerers sprouting claws and wings still have the options of more "vanilla" heritages like Arcane or Destined. :-)
|
|
Just as the school specialization is appropriate for the scholarly Wizard, heritage-based specialization is exactly the right path for the Sorcerer, based on the fundamental concept of the class itself.I certainly think that the heritage specialization should provide additional, appropriate spells added to the Sorcerer's spell repertoire (see my thread on the Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer). However, I also thematically like the resulting physical transformations as part of some of these specializations. Players who don't want their Sorcerers sprouting claws and wings still have the options of more "vanilla" heritages like Arcane or Destined. :-)
Agreed
Also to those of you railing against the touch attacks lets get some things straight, using any of the extra hp options they are tossing out nets you an average of 12 HP if you aren't your races favored class or don't have a high con. Also with a decent dex at low levels and 1 of the 2 armour spells at low level you have a comparable A/C that means that a) the melee touch attack isn't a waste unless you build your sorcerer ignoring it. b) not every heritage has one so if you are that opposed to it, pick a different heritage, or if you're dead set on having that heritage despite the claws, then just use a crossbow anyways, its like people saying get rid of acid splash because no one ever uses that spell.
I can understand the argument about some of the higher level blast abilities that are weak in comparison to spells learnable at the same level, in fact once I playtest at those levels, I will probably be in the pool arguing with them, but it's so obvious that those who complain about the touch attacks in most instances haven't really playtested it and just don't like it because they don't like the idea.
Finally I completely agree with eschew materials being an automatic bonus feat at first level like scribe scroll for wizards. and i find it funny that the idea of seeing = learning popped up on this forum since that's how I've always ruled that sorcerers learn new spells. I'd love to see that mechanically fleshed out.
I admit, I have not had a chance to test out the new sorcerer. But I do know I don't like how the Bloodlines transformers the player into the creature they are getting their powers from. Much like another poster I feel that should be a prestige class (maybe one with no pre-requisites). Here is a sum up of some ideas I had and some that I though were really good from the thread. I am not addressing bloodline abilities just the Sorcerer itself.
I think they should get skill four points per level, and Use Magic Device as a class skill. To go along with that I would like maybe a class feature that gave them a bonus to this. I call it “Feel it out.” (I know, name isn’t great, work with me) And it represents the Sorcerers natural knack for magic and his/hers ability to feel how something works.
The Sorcerer would gain a bonus to his UMD check equal to his level at first level.
I see this progressing into a series of abilities that goes something like this:
At 2nd Level: Read Magic at will
3rd level: Detect Magic at will
4th level: Identify at will.
I also believe in the Eschew Materials feat for free at first level, this seems a natural fit for the sorcerer.
I also like the idea that perhaps the caster level of the Sorcerer should be increased while casting spells. But a +1 caster level per 5 levels seems a bit to much and I think a +1 caster level at first level, and again every 10 levels there after (11,21,31) would scale nicely. I call that ability “Raw Power.”
I also have the idea to allow Sorcerer’s the ability to add there Charisma Modifier to saving throws vs. spells and spell like effects. It is limited in that its only vs. spells and effects and not unprecedented as dwarves have (had? Did this change?) something similar. I call that ability “Arcane Defense” and make it available at 5th level.
To address the use of meteamagic feats, at 7th level I like the idea that Sorcerers have “Power to Burn” and wouldn’t mind them having to spend the higher spell slot and the original spell slot in order to maintain a normal casting time.
At 10th Level I like KnightErrantJr’s Floating Spell Slot. - "allowing a sorcerer one "floating" spell known that the sorcerer can swap out each day would be interesting, i.e. the sorcerer makes a spellcraft check and see a spell that one of the bad guys is using, figures out the basics of it, and can use it himself from that point on, unless he "unlearns" it the next day."
In addition I wouldn’t mind seeing a couple of feats that did something similar to these.
Arcane Armor: AC bonus equal to the highest Spell level still available to cast.
and
elvnsword ‘s Final Strike: by expending every spell use you have for the day you deal to yourself and everyone in 150ft damage equal to 1d4 per spell used in this fashion. This damage hits you as well, and you may not make the reflex save for half.
