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Maybe this belongs in the feat section but I think this single feat makes a huge difference with the druids relative power in the game.
What is conspicuous in it's absence in the latest Alpha is any reference to Natural Spell. Considering it is absent from the Alpha and not explicitly called out I have to assume that it is still considered a viable feat. So is Pathfinder RPG still going to have 650 lbs apes swinging scimitars and blasting spells left and right?
Personally, I'm not sure where I sit on this issue I do think that wild shape is great and love druids using it and casting spells but it just takes the power level a little over the top (especially as you add additional monster manuals with more and more creature options).
The best suggestion I've heard is allowing Natural Spell but treating it as +1 level meta-magic. This would force casters into making a choice at the beginning of the session, memorize the spells without the metamagic for more powerful spells or use memorize the meta-magic version and spend combat in your favorite beast shape. This isn't my idea but it is the best compromise I've heard of rules wise for Natural Spell.
I guess this should go into rules suggestions... except I feel that it's absence from the Alpha where the druid is posted is a significant omission since it effects the druids power so dramatically it should be explicitly included or excluded.
-_ Dennis
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The best suggestion for me and my game was to break out the Ban-Hammer on it. It's the only core feat I won't allow into my game.
I spent quite a bit of time on the ENWorld's Rules Forum, and 99% of the complaints about druids being overpowered could be solved by removing this one feat.
I certainly hope Natural Spell doesn't defile the Pathfinder RPG, and if it does, it certainly won't darken the door of any game I run.
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The best suggestion for me and my game was to break out the Ban-Hammer on it. It's the only core feat I won't allow into my game.I spent quite a bit of time on the ENWorld's Rules Forum, and 99% of the complaints about druids being overpowered could be solved by removing this one feat.
I certainly hope Natural Spell doesn't defile the Pathfinder RPG, and if it does, it certainly won't darken the door of any game I run.
This is why I wanted to bring it up. I've heard a lot of DMs say this was a game-breaker. I posted what I thought was the best suggestion above. Keep in mind the druid has already been toned down a bit by the reduction of max spells/ level. As I said I'm a fan of turning Natural Spell into Meta Magic...
I just put a "increases the spell by +1 level" on Natural spell (with the ability to add it on the fly in animal form). It's still worth taking, but doesn't make it "must have".
Also, I like to see less stress on the druid using shape change for combat, and it being also far more viable for other uses. It shouldn't be the druid's standard fallback method for combat. A humanoid druid chunking spells and swinging a scimitar should be no worse or better than an animal-shaped druid.
Just different.
I do not allow natural spell in my game.
It's not in the OGL, so I wouldn't expect to see it here in the alpha.
Still Spell, Silent Spell and possibly Eschew Materials. There you go, Natural Spell away. ; )
I do not allow natural spell in my game.
It's not in the OGL, so I wouldn't expect to see it here in the alpha.
What do you mean "not in the OGL"?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell
Frankly, I don't see what the problem with Natural Spell is now. Wildshape is less powerful, so there's no harm in allowing spellcasting while wild shaped.
I just put a "increases the spell by +1 level" on Natural spell (with the ability to add it on the fly in animal form). It's still worth taking, but doesn't make it "must have".
Also, I like to see less stress on the druid using shape change for combat, and it being also far more viable for other uses. It shouldn't be the druid's standard fallback method for combat. A humanoid druid chunking spells and swinging a scimitar should be no worse or better than an animal-shaped druid.
Just different.
Best fix for natural spell? Emphase that the druid cannot communicate with the other players. If you make it meta-magic with a +1 penality you support extensive pre-buffing before the change.
And in alpha, it isn'nt really good to wildshape, even if you retain spellcasing. At least at lower level, your AC goes down. If you have found a magic weapon or use normally shilleagh, your damge goes down, too.
It has only utiliy for a quick movement boost. At it doesn't increase your landspeed.
I like to play druids, and I will not take the SRD Natural Spell in Pathfinder. It's just not worth it. CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid zilla) is dead. Long live Co zilla (Cleric only zilla)!
And in alpha, it isn'nt really good to wildshape, even if you retain spellcasing. At least at lower level, your AC goes down. If you have found a magic weapon or use normally shilleagh, your damge goes down, too.
