Be that as it may, I do agree with your central point, and furthermore I've never felt that a paladin should be bossy, judgmental, and self-righteous. If you read Order of the stick, I'm much more a fan of Hinjo and O-Chul (particularly O-Chul) than Miko. If you DON'T read order of the stick, start. ;) For those who haven't read the 552 strips and 2 books, however, I'll sum it up this way: the role of the paladin in the party is the GLUE, not the brain. He should be the one keeping squabbling party members working together, less-than-heroic party members convinced that they should press on towards a virtuous goal, and...
This is why I advocate Cha as a paladin's main mental ability. Its hard to keep a group working together, fighting for a cause, and following the path of righteousness when you have no force of personality and/or are ugly as an carion crawler with measles. Actualy that might not make the carrion crawler that much worse...anyways you see my point I hope.
Whew, quite a lot there Mike. Lets take a look and see if I can offer some counterpoints to your arguments.
A Paladin is a combatant, so he should have fair Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. He’s a charismatic and clever individual, and as such he should have a fair Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom. That being said, he should have at least a 14 Wisdom, 14 Charisma (if not Higher), 14 Strength, and the rest can be lower if they must, but preferably no less than 12. But honestly, a paladin should have a few exceptional scores of 16-18 as well. If this can’t be done with 28 points, it’s because the 28 point buy is flawed in my opinion. It’s designed to create semi realistic characters, average folk, not heroes. A paladin will never be and should never be average. He’s a classic hero of legend and nothing less is acceptable. I honestly think he can only be made with a die roll and good rolls.
Theres not much I can say to this. Many DM's will disagree with you, and prefer the point buy system because it balances the party out between each other. When the mage has more HPs than the Tank, the rolls are probably off a bit. Some prefer lower point buys in general because its a challenge for more experianced players, but thats another issue entirely.
There has been a lot of talk about the Paladin not being able to hold his own against a Fighter in terms of combat. Yes. That might be true. And he shouldn’t be able to. That’s not the Paladin’s job.Fighters train in combat and nothing else. They should be better with a sword and arrow. They should hit more often and do on average more damage.
The problem isnt that the paladin isnt as good at fighting as a fighter. Your absolutely right, when it comes down to swinging a weapon around, a fighter should be the hands down favorite.
The problem arieses from the fact that the paladin isnt even close to being as comabt capable as a fighter. And its in large part because he has to skimp on his physical stats to make his paladin abilities work. Also, he is limited by his variety of times per day abilities. A fighter can pretty much keep doing his thing all day until he runs out of HP. A paladin is typicly out of steam after 2-3 fights.
Put a Fighter against a Fighter.Put a Paladin against Spellcaster or arcane monster. With a high Charisma and Divine Grace, he’s got high saving throws, and spells like Resist Energy, Protection from Evil, and the truly awesome Holy Sword. Not enough, look at Complete Divine. Lots of good spells in there. And now he’s immune to Charm and Fear.
A paladin at low levels should be fighting evil spellcasters, demon cultists, and the like. And later on, demons and dragons. What good is the vast majority of his abilities against a Fighter?
Absolutely agree. A paladin should be the "tank" of choice against the more spell and ability oriented enemies, and the fighter should be the tank of choice against more physical monsters. The touchy part comes from making the paladin still decent enough tanking physical monsters and the fighter still good enough at tanking the spell monsters that having one or the other doesnt make the party feel gimped.
I can see all that. I really can.
However, there is nothing stopping a Paladin from putting his highest ability score into Strength. As long as he has a fair, 12-14 Charisma, he isn't that different from a Fighter. But as long Str is high up on your list, a paladin can be really effective.
A PFRPG Fighter has 20 Feats, plus Weapon Training and Armor Training. I'm not going to say that isn't far better than the combat abilities of the Paladin; but the Paladin has 10 feats, Smite Evil, and Divine Bond, and Spells.
They have the same base attack, the same Hit Dice, and the same saves (except a Paladin has Divine Grace, so should have better saves), and if they've got a fair DM, the same amount of money to spend on equipment.
The Paladin can put his Feats into some great abilities that can be used over and over. And in many books you can find Feats designed with the Paladin in mind. Are all of them amazing, no; but some of them are.
The new Divine Bond gives you the ability to add up to +6 into an already magical weapon for minutes per level. So let's say you've got a +5 holy avenger by 20th level. Now you can bump it up to a Keen, flaming, flaming burst, disrupting holy avenger. 20 minutes of total nastiness.
I'll grant you that the 3.5 Paladin's lack of feats made him feel far less than the 3.5 Fighter. Increasing Feats for the Paladin changes all that.
Should Smite Evil be something he can use more often, perhaps. But not on the level that Rage can be used. Smite Evil is simply more powerful than Rage. It might not seem like it at first level, but when your adding +3 to hit and +10 to your damage at 10th level as a free action, and you can do so say 56 times a day, it'll be a tad bit more powerful than +2/+2.
Even with the Rage Powers, many of the truly powerful ones are 6 points, which means at best class level/day.
If we were to alter the number of time per day, no more than class level/day. But then, Extra Smite sort of already does that, so why would we need to change anything?
Not trying to be difficult, just pointing out that the class is pretty darn good.
Sure, the D&D Paladin is clearly modelled after Charlemagne's 12 Paladins and alot of their abilities take inspiration from there. But I need only point you in the direction of the wikipedia article on Paladins that that's clearly not the only usage of the word, nor the only way they can be portrayed.
Uh-huh. So, you're going to create a class of chamberlains?
Look, you don't want paladins, you want something else. You've got all sorts of arguments for something else. That's fine. Go have fun with something else. Argue that this something else should replace paladins. Just call them something else, because they aren't paladins.
How many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg? Four; calling it a leg doesn't make it one. Similarly, a chaotic evil character isn't a paladin, even if you call him one.
Paladins of the other eight alignments, someone asked?
You mean like the
Myrikhan
Garath
Lyan
Paramander (and Paramandyer)
Illrigger
Aarikhan
Anti-Paladin
and whatever that CN paladin was called (Faran?)
Note: a Good 24 years ago they came out with Paladin alts.
If you like alignment alternatives, there are plenty out there to choose from. But 'Paladin' in the D@D lexicon has always stood for a LG fighter-type with divine backing. I see absolutely no reason to change it. If you want a new alignment based fighter-type, swipe one of the names above and go have fun.
But don't mess with our paladins!
BTW, if anyone wants to see a REAL paladin at work, go read the Harry Dresden books, and watch for Michael, the Fist of God. HE is an iconic paladin, and there's nothign Lawful Stupid or Idiot Good about him. Jim Butlet just came out with his newest, and Michael plays a prominent role.
===Aelryinth
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How many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg? Four; calling it a leg doesn't make it one. Similarly, a chaotic evil character isn't a paladin, even if you call him one.
Well, except that dogs are real things, and "paladins", as D&D defines them, are fictions.
Perhaps, a better argument: Since paladins appeared in the AD&D First Edition, the word has meant a Lawful Good holy warrior.
We could look elsewhere for definitions of paladins: the Marvel comics character named "Paladin" is a mercenary; literary paladins have included Charlemagne's 12 peers --who didn't seem to have any alignment restrictions-- and historically, paladins have been knights with some other duties. But I think most people who pick up Pathfinder will expect the word "paladin" to mean what it's meant throughout the history of the game with which Pathfinder promises to be backwards-compatable.
So, I think that Pathfinder should come up with divine warriors of various alignments, but to make the customer base happy, those characters should be called something like Blackguards, Illriggers, or Paramanders, (except, y'know, not with the intellectual-property violations...)
If you want to call them "Paladins of Tyrrany" or "Paladins of Liberty" in your campaign, more power to you.
(In my campaign, there are indeed nascent organizations sponsoring Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil versions of the Paladin, but they each have specific agendas.)
--
Hey, I have a question.
In Pathfinder, paladins need to have a patron god. (In order to have a patron god's choen weapon.) What are the limitations on this? I'm guessing that the Paladin needs to devote herself to one of the LG, NG, or LN gods, those being Erastil, Iomedae, Torag; Savenrae, Shelyn; Abadar, and Irori. Does that square with your understanding? Or should the Paladin's devotions be restricted to a LG god?
Irori's chosen weapon is unarmed strike. How can a Paladin's unarmed strike be "masterwork"?
