I have to say I am very disappointed with Pathfinders Take on Paladins. You have failed to address some of the the major flaws in the class and instead have opted to add some shiny special abilities and call it good. Not that I don't like shiny new abilities, they are impressive and fun, but I had seriously expected more from you guys.
Problems, in no particular order besides the first:
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MULTIPLE STAT DEPENDANCY: It is nigh impossible to play an effective paladin with anything less than an effective 28 point buy. At anything less than an effective 32 point buy your still better off playing a fighter, barbarian, or cleric. Even at those exalted heights, your probably only going to be "almost as good" as a melee cleric or barbarian.
This has been a problem since (I believe) first addition. Paladins need a grand total of 4 primary stats, more than any other class. Strength and Constitution are both needed to supply the paladin's front-line agenda. Charisma is needed for all of the Paladin's special abilities EXCEPT spell-casting, which requires wisdom to the point where you must have a mod to start getting spells at the proper levels.
What's more, skimping on the remaining two stats hurts the Paladin severely. Skimp on Dexterity and your AC goes down, lowering your ability to tank for the party. Skimp on Intelligence and your already low skill selection becomes even worse, and leads to the "Lawful Stupid" type of paladin. The lack of Intelligence combined with the holy bent of the class has made the Paladin into the Jehovah's Witnesses of DnD (No offense to any JWs out there).
This is crippling at lower levels, where the game constantly demands that every member of the party be fulfilling a role. Assuming a 26 point buy, what is a paladin going to do? He will either have to stat himself like a fighter (giving up a large part of his paladin abilities in the process and not gaining anything in return) or spread his points out, wherein he wont be doing ANYTHING as well as the other classes potentially could. MSD is the most pressing issue facing paladins.
D8 HIT DICE: Is this a typo? Why was this change made? Paladins are a good attack progression melee class. They wear heavy armor. Why are they now getting the same HD as a cleric or druid, without the major perks of a full caster progression? The paladin mount is not THAT good. Doesn't this go against the design template laid out on page 35? What is going on here??
0-SLOT SPELL CASTING: Throw us a bone here. Paladins are already strapped for stats, and now we have to have a higher wisdom than other classes to even cast our spells? Frustrating, particularly when you are unlikely to be able to afford a Periapt of Wisdom on top of new armor, rings of protections, gauntlets of ogre power, con boosers, etc etc etc. Just give us a spell already, we don't mind waiting a while for the next one.
No Detect Evil? The non-caps title indicates I am of two minds about this. On the one hand, Detect Evil is a pain to use, a pain to mediate, and can often wind up turning allies against each other. It has led to the dreaded "Detect/Smite" paladin, which may be the very hight of paladin idiocy. On the other hand its a very flavorful ability, making a paladin very hard to deceive by the forces of evil and offsetting the lack of talent points to devote to sense motive. I could swing either way on this, and if the MSD issue was solved this would likely become a non-issue.
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Thats not to say there is nothing to love about the new paladin. The change from Turn Undead to Channel Positive Energy makes that ability significant again. The new ability to enhance your weapon instead of call a mount answers another significant problem with the classic paladin: Horses cant enter dungeons. I love the new Aura powers, particularly Aura of Justice and Aura of Righteousness. The 20th level capstone ability is a solid reason to stay in the class... if you can get to that point. But these problems are band-aids on the glaring weaknesses of the paladin class. There are some easy fixes that can be made, thankfully.
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SOLUTIONS:
Change paladin spell casting to run on Charisma instead of Wisdom. This fixes two problems with one change, first reducing the number of stats that the paladin relies on to 3 and making the annoying 0-slot spell casting less of a problem, since any paladin worth the name is going to at least have 12 charisma. With the new range of paladin abilities, a paladin will not feel as bad loosing some Dex, Wis, or Int to push up their charisma, and this allows for flexibility and diversity amongst paladins.