I know I don’t have a lot to go on but these abilities really move the sorcerer more into the vision I had for the class when I first heard about it.
|
|
Also to those of you railing against the touch attacks lets get some things straight, using any of the extra hp options they are tossing out nets you an average of 12 HP if you aren't your races favored class or don't have a high con. Also with a decent dex at low levels and 1 of the 2 armour spells at low level you have a comparable A/C that means that a) the melee touch attack isn't a waste unless you build your sorcerer ignoring it. b) not every heritage has one so if you are that opposed to it, pick a different heritage, or if you're dead set on having that heritage despite the claws, then just use a crossbow anyways, its like people saying get rid of acid splash because no one ever uses that spell.
It's actually funny you should mention acid splash. With unlimited cantrips, I can cast all the acid splashes I want. With the Point Blank Shot feat, a particularly popular feat with a certain kind of sorcerer, my average damage with acid splash is 3 hp, and the attack is a ranged touch attack - not only does this mean that I'm going to be roughly 30 ft from the guys trying to kill me whenever possible, but it's also Dex based and has a +1 attack bonus - for most sorcerers, that's gonna be a signficantly better attack roll than a melee touch attack.
The average damage of a grave touch at first level is 3.5 hp.
Now, you tell me - with no armor and the lowest hit points in the game, is the extra .5 hp of damage worth getting into melee over?
Repost (the following is in addition to the bloodline changes):
A fix that I would suggest for the sorcerer is giving them a domain that grants an at-will power, bonus spells known, and a special ability. For instance:
Special: All fire spells you cast get a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1 + your Charisma bonus. This bonus to damage improves by +1 for every five levels you have. This bonus only applies once per spell, not once per ray, missile, etc.
At-will: As a standard action, you can shoot a ray of fire. This has a range of 30', and it does 1d6 points of damage, +1 damage for every two levels that you have. Your special ability applies to this so that it has a modicum of use at high levels.
1: Burning hands.
2: Scorching ray.
3: Fireball.
4: Wall of fire.
5: Cone of fire (works like cone of cold).
6: Fire seeds.
7: Delayed blast fireball, firestorm.
8: Incendiary cloud.
9: Meteor swarm, elemental swarm.
(This would allow the sorcerer to have a number of thematic spells while freeing him to take some utility spells as well, greatly increasing his efficacy.)
I bring up this again to show that it could be done. We can change the durations and what not but the mechanics already exist, just in another form.
Good point... I agree that a floating slot would be great, but my players seem to desire the ability to use it to more be more versitile (sp),
with that in mind, I came up with the following addedum:"Floating Spell Slot" Beginnning at 1rst level, a sorcerer gains 1 extra spell slot at they're highest effective level. They can at any time make a spellcraft check (DC=CL+Spell Level) as a move action that does provoke attacks of oppurtunity (sp) to identify an opposing caster's spell (divine or arcane), and can adopt that spell assuming it's level does not EXCEED they're spell slots level. They can then cast this spell with uses of it's equivilant level spell use per day, or as a swift action, remove the spell from they're floating slot. A Sorcerer who sleeps 8 hours with a spell intact in his slot, may choose to replace a known spell with his current "floating spell" selection. This final ability does not apply to spells of the Healing Subschool.
That would I think give it an edge over the Wizard, make the Sorcerer into a Great counterspell user, (makes sense for somone who can sense the ebb and flow of magic from birth), and sets up how they are so in tune with magic to begin with.
I am not particularly fond of one aspect of the Bloodlines traits... Do you realize how many people in converted modules, would have wings... Just food for thought...
~Elvnsword
|
|
I bring up this again to show that it could be done. We can change the durations and what not but the mechanics already exist, just in another form.
Good point... I agree that a floating slot would be great, but my players seem to desire the ability to use it to more be more versitile (sp),
with that in mind, I came up with the following addedum:"Floating Spell Slot" Beginnning at 1rst level, a sorcerer gains 1 extra spell slot at they're highest effective level. They can at any time make a spellcraft check (DC=CL+Spell Level) as a move action that does provoke attacks of oppurtunity (sp) to identify an opposing caster's spell (divine or arcane), and can adopt that spell assuming it's level does not EXCEED they're spell slots level. They can then cast this spell with uses of it's equivilant level spell use per day, or as a swift action, remove the spell from they're floating slot. A Sorcerer who sleeps 8 hours with a spell intact in his slot, may choose to replace a known spell with his current "floating spell" selection. This final ability does not apply to spells of the Healing Subschool.
That would I think give it an edge over the Wizard, make the Sorcerer into a Great counterspell user, (makes sense for somone who can sense the ebb and flow of magic from birth), and sets up how they are so in tune with magic to begin with.
I am not particularly fond of one aspect of the Bloodlines traits... Do you realize how many people in converted modules, would have wings... Just food for thought...