And, how does the "bonuses don't stack with existing enchantments" work? If a paladin of Torag gets his hands on a battleaxe +1, I'm understanding that he can't make it +2, but he can make it flaming. At 8th level, he could make it +2, or some other ability that would add an effective +2 to its power. Does that make sense to you?
Can a Paladin's bond bring the weapon past +5 attack and danage bonus?
Can the paladin switch between these bonuses as a free action, or does it requre a move-equivalent action to switch from, say, +4 flaming to +1 brilliant energy?
As far as Divine Bond works, I got the feeling that the lack of stacking meant if you could increase your weapon +2, and you already have a +1 longsword, you could make it a +2 longsword or a +1 flaming, flaming burst longsword. You could just make it a +1 flaming longsword, but then you are wasting a +1 somewhere.
Non LG Paladins. To me a Paladin is defined by Goodness, while a Knight is defined by Lawfulness. So I have no problems with a NG, CG, or LG Paladin. It doesn't bother me. But I can understand why someone else would feel otherwise. In the end, I'm fine either way.
And one last thing. I was thinking about what Glan Var said about a point based system creating balance between the characters, which is true. However, I don't know if that is a fair system for dnd.
What I mean is that certain classes only need one ability score to be truly effective. Wizards need Intellgence, and it could be argued that Fighters only need Strenght. If some of there other scores are less than wonderful, they can still do everything they're supposed to do. Other classes need more than one ability score to be truly effective. Clerics need Wisdom, Charisma (for Turn Undead), and Strength. Monks need Strength, Wisdom, and Dexterity. And so forth. The more complicated the class the more ability scores you need to be effective.
So if the point based system allows only one ability to be high at the expensive of others being very low, it's creating classes who are going to feel far weaker than they should be. It's hard enough to play a Bard, but to say the only way to play a Bard with a high Charisma is to suffer in the other stats, making him that much less a combat class is really hard for me to get behind.
The only point based system I've used and been happy with is the one that Iron Heroes came up with. You could easily have a character with 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10. Or 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. Or straight 14's. This breakdown made me feel really good about my characters, without seeming over powered. But maybe that's just me.
And one last thing. I was thinking about what Glan Var said about a point based system creating balance between the characters, which is true. However, I don't know if that is a fair system for dnd.
What I mean is that certain classes only need one ability score to be truly effective. Wizards need Intellgence, and it could be argued that Fighters only need Strenght. If some of there other scores are less than wonderful, they can still do everything they're supposed to do. Other classes need more than one ability score to be truly effective. Clerics need Wisdom, Charisma (for Turn Undead), and Strength. Monks need Strength, Wisdom, and Dexterity. And so forth. The more complicated the class the more ability scores you need to be effective.
So if the point based system allows only one ability to be high at the expensive of others being very low, it's creating classes who are going to feel far weaker than they should be. It's hard enough to play a Bard, but to say the only way to play a Bard with a high Charisma is to suffer in the other stats, making him that much less a combat class is really hard for me to get behind.
The only point based system I've used and been happy with is the one that Iron Heroes came up with. You could easily have a character with 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10. Or 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. Or straight 14's. This breakdown made me feel really good about my characters, without seeming over powered. But maybe that's just me.
In a sense you are right. DnD's classes were originally designed around a system of stat rolling. As a DM, I used this system for a long time because that was how the game worked. But I noticed something interesting when I was running my age of worms campaign. When I allowed them to roll stats, I had one of two choices. Either increase the range of stats they could roll, or go for the standard stat rolling and risk the party not surviving the first few adventures (2 sets of 4d6, drop low rolls was what I finally settled on I think). This led to some of the characters being massively powerful (I think our cleric wound up with the equivalent of a 52 point-buy) and others that didn't do much until the extreme late game, after I had managed to feed them items to compensate for their weaknesses.
I liked the point buy system initially because it tried to balance that randomness out a bit. but as time went by I saw a weakness in it, which was that classes with MAD, particularly Paladin and Monk, were horribly weakened by it. Even using a system like the one you suggest didn't solve the problem, it only alleviated it slightly. I would just like to see some basic changes that make it so players and DMs don't have to choose between randomness and balance.
I'd like to start by saying this is my first post. I've been playing 3.0 and 3.5 for only a few years, so I am not new to the game, but no professional, either. I haven't involved myself in the internet community surrounding the game very much, but it looks like fun!
The challenge of defining the Paladin class comes from the fact that there are class (or class combinations) that evoke the Paladin theme more powerfully than the class itself. It is an interesting exercise to create a Lawful Good Cleric that can outshine a Paladin in frontline combat as well as supporting roles yet hold the exact same ideals (and thus, roleplaying challenges) as the Paladin. The only tradeoffs are the rounds the cleric spends enhancing him or herself (or others) to achieve those results (and, if on a mount, then it is an easier target than the Paladin's). More interesting still are the fighter/cleric combinations to further improve frontline combat effectiveness. Still, if we as a community really believe a Paladin to be distinguished and canonical enough to be a class apart from the Cleric, then the following shall indicate my preference on the debate over alignment.
A dictionay definition of Paladin:
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
To define chivalry:
1. the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms. 2. the rules and customs of medieval knighthood.
Regarding Paladins and the alignment restriction:
Lawful Good, "Crusader"
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
It's based on this that I cannot dare to see anything that isn't lawful good as a Paladin. The fact that chivalry is defined by rules and customs as well as a set of positive ideals represents lawful and good, respectively.
I agree with the debate that to be restricted so should allow for a class with superior options. I will reserve my vision of the Paladin class, one that hopefully preserves backwards compatibility, for another post.
P.S. A class with a real alignment problem would be the Rogue. The class allows Alignment: Any, yet the dictionary defines a Rogue to be a "dishonest, knavish person" and this definition is reflected in the Rogue's class skills! (i.e. Bluff, Forgery) That rules out lawful immediately!
Only thing I have to say is regarding a post a fair ways back on the third page regarding stats, point buy, and being heroic.
28 point buy is certainly heroic. The idea that 28 point buy is "average joe" is completely out of whack. Average joe is a 15 point buy. Look it up, its the commoner array. 25 Point buy is the basic standard for "heroes", also known as above average. 28 is strong. 32 is often called heroic, but don't let that make you think the others are "joe average" except for the one that actually is. A score of 16-18 isnt exceptional, its incredible. I can only name a few people that I know personally that might possibly have a real world equivalent to a 16+ in a stat. 13-15 is exceptional.
Stats are getting out of control. As one of the Players in Glan Vars Age of Worms game, uncontrolled stats are possibly the worst thing that can happen to a game, for both work needed (too little for players, too much for DM) and enjoyment. BTW, Glan Var, you did an awesome job of managing that circus, and don't ever think otherwise.
Ug, getting my vitrol on and my dander up. Better stop.
Still this does make me notice the NPC to PC gear ratios, how those relate to CR, how stats relate to CR, and how a lot of the arguments that spring out of that all that might be flawed. Ug.
Edit* The cleric had an effective 57 point buy. She just used it poorly. I had a 42 on my PC. What kills me is that the 32 point buy Sorceror who specialized in Magic Missle was the most powerful character, hands down. Splatbooks favor casters, Ive noticed.
First off, I hope I didn’t offend anyone earlier.
Well I guess I did, at least one person.
Sorry. Not the intension.
And I don’t want to harp on this, but I will point out that if I showed up to a game that you ran and gave you a character with STR 14, DEX 13, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 12, and CHR 12, no one would think me weak.
Yet no one would think me powerful.
As heroes go, that’s pretty average.
That’s 28 points.
At my game table, if there is less than a single 16, you get to reroll. One 16 and a bunch of 11 and 12's is a tough character to play with.
Is it realistic, sure. But that's not Hercules, Conan, Indiana Jones, or Luke Skywalker. Well maybe Star Wars Luke.
Just my opinion.
One quick counterpoint to that last statement before I get into the meat of this post: telling people what to do isn't always bad; when a parent tells their child not to touch a stove, an officer tells a soldier to carry out an order, or even when a boss gives an employee an assignment, it's lawful, maybe, but not necessarily evil (the first example is unquestionably good). Be that as it may, I do agree with your central point, and furthermore I've never felt that a paladin should be bossy, judgmental, and self-righteous. If you read Order of the stick, I'm much more a fan of Hinjo and O-Chul (particularly O-Chul) than Miko. If you DON'T read order of the stick, start. ;) For those who haven't read the 552 strips and 2 books, however, I'll sum it up this way: the role of the paladin in the party is the GLUE, not the brain. He should be the one keeping squabbling party members working together, less-than-heroic party members convinced that they should press on towards a virtuous goal, and...I think that it is worth noting that the First Edition paladin was intended to be a sort of elite class. Back then it really did outshine the fighter in many ways.
