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... because I thought it was one of the best racial abilities in D&D ever (in fact, my whole group thinks this way). Did it really create so much controversy? Yet the weird 'Elven immunities' is still in, although if any racial ability should have been cut, IMO it would have been this one (it never made sense to me, even in AD&D).
... because I thought it was one of the best racial abilities in D&D ever (in fact, my whole group thinks this way). Did it really create so much controversy? Yet the weird 'Elven immunities' is still in, although if any racial ability should have been cut, IMO it would have been this one (it never made sense to me, even in AD&D).
I'm glad this happened. I never understood why elven beauty would effect a dwarf or other longer lived races. I also didn't think beauty was that cut and dry. What if my half-orc likes busty redheads with some meat on there bones? Why would an elf effect him? What if my dwarf likes his women short, thick, and a bit on the hairy side? It was neat idea, but I don't feel like it was a fair and equal or practical racial trait.
Fizz
Director of Game Design
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We cut the Elven Beauty bit because it was a rule that forced certain roleplaying decisions. A GM should be free to have an NPC be indifferent toward an elf without having to come up with some side justification. The ability was also tricky to clarify without relying heavily on GM fiat.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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We cut the Elven Beauty bit because it was a rule that forced certain roleplaying decisions. A GM should be free to have an NPC be indifferent toward an elf without having to come up with some side justification. The ability was also tricky to clarify without relying heavily on GM fiat.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That said, if your campaign setting involves the Tolkienesque approach to elves, the Unnatural Beauty makes a great houserule mechanic to represent that.
What about a plus to there diplomacy check like plus 5 or somthing
I also didn't think beauty was that cut and dry. What if my half-orc likes busty redheads with some meat on there bones? Why would an elf effect him? What if my dwarf likes his women short, thick, and a bit on the hairy side?
I feel like this when flicking through the pages of Maxim!
:)
/threadjack
tfad
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What about a plus to there diplomacy check like plus 5 or somthing
As a houserule or as canon?
As a houserule, sure, whatever you want.As canon, it has the same problem Jason mentioned of enforcing a certain style of play. Since the Diplomacy DCs for each attitude level are 5 apart, giving a +5 to Diplomacy is basically making everyone treat that PC as if they were one step friendlier.
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I liked the ability but I could see it needing to be ruled on work. Maybe add it as a sidebar option to give elves that Tolkeinesque feel?
A great suggestion, Phalazar!
Jason, I like the choices/options you have put in the game (e.g. Arcane Bond, when you choose between a familiar or a "focus" item). How about including choices to Racial Abilities? For example, choosing between Elven Immunity or Unnatural Beauty for elven characters?
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I liked the ability but I could see it needing to be ruled on work. Maybe add it as a sidebar option to give elves that Tolkeinesque feel?What about a Feat ?
That would require that every race gets "Racial Feats" -- not just elves. But it might work out pretty well, if Jason (who is probably already overburdened with design work) only has the time to design a bunch of them :)
So, they lost that. Don't they get anything in return? Like +2 Cha. They could use it, -2 Con is brutal. (And I'd give dwarves more than -2 Cha. That's not even a penalty. They'd get -2 dex to boot)
I liked Unnatural Beauty at a conceptual level, but mechanically it presented a lot more problems it was worth... I guess it's better this way.
Errrrrr.... What?
My venom towards the 'mere' +5/+10 provided by the UnNatural Beauty: No other race has ANYTHING similar, and Diplomacy is a key social skill. This means ONLY elves get this bonus, which is more than double what any other race gets for their skill bonuses.
[JOKE]As for what elves should get in return, how about a -2 CHA for not ever being trusted as a race again after trying to pull that UnNatural Beauty schtick?[/JOKE]
Besides, I see Halflings and Humans, in that order, having FAR more claim to the diplomacy skill bonus than elves do.
To answer the initial question:
Because it sucked!
As it was written, Unnatural Beauty would have allow all elves to be massive con artists.
"Indifferent" people were automatically considered "friendly" to elves. Taking 10, they could be made helpful. At this point the target could be talked into possibly risking their lives to help the elf, or at least offering a good discount of gear because the need is so great (by simply taking 10 again).
The concept was good, but mechanically it was terrible.