I would also like to see paladin skill points rise to 3 or 4. Without Detect Evil, Sense Motive becomes a much more important skill for paladins, and Int is still likely to be the dump stat of choice. Since you are still playing a hybrid caster/melee class you will likely also find yourself wanting both the caster skills (Spellcraft, Knowledge: Religion) as well as Paladin skills (Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Ride) and general skills (Perception, Climb/Jump/Swim, Heal)
Thats all I have for the moment. I will add more as I look through the Alpha more, and as other good fixes are suggested. GO FORTH AND DISCUSS!
A good post Glan Var, as an associate of yours I felt I should put my two cents in as well.
One potential fix to the Multiple Stat Dependancy AND "Secondary Caster Suck" could be something similar to the Rogue talent abilities. A class feature/bonus feat that has a short list of options attached to it. One such option could be the use of a certain spell as a spell like ability 3x per day or such. This could open up room for certain new abilities that fit well with the Paladin image, like a reckless strike that trades AC for Damage, or even an ally defending moves like some of the abilities of the 3.0 Devoted Defender.
Were up to 6 cents now. Who wants to add to the change jar?
- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
NO to the non LG thing...just no
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NO to the non LG thing...just no- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
I agree, for that you have Paladins of freedom and Paladins of slaughter.
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I have to say I am very disappointed with Pathfinders Take on Paladins. You have failed to address some of the the major flaws in the class and instead have opted to add some shiny special abilities and call it good. Not that I don't like shiny new abilities, they are impressive and fun, but I had seriously expected more from you guys.
Hmm...I find the Paladin overconsidered as an exclusively Dark Ages Creature.
1. The reality is that He/She is the Warrior of Virtue and Light we send into hell to hold the door closed from the inside. That is as much a Barbarian Tribe quality (The Guy we expel from the tribe because what he battles taints him and anyone in spitting distance - thus he fights the forces of evil out there in the shadows of what is not acceptable to the tribe).
2. Frankly Ideas like Loyalty to the Government status quo prop up Tyranny. Consider the Paladin told by his God to Bring about Government that requires the Regular Consensus of every citizen regarding every act of Government, Law, Constitution, and Sovereign to legitimize its Authority and protect the individual's right to an equal share of the benifits and obligations of citizenship.
That is Diametrically opposit all other forms of Government including Democracy Yet it is Lawful Good in the extreem.
Solutions: Diversify the Class into a More Generic Type like Fighter or make it a collection of Prestiege classes so that there different Historical/cultural categories (A Barbaric Paladin, A Knightly Paladin, etc.).
Similarly...Look at the Loyalty to Government poop! The Paladin's First Loyalty should always be to life. All life. Regimes that threaten even a single life no matter the excuse should be the enemy.
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I don't want to nit pick here, but shouldn't this be in the Races and Classes section? I ask because the Alpha 1 part of the site ended up SO confusing once people started posted anything they wanted anywhere they wanted.
Let's all try to honor the main headers in the Alpha 2 section and post in the correct places.
Thanks!
Back on topic, overall I LOVE this new Alpha 2 release and mostly like what I read about the Paladin (although this class probably still has the most room for improvement compared to the others)
I have to say I am very disappointed with Pathfinders Take on Paladins. You have failed to address some of the the major flaws in the class and instead have opted to add some shiny special abilities and call it good.
I think people need to check the 'voice' of their criticism before submitting. You have some valid points here but it's so heavy handed and dire sounding that it's hard to take seriously.
About the only thing I think is probably a no-brainer change is to give the paladin (and ranger for that matter) the same access to 0-level "at will" spells. I hope to see this in the future.
The Wis-based casting doesn't seem to me to be a big deal, the boost in turning is more than enough "oomf" for the class.
28 point buy plus humans getting +2 ability boost kind a sinks the whole stat argument in my opinion.
I think the only real change should be the CHA-based casting. Other then that I think people need to PLAYTEST it out first before saying anything else really needs adjustment. Too many people are saying some class features or adjustments are failures when the adjustments where just released a couple days ago.
Try it out first at least.
MULTIPLE STAT DEPENDANCY: It is nigh impossible to play an effective paladin with anything less than an effective 28 point buy. At anything less than an effective 32 point buy your still better off playing a fighter, barbarian, or cleric. Even at those exalted heights, your probably only going to be "almost as good" as a melee cleric or barbarian. (SNIP)
Our group uses a lot of Paladins and we see this argument come up quite often. In our experience it is simply not true. The Paladin needs a good wisdom score, at least a 12, and a good charisma score, at least a 12, hopefully a 14.