Moreover, the paladin's LG moral code of chivalry was designed to be difficult and challenging to play. Honestly, those who balk at the strict alignment requirement are sort of admiting they are not up to that kind of a challenge.
A well-played paladin is a paragon of both good and law and can be looked up to as a hero even by chaotics who don't live by that kind of code.
My bottom-line point: the paladin class is not so much the problem as is how it is played by so many people. 1E pretty much spelled out what was expected of the paladin but as editions have come and gone the designers haven't really wanted to push the issue.
Too many people use the paladin as a way to control the group and as an excuse to mandate what the party can and can't do.
Which is a pretty good definition of Lawful Evil.
I agree wholeheartedly with your counter-point. It was not, however, entirely my point. I am refering to those who play the paladin as an excuse to be overbearing, demanding espousers of the "my way or the highway" types.
Going back to the original point of this thread
- Agreed on Charisma based casting
- I agree with NO detect evil, instead bonus to sense motive
- Paladins ARE LG. But allow sidebar Kits to tailor LN, LE, NG versions.
- The fixed paladin was a great concept (from Gleemax). Horsie is only one option.
The fixed Paladin had special abilities granted at the key "horsie" levels.
Mounted got the horse stuff. Defensive got defensive stuff, Aggressive got PH2. There was also the Inquistor, the Diplomat, the Spellbreaker and a slew of others. Basically it allowed for different orders (which would be nice given the Wizards schools).
- Paladins ARE LG. But allow sidebar Kits to tailor LN, LE, NG versions.
I agree. I would prefer to see the paladin as LG in the core rule, with alternate options in a sidebar. I would probably focus more on the 4 corner alignments, though.
I can see the benefit of Charisma-based casting, but with a number of paladin skills based on WIsdom, he still doesn't want to skimp there. I think a more important change would be to cast freely off the paladin list. It's pretty short and shouldn't be too unbalancing. I wouldn't even care if there were no 0-level spells at that point either.
When I saw the barbarian rage points, I kind of expected smite points. I think I'd like to see some variant on that to make that infrequent smite from lower levels do more work. Or number of smites being some higher number like the turning undead feature.
Personally, I think the fuss about ability scores is a bit overblown. 3e has unprecedented ways of increasing a character's stats for adventuring purposes and compensating for weaknesses. I've never found the stat issue to be a particularly serious one.
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Be that as it may, I do agree with your central point, and furthermore I've never felt that a paladin should be bossy, judgmental, and self-righteous. If you read Order of the stick, I'm much more a fan of Hinjo and O-Chul (particularly O-Chul) than Miko. If you DON'T read order of the stick, start. ;) For those who haven't read the 552 strips and 2 books, however, I'll sum it up this way: the role of the paladin in the party is the GLUE, not the brain. He should be the one keeping squabbling party members working together, less-than-heroic party members convinced that they should press on towards a virtuous goal, and...This is why I advocate Cha as a paladin's main mental ability. Its hard to keep a group working together, fighting for a cause, and following the path of righteousness when you have no force of personality and/or are ugly as an carion crawler with measles. Actualy that might not make the carrion crawler that much worse...anyways you see my point I hope.
I can see your point, but I still don't quite buy it for some reason. I suppose even "quiet strength" can indicate a very high CHA score but it just seems odd to me that so many think it's impossible to lead through great deeds rather than great words. I like the idea of a paladin that doesn't make members of the opposite sex pant with desire, doesn't cause rooms to fall silent when they enter, doesn't sway kings and princes with impassioned speeches and yet still has the ability to make evil experience incontinence as it quakes in its black, spiky boots. In short, I'm sick of Sir Gallahad. I want Solomon Kane. However, the class rules probably aren't the place to be putting dramatic exceptions in. I would, however, like to see a feat that can be referenced in future Pathfinder material (i.e. NOT serenity, which Paizo doesn't own the copyright on and can't touch) that allows people to build paladins that aren't "Mr. Popularity". I also stand by my earlier statement about tough choices and MAD.
Edit: Paladins stats SHOULD be a choice. In effect you're deciding whether to trust your patron (mental stats) or yourself (physical stats) more. That's a powerful statement, whichever way it goes.
I know the Paladin has always been a class but it really seems more like a +1 LA template that should be applied to a base class similar to the +2 LA Saint templates. Probably to much of a leap for backwards compatibility.
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I know the Paladin has always been a class but it really seems more like a +1 LA template that should be applied to a base class similar to the +2 LA Saint templates. Probably to much of a leap for backwards compatibility.
Too much of a leap for backwards compatibility, yes. Too much of a leap to have me truly intrigued? Hell no! How would you execute this? I'd probably call it something else, but I'm genuinely interested. You've waved something in front of me that I didn't even know I wanted until now. Have you been doing something like that in a home game?
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I know the Paladin has always been a class but it really seems more like a +1 LA template that should be applied to a base class similar to the +2 LA Saint templates. Probably to much of a leap for backwards compatibility.
Hm.
That's one of the more thought-provoking revelations I've yet come across on these boards.
Excellent point CastleMike.
Probably won't work for PFRPG due to it being such a drastic departure from the accepted norm, but damn fine analysis nonetheless.
This deserves additional consideration . . .
A +1 LA template isn't that different from a 1 level long prestige class.
On Rogues:
Away from books at the moment, so going off memory of lawful
But can't a dishonest person respect order? value stability? obey laws? follow a code of honor?
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On Rogues:
Away from books at the moment, so going off memory of lawful
But can't a dishonest person respect order? value stability? obey laws? follow a code of honor?
Absolutely: Can anyone say "The Godfather" ?
Devils are another "lawful" by nature creature - and I daresay they're the most trustworthy and honest of citizens.
Robert
Going back to the original point of this thread
- Agreed on Charisma based casting
- I agree with NO detect evil, instead bonus to sense motive
- Paladins ARE LG. But allow sidebar Kits to tailor LN, LE, NG versions.
- The fixed paladin was a great concept (from Gleemax). Horsie is only one option.
The fixed Paladin had special abilities granted at the key "horsie" levels.
Mounted got the horse stuff. Defensive got defensive stuff, Aggressive got PH2. There was also the Inquistor, the Diplomat, the Spellbreaker and a slew of others. Basically it allowed for different orders (which would be nice given the Wizards schools).
I would just make lawful versions. If you make one "kit" for NG you ought make one for each alignment.
I was just reading another one of Jason's books: Dungeonscape and there is a wonderful paladin variant that I've never noticed before. It allows for these different "spirits" to summoned that allow the paladin to do all their stuff a little better. You get a new one every "horsie" level or so...as you've described them. I think this could be a very good paladin option to balance the mount power. You should take a look. (Dungeonscape Pg.11)
A few thoughts:
* Remove the alignment restriction, open it up to variety if it's only in a sidebar then that's awesome. Either way make it possible to play something different. There's been no reason given why we can't have an option for Paladins of different alignments so its clear nothing stands in the way of that.
* Make the Paladin more iconic. His Smite Evil ability, while interesting isn't really all that impressive and that seems to be the only thing he does (except for being immune to disease and fear and mimicking a side effect of Bardic Music). More Paladiny stuff, more self-sacrifice, more valiance, more steadfastness, more triumph in face of impossible odds, more "I jump infront of the arrow heading for my friends" or "Strike-fear-into-the-infidel" kind of stuff.
* Make the Paladin able to do more than just beat evil things to pulp. The Remove Disease ability is a nice step, perhaps make that "1/day slot" able to be something else so you can customize your Paladin more, or add more abilities that'd make the Paladin wanted in a community (Better skillpoints maybe? I mean, what does he do once all the evil things are gone? Sit on his ass and pray for a demon incursion? Make him more of a community/party asset basically.)
On aligments & Paladins.
Alignments are silly, I think we all see it but we use them because they're handy and they speed up gameplay. I just find getting stuck in them to be even sillier.
