Ercinee

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OK thanks. If we were to define "simple" as wondrous items, weapons and armor then it fits. I was thinking that it referred to "low powered" items.


Interesting....

I can't help but notice that the benefit of having the Master Craftsmen feat allows you to make minor magical items.

Of course, the definition of "minor" depends greatly on your character level...

Not that I'm complaining :)


**Face Palm**

You are right. Given the quantity of a certain substance that this particular player chooses to inhale on his own free will, I really shouldn't be surprised. It didn't even occur to me that any of my players might have accidentally sold themselves down the river.

He needs to allocate 3 more points. Thanks Eric. It's a good thing I have you guys around to keep me on track.


Swish! wrote:


food for thought...personally, i'm going to go get a glass of water.

Funny, I have a sudden urge to use the facilities.


Leveling the Clouds

You have learned techniques that enable you to use leverage to throw opponents you are grappling with to the ground.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Base Attack Bonus +4

Benefit: If you succeed in using a standard action and a CMB check to break a grapple, you can knock your opponent prone and place them in any unoccupied square adjacent to you. You deal damage to your opponent equal to your unarmed strike, but adding only half your strength bonus to the damage roll. You may only throw an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller.

Hands of Jade

Prereq: Improved grapple, Improved unarmed strike, Combat Reflexes, Base attack bonus +9

If an adjacent opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may take an attack of opportunity to roll a CMB check (including the bonus for Improved Grapple). If successful, you and your opponent gain the grappled condition.

Defensive refocus

Pre-req: Character level 1

You have trained to defend yourself in ways that others of your class have not, although this means you tend to fall short in areas where others are well versed.

Benefit: You may take any good save your class has and switch it with a poor save, ie; if you are a fighter, you can choose to have a good save for Will or Reflex instead of Fortitude. You will then have a poor save for Fortitude.

This feat may only be taken at first level.


Um...just out of curiosity, do you work for these guys?


Right Jack, I agree with you 100%. And I am not overtly concerned about any of these things. However, after reading your post here I went and doubled checked the rules on energy attacks with objects and lo and behold! You are right in that hardness now applies to energy damage, which has been changed from 3.5 (i missed that before).

As for the rest, including Detect Magic, I've running RAW for play test purposes. While I agree that a 0 level spell probably shouldn't give you a limited form of x-ray vision, in reality (snicker) it does.

If we are going to have "at will" detect magics, I'm alright with that. But I would like to see some minor alterations to the spell so that it only works on objects and spells you would be able to see normally; ie, not invisible, successfully hidden, or behind a barrier of any sort.

As for adjudicating the definition of "aura"....

Well I don't know about that. In general my players have been able to rely on me to at least be consistent, and I would prefer to have "aura" defined as anything that is or contains spells or is crafted using any of the Item Creation feats. By applying some limitations to Detect Magic, as above and as you have mentioned, then the idea of defining what kind of magic does and does not produce an aura needn't concern us.


Hmmmm. So if it is true indeed that both PBS and PS work with ranged touch spells, then that makes it a little easier to accept. But of course that begs the next question: What about Deadly Aim?

(I think a Cats Grace is in order)


With all the new ranged touch attacks going around, it has become clear that our sorcerer is lacking in many situations where the wizard's HotA doesn't seem to have much of a problem.

Firing into a melee incurs a -4 penalty. For the most part, our arcane spell casters have averaged a 14 in dex, but base attack bonus remains forever on the low side. This means that even though these attacks bypass armor and shield bonuses, they still miss most of the time.

Having to get point blank shot and precise shot is fine for fighting classes, but seems a bit harsh for spellcasters just to be able to cast into melee without a negative modifier, especially given that the bonuses from point blank shot don't apply to spells/spell like abilities (at least it's not clear that they do so).

I would like to introduce a simply new feat:

Ranged Touch Precision

(no prerequisite)

Benefit: You may make ranged touch attacks into a melee without incurring the normal -4 penalty.