It has only utiliy for a quick movement boost. At it doesn't increase your landspeed.
Again, I'd have to see this playtested. Suppose we have a 28 point-buy level 5 human druid -- STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 10 (human +2 and level 4 stat bump go into WIS).
Using 3.5 wild shape, she turns into a leopard. Her new stats are STR 16, DEX 19, CON 15 and AC 15. She also gets pounce and improved grab.
Using Pathfinder wild shape, she turns into a leopard. Her new stats are STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14 and AC 14. She also gets scent and low-light vision.
Verdict: Losing pounce and improved grab hurts (although she gets them back at level 6 when her wild shape improves to Beast Shape II), but otherwise it's about the same.
Let's look at the same character at level 8.
Using 3.5 wild shape, she can turn into a polar bear. Her new stats are STR 27, DEX 13, CON 19 and AC 15. She also gets improved grab.
Using Pathfinder wild shape, she can turn into an elephant. Her new stats are STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14 and AC 16. She also gets trample, lowlight vision and scent.
Verdict: The 3.5 druid can get a huge strength score, bigger than most fighters or barbarians of a similar level. The Pathfinder druid has a more reasonable strength score and is about the same in terms of AC.
This is why I wanted to bring it up. I've heard a lot of DMs say this was a game-breaker. I posted what I thought was the best suggestion above. Keep in mind the druid has already been toned down a bit by the reduction of max spells/ level. As I said I'm a fan of turning Natural Spell into Meta Magic...
The best suggestion for me and my game was to break out the Ban-Hammer on it. It's the only core feat I won't allow into my game.I spent quite a bit of time on the ENWorld's Rules Forum, and 99% of the complaints about druids being overpowered could be solved by removing this one feat.
I certainly hope Natural Spell doesn't defile the Pathfinder RPG, and if it does, it certainly won't darken the door of any game I run.
Yes, because it's the spell-slinging ape that breaks the druid... and not the, you know, spells they cast. Or the fact that every book gives all druids, everywhere, new spell choices, whether it makes sense or not.
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Yes, because it's the spell-slinging ape that breaks the druid... and not the, you know, spells they cast.
I agree this is really the big issue and I disagree with some people who suggest that the changes to Wild Shape AKA "Beast Form I,II,III" are the complete answer.
I'm not sure, I haven't tried to power game this yet but to me at 6th level the Elemental Body forms look particularly appealing and can speak (countering one of the big disadvantages of Wild Shape). You could argue that they only speak the language of the elemental but it wouldn't be too hard to get someone in the party to pick up a language or to get a magic item to speak it.
Heck... Elemental Body I for hours at a time at 6th level alone is pretty powerful without natural spell. Small Elementals aren't the strongest combat forms but defensively and for utility purposes they are awesome. Earth Glide, Fly 60/ Perfect combined with a decent AC, and strength or dexterity buff... add in spellcasting and some of the great self buffing that druids have and it's pretty awesome.
Or the fact that every book gives all druids, everywhere, new spell choices, whether it makes sense or not.
Pathfinder cannot fix the fact that spells appear in every new splat book... and is not being balanced against every splatbook out there. There is no way Paizo can salvage the splatbook issue because it's all WotC proprietary content. The best they can do is take the core SRD content and balance it and the let the DMs make their own judgement about including supplemental content.
-- Dennis
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I vaguely recall that Natural Spell was a Metamagic feat once upon a time, meaning that the spell had to prepared for use while in Wild Shape, and that the spell would therefore not be available for use when not in Wild Shape.
Seemed balanced, under those restrictions. The Druid would have a certain number of spells he could cast in Wild Shape, and a few that he had prepared to be usable when he wasn't in Wild Shape (since he's got to get up a few levels before he's going to be able to spend the whole day in Wild Shape, and, in many campaigns, might not be able to spend his whole day in animal form for practical reasons).
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Edit: I don't know if you saw it in my post, but I posted the +1 metamagic suggestion on the WotC forums quite a while ago in a thread debating wild shape vs. shapechange from PH2
I'm not sure what the source of my idea was, I encountered it some time ago and it seems like such an elegant fix that I latched on to it.