Str, Dex, Con, Int - all of these can be set at whatever rate the player wants for their character. Low Str works because they have an awesome BAB and can smite to add to their attack rolls. Low Dex works because they can wear any armor and use shields freely. Low Con works because they have a good HD and have an awesome amount of healing. Low Int can work as long as the player is happy they're trading skill ranks for other benefits.
Within the same structure as all of the other classes, paladins do fine. I'm not saying this is necessarily true for your group, but other local groups we met who said the same thing, all expected to have at least an 18 ability score in their primary attribute (prime requisite? LOL) and considered anything less than a 14 a 'lost cause'. Maybe we just have lower expectations of what a 'good' score is, but, seriously, paladins would not have become one of our group's favorite classes since the release of 3.0 if they had been as badly screwed for stats as a lot of groups make out.
:)
Peace,
tfad
Disclaimer 1: I haven't played a PF paladin
Disclaimer 2: I don't like paladins in general, mostly because they get stuff by adhering to some undefined code. I liked 2nd Ed cavalier-paladins (who were more LN than LG) BECAUSE their code was clear. I dislike monks for the same reason.
That said, Detect Evil at will is a paladin ability. Has been for a while, and has to remain for backwards compatibility. BUT I had hoped for an option to take Detect Chaotic and Smite Chaotic instead, and they didn't surface.
It is clear that Barbarian and Rogue were made specifically to be flexible. Cleric, Wizard, and Sorcerer choose a path at first level and walk it all their careers. Druid, Fighter, and Paladin are just straightjacketed into their roles; this doesn't say CLASS to me, it says 'specific path choice of a base class'.
I disagree with the core paladin concept demonstrated by the main post of this thread. There is some belief that paladins should be able to fight as well as the fighter and still have bonus clerical abilities. THAT vision of the paladin I'll oppose to my dying days. That, or respec all classes to balance with the monk-paladin level of power.
What I propose instead is that the paladin is a combat-primary class that divides its attention between martial and divine power. If you want more than half-caster clerical abilities, you give up some of your fighter abilities. If you want to be more combat-intense, give up some of the holy abilities. This honestly sounds more like multi-classing than a core class concept; my point here is that if paladin is its own class it should balance with both 'donor' classes, not seek the full abilities of both. There are gestalts for that.
On the issue of paladin alignments, I'd like to point out that basic DnD had paladin-knight-avenger as the name level progression of the fighter. If one upheld Law, one was a paladin. If one served Chaos, one became an Avenger (anti-paladin). Normal folks just became Knights. To me, this speaks of class options for fighters, or prestige classes. It doesn't speak to me specifically of Lawful Good, though it obviously does to a lot of people. Again, for backwards compatibility, the alignment restriction has to remain.
In the end, I'm going to leave paladin for other people to playtest. Honestly, I'm not the person to give that class a fair and unbiased testing. I feel that paladin and monk should have gone the way of the Assassin class; something neat that was tried but doesn't balance with the rest of the classes.
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Skimp on Intelligence and your already low skill selection becomes even worse, and leads to the "Lawful Stupid" type of paladin. The lack of Intelligence combined with the holy bent of the class has made the Paladin into the Jehovah's Witnesses of DnD (No offense to any JWs out there).
Dude, I'm not even a Jehovah's Witness and I'm offended by this. Can we try to avoid pointless religious slurs and bigotry in our game discussion, please?
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I'm really happy with the changes to paladins in the Alpha 2 release. My biggest concern for the class is actually that they might build up too many immunities at high level, which is a current 3.5 problem that Paizo's spell changes go a long way toward limiting.
The increases to racial abilities already address the MSD, imo. Wisdom makes sense as their casting stat because it matches the way clerics are granted spells.