~Elvnsword
Yeah none, they'd all be arcane or destined sorcerors. Even if you have a distant trace of demonic in your blood, you can still take the arcane or destined bloodlines and say that your heritage just doesn't manifest.
I am still for putting the metamorphosis into a prestige class!
I've houseruled in Eschew Materials straightaway (as mentioned by earlier posters) as it really seems to work with the sorcerer.
One bloodline question that's been bugging me that hasn't turned up in a playtest yet (1st level, so...) is that some of the bloodlines hhave the ability to sprout wings at higher levels.
How does that work with armour and clothes?
Do they have to get them specially made with slots to fit their wings through?
Can they bind down and conceal their wings (if they're the Draconic or Infernal ones, which appear to be there all the time, rather than the Celestials which appear to be growable-at-will?)
Do they have to take off their top to spread their wings (if they're growable or bound), and if so how long does that take? (This could be important if they're falling at the time...)
I'm not sure the added flavour you get from the wings makes up for the confusions listed above.
Finally, the "One of Us" at 20th level for the Undead bloodline seems a bit enforced - I love the flavour of being ignored by undead, but feel that "and then the character starts to rot" should be optional. Cos that's a bit icky, really.
That's just another point for why these special abilities should be optional and fueled with spell slots to be activated!
I haven't been patrolling the threads, but it seems there's a general consesnus that bloodlines should grant at least one class skills. I think maybe they should also get a free Skill Focus in an already class skill. Try these:
Abyssal - SF(Intimidate), Perception
Arcane - SF(Spellcraft), Know(all)
Celestial - SF(?), Heal
Destined - SF(UMD), Perception
Draconic - SF(Appraise), Linguistics
Elemental - SF(?), Acrobatics
Fey - SF(?), Handle Animal
Infernal - SF(Bluff), Stealth
Undead - SF(?), Know(Religion)
|
Just Chiming in here with my suggestions and comments;
Give Sorcerers an Average BAB
Do NOT give sorcerers armor proficiency or the ability to cast in armor light without penalty.
Do NOT alter their spellcasting progression.
Give them Eschew materials feat at 1st level.
Give them the Summon Familiar feat or the Armored Mage (light) feat but not both and not at 1st level (perhaps at 2nd to counter the dead level from the slower spell progression).
Add some variant to just touch attacks by perhaps granting melee weapon channeling instead (Personally I think this will work better for celestial, infernal, and destined instead of touch attacks). This would also help prevent the obvious monk/sorcerer combo becoming the norm while helping to strengthen the idea of spellswords using fighter/sorcerer instead of fighter/wizard.
|
|
I've been reading over this stuff for the last few weeks and thought I'd post some feedback (first post ever actually).
My group played a few combat scenarios through with different combinations of Sorceror and Wizard this last week. They were parties of five with Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Sorceror. We tried low level (1st and 2nd) and mid range (10 - 12) for a typical day of say 4 combats at the appropriate CR. Combats had lots of minion types as well as a few heavy hitters. We used 32 point buys system and spent according to what we thought were the strengths of each bloodline. We also used the max hit dice +con for first and minimum half hit dice per level option. The new D6 hit dice are nice :) We also used spell compendium as a source for spells.
At low level we found the sorceror held their own if they had touch attacks and tried them out. Of course if you rolled low damage output on that first shot things were interesting, but the fact its a touch attack meant we hit fairly well. The standard claw attacks didn't have much chance though, even against minion types. We felt these bloodlines (Abyssal and Draconic) needed some type of incentive to use this option when the spells ran out. A boost in strength so you can actually hit would be good. However we tried this and with unlimited potential for the attack it means that our sorc specced for combat was doing as well as our fighter in terms of number of hits (but still hurting when the beasties hit back). Perhaps mitigate this ability with a timer or similar effect to rage fatigue. We always use mage armour for our casters so AC didn't worry us overly.
At higher levels differences started showing through. Our specialist wizard using the bonded item could cast as many spells as our Sorcerors which we found odd given how things used to play out in the previous rules. Damage output was still higher with the sorceror as they could just keep casting the spells that worked wereas our Wizard had selected a range of spells. However the sorcerors felt disappointed about not having spells left when the wizard had run out (this used to be a source of great torment to our wizard player when the sorceror laughed everytime he had to pull out his wands or crossbow). The wizards low level ability was still mildly useful whereas the touch effects and claw attacks of the sorceror were just suicide. Note that, despite trying to build to type, our sorceror players still went heavy on the evocation spells as they felt close combat was for desperate measures only and didn't feel spending spell slots on personal buffs for combat was an option.