I could go on and on and dredge up endless examples of when alignments just don't apply or when they become too ambiguous. I could go on to the nature of good and evil, law and chaos and such but what's the point really? All that is going to get said by the hardcore supporters of the current Paladin class is basically "But...he's always been LG!". Lets allow more variety than just this cookie cutter publicly correct Paladin. If we shouldn't allow it give a reason for it! *cut*
I've cut the rest of this because it just became silly and vitriolic bashing, I try to keep this in mind once I seem to get offtrack in my rants =D
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* Make the Paladin more iconic. His Smite Evil ability, while interesting isn't really all that impressive and that seems to be the only thing he does (except for being immune to disease and fear and mimicking a side effect of Bardic Music). More Paladiny stuff, more self-sacrifice, more valiance, more steadfastness, more triumph in face of impossible odds, more "I jump infront of the arrow heading for my friends" or "Strike-fear-into-the-infidel" kind of stuff.
* Make the Paladin able to do more than just beat evil things to pulp. The Remove Disease ability is a nice step, perhaps make that "1/day slot" able to be something else so you can customize your Paladin more, or add more abilities that'd make the Paladin wanted in a community (Better skillpoints maybe? I mean, what does he do once all the evil things are gone? Sit on his ass and pray for a demon incursion? Make him more of a community/party asset basically.)
For a variant: I have posted this before in another related thread, I have designed a paladin (with inspiration from PF rules) and I think does do what youre suggesting - certainly more self-sacrifice, more iconic, adn more 'paladiny' stuff.....
PALADIN
Hit Die: d10
Alignment: Lawful Good
Class Skills
The paladin’s class skills are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha),
Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility)
(Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride
(Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4
Paladins of Mydian are elite warriors of pure righteousness. They are idealistic and serve a cause greater than themselves. They are holy warriors who belong to a particular faith, and serve to protect that faith, but also serve to protect a community, a nation, and/or its government. Paladins are the paragon example of staunch heroism; they are patriots, leaders, field marshals in battle, and are the very essence of the knight in shining armor. They live their lives under a strict code of conduct of law, order, honor, duty and chivalry. One can always expect to see a paladin leading a holy crusade, leading a band of heroes against insurmountable odds, or taking the initiative to stamp out evil from a community. They are the first to step foot on a battlefield, and are the last to leave. They protect the weak, defend the innocent, and right the wrongs committed by evil.
Paladins receive holy blessings from their gods to allow them to channel positive energy to use for many various divine uses, but it is their strict adherence to their code, and their unwavering loyalty to goodness, purity, and righteousness that allows them channel powers from within themselves. It is this purity within their spirit and their hearts that make them iconic adversaries in the battle against evil. It is their very essence of righteous might that makes them fearless in combat, and staunch heroes who seem to be able fight on, even long after most would have perished.
Their faith, along with their duty and loyalty to their god and religion, gives them certain tenants and edicts to follow along their path of enlightenment; however, it is their own moral code, which even exceeds that of most clergy within their faith that grants the paladin his inner strength and power to combat evil.
Paladins also fight for truth and justice, correcting injustices that they see, upholding the laws of good communities, and punishing evil transgressors. They enact justice and punish the wicked when those who have been wronged cannot. Paladins see good and evil as black and white with few shades of grey – often times this grey area is more defined based on what faith he belongs to.
Paladins may fill the role of a field general directing troops, a mounted cavalry knight, a stalwart hero standing at the middle of a battle rallying his comrades, or a spiritual leader of wisdom and grace. In the World of Mydian, where the presence and influence of demonic and devilish fiends and lords are felt throughout the lands, the paladin and his abilities serves as the mighty holy warrior that many turn to lead the fight against them and rid the world of their vile nature.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Role: Paladins can be found among all races – most rarely among elves and half-orcs that are typically more chaotic in nature; but there are of course exceptions. Dwarven paladins are quite common, most worship Moradin. Gnomish paladins are less common, but do exist; most of whom worship Divinicus. Hobbit paladins are not very common, but those who are paladins are bold indeed, and usually worship Bheahbheaux the Bold. Humans and Half-elves are the most common paladins. Of the human races, Astorians make up most common paladins; Tordish and Vistani are much less common due to their general chaotic nature. Fylurians tend to be more secluded and nature-oriented to bother with such ideals of a paladin, and Shalosian, despite their lawful nature, are often times too wrapped up in their own society to truly find the noble path of a paladin congruent to their lifestyle – though those who do take that path make excellent mounted paladins.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code ofconduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield prof iciencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate. Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. Due to their single-minded devotion to duty, a paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities. The only exception to this rule are, paladins who worship Sir Kicley, who can freely multi-class with cleric levels.
LEVEL BAB FORT REF WILL Class Ability
1 1 2 0 0 Detect Evil; Aura of Good; Smite Evil 1 + Cha mod
2 2 3 0 0 Divine Grace +2; Lay on Hands (Cha Mod + 1/2 Paladin Level)
3 3 3 1 1 Divine Health; Aura of Courage
4 4 4 1 1 Smite Evil 2 + Cha mod; Channel Positive Energy; Aura of Inspiration
5 5 4 1 1 Divine Bond
6 6 5 2 2 Divine Grace +3
7 7 5 2 2 Smith Evil 3 + Cha Mod; Aura of Protection
8 8 6 2 2 Bless Weapon
9 9 6 3 3 Righteous Challenge
10 10 7 3 3 Divine Grace +4 ; Smite Evil 4 + Cha Mod; Aura of Righteousness
11 11 7 3 3 Divine Favor
12 12 8 4 4 Mettle
13 13 8 4 4 Smite Evil 5 + Cha Mod; Aura of Resistance
14 14 9 4 4 Divine Grace +5; Ability Boost
15 15 9 5 5 Paladin’s Ward
16 16 10 5 5 Smite Evil 6 + Cha Mod; Aura of Invulnerability
17 17 10 5 5 Dispel Evil
18 18 11 6 6 Divine Grace +6
19 19 11 6 6 Smite Evil 7 + Cha Mod; Aura of Vitality
20 20 12 6 6 Holy Champion
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Aura: Due to their loyalty and oath of righteousness, their goodly purity can be felt by others just by being around them. Good aligned comrades of the paladin can benefit from these auras. Some of these auras must be turned on or off as the paladin wishes, while others are always in effect. In addition to those auras that are described as always in effect, one aura can be active at any given time; but the paladin may switch between them each round as a swift action on his turn as he sees fit. The benefit of these aura only affects himself and good-aligned comrades who are within 10 feet of the paladin. The benefits of the aura stay in effect only while the paladin is conscious. The various auras are listed below.
Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her
paladin level. This aura begins at 1st level and is always in effect.
Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability is always in effect, but only functions while the paladin is conscious. It does not function if he is unconscious or dead.
Aura of Inspiration (Su): Beginning at 4th level, the paladin can activate an aura that inspires his comrades to better efficiency in combat against their enemies. The aura provides a +1 Luck Bonus to attack and damage rolls for every 4 levels of the paladin to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Aura of Protection (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the paladin can activate an aura that offers increased protection from his enemies. The aura provides a +1 Luck Bonus to AC and Saving Throws. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level, +3 at 15th level, and +4 at 19th level.
Aura of Righteousness (Su): Beginning at 10th level, the paladin can activate an aura that draws upon his very pure and good nature of his soul. All attacks made by the paladin’s comrades are treated as if they were done by a ‘good-aligned’ weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Aura of Resistance (Su): Beginning at 13th level, the paladin can activate an aura that provides energy resistance 10. The paladin must indicate the type of energy resistance at the time he activates the aura, but may change between the types each round on his turn.
Aura of Invulnerability (Su): Beginning at 16th level, the paladin can activate an aura that provides damage reduction 5/Evil.
Aura of Vitality (Su): Beginning at 19th level, the paladin can channel his altruistic nature to evoke an aura that bestows a benefit of fast healing 5. Apply the healing at the end of the paladin’s turn; comrades must be within the aura at the end of his turn to be healed.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Smite Evil (Su): Starting at 1st level, the paladin receives the ability to smite evil with one of his normal melee attacks. At later levels, he may expend daily uses of his smite evil to perform other abilities. At first level the paladin has a number of Smite Evil attempts equal to 1 plus his charisma modifier. He adds another Smite Evil attempt to his daily allotment at every 3 levels after 1st (4th, 7th, 10, etc). Temporary boosts to charisma, such as Eagles Splendor spell does not allow another use of Smite Evil; though a magical item with an enhancement bonus on it worn for at least 24 hours will provide additional attempts.