I don't think point-buy is the best creation method for paladins. I see the paladin apart from the other base classes, and I think that is intentional. Adventurers are already special people, either by outstanding physically, mentally, or through their willingness to take on big challenges. I see the paladin as 'just a little bit more' special than those heroes; a character recognized by a deity for having the qualities of a true champion. Perhaps I don't take into account the larger plans of those gods, who occasionally call to service paladins of lesser ability whose successes could be even more meaningful. And some paladins' purpose seem to be as martyrs for their faithful fellows.
Example:
Deity-of-good: "Paladin Bob the Unsightly, take this relic blade and enter the Swamp of Nasty Things. There your destiny awaits."
100 years later...
Deity-of-good: "Paladin Jose the Bold, your ancestor Bob died on a holy quest. Go and recover the relic blade he carried into the Swamp of Nasty Things."
- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
Shifting spellcasting to Charisma and doing a talent system similar to the rogue would allow for alternate versions of the paladin (by which I meant the farmboy called to service as well as the holy knight). This would also allow Paizo to feature an alternate spell list and talent list for the anti-paladin in the future (as has been discussed elsewhere).
I really like the idea of changing the Paladins spells to Charisma based
I think the paladin might finally be worth taking more than the first few levels (so one of the goals was reached)
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- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
I completely agree, I've been saying this for a long time.
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Shifting spellcasting to Charisma and doing a talent system similar to the rogue would allow for alternate versions of the paladin (by which I meant the farmboy called to service as well as the holy knight). This would also allow Paizo to feature an alternate spell list and talent list for the anti-paladin in the future (as has been discussed elsewhere).- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
Or just get rid of spells altogether. With some choic spell-like abilities to replace, the spells of a paladin are lackluster system at best - when you consider the MSD, the level at which you start getting them, and the small number that you get
Robert
It is clear that Barbarian and Rogue were made specifically to be flexible. Cleric, Wizard, and Sorcerer choose a path at first level and walk it all their careers. Druid, Fighter, and Paladin are just straightjacketed into their roles; this doesn't say CLASS to me, it says 'specific path choice of a base class'.
I don't really think the Druid is any more straightjacketed (in terms of game-mechanical choices) than the Wizard.
Wizard = one of 8 schools to specialise in or generalist; either familiar or bonded object
Druid = one of 7 domains to choose from or animal companion
I agree with the Paladin, though. The Fighter is a bit of a special case: on one hand, it doesn't get any fancy bells & whistles, but on the other hand the sheer number of feats gives it a huge number of choices (the more splatbooks you're using, the more possible choices).
How about allowing a Paladin to choose a domain?
I have no problem with Paladins choosing a Domain at 4th level when they get their spells, and advancing with it at caster-level. (I have a slight twinge at letting them have it at 1st, but I could live with that, too.)
I don't see why druids and clerics and rangers all use WIS to call upon the divine and yet the paladin would use CHA. OTOH [DEVILS_ADVOCATE] he is the one who has the most chance of being chummy with those celestial beings responsible for channeling the holy magic into the Prime Material. [/DEVILS_ADVOCATE]
Disclaimer: If the other divine casters had feat options available to let them do the same, I have no problems with Paladins getting this as a class feat. I'm tempted to ask for a similar feat that allows them INT as divine caster to emulate Mystic Theurge, but instinct tells me that's even more broken.
I appologize, I missed the option of the druid to pick a Domain instead of animal companion. It's not the first mistake I've made, nor will it be the last.
If the paladin is an EXCEPTIONAL adventurer, then he should be PrC. ALTHOUGH, I see the argument of the holy farmboy as a reason to keep it as a base class. Do we have any examples from literature?
[EDIT] Like Joan d'Arc? I hate thinking of stuff as soon as I hit the SUBMIT button. [/EDIT]
If the paladin is an EXCEPTIONAL adventurer, then he should be PrC. ALTHOUGH, I see the argument of the holy farmboy as a reason to keep it as a base class. Do we have any examples from literature?
[EDIT] Like Joan d'Arc? I hate thinking of stuff as soon as I hit the SUBMIT button. [/EDIT]
Luke Skywalker. :)
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For the most part I like the new paladin. There are some things I would have liked to see though.
1. The mount or a celestial companion. How many adventures do you get to have mounted combat unless your a halfling on a dog.