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I like elves, but I absolutely detested the 'unnatural beauty part'. Oh I pray that it is gone! The unnatural beauty idea was the first thing to kill 3.75 for me, saying to me that "This guy hasn't thought anything about how this is going to play out... So, elves are going to be so beautiful that their mere walking past causes other races to fall over themselves, fawning?" An automatic shift one reaction level would seem to be almost that, especially when played out over population averages: Isn't that fantastic dwarven metal- and stonework that gets known across the land mostly reflected in a +2 Craft bonus. The legendary eleven archers are reflected only in a general proficiency (no bonus, even?)? The hulking strength of half-orcs in a +2 STR stat bonus (only a +1 skill/melee modifier)? Etc, etc.
I also didn't like the elves in this Nietzsche's Supermen/Tolkien reprise. Back to 'immortal' -- never a D&D concept, at least since 1st ed. AD&D. Back to the 'great stature' (ditto). Worse, the art is horrible, looking like the generic overblown, triangular-top-heavy MMORPG art. Ick. (And quite unlike the cartoonish, narrow-shouldered, simpleton dwarves pictured -- an example of 'bad' from the other extreme.)
I was so incredibly optimistic about the 3.75/OGL idea -- after becoming so disillusioned with 4.0 that I canceled my Amazon pre-order for the set -- but then started reading the 3.75 document, quickly becoming so disappointed that I stopped reading that... I'll try again somewhere down the line, knowing that between 4 and 3.75 I'll have an ever-diminishing supply of new 3.5 players to meet.
I had meant to come into this project posting aplenty, loving OGL -- and all open source, having just completed an "open source biology" (BiOS)-centered thesis -- but quickly realized that this product is nothing like the D&D I knew. I will glad to see Pathfinder 3.75+ as its own game, and wish it the absolute best, but it isn't the game for me.\
(I finally decided to make this one, admittedly spleen-filled post after getting an announcement about the next 3.75 release. I apologize for the somewhat inconsiderate nature, but D&D and other gaming has meant a lot to me over the years and, freshly returning to it after an school- and life-mandated absence, I was really hoping that 3.5 OGL d20 and D&D would stay and be improved, not sundered.)
(After the elves, I ran into the implementation of cleric domain powers -- Time to stop reading! I can't even begin to discuss what all is wrong there. Gotta go to grad school and need to have a little fun first.)
Actually if anything else given their typically standoffish nature, I'd say that elves would have a -5 diplomacy to nonelves.
That's just a bad stereotype.
or perhaps a -2 to charisma might be the better racial penalty choice.
Nah. That sort of powergaming is reserved to dwarves. Plus, it would make no sense at all. If anything, they should get a bonus.
I can live with no modifier, but a pentalty is right out of the question: Their aloofness is offset by their unnatural beauty.
And I wouldn't say that all elves lack in grace and charming. I've heard of an elf queen who got a dwarf to forego his weight in gold as payment and instead go with a lock of her hair..... :)
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That's just a bad stereotype.
Actually if anything else given their typically standoffish nature, I'd say that elves would have a -5 diplomacy to nonelves.
Very when you consider the fact that atleast in the 3 LotR movies you have 4 elf characters.
1) Beautiful elven princess who's in love with a human. She expresses both gentleness but badassness when confronted in a battle.
2) The handsome elven fighter who's outwardly serious but shares his sense of humor and loyalty to his friends.
3) The beautiful elven mystic. She's seems very fey, graceful, and helpful.
4) The standoffish elder who's bitter, stern, and uncompromising.. yet has a soft side for his daughter's bad choices.
That's just a bad stereotype.
Actually if anything else given their typically standoffish nature, I'd say that elves would have a -5 diplomacy to nonelves.Very when you consider the fact that atleast in the 3 LotR movies you have 4 elf characters.
1) Beautiful elven princess who's in love with a human. She expresses both gentleness but badassness when confronted in a battle.
2) The handsome elven fighter who's outwardly serious but shares his sense of humor and loyalty to his friends.
3) The beautiful elven mystic. She's seems very fey, graceful, and helpful.
4) The standoffish elder who's bitter, stern, and uncompromising.. yet has a soft side for his daughter's bad choices.
Two of those were only half-elven - and if I recall correctly, Arwen was counted as human after she stayed behind when her father left for the west.
But still, you're absolutely right here.