Personally, I could actually go for this. I've played for many, many years with many, many different characters. But I have never once in the history of my gaming career played a Paladin. And I cringe whenever I'm running and a player elects to play one. For some reason it just never seems to work out. Everyone has a different take on how they think a Paladin should act, think, and behave. But this could provide some compromise...


Huh. Interesting. I can see how that might work with NG, but by that idea you would also be including LN.

It seems to me that the Paladins code and ideals have a tendency to lean towards good more than law. For example, it explicitly states that the Paladin can not associate with evil, but mentions nothing of chaos.


These are all very good points, and I appreciate the specific examples. My point is really that 2 victories now have boiled down to one thing: who had the feat and who didn't.

It's just that there hasn't been a single other feat that has proven, thus far, to be such a deal breaker. Where just because one side has it and the other doesn't meant the outcome of the battles.


During our last two play test sessions we took a good hard look at the Channel positive energy class ability. The PC's cleric has Selective Channeling. There has been a major battle in which the PC's group fought another group of NPC's of comparable level and number (Level 1, 5 characters each) with a cleric that did not have this feat. Last session, the PC's fought a group of NPC's armed with a cleric, also without selective channeling, of which two of the NPC's were two levels higher (3rd) including the cleric himself.

Both ended the same:

Group with cleric that has the Selective channeling feat: Win

Group with cleric without selective channeling: Pwned

The enemy cleric was simply not willing to heal his enemies just to heal his companions. At one point I had to find the exact right square to place him in just to heal one of his guys without healing any of his enemies.

In a word, I see very little reason why a first level cleric would not choose Selective Channeling right out of the gate. The tactical advantage offered by it trumps just about every other feat the cleric might get. The only possible exception being an evil cleric who only runs around with undead companions.

Should we make Selective Channeling just a part of the Channel positive energy class ability?


After Months of trying to get my team focused on the beta, we have finally arrived at a point where I have 3 players that are willing to go through this process with me. Hurrah!

Unfortunately, I have not invested in any books on the Pathfinder campaign setting yet. I was really too busy getting the new rules down and a solid campaign story worked out to really spend anytime learning about a new setting, and I didn't want to corrupt the beta with settings I happen to be well versed in (realms, ebberon) so I have my first home brew setting going. The most important aspect of this as it relates to game play is the religions. For simplicity sake, I have created nine churches, each dedicated to an alignment. These institutions are the source of divine power, as wherever there are many gathered in the name of a particular set of ideals, clerics and paladins may begin to gain power.

The only house rule I use is that the DC for saving throws against spells are always equal to one-half the caster level (round down) plus ability modifier. This provides a blanket DC for all spells a caster might cast without having to spend any energy figuring DC's for individual spells. Any feats or other spells that modify DC (spell focus) function normally.

Character Creation:
We used the "high fantasy" 20 point buy system. I was very pleased with this. There was some minor grumbling from the players because they don't get to roll the dice, fudge the dice rolls, and assign 3 18's a couple of 16's and a 14. I also used the same system to calculate ability scores for many of the NPC's the players would be adventuring with, and battling against.

I have heard that one of the goals of the system was to make generating NPC's much easier for DM's. I am happy to say that my experience has confirmed this. The alteration to the skills has cut a lot of the time spent figuring skills for NPC's, and the new "cross class" skill system has made for more colorful characters. With the PDF, I can just copy and paste class abilities and even spells on to a word document and print it off, and not have to resort to the book during play.

One thing that I noticed right off the bat is that my players were willing to "sell down" some of their stats and take huge hits in some departments in order eek out a few extra points for their high scores. This isn't something I've done a whole lot of with NPC's. After 3 sessions, they are starting to feel the pain of their sacrifice. I'm wondering if they would have done it differently if they had it to do over again...