Lay on Hands (Sp): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can begin performing various types of curing and removing certain maladies. The paladin receives a number of Curing Points each day, and each type of curing he performs costs points from his daily allotment. A paladin has a number of daily curing points equal to one-half his paladin level plus charisma modifier. Temporary boosts to charisma, such as Eagles Splendor spell does not provide more curing points; though a magical item with an enhancement bonus on it worn for at least 24 hours will increase the amount. The various abilities and the cost to activate each are listed below:
Divine Grace (Su): Upon reaching 2nd level, a paladin with a positive Charisma modifier gains up to a +2 bonus to all saving throws. At 6th level this bonus increases to +3. At 10th it increases to +4. At 14th level, it increases to +5, and at 18th level, it increases to +6. The bonus to saving throws may never be more than his Charisma Modifier.
Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and
magical diseases.
Channel Positive Energy (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to channel positive energy. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She channels positive energy as a cleric of three levels lower would.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. The first is a bond with a celestial spirit that she can call on once per day, as a standard action, to enhance her deity’s chosen weapon. When called, the spirit enhances the power of the weapon, causing it to shed light like a torch for 1 minute per paladin level. At 5th level, this spirit gives the weapon a +1 bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. These bonuses do not stack with any properties the weapon already has. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 bonus must be added before any other abilities can be added. The celestial spirit immediately departs if the weapon leaves the paladin’s possession and does not return until summoned again. If a weapon bearing a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes
a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. The second bond allows a paladin to gain the service of
an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin). Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service. Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect. Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying.
The paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Bless Weapon (Sp): Beginning at 8th level, the paladin can use one of his daily uses of Smite Evil to cast Bless Weapon at a caster level equal to his paladin level.
Righteous Challenge (Su): Beginning at 9th level, the paladin can selflessly call out to his enemies and issue a challenge to draw their ire at the paladin and the paladin alone to save his comrades from being a target. This is a standard action in which the paladin expends one of his daily uses of channeling positive energy. All enemies within 30 feet of the paladin must make a Will Save DC equal to 10 + one-half paladin level + paladin’s charisma modifier. Treat this as a mind affecting / compulsion affect. Those failing the saving throw cannot attack any other creature on its next turn other than the paladin. Such a creature under this affect does not become mindless or charmed into acting stupidly. It does not have to attack; it can choose to flee, cast a spell, or do any other normal activity, including taking its allotted Attacks of Opportunity; it just cannot attack any other creature on its next turn except the paladin. If the creature casts an area effect spell, such as fireball, the paladin must be a target within the spell. A Chain Lighting spell must be cast at the paladin as the primary target. If the creature can make an attack that affects multiple targets, such as Whirlwind Attack or Cleave, the paladin must be the primary target. If the creature is attacked by one of the paladin’s comrades before its turn, the compulsion ends, and the creature can choose to attack anyone. If on the creature’s turn the paladin can no longer be seen, detected, or line of sight is blocked by full cover, then the compulsion is broken.
Divine Favor (Sp): Beginning at 11th level, a paladin can cast Divine Favor by expending one of his daily uses of Smite Evil. His caster level is equal to his paladin level.
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the paladin has the ability to shrug off the effects of certain spells. If the paladin makes a successful Fort or Will save against a spell that would normally reduce the spell’s effects, he instead would suffer no effects at all from the spell. Only spells listed as Save Will - Partial or Fort - Half (or similar entries) are affected by this ability.
Ability Boost (Sp): Beginning at 13th level, the paladin can use one of his daily uses of Smite Evil to cast one of the spells that increase a creatures ability scores. At the time of the casting, he can choose to cast either Bulls Strength, Bears Endurace, Cats Grace, Fox’s Cunning, Owls Wisdom, or Eagles Splendor.
Paladin’s Ward (Su): Beginning at 15th level, a paladin may choose to expend one of his daily uses to channel positive energy, and dub a good-aligned comrade within 30’ of him as his protected ward. To do this the paladin exudes his altruistic nature and makes a supernatural spiritual connection to his ward. Doing so requires a standard action. Until the paladin’s next turn, all damage sustained by his ward is instantly absorbed by the paladin instead. Death can occur from this noblest of action. After the paladin has dubbed someone his ward, the shielded creature can move outside the 30’ feet of the paladin; so long as they both remain on the same plane, the bond is still active for that one round. Calculate the damage taken as if the warded creature actually took the damage using the ward’s saving throws, and any resistances he has in effect. (For example, a warded wizard with Stoneskin would remove 10 points of damage before the paladin absorbs damage. In contrast if the paladin had fire resistance in effect, the warded creature did not, the paladin would receive the full amount of damage that the warded creature would have taken from a Fireball spell.)
Dispel Evil (Sp): Beginning at 17th level, a paladin can expend one of his daily uses of his Smite Evil ability to cast Dispel Evil at a caster level equal to his paladin level.
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. She gains Damage Reduction 10/evil. Whenever she uses Smite Evil against an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy, she channels the maximum possible amount.
The Paladin’s Mount
The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well. A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).
Paladin’s Mount Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.
Level HD Nat. Armor Strength INT Special
5th – 7th +2 +4 +1 6 Empathic link, Imp.Evasion, Share spells, Share saving throws
8th – 10th +4 +6 +2 7 Improved Speed
11th – 14th +6 +8 +3 8 Command creatures of its kind
15th – 20th +8 +10 +4 9 Spell Resistance
Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Ref lex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
Natural Armor Adj.: The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus.
Str Adj.: Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score.
Int: This is the mount’s Intelligence score.
Empathic Link (Su): The paladin has an empathic link with her mount to a distance of 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but the two can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.
Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a wizard and his familiar (see Familiars).
Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Ref lex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
Share Spells: The paladin may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin may cast spells on her mount even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).
Share Saving Throws: For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.
Improved Speed (Ex): The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet.
Command (Sp): Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21
Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect.
Spell Resistance (Ex): A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance.
Lay On Hands Abilities
The paladin's connection with his god creates a divine link that allows him to heal others and remove certain maladies that affect them. Although many of the abilities that a paladin has access to comes from his inner strength of character, charisma, and his own spirit of purity, the ability to heal others and lend divine aid comes from his faith and loyalty to his god. The paladin has a number of abilities he can perform using his lay on hands as a spell like ability at a caster level equal to his paladin level. Each day, the paladin receives a set number of “curing points” that he can distribute among a number of abilities. Each of these abilities costs a certain amount of points to use. The paladin has a number of “curing points” equal to half his paladin level plus his charisma modifier. The paladin must have a paladin-level equal to twice the listed points it costs to activate an ability in order to be able to use it. The following abilities and points they cost to use is listed below: (Note: these abilities work similar to the spells of the same name with the following exception: they affect only one target per activation, and they remove only the malady that is in place and do not provide a long-lasting protection; such as Neutralize Poison provides.)
Cure light Wounds 1
Remove Fear 1
Delay Poison 2
Lesser Restoration 2
Remove Fatigued Condition 2
Remove Paralysis 2
Remove Sickened Condition 2
Remove Stunned Condition 2
Cure Moderate Wounds 3
Remove Blindness / Deafness 3
Remove Curse 3
Remove Disease 3
Neutralize Poison 4
Remove Exhausted Condition 4
Remove Nauseated Condition 4
Restoration 4
Break Enchantment 5
Cure Serious Wounds 5
Paladins of Mydian are elite warriors of pure righteousness. They are idealistic and serve a cause greater than themselves. They are holy warriors who belong to a particular faith, and serve to protect that faith, but also serve to protect a community, a nation, and/or its government. Paladins are the paragon example of staunch heroism; they are patriots, leaders, field marshals in battle, and are the very essence of the knight in shining armor. They live their lives under a...
As to your paladin build, I really enjoy it. It has aura powers to the Dungeonscape variant that I mentioned earlier in the thread. :-)
But I must say I'm really not a fan of the powers running off points, or at least what Barbarian looks like it's going to be.
That's a really neat take on the Paladin. Good job.
I really like the Lay on Hands Points. I have no complaints with point based features.
My only thought was that with Smite taking the spells that the Paladin used to get, he loses out on the flexability of a large spell list. Maybe instead of gaining the ability to cast just Dispel Evil at a certain level, he can use Smite to cast any 4th spell in the paladin spell list.
Just a thought.
Too much of a leap for backwards compatibility, yes. Too much of a leap to have me truly intrigued? Hell no! How would you execute this? I'd probably call it something else, but I'm genuinely interested. You've waved something in front of me that I didn't even know I wanted until now. Have you been doing something like that in a home game?
