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From here
The D&D 4E GSL will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in fantasy settings with the D&D 4th Edition rules, and publishers who register with WotC will be granted the right to use a version of the D&D logo that denotes the product as compatible with the D&D 4th Edition Roleplaying Game, in accordance with WotC’s terms and conditions. The effective start date for sales of D&D 4E GSL publications will be October 1, 2008.
The license associated SRD will be available on June 6, 2008, at no cost. A small group of publishers received advanced notice and will receive these documents prior to June 6, at no cost, in order to prepare for publication of compatible materials by the effective start date. If you haven’t already been contacted by WotC, you will be able to access the documents on the Wizards website beginning on June 6, 2008.
Wizards is also working on the details of a second royalty-free license, the d20 Game System License (d20 GSL). This license will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in non-fantasy settings with the 4E rules. The exact details for the d20 GSL will be released as they become available.
Not legalese-smart, but I guess it doesn't have much of an impact on Paizo's plans - I haven't seen a d20 logo in a while.
- Dave
Will Paizo be receiving one of the new GSL/SRD packets?
Chief Technical Officer
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My question is would they want one, to start saying hey, we'll start making 4E products now would feel like a kick in the teeth to a lot of people really excited about 3.P wow when acronyms attack
We're committed to the Pathfinder RPG for future Pathfinder products, but we've always said that we would consider doing some non-Pathfinder 4E products. (Assuming the GSL allows that.)
Yep—we are among the "small group of publishers" mentioned in the release.&
We're committed to the Pathfinder RPG for future Pathfinder products, but we've always said that we would consider doing some non-Pathfinder 4E products. (Assuming the GSL allows that.)
thanks you for the response Vic, most appreciated, you guys are champs.
My question is would they want one, to start saying hey, we'll start making 4E products now would feel like a kick in the teeth to a lot of people really excited about 3.P wow when acronyms attack
Actually, for myself, it doesn't feel like a kick in the teeth that Paizo may put out some 4.0 material. They are a business after all. The key thing, IMO, is how Paizo continues to support it's own system AND customer base. Which has been an excellent job so far.
I am glad that the Pathfinder RPG will continue regardless of this announcement and regardless of whether or not Paizo decides to make 4E products. :) The Pathfinder RPG is shaping up to be very interesting indeed and I would have hated to have seen it die.
Yep—we are among the "small group of publishers" mentioned in the release.&
We're committed to the Pathfinder RPG for future Pathfinder products, but we've always said that we would consider doing some non-Pathfinder 4E products. (Assuming the GSL allows that.)
Paizo
Please reconsider. I love your Pathfinder product and I love 4E. I am currently a subscriber to Pathfinder and want to keep that going. But if it does not switch to 4E as soon as possible I will regretfully (and I mean that in all sincerity, I love your work) have to cancel my subscription.
Thank you
Tom
... but we've always said that we would consider doing some non-Pathfinder 4E products. (Assuming the GSL allows that.)
Great Vic, I'm all with you on PRPG, but I'd also like to play some 4E and would sure be pleased to see some 4E support from you guys.
I hope everything works out.
Yep�we are among the "small group of publishers" mentioned in the release.&We're committed to the Pathfinder RPG for future Pathfinder products, but we've always said that we would consider doing some non-Pathfinder 4E products. (Assuming the GSL allows that.)Paizo
Please reconsider. I love your Pathfinder product and I love 4E. I am currently a subscriber to Pathfinder and want to keep that going. But if it does not switch to 4E as soon as possible I will regretfully (and I mean that in all sincerity, I love your work) have to cancel my subscription.
Thank you
Tom
I think your just out of luck. Really they cannot make the kind of a splash they made with the announcement of Pathfinder RPG and then say 'hey - just kidding folks'. They'd loose every drop of credibility they have spent so many years building up.
That said there are a number of people planning on working on 4E conversions (hopefully collaboratively) on these boards when the rules come out. Maybe you'll check out what were doing with this sort of thing after 4E hits? Might be of interest to you if you love Paizo's work but want to try out Wizards new mechanics.