The 3 characters:

Jackson Stormsurge: Half elf Fighter 1
Stats: Str 18 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 7
Feats: Weapon Focus: longsword, Toughness

With the max HP's at first level, the toughness feat, and putting his favored class bonus into an extra point, Jackson ended up with a whopping 17 HP's at first level! However, his choices have left him with only one rank in skills in which to work with. He chose Stealth, and dumped his Skill focus feat from being a half-elf into that skill. This has generated a character that is excellent in a fight, and not bad in situations requiring a bit of discretion, and pretty much useless in every other situation. The number of times I have asked for a diplomacy or intimidate check in situations where he was trying to be convincing one way or another has left him out in the cold as far as getting his way.

Strabo Sparklebright (snicker) Gnome Bard 1
Stats: Str 6 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 17
Feats: Agile Maneuvers

Strabo said she wanted to be good at disarming people. I sort of scratched my head and let her know gently that it wasn't going to be easy. With her low strength, size modifier, and zero base attack bonus, it was a lot to ask for at first level. I recommended she use a whip, as bards are proficient in it, and to take the agile maneuvers feat. Unfortunately, this has only given her a disarming CMB of +3. For three game sessions now she has tried relentlessly to relieve her antagonists of their weapons, and has not succeeded even one time! I feel for her. She really is going to have to put every ounce of her character into this ability as she progresses. At 5th level, after having picked up combat expertise at third, and improved disarm at 5th, she will finally have a half decent disarming CMB of +9. Whether or not this will improve things for her as she faces 5th level challenges still remains to be seen.

Soveliss Nialo Elf Universalist Wizard 1
Stats: Str 7 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 18 Wis 14 Cha 12
Feats: spell focus: evocation

This character has not much to complain about, and has not much to write home about. With his two spells, which are always mage armor and magic missile, he relies heavily on hand of the apprentice. He has his arcane bond with his staff (as a weapon). This has given him a masterwork weapon to fight with. With an intelligence bonus of +4, and the enhancement bonus from the staff, he has a +5 to hit with the "hand".

After reading some threads on this board, including a couple by Jason, I went ahead and did away with the bonus damage from HotA. Through out our sessions I have watched very closely how this ability (with the damage nerfed) stacks up against the NPC sorcerer's first level ability (elemental cold bloodline). The sorcerer doesn't have anywhere near as good attack bonus (dex mod +2), but the fact that he must make only a ranged touch attack tends to make up for it mostly.

However, there are a few situations where HotA is vastly superior. There have been many occasions where the sorcerer has had to worry about firing into melee (-4 penalty), and sometimes cover as well when the fighter is in his way (another -4). The Wizard fears none of these things. HotA simply strikes targets in range.

The other NPC besides the sorcerer is a first level cleric. She has the selective channeling feat and spends most of her time keeping her companions in the hit points. I'll have a more detailed analysis of this in the appropriate "feat and skill" playtest forum.

Without going into a more long, drawn out play by play report I will simply make known various observations about the beta in my playtests sessions thus far:

Spellcasters: The "staying power" of the beta spellcasters has been something i've only dreamed about for years. In past 3.5 campaigns, I've experimented with various alternate rules systems from the unearthed arcana to try and address the problem of what my group has come to call "the 15 minutes of butt kickin'" scenario.

These methods have never really solved the problem. Some have created more complications and/or went to the opposite end of the extreme (recharge Magic). Some have improved things but not to the point of satisfaction, and dirupted the overall flow of spellcasters (spell points).

Now, we have a system where the casters can almost always do something, even if relatively minor. I am finding that my players are a lot less likely to rest after one measly fight, and tend to save their spells for when they really need them. The arcane bond ability of the wizard to pull any spell out once per day, instead of resting just to memorize that one spell just to get through one particular problem, has been invaluable.

The Clerics Positive energy burst has freed her up quite a bit for using her spells for other things besides healing (bless, for instance). This has made for a longer adventuring day and I feel as though my first level PC's can finally begin to take themselves more seriously for the first time in my gaming history.