-Dennis
search my name. I started a thread that addresses these issues and you might like what I've come up with. "Constructive Druid fix thread"
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search my name. I started a thread that addresses these issues and you might like what I've come up with. "Constructive Druid fix thread"
You have spammed pretty much every druid thread with this message. I think anyone who is at all interested in the druid knows about that thread 6 times over now.
To me and likely others, spamming the board about your post is a major turn off.
there are a half-dozen threads on this about people wanting to know if they get all four natural attacks from turning into a deinonychus. Each of these threads are just a circle jerk of not giving this company any real feedback or constructive help to making this something we all enjoy.
Everyone has already stated that the shape spells don't quite work, and need more wording, and everyone has already brought up all the 3.x balance problems with the class ad nausea. They've mentioned that the armor/weapons section for the class doesn't quite say what armors you really are limited to. I'm sorry I'm trying to come up with ideas just like anyone else and would like some feedback.
And I posted this in these threads because all these groups should be working together to make the class, I presume we all really enjoy, into something that we still all like in this new system, but since each one has a lack of direction and consistent subject matter, I thought I'd just say, hey lets all try to actually work together on this. I have some ideas you have some ideas.
Also, everyone is treating this like its a mostly final version. This system is in ALPHA, which means anything could change as long as it can work within the compatibility framework that Paizo is trying really hard to make work for us. People are providing tweaks to the alpha material, but that is what you do in a beta or other pre-release version. This class has any number of ways that it could be changed to keep it balanced, compatible, and pleasurable to those of us that play it most often. So there!
Anyway, I mean well so you can be "turned off" to whatever you feel like. Why is every nameless forum poster on the internet so stubborn, critical, and unfriendly!?
I'm not sure, I haven't tried to power game this yet but to me at 6th level the Elemental Body forms look particularly appealing and can speak (countering one of the big disadvantages of Wild Shape). You could argue that they only speak the language of the elemental but it wouldn't be too hard to get someone in the party to pick up a language or to get a magic item to speak it.
Heck... Elemental Body I for hours at a time at 6th level alone is pretty powerful without natural spell. Small Elementals aren't the strongest combat forms but defensively and for utility purposes they are awesome. Earth Glide, Fly 60/ Perfect combined with a decent AC, and strength or dexterity buff... add in spellcasting and some of the great self buffing that druids have and it's pretty awesome.
[Back on topic.]
I agree that Earth Glide or fly 60' (perfect) for hours at a time is probably a little too good for a level 6 ability. But I still don't think the "spell-casting ape" is a big problem with the Pathfinder wild shape; the "ape" is really just a slightly buffed druid in this case. I'd love to see it playtested, but I haven't seen any posts on the subject yet.|
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Ogre, I can see with only a few posts here you maybe haven't fully grokked yet that we're a bit less formal here. Blatant flaming and calling people out are still no-no's (although they unfortunately do happen from time to time), but posting "XXY" in an "XYX" thread isn't usually considered sufficient cause for scolding, banning, or tarring and feathering.
Granted, it would be nice if everyone kept the playtesting in one area, and the community discussion in another... but it's kind of too late for that. Also, often the playtesting leads to discussion (which is good), and every so often the discussion actually leads to playtesting (even better).
Hmm...
I was attempting to politely point out something that is commonly considered rude behavior on a forum. Clearly, I was not successful in being polite about it at all.
James, please accept my apologies. I was not trying to dress you down or call you out, and my post was intended to be a polite comment about the crossposting.
I was attempting to politely point out something that is commonly considered rude behavior on a forum. Clearly, I was not successful in being polite about it at all. James, please accept my apologies. I was not trying to dress you down or call you out, and my post was intended to be a polite comment about the crossposting.
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I agree that Earth Glide or fly 60' (perfect) for hours at a time is probably a little too good for a level 6 ability. But I still don't think the "spell-casting ape" is a big problem with the Pathfinder wild shape; the "ape" is really just a slightly buffed druid in this case. I'd love to see it playtested, but I haven't seen any posts on the subject yet.
Unfortunately my gaming time has been seriously limited lately. :(
I agree that the new wild shape/ natural spell is vastly less broken than the 3.5 version. I'm just going to have to twist someone's arm to get them to DM so I can see how much I push this.
-- Dennis
no problem, fellow poster.
Excuse my ignorance, but what about the wild-shaped ape is more abusive than other forms with Natural Spell?