Plus Vic has said, very obliquely mind you, that Paizo has plans to give the forum users significantly more powerful tools for working together collaboratively in the near future (well he said such tools where high on the to do list - I think (or hope anyway) that means relativity soon).
I'm a Pathfinder subscriber and I wish for you to continue publishing Pathfinder under the OGL. I feel pretty strongly that this version of the game needs to continue seeing 3rd party support and stay alive in the market because it is the best chance RPGs have of continuing long into the future, regardless of whether or not the business that makes the D&D brand remains healthy or not.
Otherwise, I hope that the Pathfinder RPG and 4th edition both enjoy success.
Personally, I'm in the Cake and Eat it camp. I'm very excited about the 4 E system, and at the same time Paizo produces the content I like best, with the production values and support I have learned to love. The ideal for me would be to be able to have Paizo products for my 4E game.
-j
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My question is would they want one, to start saying hey, we'll start making 4E products now would feel like a kick in the teeth to a lot of people really excited about 3.P wow when acronyms attack
Well, I guess if you're in the 3.5 vs 4E group it would.
The most important thing in my mind is that it never really was an "Usun's vs. They'm" thing. It was a "4E isn't practical at this time, and we see a market demand for 3.5, so we'll clean that up and continue to support in house." Paizo has made it clear on several occasions that they WOULD be supporting 4E through their co-work with Necromancer Games from day 1. I'm looking at this as a complete Win-Win scenario, no matter which game system you enjoy. I'm loving what Paizo is doing, so I am staying with them, whichever way they go, because I've come to trust the brand to give me the gaming love I am looking for.
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I am glad that the Pathfinder RPG will continue regardless of this announcement and regardless of whether or not Paizo decides to make 4E products. :) The Pathfinder RPG is shaping up to be very interesting indeed and I would have hated to have seen it die.
Honestly, I wouldn't have been surprised if Paizo dropped the Pathfinder RPG in light of the 4e GSL release. I think the word to better describe it would have been aghast.
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Guys, this is a blanket statement they released. It basically says that there is a GSL coming (contrary to rumors) and they've put a date on it. It says there will be a a SRD or the GSL. It says there will eventually be a non-D&D version of the game system.
HOWEVER it does not give anyone a like to the GSL. It does not give any information for the SRD.
As for my own speculation...
I have a feeling we're going to see a VERY limited SRD. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm getting the SRD for 4E is going to be very small. So small in fact that nothing in it can be used to create an alternative PHB or a different RPG using the rules. Basically, I have a feeling it's going to be designed in such a way that you could create an adventure, you could put monsters from the MM in the adventure, but you wouldn't be able to print their stats, just the name and page number. Why else would they mention a pay-to-use version of the game system without D&D? So they can profit off companies that want to make an RPG game for something else using the 4E rules, but none of the 4E content.
That aside, I love what I'm seeing in 3P and don't want them to stop now.
I was pleased to hear that there will be a GSL after all (I was starting to worry). I am glad to hear that Paizo is still open to at least creating some 4E product. I will be looking at how the Pathfinder RPG develops, but at this point I am hoping to switch to 4E unless something surprisingly bad is in the rules I have not seen yet for 4E. So once I make the switch, I will be hoping for as much great Paizo 4E products as possible.
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Yep—we are among the "small group of publishers" mentioned in the release.&We're committed to the Pathfinder RPG for future Pathfinder products, but we've always said that we would consider doing some non-Pathfinder 4E products. (Assuming the GSL allows that.)Paizo
Please reconsider. I love your Pathfinder product and I love 4E. I am currently a subscriber to Pathfinder and want to keep that going. But if it does not switch to 4E as soon as possible I will regretfully (and I mean that in all sincerity, I love your work) have to cancel my subscription.