Spells: The new Identify mechanics are quite satisfactory. The old system of requiring a 100 GP pearl for identifying items had my PC's spending vast amounts of gold acquiring pearls...to the point where we often wondered where all these freakin pearls were coming from! At the same time, the fact that the caster has to roll to see if he is successful, and has the potential to fail, creates a bit of mystery. I've taken to creating an ability that can be added to any magic item for the cost of extra gold called "confounding", which increases the DC to identify the item by 5, 10 or 20 respectively. This has given me the ability to keep some items mysterious, where the PC might discover some of the items abilities through experimentation, but not all of them. I can now have an item's powers on the back burner where the PC may someday discover all the attributes of the item, just "not right now" or "ever".

I'm still not quite sold on unlimited cantrips. Unlimited detect magics empower first level PC's to go room by room, scanning each with a detect magic, and spotting hidden magic items without actually having to search for them. This also allows them to do a quick scan of each door, instantly spotting magical traps without a search check. I have hidden some items behind or within lead sheeting, which renders the detect magic useless, but the PC's just move on. This has created a situation where if the item is hidden in the room, it is automatically found. If it is hidden within lead, it is never found. Hmmmmmm.

Also, if a hidden character has even one magic item on them, they are discovered in two rounds. This caused one of my PC's to wonder why he bothered acquiring the stealth at all.

Unlimited acid splashes has become the bane of existence for locked doors and chests. Rogues just aren't so special anymore. This might be a good thing, or not.

Some of these are fine. I have no problem with unlimited stabilize or light, for instance.

Thats all for now...


The DC for Knowledge checks against monsters is 10 + the monsters HD. If you succeed, you get one piece of information. For every five you get higher than that, you get one additional piece of info.

Thats hardly the entire monsters stat block. Usually my players manage between zero and three pieces of info. They almost always want to know the follow things in order:

Whats the DR?

Whats the SR?

Whats the energy resistance?

Whats the main attack form?

Now just because they know what the SOB's DR is doesn't necessarily mean they can do anything about it. And sometimes it takes a round of casting to prepare a weapon for combat against the critter.

The only real reason any of my mages want to know the SR is they don't want to waist spells on something that will likely brush it off.


Thats it. Next time I'm getting a chicken familiar. A male one, and I'm going to cast enlarge animal on it...


I suppose at this point I'd be looking at the strength of the Lamia Matriarch (whatever that is) to see if she's strong enough to actually carry the gnome. Gnomes be pretty small matie, so I imagine that she could, though it might move her into medium encumbrance and therefore affect her movement rate, dex bonus to AC, etc. Nevertheless she already be movin' at half speed due to the fact o' bein' grappled. Yar.


Realistically speaking, I'd say that a pre-req in Improved Unarmed Strike for improved grapple is right on. I'd also say that Improved Unarmed Strike would be required to attempt a disarm while you yourself are not armed. I know a lot more about disarming someone while empty handed than I do about trying to do it with a weapon.

If you want to really drive home realism, I'd say that there should probably be two different feats; Improved Disarm (armed) and Improved Disarm (unarmed). It seems to me the two would employ an entirely different set of principles.

That being said, there is, and should be, a dividing line between realism for the sake of realism, and abstractionism for the sake of simplicity, and the game has both. There could literally be a hundred different feats that make up unarmed combat in DnD, but they would bog down the game to the point of being unplayable. So as it stands now is perfectly ok with me.


My group has used 10 + 1/2 caster level + attribute for about 6 years. It works.


I can't imagine there is a breaking point for me. I like everything I've read. However, selling my group on certain changes will be difficult given most of them have just barely begun to wrap their minds around 3.5. So I will likely be using a PF/3.5 hybrid.

Rules that likely won't be adopted:

1. Races: The coolness factor on these definitely went up with PF. But it's a change I can live without. Off it goes.

2. Magic: With the exception of shapechange, detect magic, and identify, I'll be leaving the spells unaltered for familiarity reasons (though I may go ahead and add Breath of Life. It's just too cool).

3. Feats: My least favorite alteration. And pulling the rug out from under the old feat system will have my players throwing empty coke cans and cheese puffs at me.