Excuse my ignorance, but what about the wild-shaped ape is more abusive than other forms with Natural Spell?
Well, an ape is the right shape to use magic items designed for a humanoid.
But if you want, replace "ape" with "dire bear" or any other 3.5 wild shape form you think is overpowered.
Yeah, I just mentioned that one because it allows for all you're humanoid gear to be affective, where they wouldn't all be if you were a bear or cat or bird.
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Excuse my ignorance, but what about the wild-shaped ape is more abusive than other forms with Natural Spell?
To be honest there is nothing particularly more broken about the Ape than any other shape. There are in fact much more broken shapes out there. The big issue with wild shape is that you have a character that is capable of full spell casting plus capable of being highly effective in melee simultaneously. It's been argued (effectively) that the druid is actually a more effective melee combatant in certain forms than the fighter.
The cleric has similar issues however much of the problems with the cleric are related to non-core feats, spells, and items while the issues with the druid mostly relate to wild shape and natural spell, all from core.
yep.
So let's assume, after all our agreement from across the boards, how unbalanced is the druid class if straight at the beginning there is no core use of Natural Spell in PRGP?
If there's not NS, then i use wild shape to become a lion. I have some natural attacks, little natural armor, beefier stats for melee, but I can't use any of my magical gear a lion couldn't wear/use or cast spells...unless you pick the domain ability in which case you can use your spell-like domain powers of that list. I think it's pretty much balanced there. (You still need to tone down wild shape to make them comparable to a full BAB combatant without completely outdoing them for (X)hours/day.
Or has anyone suggested that you just make wild shape by minutes instead of hours? You could make the at will power just a couple levels lower, and boost the overall power of the ability because it would have a shorter duration. that wouldn't cause any compatibility issue I can think of right this second. Maybe give just a few more uses of it /day, if it's kept at this current much lower power level.
How important is it to "us" druid players that our ability last for hours/day? Outside of story/role play application, it usually causes problems being in an animal shape for 5+ hours a day anyway.
Ooh. just thought of something else. If you lower the duration of wild shape and leave the uses/day the same, you might complain that you don't get to stay in an animal shape all the time like a 3.5 druid so how about this:
At like lvl 15, you get to pick just one animal or magical beast you could become and have it as an alternate form. so at higher level you always have that one shape that "you" are known for, be it a bear, tiger, griffin, shark, whatever. Or if you liked this idea, you could get rid of the at will power and have this power get a second and third form btw 17-20th like 3.5 elemental wild shape is. I think that would be a super-fun power to get, but then if it's an altered form, you might get to use spells in it...not sure again, off the top of my head.
Or the fact that every book gives all druids, everywhere, new spell choices, whether it makes sense or not.Pathfinder cannot fix the fact that spells appear in every new splat book... and is not being balanced against every splatbook out there. There is no way Paizo can salvage the splatbook issue because it's all WotC proprietary content. The best they can do is take the core SRD content and balance it and the let the DMs make their own judgement about including supplemental content.
-- Dennis
actually, it can, by saying that druids get to pick a small number of logical spells when they pick from splat books, not with examples, but with numbers, ie, "Druids can pick one non-core spell at each level which is logical for their background, area, experience, etc."
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[Back on topic.]
I agree that Earth Glide or fly 60' (perfect) for hours at a time is probably a little too good for a level 6 ability. But I still don't think the "spell-casting ape" is a big problem with the Pathfinder wild shape; the "ape" is really just a slightly buffed druid in this case. I'd love to see it playtested, but I haven't seen any posts on the subject yet.
I know I replied to this already but I've thought about this a little more and I think I sort of missed the point previously.
Wild shape is probably one of the most flexible abilities in the game, it is I think quite challenging to fix them all without making wild shape something completely different from what it is.
I think you are right that wildshape is much less capable of creating game breaking melee forms. Some of that discussion I guess should be focused on the Beast Shape spell since they are tied together. I think there are still some holes with special attacks, trample, and multi attacks.
The flying/ earthglide issue is separate, you are right that those forms are not particularly combat worthy. They are quite powerful in their own right though, and I'm certain there are other shapes which are equally nasty. Again, I need to make some time to playtest.