Thank you
Tom
There is very little chance at all that Paizo will make 4E its flagship rules set at any time in the near future. The time, money, and creativity already invested in the alpha of the PRPG are, I imagine, quite considerable. Furthermore, an overwhelming majority of the Paizo customer base seem to be on board with the idea of not converting. Speaking for myself (and only myself) as long as someone somewhere continues to support 3.5 or something backwards-compatable with it (like the Pathfinder RPG) I will likely NEVER convert. It makes no sense for me to. I have an absolutely titanic library of 3.5 material (the cover value of which is well over $5,000), and have a shocking amount of it committed to memory, or, at the very least, I know where to look for things. The system is pretty robust and functions well, and two of my most significant gripes were addressed elegantly in ALPHA ONE of the PRPG. I have no interest whatsoever in starting over from scratch. Even if 4E is awesome, I doubt I'll convert any time soon. I have what I need to use the system I know for as long as I want, and a company I like and trust is going to continue to support it into the foreseeable future. Best of luck with 4E, incidentally. If you decide to come back, even just to visit, I think I can speak for most of the "not converting" crowd when I say we'll be here, with the dice ready.
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I am glad that the Pathfinder RPG will continue regardless of this announcement and regardless of whether or not Paizo decides to make 4E products. :) The Pathfinder RPG is shaping up to be very interesting indeed and I would have hated to have seen it die.Honestly, I wouldn't have been surprised if Paizo dropped the Pathfinder RPG in light of the 4e GSL release. I think the word to better describe it would have been aghast.
I'd need three words: horrified, incensed, and despondent. If they'd stuck with 4E from the get go that would have been one thing, but to tantalize me with something as amazing as the PRPG alpha 1 release and then yank it away would be incredibly cruel. Lucky for me, it looks as though they intend to do no such thing.
Edit: the flash-to-substance ratio from WotC has been alarmingly high lately. I hope for the sake of all their fans 4E turns out to be at least nominally worth it.
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Well I don't give a Rat's Behind about the 4E GSL because I am staying with what I use right Now. Paizo's New system will be closer to what I use than 4E will be. Paizo publishes Adventures that are useable for the system. WOTC has not been able to publish much of anything in the recent past few months that has been useful to me.
It will not hurt my feelings if Paizo decides to also produce a 4E line of products. Because they will be able to do both with success. There is enough room for both systems.
To me the 4E GSL represented a strongarm tactic by the Corporate Bully to keep the "Smaller" Companies to fall in line. Its not a do or die situation as most people seemed to have believed.
I would LOVE to see Paizo re-release the Pathfinder series, both runelords and throne, with a 4E conversion in PDF for subscribers. This would give us certainty that our continuing subscription will pay out long-term dividends whatever WotC does to the D&D game. This for me would guarantee my Pathfinder sub past crimson throne.
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PaizoPlease reconsider. I love your Pathfinder product and I love 4E. I am currently a subscriber to Pathfinder and want to keep that going. But if it does not switch to 4E as soon as possible I will regretfully (and I mean that in all sincerity, I love your work) have to cancel my subscription.
Thank you
Tom
You dont HAVE to cancel. That is a misuse of that word. You may CHOOSE to, but no one is making you do this.
If you love the work so much - why not stick around and enjoy it.
And we agree that it will be regretfully as I speak for myself, all of the other Paizo members and probably the staff too that we would not want to see you go either.
But it appears Paizo has laid its course and intends to ride it out - and won't be relying on 4th to be their bread and butter. Hopefully you'll be persuaded to stick with the better writing and better imaginations and not jump on the new edition bandwagon.
Robert
"The D&D 4E GSL will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in FANTASY settings..."
Does this imply other than fantasy settings may not be used with the GSL?
Meh, I see the two worlds as being seperate with rules as diverse as Palladium vs White Wolf vs 3.5... Pathfinder is a great product. Pathfinder RPG is going to be, IMO a new ruleset and will be as unique as World of Warcraft and Guild Wars are to Final Fantasy 11.
If The PTB here want to make a 4E product, I'll look into it because I will be expecting the same quality and concern as I get from their previous works. I got Dungeon Mag for tips on being a DM. As a newbie DM I need as much as I can get.