Thanks Timespike and Eyebite. I keep it simple. Mostly just minor tweaking of the standard Paladin class specials similar to the Variant Alignment Paladins in the SRD but for all 9 alignments and all classes. The PC becomes a Holy Warrior or Templar. Not as powerful as Gestalt or the Saint template at +2 LA but definitely more powerful than +0LA so +1 is a nice middle of the road compromise and the DM doesn't have to feel guilty if it "temporarily" lost due to an alignment change or campaign adventure.
Changing the Smite from Evil to the appropiate alignment for the Neutrals it can be plain Smite (Apply to the various Spells like Protection from Chaos/Evil or Magic Circle against Evil and spells like Bless Water remains the same or becomes Curse Water. The same for Dispel Evil it changes to the appropiate alignment. For the fullcasters it can be Smite Spell.
For the Special Mount ability I allow various creatures like the Holy Liberator PRC Call Companion which also includes the Mount option.
It is slightly Charisma and Wisdom Mad in addition to standard abilities but works in a point buy campaign.
Add Concentration, Knowledge Religion and Spellcraft to the PC if he does not have it as a class skill.
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That's a really neat take on the Paladin. Good job.
I really like the Lay on Hands Points. I have no complaints with point based features.
My only thought was that with Smite taking the spells that the Paladin used to get, he loses out on the flexability of a large spell list. Maybe instead of gaining the ability to cast just Dispel Evil at a certain level, he can use Smite to cast any 4th spell in the paladin spell list.
Just a thought.
My concept was to remove the spell list; this lack of flexibility is countered by the fact that it now removes the need for MAD (as others have put it) since you no longer will need a high wisdom.
Thanks for the compliments, guys. A couple of my favorite apsects of that paladin are: the ability to draw the attacks from the enemy instead of them attacking the paladins the comrades, and the Paladin's Ward to willingly absorb the damage sustained by another comrade, and the Mettle Ability. I saw that the Hexblade has this and the Pious Templar has it - the rogue has evasion - it just makes sense for a paladin to have mettle - and it removes the need to take a prestige class that offers it. I think mettle is a perfect fit for a paladin.
Robert
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...it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type...
I'm assuming you're referring to Judge Dredd, the future bus-pass-wielding, test-tube-matured lawman, and not 'Judge Dread' the Rastafarian Magistrate?
Yours,
Pedantic Brit Comics Fan
:)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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A while up the thread, I asked:
Hey, I have a question.
In Pathfinder, paladins need to have a patron god. (In order to have a patron god's choen weapon.) What are the limitations on this? I'm guessing that the Paladin needs to devote herself to one of the LG, NG, or LN gods, those being Erastil, Iomedae, Torag; Savenrae, Shelyn; Abadar, and Irori. Does that square with your understanding? Or should the Paladin's devotions be restricted to a LG god?
Irori's chosen weapon is unarmed strike. How can a Paladin's unarmed strike be "masterwork"?
And, how does the "bonuses don't stack with existing enchantments" work? If a paladin of Torag gets his hands on a battleaxe +1, I'm understanding that he can't make it +2, but he can make it flaming. At 8th level, he could make it +2, or some other ability that would add an effective +2 to its power. Does that make sense to you?
Can a Paladin's bond bring the weapon past +5 attack and danage bonus?
Can the paladin switch between these bonuses as a free action, or does it requre a move-equivalent action to switch from, say, +4 flaming to +1 brilliant energy?
...which seemed to get lost in the alignment kerfluffle. (One person did give what he thought was a reasonable interpretation of the bonded weapon plusses stacking.)
A few more thoughts...
I think it could make the Paladin very interesting if we keep him as a champion of good that draws out the evil in others and takes it into himself. (This is contrary to my former campaigning of making him more neutral concerning alignments)
"Evils" in this case could mean curses, poison, disease, damage and even actual evils where the Paladin affects the very alignment of the subject. I see the Paladin gaining this "Draw out Evil" ability very early on, so from even level 1 he can draw out things like disease from a person and instead subject himself to it. As he gains levels he also starts gaining immunity to these things, so he draws them out and since they don't affect him the disease, poison or curse just disappears.
Another idea is for the Paladin to be a shining beacon of truth, justice and honor. Looking into his eyes reflects your own sins back at you eroding your ability to lie and deceive him. He sees past trickery and deception, batting away even illusion to see what is true.
You could break these down into different abilities and spread them out across several levels as can be deemed appropriate. This might almost negate his need for spells as the Paladin can now in a way heal, remove poison, remove disease and break curses but ofcourse he's taking it onto himself so it's abit different that actually curing it (until the Paladin becomes immune). His ability to see past lies and illusion coupled with his unshakable devotion to what is good and just makes him a perfect magistrate or diplomat. He could bestow a penalty to deception and disguise to anyone that can physically see him and perhaps gain a bonus to resist the effect of illusion spells and effects.
A very high level ability might be a kind of "Wash away the Sins" kind of ability where after a certain prerequisite is met he can change a subjects alignment one step towards good, directly influencing the very core of someones being.
I find that giving him more abilities that are not as focused on combat could make him more solid and more of a "Champion" than he currently is. Ofcourse having a Paladin in the group is tough. You can't just do whatever you want with one of these guys around, you'll need to temper alot of your D&D adventurer instincts (kill 'em all and loot their bodies then just leave their bodies to rot! But with the Paladin it would be more like: Give them a chance to give up, spare the women and children, take nothing that is not yours and give them a proper burial.)
I think we should make having a Paladin mean more than just having someone that can smite and remove disease. That's what cleric/fighters are for really. Lets make having a Paladin awesome, but abit restrictive (in a fun way).
Anyone like this idea or where I'm going with this?
There's been no reason given why we can't have an option for dwarves that are six feet tall, so it's clear nothing stands in the way of that. All that is going to get said by the hardcore supporters of the current dwarf height is basically "But...he's always been short!" Let's allow more variety than just this cookie-cutter short dwarf. If we shouldn't allow it give a reason for it!
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There's been no reason given why we can't have an option for dwarves that are six feet tall, so it's clear nothing stands in the way of that. All that is going to get said by the hardcore supporters of the current dwarf height is basically "But...he's always been short!" Let's allow more variety than just this cookie-cutter short dwarf. If we shouldn't allow it give a reason for it!
True...except that they really shouldn't be called "dwarf" anymore as the name alone implies smallish. I guess you could call them "Tall Dwarves" but that would be about as stupid as coming up with a term like "Jumbo-Shrimp." :-)
Robert
There's been no reason given why we can't have an option for dwarves that are six feet tall, so it's clear nothing stands in the way of that. All that is going to get said by the hardcore supporters of the current dwarf height is basically "But...he's always been short!" Let's allow more variety than just this cookie-cutter short dwarf. If we shouldn't allow it give a reason for it!
Nothing to say a tall dwarf won't work, as long as he stays classed as a "Medium" sized creature as he currently is. Him being taller than usual doesn't really break the dwarf race.
Just as a Paladin of an alignment other than Lawful Good doesn't break the Paladin class as is, hell, nothing actually happens class ability wise if he's Chaotic Evil infact he'll propably be more effective fighting for power against other Chaotic Evil overlords with his nifty Smite Evil ability.You get it? The Paladin class doesn't even give a reason, mechanically speaking, for him to be Lawful Good. Nothing about his alignment fuels his class, it does give him a nifty roleplaying background but that's it. And a nifty background does not size up against the other reworked PFRPG classes.
I see two solutions to this and I've presented both in this thread.
Solution 1.
Give the Paladin more variety. This doesn't require much, a slight retooling of his class features to allow for multiple alignments. Slots that can be assigned to player chosen abilities similar to the Rogue (or fighter if you want to go the way of feats). However what this method does require is, dare I say it? It requires imagination and a willingness to let go of concepts that now stand in the way of the class rather than making it better.
Solution 2.
Make the Paladin even more "extreme". Make his alignment really matter. Build his goodness, his chivalry his self-sacrificing nature into the very class itself. Not just a silly code he must follow, make his abilities reflect the goodness in him. Essentially you make him a paragon of Good and a champion of Life since that IS the Paladin that people are going on about in this thread.
This is the most extensive of the fixes, requires alot of retooling and definitely the addition of some key abilities. This would be my latest suggestion from my post before this one.