Rules that I will be incorporating in my next campaign:

Classes: Not only will I be using these classes, but they will be the only classes allowed, with no PrC-ing out. Class abilities from other sources will be converted to feats, talents, and core class additions/replacements.

CMB: For simplicity sake. I doubt my group will argue too much with this one. Most don't have an inkling as to how the originals work anyway. This means that the new CM feats will be the only ones swapped out.

Skills: The new system is awesome, and this is one area I won't compromise with. They are just going to have to deal with it.

Magic Item Creation: Fine. Whatever. None of my folks ever make anything anyways.

CR/XP/leveling: A DM's dream. Thanks ; )

Curses: Just plain excellent. I can never have too many new and exciting ways to mess with PC's lives.

And there you have it. Understand though that I have never, do not, and have no intention of ever using a module. The stuff that originates from my own mind is some of the coolest I've ever run. Sorry to go all ego-centric on you.


In one game we substituted a kinda weird, modified wisdom-based CMB check (wisdom bonus + base attack bonus + 3) for the concentration skill in regards to Diamond Mind. It seems to work fine. Having the roll based on wisdom as opposed to constitution makes more sense anyway (at least to me).

Edit: Oh, and though some folks around here would probably hate me for this, I've also created 3 variants of the Desert Wind Discipline; Arctic Wind, Storm Wind, and Swamp Gas (LOL) that are based in Cold, Electricity, and Acid respectively (though these have yet to be playtested).


Without entering the debate regarding balance issues, I've done the following:

1. The "core" classes from that book are not used.

2. For the fighter, Paladin, Ranger and Monk, I treat class levels as initiator levels.

3. I do away with the "3 feat limit" on the Martial Study feat for those classes.

4. For which classes have access to what disciplines; Fighter = Warblade, Paladin = Crusader, Monk = Swordsage, Ranger = Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Desert Wind.


Good points all all around. I'll just add that I'm pretty sure some of what you describe requires the caster to actually see their target. So a blind fold maybe?

Thats just off the top of my head, theres no books here.


Pretty sure Jason mentioned something about limiting weapon choice by imposing penalties for non-proficiency and size in future releases.

Though I may be mis-remembering


My group was so sick of the 15 minute work day that we adopted the Recharge Magic system from UA a couple of years ago. It was nice for a while, but eventually I decided that it was to far in the opposite extreme. There was no attrition. The "15 minute work day" has become "conquer the entire dungeon in an hour".

So along comes PF with a suitable compromise. Of what little playtesting there has been (not enough for a report unfortunately), the new cleric is refreshing. We don't normally have evil clerics. But of the couple we've had in the past, healing just wasn't their forte. It took an evil cleric and his fellow bard to keep every one in the HP's.

It seems to me that the PF evil cleric would have an easier time healing. Now they can fill there spell slots up with curing spells and reek unholy havoc with their turning ability. Get some selective channeling and bam. PF has also increased the number of feats granted to classes so the fact that clerics have to get a feat to have more precise control over their positive/negative energy bursts seems balanced to me.

The elemental/outsider aspect doesn't bother me. The idea of clerics being able to damage demons and devils seems to follow the theme just fine. While considering the fact that elementals are inner planer creatures seems a bit of a stretch for most clerics, it fits for those that are elemental domain based.

I look forward to more development in this area. So far so good.


Oh good. I was worried you got burned out by the drama, quit, and got a job at the laundry mat down the street.


Watcher wrote:


Thanks for your ideas!

One common complaint I hear about the artificer is that they allow a PC to make disproportionately powerful items to the PCs level. Is that, or has that been your experience? Is there any way that you would curb that?

Edit: One source of that complaint on disproportionately powerful items was James Jacobs!

I suppose the artificer ability to add +2 to their caster level to meet prerequisites for Item creation could be dropped too. Never was a problem in my campaign. Then again, most folks in my group are not power gamers (unlike me) so I'm not surprised if our artie was under utilized.


My Ebberon/Pathfinder Playtest isn't scheduled until August. But the plan is to leave the class unchanged save the Retain Essence and Craft Reserve abilities which will be dropped.