Pathfinder, for my needs, is a product that I can stand behind as a suppliment, a completely new ruleset or as a ccg for frak sake. When we get right down to it, the product is worth the sub because it teaches me.
$E (no not a typo) is going to get my attention and is going to take some of my time away from Pathfinder, but that's the same as my love affair with all things FASA and the d20 system. If it's good, I'll use it. If not, I won't pay.
Those people who are complaining about Pathfinder not being $E are looking at the wrong picture. The correct question is, will $E have me excited enough to take time out of my current routine?
So, when you stop to complain, just think of this... Paizo could have said "chuck it all, we're reimagining Star Frontiers."
... Actually that could work.
"The D&D 4E GSL will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in FANTASY settings..."
Does this imply other than fantasy settings may not be used with the GSL?
Fourth paragraph of the announcement:
"Wizards is also working on the details of a second royalty-free license, the d20 Game System License (d20 GSL). This license will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in non-fantasy settings with the 4E rules. The exact details for the d20 GSL will be released as they become available."
That's funny, I read the same thing and saw them saying that the 4E D&D GSL will govern all the books people make that have a text like was found on all d20 logo branded products:(paraphrasing) "Please refer to the 4th Edition Player's Handbook for character creation and experience". The d20 GSL is what the old OGL was, except it has a non-fantasy requirement. So someone could use the d20 GSL to make something like Mutant's & Masterminds, but not to make Arcana Evolved. They have already previously said that variant PHBs were something that would not be acceptable under the new GSL method.
Makes me kind of wonder though... Is WotC going to update D20 Modern then? Or, are they going to let that lapse along with the rest of the 3.5 books... *ponders*
They have already previously said that variant PHBs were something that would not be acceptable under the new GSL method.
I find this odd considering Necromancer has already "officially" announced plans to make an Advanced Player's Handbook....
...or would that particular product be considered a sourcebook rather than a PHB variant?
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I have a feeling we're going to see a VERY limited SRD. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm getting the SRD for 4E is going to be very small. So small in fact that nothing in it can be used to create an alternative PHB or a different RPG using the rules.
That's nothing new. Just reading up on the discussions and releases and this has been WotC's EXACT stance from the beginning.
PaizoPlease reconsider. I love your Pathfinder product and I love 4E. I am currently a subscriber to Pathfinder and want to keep that going. But if it does not switch to 4E as soon as possible I will regretfully (and I mean that in all sincerity, I love your work) have to cancel my subscription.
Thank you
Tom
Something to consider: I'm a subscriber to both the Pathfinder adventure paths and the GameMastery/Pathfinder module line -- and I don't play D&D at all, and honestly don't much intend to. I use the modules/adventures with Exalted, Burning Wheel, and other game systems I happen to like. Converting stats etc isn't that hard even there, so I'd imagine converting a Pathfinder (3.5-ish) module to 4.0 wouldn't be that huge a burden. I buy Paizo's stuff for the great adventure ideas and writing, not for the stat blocks :D
YMMV, of course, but... just a point.
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Fourth paragraph of the announcement:
"Wizards is also working on the details of a second royalty-free license, the d20 Game System License (d20 GSL). This license will allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in non-fantasy settings with the 4E rules. The exact details for the d20 GSL will be released as they become available."
This statement worries me for the future of D&D as a global hobby. If a company cannot use the d20 GSL to produce fantasy settings, unless they are willing to pay what I imagine to be high royalty costs to wizards to use the D&D 4E GSL most fantasy based settings will not make the crossover to 4E.
It sounds to me like wizards are trying to indirectly squeeze any income from publishers while maintaining global superiority over fantasy based RPGs.
After the wait, my guess is this means their legal team figured out a way to include third party publishers legally, but still have the level of control they want.
Until there is some actual info on it, my guess is most of the publishers that functioned under the OGL will be wondering exactly how restrictive it is. Given the long wait, my guess would be somewhere between shoes-tied-together and straitjacket.