So, lets get a bulleted list to ease criticism (and so people don't have to resort to parodies).
* The Paladin class is weak compared to its sibling classes; The Fighter, The Cleric.
* The mechanics of the Paladin is too easily applied to other alignments than Lawful Good. Either open it up to others or make it truly unique.
* Lets not make it about chivalry or honor. Those are concepts that can, and usually do, lead to truly despicable things and should have nothing to do with a champion of Good like the Paladin should be. Since we're working in a fantasy world there's not even need to bring that stuff in, lets make it about Good, Life, Justice etc. Stuff that in RL just doesn't really work.
On Paladin mechanics (Or "An Attempt to finally contribute to fixing the class instead of whining about alignments")
There's been plenty of suggestions to tie the Paladins spellcasting into the Charisma Score and I think that's a great idea. I'd like to see perhaps more synergies amongst the ability score of the Paladin. An ability fueled by 2 x Str + Cha or something like that. It could give more diversity among Paladins that specialize on other stats, but this is just a flash thought.
Definitely make him a spontaneous caster ala Favored Soul. It's not like his spellcasting is making him overpowered.
My recent experiences from playing a 3.5 Paladin (albeit a warforged Paladin, later a Juggernaut) were positive.
Ofcourse the racial abilities were a great help (full plate from level 1) and the campaign was Age of worms so I got to use my Paladin abilities almost every session.
Combat:
Fix: I don't see the reason for the "If you miss the smite is used up". Since you have so few attempts at smiting per day why not just let you atleast have it work? Like ruling that your Favored Enemy bonus stops working if you miss a hit against your Favored Enemy =p
Lay on Hands:
Fix: Seems fine, but mostly novel due to the low amount of hitpoints healed via this mechanic.
Turn Undead:
Aura of Courage + Divine Health + Divine Grace:
Fix: Nothing really...though it does seem abit "selfish" if you catch my drift. Sure the Aura of Courage does inspire people but the disease and Poison still is as vicious and since I can't really remove them I get to watch my friends die. Yey!
I must admit that after seeing the progression past level 6 I just said "Hell no" and prestige classed away from the base class.
Overall impression of the 3.5 Paladin: To sum it up in one word would be "Novel". The class and the concept it brings is...interesting but not horribly effective. I felt like my racial abilities and my racial prestige class was adding alot more to the roleplaying and party survival than the Paladin class itself. Selecting Leadership also helped alot (Artificer cohort). I wasn't too impressed with the class special abilities at higher levels since my comrades were emulating my immunities with items and since that only really leaves my smite as "iconic" it wasn't too impressive laid against the Rogue's sneak attack or the spell powerhouse of the wizard and Cleric.
That's not to say it wasn't fun playing that character. I have no doubt you can play this class and have fun. But it's just not good enough when pitted against the other base classes.
Now, the changes from level 1 - 6 in the PFRPG and how they compare with my experiences.
* Channel Positive Energy is alot more useful for the Paladin than the standard Turn Undead. This means he can hang onto his Lay on Hands for emergencies or when he needs to flash heal someone.
* Divine Bond is great. My horse was stabled for the entire adventure except for one ride between the city and a town. It was so pointless, but I did like the horse itself and I kept it fed and delegated some of my followers to groom it etc...it still just sucked up money for feed, training etc and I never had a chance to use it. The Divine Bond is a great idea for those that just don't want a mount or prefer a different type of Paladin.
* Remove Disease from 1/week to 1/day is just marvelous. It's alot more useful and it makes the Paladin more of an asset in disease ridden campaigns (like Age of worms).
I like the changes so far, but I think it needs to dangle more goodies to make you stay in the class and not prestige or multi-class away to greener pastures. Perhaps more abilities that function x paladin level to make a high level Paladin a true powerhouse. As it is in the current Alpha it's ALOT better than the old base-class but it needs more than just handy auras. It needs more "oomph" it needs more "Holy s$@! that's a friggin' Paladin coming our way! The earth is sizzling beneath his feet and the paint is peeling off the walls! Looking at him is like looking at your very soul immolated in pure white fire! MY EYES ARE BURNING! AAAAAAAH!"
You know...that sort of stuff.
True...except that they really shouldn't be called "dwarf" anymore as the name alone implies smallish.
Exactly.
A dwarf is "A small creature resembling a human, often ugly, appearing in legends and fairy tales." If they aren't smaller than humans, they aren't dwarves, even if they're a perfectly acceptable character race mechanically. Call 'em something else.
And the same thing is why you don't call a demonic destroyer a paladin. A paladin means "A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion." If a class isn't heroic and isn't a paragon of chivalry, the class isn't a paladin, even if it's a perfectly acceptable character class. Call it something else.
So, lets tally the common ideas here so far.
1. Cha-Based Casting: It works thematically, helps lower the MAD, and is backwards-compatible. Spontaneous casting and/or domain powers also an option.
2. Smite more often: How this is accomplished is still somewhat up in the air, as there have been suggestions about times per combat, linking it to holy points, or having it work more like favored enemy. I personally like the suggestion to make it a stacking buff that only applies against one enemy. Gives a very crusader-esque flavor, although it might have to be bumped up to a standard action to balance it.
3. Combining Lay on Hands with Remove Disease and Other Abilities: Usually this functions in the form of LoH or Holy points, which can not only be spent to heal but also to activate other nifty abilities. This one is pretty much up to the devs, but it does make backwards compatibility difficult.
4. L/G vs Other alignments: After careful consideration, I am siding with the L/G only crowd. To me at least, other alignments dont make sense. Only the lawful alignments would really have the devotion to follow the strict code that defines the paladin. If your Lawful Neutral, your a knight, not a paladin. If your Lawful Evil, your a blackguard, not a paladin. When push comes to shove the other alignments would not hold to the code if their other alignment spectrum was threatened, so they are not even following a knightly ideal at all. To quote a famous pirate, for them "the code is more what'cha call guidelines than actual rules." And thats not what a paladin is about.
However, each DM is free to rule this as they please. This is not a question for class mechanics but rather for player and DM preference. If your DM OKs it, its not hard to modify the class features to function for other alignments.
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"Evils" in this case could mean curses, poison, disease, damage and even actual evils where the Paladin affects the very alignment of the subject. I see the Paladin gaining this "Draw out Evil" ability very early on, so from even level 1 he can draw out things like disease from a person and instead subject himself to it. As he gains levels he also starts gaining immunity to these things, so he draws them out and since they don't affect him the disease, poison or curse just disappears.
That's how Healers worked in Rolemaster, IIRC.
They took on the injuries of their patient, yes, even to the point of breaking limbs and such, then they used personal-only spells to regenerate this damage.I always thought this was much more characterful than just going "Cure Light", "Cure Light", "Cure Serious", etc.
It helped that despite being a full caster, they were up with the Fighters, with the ability to buy themselves among the most stonking hit points in the game!
We're doing it again.
This is all variant/alternatives talk. From play test talk in another thread I got that paladins hold up in combat comparatively to barbarians. So whether or not they are "thematically" perfect, "mechanically," I'm seeing that they are just fine.
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We were discussing the paladin abilities and “smite points” on two other threads, but I thought to repost those ideas here, too. The main idea would be to build paladin with powers to similar to the barbarian. These powers would work with Faith/Divine Points (i.e. “smite points” ;).
This is my "upgraded" version of Shekaka's wonderful list from the original thread. I removed some of the powers I felt were not thematically or mechanically fitting to the paladin, and I have also added some powers and auras of my own, too, and I have modified some of the power descriptions and some names a bit.
I would separate three categories of paladin abilities: Auras, Smite “upgrades” and other class features (such as Divine Grace and Divine Bond). Paladin must choose his Smite and Aura powers as he progresses in levels. These abilities replace the paladin’s spellcasting abilities. You could only activate and maintain a single active Aura at a time with Faith Points, but "switching" between Auras would be a swift action? And, naturally, there would be level prerequisites for all Auras. Your Smite would automatically "upgrade" either with levels (you would inflict more damage and bypass DR more easier) and/or there could be additional effects you could spend Faith Points on (e.g. Stunning Smite, Healing Smite, etc.). I hope these ideas will inspire some discussion and feedback.
NOTE: All the paladin abilities in PF Alpha 2 should also be included in this list (so these "powers" are not supposed to replace them). In addition to this, I removed any references to “Divine Mana”, because I feel that’s a bit misleading concept. Also, I haven’t (yet) compared the point cost to the barbarian’s list, so I’m not sure if most powers costing 10-15 points would be a bit too much?