2.Would rather have a point system than per day.
3. Domain spell abilites.
4 LG, LE, LN
5. like the bonded weapon
6. remove disease or lay on hands.
MULTIPLE STAT DEPENDANCY: It is nigh impossible to play an effective paladin with anything less than an effective 28 point buy. At anything less than an effective 32 point buy your still better off playing a fighter, barbarian, or cleric. Even at those exalted heights, your probably only going to be "almost as good" as a melee cleric or barbarian.
As mentioned by other posters, all core races get an additional +2 stat mod, with humans getting +2 to any one stat of their choosing. Depending on how you spend your points, that is a freebie worth anywhere from 4 to 8 points, which means a 28-point buy now is effectively a 32-point buy game for all players.
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Dude, I'm not even a Jehovah's Witness and I'm offended by this. Can we try to avoid pointless religious slurs and bigotry in our game discussion, please?
My apologies. I did not mean to slur, only to make a comparison between the way individuals paint a bad picture of the whole. Jehovah's Witness (Witnesses?) are by and large good and faithful people, but their image has been distorted by the overzealous members of that group. In the same way, the low intelligence self righteous paladins have tarnished the class for many gamers.
More to come on other comments ^_^
I don't see why druids and clerics and rangers all use WIS to call upon the divine and yet the paladin would use CHA. OTOH [DEVILS_ADVOCATE] he is the one who has the most chance of being chummy with those celestial beings responsible for channeling the holy magic into the Prime Material. [/DEVILS_ADVOCATE]
It could be something like the sorcerer, where it is an inborn ability. Like your example, Joan d'Arc, Paladins could carry the divine within them and call it out through force of personality rather than raw devotion. This could also lead to some interesting concepts of paladins that have unique ways of connecting with the divine spark within them, like hearing voices or having dreams that point them towards the righteous path.
Str, Dex, Con, Int - all of these can be set at whatever rate the player wants for their character. Low Str works because they have an awesome BAB and can smite to add to their attack rolls. Low Dex works because they can wear any armor and use shields freely. Low Con works because they have a good HD and have an awesome amount of healing. Low Int can work as long as the player is happy they're trading skill ranks for other benefits.
The problem is not that they suffer from one or two of these, its that they tend to suffer from all of them at once.
Lets do a comparison. A higher than average 26 point buy, with two humans. The fighter will obviously push his physical stats. This will land him with some fairly sweet scores:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 8
For a fighter, thats an impressive spread, especially when you consider that he still has 2 points to put wherever he likes just for being a human. He will be very effective as a front-line fighter, even before he has access to heavier armor.
Now lets look at the same point buy for a paladin, using your suggestions.
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 14
Thats a fairly standard paladin spread. Its acceptable, but you will note that the paladin will have 2 fewer hp per level and 1 fewer AC than the fighter. Thats assuming you spend your human points on the same thing. Its also before you begin to grow in level and the paladin has to start choosing between enhancing his melee prowess and his paladin abilities. The fighter will never have that problem, and will always be able to focus on melee.
This is not entirely a problem, as the classes should have different flavors, but a paladin shouldn't have to spend twice the points and money to be as good as the fighter at their shared primary job. Paladin healing is balanced by feats like toughness that simply grant more HP permanently. Smite is balanced by weapon focus and specialization. The mount is a serious perc, but you don't get it until 5th level, and will often have to leave it behind or risk loosing it.
So we come back to the beginning, with most abilities being roughly equal the paladin has to simply spend more effort and money to fulfill the same role. And sadly, a paladin who strives to reach that level simply wont have the resources to capitalize on any of his other abilities or skills that might be enhanced by his wider spread of ability scores.
Are these problems lessened by the changes in pathfinder? Definitely. Are they gone? Definitely not. They changes don't need to be huge, but I would hate such simple fixes to go unmade when there is already so much to like about Pathfinder.
I don't want to nit pick here, but shouldn't this be in the Races and Classes section? I ask because the Alpha 1 part of the site ended up SO confusing once people started posted anything they wanted anywhere they wanted.Let's all try to honor the main headers in the Alpha 2 section and post in the correct places.
Thanks!