To get more attacks. I read it as you don't actually have two weapons when you use this feat, you have one. You make all your attacks with your primary hand then switch hands. You then make your remaining off-hand attacks.

I like this feat, but it's doesn't seem based in realty. I've just never seen a real life sword fighter get a flurry of attacks by switching weapon hands.

Perhaps the only weapons this feat makes sense with is the nunchuku, or spiked chain.


What would be bad DMing? Getting annoyed or handing out an XP penalty?

If your referring to the archmage, he'd probably use a metamagic feat to make his Chain Lightning do non-lethal damage.

Then say: "Next time it will be the real deal you idiots! Now quit screwing around and GET BACK TO WORK!

*mumble, swear word, mumble*

That would be AWESOME. That should happen every day. I'm sure the young mages would learn the hard lesson of using magic responsively.


Excellent report, KnightErrantJR. Thank you.

I created a couple of feats your goliath may be interested in Here.


While it isn't explicitly stated, I think it's assumed that the mage still has to meet level prerequisites for the various item creation feats. If this is the case, then enchanting a staff as a "staff" would require 12th level. If he is trying to enchant it as a "weapon" then he would have to be 5th. If this is the case, then I would assume, yes, you would need a masterwork staff if your going the weapon property route.

As far as I know, there is no way to turn a regular staff into a masterwork one. You have to decide on the masterwork part at the time of it's creation.


Well an annoyed DM can give you an XP penalty. An annoyed Master Archmage with misbehaving apprentices can hit them with Chain Lightning.


Aye seems we ought to keep the bonus with thrown weapons/slings. But you have to admit a racial ability scaled in power across class levels is a bit unprecedented...


Around here, the only clear purpose the Wu-jen have is to make other classes who are lacking feel better about themselves.


Holy crap thats hilarious. Sounds to me like you guys were just doing that because you CAN. I'm guessing the initial delight of being able to cast zero levelers all day long will likely wear off eventually though.


Pre-req: Character level 1

You have trained to defend yourself in ways that others of your class have not, although this means you tend to fall short in areas where others are well versed.

Benefit: You may take any good save your class has and switch it with a poor save, ie; a fighter can choose to have a good save for Will or Reflex instead of Fortitude. He/She will then have a poor save for Fortitude.

Only first level characters can take this feat.


I agree. Samurai are fighters. Ninjas are rogues, and so on. I would be much more interested in publications that supplied a lot of "fluff" as opposed to what, in my opinion, would be a waste of valuable book space on new classes and rules.

But I guess thats where the money is...


Marko Westerlund wrote:
...we found that things easily degenerate into light spell slugging contests.

What does this mean?


ledgabriel wrote:

Shortening it up, these are the points I disliked about the game and what I think should be done:

1) Universal Wizards getting Wish 1x day at 18th level. I think this is a bit overpowered, this kind of use for wish is too much, the spell should be more restricted on its use, not the contrary.

3) Weapon Swap Feat. Needless to say it´s broken. It allows you to make attacks with only your best weapon while gaining the advantages of only having a light weapon on the off-hand. Whats the point of being "two-weapon" then? One could use any small stick on the off-hand and call it a weapon and never have to use it.

It seems to me a wizard could always just learn and prepare Wish anyway. So handing it out as a spell like ability isn't really that big of a deal. We're talkin' 18th level here.

ledgabriel wrote:


3) Weapon Swap Feat. Needless to say it´s broken. It allows you to make attacks with only your best weapon while gaining the advantages of only having a light weapon on the off-hand. Whats the point of being "two-weapon" then? One could use any small stick on the off-hand and call it a weapon and never have to use it.

I interpreted this as you don't even need the stick. You can attack with one weapon and make all your attacks with one hand and then the other.

One word: Nunchuku

Oh hell yeah, that would totally rock!


How would I run without losing my dex bonus? Roll a skill check?