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Fourth paragraph of the announcement:
This statement worries me for the future of D&D as a global hobby. If a company cannot use the d20 GSL to produce fantasy settings, unless they are willing to pay what I imagine to be high royalty costs to wizards to use the D&D 4E GSL most fantasy based settings will not make the crossover to 4E.It sounds to me like wizards are trying to indirectly squeeze any income from publishers while maintaining global superiority over fantasy based RPGs.
The 4E GSL is a "royalty-free license" that will "allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in fantasy settings with the D&D 4th Edition rules."
The d20 GSL is "a second royalty-free license" that will "allow third-party publishers to create roleplaying game products in non-fantasy settings with the 4E rules."
To me it doesn't seem like squeeze at all, since both are royalty-free, but maybe I am not reading your concerns right.
...I am currently a subscriber to Pathfinder and want to keep that going. But if it does not switch to 4E as soon as possible I will regretfully (and I mean that in all sincerity, I love your work) have to cancel my subscription....
...I'd imagine converting a Pathfinder (3.5-ish) module to 4.0 wouldn't be that huge a burden. I buy Paizo's stuff for the great adventure ideas and writing, not for the stat blocks...
Paizo recognized (and stated) long ago that Dungeon Magazine's strengths were that it (1) offered you great professionally-written adventures, and (2) did the prep work for DM's with busy lives.
With Pathfinder and the Gamemastery Modules staying with 3.5e and spinning off into the Pathfinder RPG, the first benefit will remain, but the second is gone.
Which is why, unfortunately, I will be ending my various Pathfinder subscriptions over the next few months. Gotta spend my money where I'll get the most bang for my buck.
Hopefully, Paizo will eventually offer 4e products with quality on a par with their 3e ones. When they do, they'll have little trouble winning me back as a customer.
Something to consider: I'm a subscriber to both the Pathfinder adventure paths and the GameMastery/Pathfinder module line -- and I don't play D&D at all, and honestly don't much intend to. I use the modules/adventures with Exalted, Burning Wheel, and other game systems I happen to like. Converting stats etc isn't that hard even there, so I'd imagine converting a Pathfinder (3.5-ish) module to 4.0 wouldn't be that huge a burden. I buy Paizo's stuff for the great adventure ideas and writing, not for the stat blocks :DYMMV, of course, but... just a point.
I'm right there with you. I convert all the Paizo stuff (Pathfinder, Chronicles and Modules) to Savage Worlds - and the Paizo products are so good they're well worth the effort (praise I don't give to most other publishers). And is it so happens, their stuff is mainly story (fluff), and not rules (crunch), so its pretty easy to convert it.
If a company cannot use the d20 GSL to produce fantasy settings, unless they are willing to pay what I imagine to be high royalty costs to wizards to use the D&D 4E GSL most fantasy based settings will not make the crossover to 4E.
It sounds to me like wizards are trying to indirectly squeeze any income from publishers while maintaining global superiority over fantasy based RPGs.
There's no issue here.
The D&D GSL is for fantasy, and it is royalty-free.The d20 GSL is for non-fantasy, and is still a work in progress.
Now, we don't yet know what the guidelines of the 4e GSL do and do not allow; but it will definitely not cost any money.
However, the GSL is highly unlikely to preclude a product like the Pathfinder Adventure Path or the Pathfinder Chronicles sourcebooks. If it will preclude anything, it will likely preclude standalone RPG products like Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, True 20, or a 4e version of the Pathfinder RPG - on the premise that those dilute and divide the D&D market, rather than unifying it.
I would LOVE to see Paizo re-release the Pathfinder series, both runelords and throne, with a 4E conversion in PDF for subscribers. This would give us certainty that our continuing subscription will pay out long-term dividends whatever WotC does to the D&D game. This for me would guarantee my Pathfinder sub past crimson throne.
Not possible. Wizards actually said on ENWorld that they are not allowing the same produt with a 4E conversion. Sorry but I don't have the time dig up the link. Its on the OGL section. author: lurkinglidda.
I've really got nothing to say except:
The effective start date for sales of D&D 4E GSL publications will be October 1, 2008.