My groups advice on this issue is:
Include some form of personal buffing on the bloodlines that use the claws in particular. (abyssal sorcerors should be mean in combat but not for long periods of time, think of a feral animal being cornered)
Give some of the bloodlines the option of range attack rather than touch attack, this lets people choose the style that best suits them.
Lose the limit on the Clestial healing touch. Some our players thought this would be great as low level back up healer to further let our cleric do his thing.
More spells has already been suggested here. None us feel the progression needs to change but certainly the fact that at higher levels you should have more casting potential than a wizard was strongly expressed by both of our Sorceror players.
Bring the energy resitances of the bloodlines in line with each other (ie the same as for the Elemental bloodline). As a DM though I feel ER of 10 at level 3 is a bit high, but then I like to watch my players sweat a bit.
We liked the wings :) It was fun having characters fly around without having to cast the spell or use a magic item first.
We liked the high level aberrant bloodline for its wierdness and the fact you could deliver touch attacks at ten feet, somthing we selected spells for.
Hope this is useful.
Oh yeah, my username has a spelling mistake that I didn't pick up until I started typing this, it was meant to be Wrath (how embarrasing....and on a public forum too)
Cheers
Just Chiming in here with my suggestions and comments;
Give Sorcerers an Average BAB
Do NOT give sorcerers armor proficiency or the ability to cast in armor light without penalty.
Do NOT alter their spellcasting progression.
Give them Eschew materials feat at 1st level.
Give them the Summon Familiar feat or the Armored Mage (light) feat but not both and not at 1st level (perhaps at 2nd to counter the dead level from the slower spell progression).
Add some variant to just touch attacks by perhaps granting melee weapon channeling instead (Personally I think this will work better for celestial, infernal, and destined instead of touch attacks). This would also help prevent the obvious monk/sorcerer combo becoming the norm while helping to strengthen the idea of spellswords using fighter/sorcerer instead of fighter/wizard.
This is fairly close to the ways I was thinking of changing the Sorcerer.
Just Chiming in here with my suggestions and comments;
Give Sorcerers an Average BAB
Do NOT give sorcerers armor proficiency or the ability to cast in armor light without penalty.
Do NOT alter their spellcasting progression.
Give them Eschew materials feat at 1st level.
Give them the Summon Familiar feat or the Armored Mage (light) feat but not both and not at 1st level (perhaps at 2nd to counter the dead level from the slower spell progression).
Add some variant to just touch attacks by perhaps granting melee weapon channeling instead (Personally I think this will work better for celestial, infernal, and destined instead of touch attacks). This would also help prevent the obvious monk/sorcerer combo becoming the norm while helping to strengthen the idea of spellswords using fighter/sorcerer instead of fighter/wizard.
Another vote for this set of fixes. Mix 'em up - have some bloodlines be stronger on touch, some on channel, some on ray based on lineage concept...
|
|
Ok these are still very rough and could use some polish and maybe a paint job.
I'd appreciate any help with the text and the rules lawyering.
There are two flavors here. They are basically the same thing but in different formats. I'm not sure which one would be more appropriate. Both versions would have supporting feats that improve the base ability by giving it different energy descriptors or improving the attacks ability to bypass Damage Reduction.
This is the feat version that is meant for any arcane spontaneous caster. The end ability to deal out 9d6 damage per round may seem to be a bit steep but remember that rogues can do that with each attack! I'm not sure if I want a sorcerer to be able to drop a quickened spell and then *FOOM!* in the same round. That is assuming that the meta magic penalty will be 'disappeared' from the final alpha or home ruled away. If that assumption doesn't hold then limiting them to either or is probably better in the long run.
Channel Energy (Arcane)
=============================
Prerequisite: The ability to cast arcane spells spontaneously.
Benefit: You gain the ability to channel arcane energy into your attacks by sacrificing the use of one of your spells per day.
For every level of the spell per day that you sacrifice you gain an attack that does 1d6 damage to a max of 9d6 for a 9th level spell. This attack is considered to be an at will spell-like ability that has no saving throw. Any feat or ability that can be applied to a spell-like ability can be used with Channel Energy (Arcane). Channel Energy (Arcane) is considered to be "Magic" for the purposes of Damage Reduction. Channel Energy is a standard action and can be used once per round.