Didn't see that section until you mentioned it. Sorry! Can we get this moved somehow?
I like every thing about the new paladin EXCEPT the lack of detect evil. I do kind of wish you could switch between the bonded weapon and the bondd mount, i.e. you could switch at level changes, in case, say, for one level you were fighting campaign out in the open, then you switch to a more traditional dungeon crawling section of the story.
Other than that, I think its a good adaptation.
Here's an idea: replace Detect Evil with a bonus to Sense Motive that increases with Class Level.
Here's an idea: replace Detect Evil with a bonus to Sense Motive that increases with Class Level.
Oooh, that goes on the list.
Would it be too gamebreaking if the divine bond could manifest as EITHER weapon or mount? Effectively, make the choice while praying in the morning, regarding which you use that day?
That has merit to me, but maybe thats just me.
Here is the deal on Detect Evil though, paladin's have always had it. Its a defining trait of the class. "Famous" paladins from the game (like Dragonbait!) have used the ability. It has very clearly not been just a keen ability to sense motive.
I could live with limiting it to a number of uses per day, for example, but the paladin really has to have the ability to do this, or else it suddenly feels like this paladin class isn't quite the paladin class of 3.5 (and not only is this a bit of a deviation from "backwards compatibility," but its a deviation from the stated tenant of not really taking anything away, just adding or clarifying class features).
Would it be too gamebreaking if the divine bond could manifest as EITHER weapon or mount? Effectively, make the choice while praying in the morning, regarding which you use that day?
That has merit to me, but maybe thats just me.
I don't see why it would. It would certainly let the cavaliers be not entirely lost without their mounts. And from the other direction it would allow paladins who didn't focus on their mount to still have the overland speed boost.
It would set a precedent for the other abilities that function like this however. So you would have to consider the effect on druids, sorcs, and wizards.
I think that the Detect Evil spell and hence a paladin's Detect Evil should be changed in a way similar to Identify (which now give a bonus on Appraise checks).
Perhaps the Detect Evil spell should grant a static bonus on Sense Motive checks versus evil creatures and whatnot and the paladin's version of it would be +1/level on Sense Motive checks versus evil creatures.
This would keep the flavor of the spell and more importantly the paladin's keystone talent without it guaranteeing that every evil creature will automatically be detected.
In fact, I think I've just made a new houserule for my campaign.
All those changes are good and all but I have just one request: Drop the damn alignment restriction.
Not to be arguementative...but...the alignment restriction is really one of the most iconic things about paladins. They are the ultimate warriors of chivalrous virtue. Chivalry (a strict code)=law. Virtue=good.
A non-LG paladin is something else altogether.
Not to be arguementative...but...the alignment restriction is really one of the most iconic things about paladins. They are the ultimate warriors of chivalrous virtue. Chivalry (a strict code)=law. Virtue=good.
A non-LG paladin is something else altogether.
QFT there
Not to be arguementative...but...the alignment restriction is really one of the most iconic things about paladins. They are the ultimate warriors of chivalrous virtue. Chivalry (a strict code)=law. Virtue=good.
A non-LG paladin is something else altogether.
Paladin in D&D=Representer of their alignment and/or deity. I probably should have mentioned that.
lmao... a 4 stat character... fist off str is not important to a pally. you smite, power attack, ect... so damage isnt an issue. , AC? a tower shield isnt good enough for you? or H steel shield and fighting defensivly whilt smiting isnt good enough? huh (thats with a 0 mod to dex full plate, H steel shield, and fighting defensivly is a 22 ac 24 with a tower shield). thats isnt good enough to tank? con is worthless because you have layon hands which can be used in combat without provoking. so all you really need is a cha of 14 or better and a wisdom of 14 or better at LEVEL 14.... right its a 4 ability class. you sure know how to build characters man.... haha
First, Truesidekick, your post is laden with a derisive tone that is not needed nor wanted on these boards. Moving past that, lets examine your post.
No need for strength. Smite can be done a limited number of times per day. Power attack requires strength to be taken/effective, in either Pathfinder or 3.5 rules. Additionally, if you want to be in something other than your heavy load all the time, you need a strength of at least 13 to wear your armor, tower shield, and longsword. And nothing else.