NOTE: It would be just fine if at least some of these abilities appear in the game as Divine Feats, if the Faith Points are generally seen as too profound a change. We iriginally "tested" them when they appeared in 3E supplements, and I think they really added some depth and variation to the paladin.
* * *
Starting at 1st level, a Paladin gains a number of Faith Points equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, he gains an additional number of Divine Mana points equal to 2 + his Charisma modifier. These points are restored at the rate of 1*your paladin level per hour (e.g. 10 Faith Points/hour for a 10th level paladin).
FAITH POWERS:
As the paladin gains experience, he learns to channel his divine abilities in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, the paladin gains one Faith Power. He gains an additional Faith Power for every two levels of paladin attained after 2nd level. The paladin cannot select an individual Faith Power more than once. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are free actions that must be performed on your turn. The paladin counts as his own ally for all purposes of these powers.
Shield Other ( Su): For 1 round + 1 round per point of his Charisma modifier the paladin may create an effect similar to the cleric spell Shield Other . This gives a +2 deflection bonus to an ally within 10 feet. (5 points)
Divine Reflexes ( Su): The paladin gains a dodge bonus to his armor class equal to 1/2 his Paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier against melee attacks. (10 points)
Divine Shield (Su): The paladin gains a sacred bonus to his armor class equal to ½ his paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. The paladin must be wearing a shield to use this power. This bonus stacks with any enhancement or armor bonus the shield already has. (10 points)
Divine Persistence (Su): The paladin may re-roll a failed saving throw. This power is used as an immediate action after the saving throw is failed. The paladin must take the second result, even if it is worse than the first result. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Divine Presence (Su): The paladin may add +4 Sacred Bonus to all his Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate checks for the duration of one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. In addition to this, for the duration of the effect, the paladin may use any Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skill check as a Swift Action. (5 points)
Divine Resistance( Su): For the duration of one round , the paladin gains Resistance 10 against any chosen energy type ( electricity, fire, cold, acid or sonic) per 5 Divine Mana points spent. The paladin cannot increase this beyond 30 resistance. A paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this ability. ( 5, 10, or 15 points)
Divine Might ( Su): For the duration of one round the paladin may add his Charisma modifier to his hit and damage rolls. ( 5 Points )
Divine Glory ( Su): As a standard action, the paladin can unleash a burst of radiant divine energy that dazes all evil beings within 30 feet radius who fail their Will saving throw versus DC 10 + ½ the paladin’s level + the paladin’s Charisma Modifier. This duration of this effect lasts for one round plus 1 round per the paladin’s Charisma Modifier (if any). Whether this saving throw was successful or not, each enemy caught within the burst is immune to this power for 24 hours. A Paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this power and he must have taken Stunning Smite. (15 points)
Divine Vigor ( Su ): The paladin may invoke this power to gain 3 temporary hit points per Faith Point spent up to the maximum number of points equal to his level. All damage to the paladin is first These hit points last until duration of these temporary hit points is one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier. ( Up to the maximum of 1 point per paladin level )
Mirror of Penance ( Su): The paladin chooses one adjacent evil and intelligent foe and as a free action can make an Intimidate check against him. If the Paladin successfully demoralizes his enemy, the foe is shaken for 2d6 rounds due to seeing a reflection of its own evil soul in the paladin’s eyes. (10 points)
Blessed Strike (Su): The paladin automatically confirms a critical hit on an evil enemy. This power is used as a swift action once a critical threat has been determined. A Paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Sacrifice of the Martyr ( Su): The paladin uses this power to protect an ally within 20 feet by taking half of all damage the chosen ally receives for 1 round. The paladin may not take this power until he reaches 8th level. ( 15 Points )
Sacred Mantle ( Su ): The paladin gains SR = 12 + Paladin Level for 1 round versus all spells or spell-like abilities from evil casters. This power may be activated as a swift action. The Paladin may not take this until 12th level. ( 15 points )
Hand of Glory ( Su): This power allows the paladin to touch an ally to restore 1d4 ability damage as per Lesser Restoration. This power may not be taken until 8th level. ( 10 points)
Divine Touch ( Su): To choose this power the Paladin must first have taken the Hand of Glory power. This power allows the paladin to touch an ally which functions as the Restoration spell. ( 15 points )
Sacred Vow (Su): The paladin may swear a sacred vow to his deity that he is going to defeat a certain enemy in combat. The paladin receives +2 morale bonus to all his attacks, damage and saving throws against this enemy for the number of rounds equal to one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier Bonus (if any). If the paladin fails to defeat that foe during this time, he immediately receives -2 to all rolls for the next 24 hours (the paladin must must deal the final blow to that enemy). (5 points)
Vengeful Smite ( Su): All of the Paladin’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of sacred damage against evil enemies for one round. This damage stacks with any sacred or holy damage dealt by special weapon abilities even if it is the same type. This power is used as a swift action before any attacks are made. A Paladin must be 12th level before selecting this power.(15 points)
Smite Infidel (Su): The paladin may smite any being who is not a worshipper of his or her deity. A paladin must be 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Healing Smite (Su): When the paladin smites, he heals hit point damage equal to half the damage his smite inflicts on the target creature. The paladin must be 4th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Martyr’s Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may sacrifice any number of hit points to gain extra damage dice for this attack. For every 5 hit points he sacrifices this way, he may roll an additional +1d6 sacred damage. The paladin must declare that he is using this ability before he attacks. The paladin must be 12th level before taking this power. (15 points)
Stunning Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin channels divine energy through his weapon, stunning his enemy for 1d4+1 rounds unless he succeeds in a Will saving throw versus DC 10 + ½ the paladin’s level + the paladin’s Charisma Modifier. Even if this saving throw is successful, the enemy is dazed for one round.
Glorious Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may also Channel Positive Energy through his weapon, healing all allies and damaging all evil undead in a 30 feet radius. Using this power also uses up one of his Turn Undead attempts for the day (if he hasn’t any left, he cannot use this power). The paladin must be 16th level before taking this power, and he must have taken Vengeful Smite. (20 points)
Banishing Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may choose not to do any damage to the target enemy. Instead, that enemy is targeted as per the Banishment spell with the paladin’s character level as the caster level. The paladin must be 16th level before taking this power. (20 points)
Relentless Smite (Su): The paladin may smite two adjacent opponents that are both within reach. Each attack is rolled separately. If he hits them both, damage is divided equally (round down) between them. The paladin must be 8th level before taking this power. (10 points)
Explosive Smite (Su): As the paladin smites, divine energy leaps from his weapon to strike enemies within 30 feet radius. If his smite attack hits, half of the smite damage is inflicted on the target (rounded down), and all the other enemies within 30 feet burst each receive half. The paladin must be 12th level before taking this power, and he must have taken Relentless Smite. (15 points)
Celestial Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin channels all his current divine energy into a single but ultimately powerful attack. He may double his paladin level to damage. He cannot smite again for 5 rounds. The paladin must be 12th level before taking this power , and he must have taken Relentless Smite. (20 points)
Aura of Blessing (Su): The paladin uses this power to bolster the saving throws and attacks of all allies within 10 feet radius. This effect is identical to the Bless spell, with the paladin’s character level as the caster level. (5 points per round)
Aura of Consecration (Su): All evil enemies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive -1 morale penalty to their attack rolls again the paladin’s allies. (5 points per round)
Aura of Light (Su): The paladin sheds light as a Daylight spell within 10 feet radius, and all beings vulnerable to daylight are affected as per the spell. (5 points per round)
Aura of Protection (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on all saving throws to all his allies within 10 feet radius. (5 points per round)
Aura of Vitality (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant Fast Healing 1 to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be 4th level before taking this power. (5 points per round)
Aura of Shielding (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on AC to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be 4th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Vengeance (Su): Any melee attacks against the paladin that deal damage inflict 1d6 sacred damage to whoever attacked the paladin, if that being is within 10 feet radius of the paladin. The paladin must be 8th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Truth (Su): All allies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive the benefits of True Seeing. The paladin must be 16th level before taking this power. (20 points per round)
Aura of the Martyr (Su): The paladin uses this power to protect all allies within 20 feet by taking half of all damage they receive. The paladin may not take this power until he reaches 12th level and he must have taken Sacrifice of the Martyr. (10 points per round)