The Channel Energy attack can be delivered via a ranged touch attack with a range of 30ft and a maximum of five range increments or as melee touch attack. The attack has a critical of 20/x2. Channel Energy (Arcane) qualifies for feats such as Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, etc.
This version is meant to be a class ability that a sorcerer receives at first level. It follows the precedent set by the cleric but changed to reflect its arcane origin by making it a spell-like ability rather than supernatural.
Channel Energy - Arcane (Spell-Like)
=======================================
Any sorcerer has the power to channel raw arcane energy into physical attacks. The attack takes the form of an at will spell-like ability that can be used as a standard action once per round. This attack has no saving throw but is subject to spell resistance. Feats and abilities that affect the sorcerer's ability to bypass spell resistance can be applied to Channel Arcane Energy. As a spell-like ability meta magic feats can not be applied to the channel arcane energy power. The attack is considered to be 'magic' for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
To use the power the sorcerer must sacrifice one of her spells per day.(NOT SPELLS KNOWN!) The attack does 1d6 damage for each level of the spell per day sacrificed to a max of 9d6 for a 9th level spell. The decision to sacrifice a spell is done once per day, usually after the sorcerer has rested, and grants the sorcerer the ability to channel energy for the rest of the day. The attack can be delivered via a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 ft and a maximum of five range increments or as a melee touch attack. The attack has a critical of 20/x2. Channel Energy (Arcane) qualifies for feats such as Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, etc.
Like I said this needs some work and balancing. The difference between the feat and the class ability would need to be tightened up for one. They are supposed to be almost exactly the same.
A variant would be to give the sorcerer the ability to use this 3x per day plus Charisma modifier with a feat to increase the uses per day. I'd rather have them run around blasting everything in sight but that's just me.
The massive amounts of damage that can be doled out on a successful critical at high levels is quite scary.
There are a couple of way to fix this:
1) change damage to 1d6 base +1 per level. My only problem with this is that the damage becomes a joke at higher levels. 1d6+20 at 20th level?! WeeeeeeEEEeeee.
2) limit a successful crit to max damage. This is a house rule that I've used for awhile. I kept the crit range but have crits simply do max damage without the need to confirm the crit. It cuts down on unnecessary die rolling. It also makes fighter a lot more lethal but that's another thread ;-]. For the sorcerer it could simply be a part of the power's description that it only does max damage on a successful crit.
3) find another way to figure the damage. As long as the sorcerer gets to run around blasting everything with raw magic then I'm happy.
I like using the sorcerer's spells per day because it uses one of the sorcerer's biggest resources to his advantage. As a sorcerer progresses she could gain the ability to add in energy descriptors by feat or class ability in return for sacrificing spells per day of a certain level.
This would also play into the bloodlines because each bloodline would add its own flavor to the shape and appearance of the attack. For example you could have a blast of cold wailing energy, a gout of viscous ichor or something similar which wouldn't change the structure of the attack but would make it look really cool. Melee attacks would have a similar thematic effect.
I don't think this would mess with backward compatibility since you're are adding and not subtracting.
The rest of this has nothing to do with the above but are simply my two cents on other changes that I'd like to see made to the sorcerer.
1) meta magic penalty goes away.
Every game I've ever played in house ruled this anyway so why not make it official? If it absolutely must stay then I have other thoughts on how to work with that limitation but I'll save those for another thread.
2) Charisma mod to spells known.
a half a dozen or less spells added to the sorcerer's repertoire for each spell level will make her more versatile without stepping on the wizard's know-it-all toes. Nothing game breaking here.
3) Instead of each bloodline having a set list of spells that they can choose as extra spells give them some kind of bonus for choosing spells that fit into the theme of the chosen bloodline. +1 caster level to all spells with the cold, xxx and xxx descriptors for the Undead for example. Another example would be +1 caster level to all spells with the acid, xxx, xxx descriptors for Aberrant blooded sorcerers. This would stop the sorcerer from becoming too predictable.
4) a class ability similar to the one that sorcerers have in the Complete Book of Eldritch Might would be nice. Those sorcerers simply don't need material components. They pay xp instead but I don't like using xp as a form of currency so we may need another way to pay to play. One hit point per 1000gp of material component value?
Then again 'Eschew material' would work fine without a lot of unnecessary work.... Maybe have it scale by level so that the gp limit the sorcerer can ignore gets bigger and bigger until 20th level were they simply don't need material components.
Anyway, that's all I have for now. My brain hurts. I'm gonna go watch Invader Zim and then play KotOR...
so have at it!
SM