Which means, if you are a company planning on hitching your wagon to 4e, WOTC has effectively told you to skip this year's Gen Con. That's a pretty big deal, and its something that everyone that is upset with Paizo for not switching to 4e should remember.
This is all just more marketing crap, Im surprised they didnt announce this sooner. They are probably tired of the flak about the GSL already.
It looks to me that WotC wants 6 months or so (give or take) of exclusivity without 3rd party publishers in the 4E market. If they can break one or two 3rd party publishers all the better for them later when the gates open, because most folks know that most 3rd party publishers put out way better products (like Necro, Paizo, Green Ronin, Goodman, etc).
The after effects of this marketing ploy looks to be simple....
We all know that the first few months of 4E will be successfull because its a new set of Core books (which everyone needs to run 4E) and a few more months of "shiny" new stuff. Ill bet WotC is banking on the fact that the short term buzz will have 3rd party publishers desperate to get in on the action ASAP no matter how restrictive the GSL might be.
I really hope Paizo sticks to their guns with Pathfinder. There isnt the slightest doubt in my mind that the Paizo designers will craft a better game with Pathfinder. It may not sell as well as D&D in the short term because of the "name", but word of mouth, buzz, experience, etc can fix this in the long run.
Im no market analyst, but these are my feelings as a consumer. Ill vote with my wallet thank you.
I've really got nothing to say except: The effective start date for sales of D&D 4E GSL publications will be October 1, 2008. Which means, if you are a company planning on hitching your wagon to 4e, WOTC has effectively told you to skip this year's Gen Con. That's a pretty big deal, and its something that everyone that is upset with Paizo for not switching to 4e should remember.
I'm not upset with Paizo for not converting to 4e. I understand why they are doing what they're doing. Also, if Paizo gains more customers than it loses with its commitment to the Pathfinder RPG, then I am happy for them.
I just want Paizo to produce products that I am interested in buying. If not, then they will lose my business. That's all I'm saying.
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I respect Paizo's decision to keep the door open on making products for 4E, even though I am quite pleased with 3.P.
Expanding their work to other systems or products (and a wider audience) has apparently not hurt them yet!
As for the 4E GSL; still no details, just a future release date. No meat here worth sinking into yet.
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I would LOVE to see Paizo re-release the Pathfinder series, both runelords and throne, with a 4E conversion in PDF for subscribers. This would give us certainty that our continuing subscription will pay out long-term dividends whatever WotC does to the D&D game. This for me would guarantee my Pathfinder sub past crimson throne.
They are not allowed to.
The terms of the GSL are such that it and the OGL are mutually exclusive. Over at ENWorld Linae confirmed for me that this means you can't produce the sme rproduct in two different versions if one of those versions is under the GSL.
Of course, things could still change ....
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I would LOVE to see Paizo re-release the Pathfinder series, both runelords and throne, with a 4E conversion in PDF for subscribers. This would give us certainty that our continuing subscription will pay out long-term dividends whatever WotC does to the D&D game. This for me would guarantee my Pathfinder sub past crimson throne.Not possible. Wizards actually said on ENWorld that they are not allowing the same produt with a 4E conversion. Sorry but I don't have the time dig up the link. Its on the OGL section. author: lurkinglidda.
Or, what he said!
I would LOVE to see Paizo re-release the Pathfinder series, both runelords and throne, with a 4E conversion in PDF for subscribers. This would give us certainty that our continuing subscription will pay out long-term dividends whatever WotC does to the D&D game. This for me would guarantee my Pathfinder sub past crimson throne.Not possible. Wizards actually said on ENWorld that they are not allowing the same produt with a 4E conversion. Sorry but I don't have the time dig up the link. Its on the OGL section. author: lurkinglidda.
You cannot publish a product under BOTH the OGL and the GSL. However, it may be possible to update an old OGL product to 4e under the GSL.
Publishers can update titles done under the OGL to the GSL as long as they are compliant with the new license.
We'll have to see what that all entails. But yes, dual-statting the same product appears to be precluded.
Or...
What amethal said.