-- Dennis
Yeah, I just mentioned that one because it allows for all you're humanoid gear to be affective, where they wouldn't all be if you were a bear or cat or bird.
Actually, in our group, it came down to this: If the shape of a parrot doesn't allow you speak, the shape of an ape (or monkey) shouldn't allow you to use weapons or activate magic item (even with Natural Spell).
You could still wear and benefit from certain magic items that didn't need to be activated and that would fit the form but you had to take them off before changing and put them back on in the new form, usually rings and a necklace, sometimes belt and vest .|
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yep.
So let's assume, after all our agreement from across the boards, how unbalanced is the druid class if straight at the beginning there is no core use of Natural Spell in PRGP?
If there's not NS, then i use wild shape to become a lion. I have some natural attacks, little natural armor, beefier stats for melee, but I can't use any of my magical gear a lion couldn't wear/use or cast spells...unless you pick the domain ability in which case you can use your spell-like domain powers of that list. I think it's pretty much balanced there. (You still need to tone down wild shape to make them comparable to a full BAB combatant without completely outdoing them for (X)hours/day.
The druid would be quite a decent class without Natural Spell entirely however I think it's possible to retain Natural Spell with a little adjustment.
Or has anyone suggested that you just make wild shape by minutes instead of hours? You could make the at will power just a couple levels lower, and boost the overall power of the ability because it would have a shorter duration. that wouldn't cause any compatibility issue I can think of right this second. Maybe give just a few more uses of it /day, if it's kept at this current much lower power level.
Reducing the duration to minutes/ level would be a 1 round tax on druids in most combats. That seems a bit harsh. Keep in mind here that of all the most powerful classes the druid is the only one to take a power hit (spells/ level loss plus the change to Wild Shape).
Ooh. just thought of something else. If you lower the duration of wild shape and leave the uses/day the same, you might complain that you don't get to stay in an animal shape all the time like a 3.5 druid so how about this:
At like lvl 15, you get to pick just one animal or magical beast you could become and have it as an alternate form. so at higher level you always have that one shape that "you" are known for, be it a bear, tiger, griffin, shark, whatever. Or if you liked this idea, you could get rid of the at will power and have this power get a second and third form btw 17-20th like 3.5 elemental wild shape is. I think that would be a super-fun power to get, but then if it's an altered form, you might get to use spells in it...not...
I like the idea of a totem animal. Rather than having it at 15th level I wonder if the druid started out with 1 or 2 forms and picked a new form every time he get an upgrade in his wild shape ability. Ideally from a set list... hmmm
Glad I peaked your interest Ogre.
Problems with wild shape:
-ambiguous rulings on "familiarity,"
-druids can, if allowed spend way to much of the game type trying to cheese their shape selections, and you have all those creatures to compare.
Thematically, lots of druid players, including myself really like a more totemic feel to druids. In 4E hearsay, it seems that WotC is going to go more totemic with barbarians/druids.
So lets say you make it so the ability is like the 3.5 version, except you start it at 4th and still get the at will later on.
You start with a couple shapes from your region, then each time you gain a new use of the power you get a new shape based on the available HD/types available to you (limited by the books the DM lets you gather from). This would greatly personalize the ability for each druid.
Story wise, different prestiges could provide themes for that group, or make available a particular shape that symbolizes them. "The highland Druids of the Dire Elk, etc." I think a really flavor-padded nerf to the # of shapes options you have would really solve a number of problems faced in wild shaping.
Just add in a rule that says, only creatures from the MM1 or as individually allowed by your DM. That saves the DM tons of time not having to look over an entire book a player might have just to make sure all the animals/plants/magical beasts mesh well power-wise.
i keep editing. uhg.
If you made the ability work like this, you might want to give druid scaling "focus/proficiency" 1-3 attack bonus in these forms, because as soon as you get a type/size increase, you're only picking from the fewest HD creatures in that given group. Or you could rule that it's liek this: Each time a druid would gain an addition use of wild shape they may pick a new form form this ability. This choice must be made before the next use of wild shape is gained. this way you could stave off your form choice to that that animal that you really want in the group but has 1 or 2 HD higher than you do.
I'm going to keep thinking about this. It would also keep the ability from having to rely on the *shape/form spells, which as it stands druids don't without being a part of wild shape. good riddance imo... in their current form.