Again, a tower shield is 45 pounds, a costly investment in weight. Fighting defensively requires intelligence, which means you are already compromising other stats. Doing it while smiting seems pointless; why lower the chance that your best attack will hit?
Con is worthless? I am tempted to leave that comment alone for others to tear apart, but lets just say Nitharit, Black Lotus Extract, Cloudkill, and Finger of Death. Divine Grace only goes so far keeping you alive, and things like cloudkill hit your con regardless of a made save. Lay on hands is good, but it is a supplement for a marginally lower con mod, not a replacement for an absent one.
Its true that one could start with a 10 wisdom and simply put level up points into it and be fine. What about those who want to start with more than a 10 wisdom? Those who want to play wise paladins, who think before they act? Perhaps its just the experience of myself and Glan Var, but I have seen too many "detect thump" paladins to tolerate anything that forces the class into that mindset.
Finally, try not to end comments with a derogatory dig at the origional speaker, followed by laughing at them. You won't make many freinds, regardless of the forum. As it is, you merely helped me define the way I'm going to portray Todd Vanderboren in my Shackled City game tomorrow. And I do realize I'm not heeding my own advice by saying that. In my defense, I'm stating a fact about an inspiration that resulted from your action, not an opinion of your capability as a player.
Alright, back to your regular posting schedule.
ok so
a 10 wisdom is a wise character, people focous too much on 16-18 as good. a wise person is 10 or more, so play your wise pally .. with a 10str only a 13 is required
int 12 or none if you dont care much about skills or are allowing the jack of all trades feat in your game.
dex 10
con 10
cha is the most important ability and should always be the highest possable.you said poisons didnt you? well if i have my cha to saves and a cloak of cha +6 or what ever at an 18 base you have +6 to saves at level 7. with a so i have a 11 fort yeah thats good enough to beat most poisons. maby im getting confused with 3.5 here and they changed these class abilities but...
10 is not a wise character. 10 is an average person, just like 10 is not strong, dexterous, smart, charismatic, or inteligent. And I never said 16-18 was target for scores. I consider 12 above average, and 14 is good. 16 is excellent, 18 is awesome (as in it inspires awe in the common folk).
So 10 Wisdom is not enough to be wise. Technically, I wouldn't consider a stat without at least a +1 to be "wise" or any other positive descriptor.
Intel 12 for skills is fine with me, but as a prereq for combat expertise I just cant see the use of spending a feat to take 1 off attack and add 1 to AC. Many better feats out there, even in core rules.
Dex 10 is fine with me, I never said dex was terribly neccesary. I still disagree with Con 10 though. At least a 12, preferably more.
Your comment on charsima is confusing when referenced to your previous comment about high scores, but regardless, even with an 18, good fort, and a Con of 10, you have a +7 at level 2. Impressive, yes. But you can still fail the save against DC 13 poison (a reasonable DC at that level) on a roll of 5 or less. If you lowered that charsma to a 16 and put the points in con for a 14 with 2 to spare, you would actually raise your fort save by 1 point overall, and get 2 extra HP per level. And again, cloudkill does 1d4 con damage, save for half, so an extra 4 points of con is an extra 2 rounds you live on average in a cloudkill area of effect.
And if your DM lets you get a cloak of Charisma +6 at level 7, you need a new DM, because he is not paying any attention to relative wealth levels and the treasure tables. At that point as the rogue I would be expecting to get my ring of blinking shortly.
Lets see, what do I feel are "acceptable" paladin stats? From a 25 point buy, with Pathfinder Races, using human.
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 14 +2 human
I have one stat point left, which would go into either dex or intel, depending on character concept. I could sacrifice points from those to bring one of the 14s to a 15. Con could be lowered to 12 in combination with dex or int to bring a 14 up to a 16, but thats about it. It does seem a bit restrictive to me that its hard to see any other deviations from this spread as viable.
All those changes are good and all but I have just one request: Drop the damn alignment restriction.
(1) Since AD&D, paladins have been Lawful Good.