Epic Meepo wrote:

From what I've gathered, the combat feats are supposed to be stances, like baby brothers of the stance maneuvers in Bo9S. As a general idea, that sort of thing has merit. As for the specific execution of the idea: that's debatable.

That crossed my mind as well. It ain't a bad idea conceptually. I've messed around with some variant rules that incorporate a bit of ToB's main ideas for the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, and Monk. It may very well work out better if the combat feats were more similar to the actual stances, as opposed to some of the maneuvers, which would make good general feats.


Yeah same here. Although if I could get an explanation as to why combat feats were introduced in the first place I might be sold on them if there is a good reason for it. There may be something going on here none of us have considered. It would at least open up this discussion a little. Jason? Anyone?


No matter what happens I'll likely be house ruling an extra skill for fighters and make them the only class that can manage two combat feats at once (at 5th level and perhaps 3 at 10th). We'll see though.


For almost the exact same price as the Ring of Blinking, a wizard can purchase 2 lesser rods of maximize...


Stay

Especially now that dying isn't even all that bad.

Sometimes frustrating things happen to your characters. A player who is temporarily frustrated is ok in my book, because it makes the sweat taste of success even sweeter. If a player is frustrated all the time, thats a different problem, and one that in my experience isn't necessarily exclusive to players that fail saves a lot.


Aye, thanks, my second degree black belt should be useful for something...

Here's another one:

Counter Grab

Prereq: Improved grapple, Improved unarmed strike, Base attack bonus +6

If an adjacent opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may use an attack of opportunity to roll a CMB check (including the bonus for Improved Grapple). If successful, you and your opponent gain the grappled condition.


As much as it doesn't make sense that a rogue would be a better front line warrior, Pathfinder can pretty much be expected to keep the rogue as is. For the most part, the trend has been to not take things away once they are in place. While I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing sneak attack limited to perhaps a standard action, it's just not going to happen. The only real option is to increase the effectiveness of the fighter.

Although this doesn't necessarily mean that the problem is related to the ability to subtract HP's. Thinking about things only in terms of raw damage output is approaching the problem one dimensionally. Rogues have an "assassin" quality about them, and it should be no surprise that they can kill something with one swift strike. The reasons why people choose to play fighters revolves around the numerous feat selection, thus, they can get really good at one thing or kind-of good at a number of things. I've seen a lot of characters multi-class and take two levels of fighter. In fact, I had one campaign in which every single character was a second level fighter. Why? For the feats of course. All that really needs to happen is an offering of incentives to stay with the fighter, or pick them in the first place. Something special that only they can do.

If most characters can only manage one combat feat a turn, then perhaps the fighter can manage two at 5th level, and three at tenth, etc. These may still not make the fighters damage quite as high as the rogues, but they could completely own the battlefield, as they should.

And a couple of more skills wouldn't be game breaking.


I really like the grapple rules as they stand now. There have been a couple of situations in our game where a combatant has tried to throw another off a cliff. The defender was moved off the cliff and the grapple was broken on the next round. The DM (me) allowed the defender to make a reflex save to grab the edge of the cliff in one situation, and allowed another to make a climb check to keep from rolling down a very steep hill.

That being said, I made up a new feat:

Combat Throw

You have learned techniques that enable you to use leverage to throw opponents you are grappling with to the ground.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Base Attack Bonus +4

Benefit: If you succeed in using a standard action and a CMB check to break a grapple, you can knock your opponent prone and place them in any unoccupied square adjacent to you. You deal damage to your opponent equal to your unarmed strike, but adding only half your strength bonus to the damage roll. You may only throw an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller. If your opponent has more than two legs, +2 is added to the difficulty for each additional leg. Creatures that fly can not be thrown.


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You have learned techniques that enable you to use leverage to throw opponents you are grappling with to the ground.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Base Attack Bonus +4

Benefit: If you succeed in using a standard action and a CMB check to break a grapple, you can knock your opponent prone and place them in any unoccupied square adjacent to you. You deal damage to your opponent equal to your unarmed strike, but adding only half your strength bonus to the damage roll. You may only throw an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller.


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