(2) Since AD&D, there have always been optional rules for other paladins.I don't see any pressing reason to change the status quo. All the non-LG paladins you need are easily available in UA. Upgrading them to PFRPG is left as a (trivial) exercise for the reader.
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(I have posted this on a number of threads, because I'd really want to see how people feel about it!)
To make paladins more "versatile", I think their class abilities should work just like the barbarian's Rage Points do: why wouldn't the paladins get "Smite Points", or whatever you wish to call them? You could activate any of your Paladin Auras, Weapon Bond, Smite Evil, etc. -- why not even Turn Undead/Channel Positive Energy? That would be mechanically consistent, too, because barbarian's abilities work like this, as noted.
I would definitely add 'Shield Bond' to paladins, so you could channel divine energy into your shield instead of your weapon. And in any case there should optional Auras (at least picked with Divine Feats if not as class abilities).
BTW, as I already posted elsewhere, too, I wouldn't mind fighters getting 'Adrenalin Points' that they can use to activate their class related abilities (such getting bonuses for one round to Initiative, AC, HPs, Fort/Will Saves etc.).
My 2 cents....
I like the idea of "smite" or "holy" points. Combine that with their turning ability so they can decide where to spend the points on a given day.
Giving a paladin the option of channeling power into a shield or weapon is a great idea.
What happened to detect evil? Or perhaps Pallies get the option of choosing detect evil or detect lie at 1st level.
Spellcasting should be charisma based
Alignment: I like the idea o paladins of any "good" alignment. Each one (LG, NG, CG) would have slightly different powers/abilites and class skills
Hit Die = d10 (hope the d8 is a typo)
I have given up on the "templar" idea for paladins being any alignment but they could atleast be any good. for the most part I am pleased with how paladin turned out I think with alittle review and editing this could go well.
An idea me and my friends have been playing around with is taking dragon disciple and building into sorcerer, like lich is built into dread necromancer (god let me not be the only person to buy heros of horror). This concept is very attractive to players being that they can gain an ultimate goal without level adjustment. Well back to the point I was playing around with half-celestial with paladin and half fiend with warlock. Just and idea at the moment very little play time has gone into this (roughly 6 hours) but it seems to flow well.
This helps offset the huge problem of paladin ability scores. Paladins are odd creatures because they need a atleast some str con wis AND cha, not to mention if you want a extra skill thats a 12 int, and wear a breatplate thats a 16 dex (so you can even pass ride checks at low levels). The template takes the standard balanced paladin stats:
14 str (provided you get 28 point buy)
14 dex
14 con
12 int
12 wis
14 cha
Now at level 20 the paladin stats change to this as base
18 str
16 dex (for breatplate or mithiril armors)
18 con
14 int
16 wis (for 4th level paladin spells)
18 cha
You have a floating 5 points from leveling to add which wouldnt do much maybe gain a 23 in one stat or 2 20s and a 19. This template puts the paladin on par with other characters of the warrior type who dont have to sink have their abilities to fuel their abilities (ie fighter and barbarian, range ahs a problem sorta like paladin but less extreme.)
Just a thought.
I would definitely add 'Shield Bond' to paladins, so you could channel divine energy into your shield instead of your weapon. And in any case there should optional Auras (at least picked with Divine Feats if not as class abilities).
Like the idea of this as well - what about broadening it out to "Armour Bond" too? - the proverbial "Armour of God" if you will - this would make them able to better protect themselves and could work in tandem with some of the optional Auras to offer protection to their fellow adventurers/followers etc.
Just a northman's ten pennies worth on the subject...
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- MSD *is* a problem. Solution: make the Paladin a CHA-based caster. Even better: make him a spontaneous CHA-based caster (like a divine sorcerer-figther type)
- it would be *very* nice to have a Paladin open to other alignments. Make it a 1st level choice (like the sorcerer's bloodline) if he's LG (classic paladin), LN ("Judge Dread", "I AM THE LAW" type), or LE ("Anti-paladin"). This won't hurt backwards compatibility one bit.
I would LOVE to see the multi-alignment Paladins again, I don't recall seeing since First Edition, when Dragon published an article that had a Paladin for every alignment. That was some serious fun!!