A 20th-level fighter should be able to go 300 on an army's collective backside.
Heard of the Book of nine Swords? Yeah that.
That sort of "Beowulf: The Animated Movie" fighter wouldn't go over well at all with the people I usually game with (we often prefer deadlier combat that runs quicker, so that players are careful about fighting unless they've already rigged an advantage for themselves). But if your campaign focuses more on big fights and less on strategy, I see no reason not to go for it!
I posted one a while back where Fighters had talents available instead of feats, but no responses.
I tried a variant that could buy access to a d20 Modern hero talent tree by using one of their bonus feats ("Dedicated Warrior," etc.); they could then get a talent at 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. Pathfinder seems to have already bumped the fighter's odd levels, though, so I'm not sure they need that. Maybe provide it as an either/or option.
Great Post!
I never thought about it in the terms of "clerics are owed favors by their Gods" and "wizards can alter reality". Put it that way, just about every other class needs a bit of a boost.
A question, though, how does any character get an ability score in the high 20s without magic at 18th level? I don't get that one. That's only 4 ability score bonuses off levels, and, theoretically, he shouldn't start with a Str greater than 18 unless he's a half-orc.
But, yeah, a fighter should be able to do amazing things at 18th to 20th level. He should definitely be able to take on a whole army of lesser combatants using Cleave and Great cleave.
How about making the Supreme Cleave (may take total moves equal to a full normal move while cleaving) power (Dervish PrC?) available to fighers?
A feat called Feat of Strength that gives you a +1 per 2 levels when making strength checks.
Shoot, there are some pretty cool feats in PHBII. Increase the DR progression in the Pathfinder PHB, make the armor and weapon use bonuses slightly better, and I think you have it.
High level Fighters should be masters of many different fighting techniques. They should be able to read they're enemies moves and counter them. They aught to be highly resistant to harmful effects of all types, and able to unleash harmful effects on they're enemies, not limited to damage. He aught to be able to fend off the Tarrasque and similar enemies.
Good grief, no Tome of Battle crap. It's one thing being able to route an entire army; it's another thing to be able to shoot fire blasts and turn invisibile because the fighter's just so awesome with his sword (or somesuch crap). Not only is that stupid, but ToB is needlessly complex and an Exalted-wannabe. Make the fighter hit hard and be hard to hit...but don't make it possible for him to leap 70' into the air, ride around on a pillar of fire, and create a small nuclear explosion in the shape of Tiamat.
Tome of Battle-esque mechanics are one of the reasons that I'm NOT buying 4e.
Of course the Fighter analogue in Tome of Battle - the Warblade, can do none of those things. Supernatural abilities are the province of the Swordmage. But yeah ToB mechanics should likely be avoided for the Pathfinder Fighter.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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High level fighters should definitely have a class feature like Mettle, being able to shake off effects that allow Will saves for Partial or half. In almost every Heroic story about a Warrior their grim determination and skill at arms are what set them apart from other lesser warriors...
Warriors of legend are always outsmarting their foes (Odysseus), just overpowering them (Hercules, Conan), or being able to outfight them (Achilles). High Level Fighters in D&D shold be able to the same.
Well maybe not leap 70 feet into the air, but 20 feet should be doable.
That might be something that has to be worked out with jump, though: Jumping 20 feet up has a DC of 80 (and that's a running jump)
I've never read the Tomb of Battle, so I'm not sure about anything in there. But I do believe that fighters do need fixing.
It introduces 3 melee classes (the fighter-like warblade, the monklike swardsage and the paladinlike crusader) and "manoeuvres" for them, which are basically spells for fighters. It's quite wuxia-flavoured (including the manoeuvre names), and basically a preview of the 4e fighter (though the 3.5e ToB classes are probably a lot less restrictive than anything 4e, since no manoeuvre forces you to use a certain type of weapon or anything.
Warblades use manoeuvres that mainly deal with pure fighting prowess, and maybe some commanding stuff. You'll see stuff like making one attack against each enemy (with +2 per attack, and all that's a standard action) or rolling concentration as damage, or stuff dealing with multiple attacks, or stuff granting allies a bonus on damage while charging. They also get Int to a lot of different stuff, like attacks in a sneak attack situation, attacks of opportunity, and so on.
Crusaders have alignment-based stuff and healing stuff - some chaotic/evil/lawful/good stuff, some smiting, some "hit him and heal you" and a damage buffer that delays damage (and gives you combat bonuses while it's not empty)
Swordsage get the mystical/magical stuff, like a lot of fire-based stuff (ring of fire's neat - you run around the enemy in a circle, and then all within that circle bursts into flames) and shadow/sneaky stuff (they make good ninjas). They also get wis on AC, and often on damage.
I kinda like those classes, but I like them as they are: Not that restrictive, and optional. They can't replace the fighter.
Fighters need to stay simple. No 20 different spells-in-disguise.
I'd say that the Alpha fighter with his extra attack and AC bonuses is quite good. I wouldn't mind something like mettle or other similar simple things, but beyond feats, it should mostly be stuff that is just always active, so you won't have to remember using it (it's all calculated into the numbers on your sheet)
One of the things I think that fighters should also get is the ability of "toughness" - where they can use their Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save (if better). It may not eliminate the damage from the fireball, but it makes it a lot easier to take half damage. You hit them with something that is normally dodged and they just shrug it off.
I believe something like that exists somewhere.
I'd personally prefer if the saves stay where they are. And with the truckload of feats they get now (more than one per level!), they can "blow" some feats into the save boosters.
A question, though, how does any character get an ability score in the high 20s without magic at 18th level? I don't get that one. That's only 4 ability score bonuses off levels, and, theoretically, he shouldn't start with a Str greater than 18 unless he's a half-orc.
Well, you start with an 18, add 2 from your human (they get a free +2 now) and then +5 from the level-based updates (4,8,12,16,20).
Beyond that, you will need magic, though. You can boost it by another 11 with that (+6 enhancement, +5 inherent), maybe even beyond (+2 size to strength from enlarge person)
Since magic is quite common, I'd say that a fighter will have Str 28 at level 20 without too much of a problem (Start with 15, +2 human, +5 levels, +6 enhancement), and if you add the expensive inherent bonus stuff, you'll go beyond 30 without breaking a sweat.
Of course the Fighter analogue in Tome of Battle - the Warblade, can do none of those things. Supernatural abilities are the province of the Swordmage. But yeah ToB mechanics should likely be avoided for the Pathfinder Fighter.
Indeed, and I was exaggerating, but I do not like ToB one bit. The way that Pathfinder is doing things (with combat feats) is far, far superior, and I heart Paizo for it.
I kinda like those classes, but I like them as they are: Not that restrictive, and optional. They can't replace the fighter.
Fighters need to stay simple. No 20 different spells-in-disguise.
KaeYoss is pretty much on target for a basic decription of the Tome of Battle classes. I agree with him with that I wouldn't want to use the maneuvers for the Fighter. I would like to not push into their territory, I like them, but I don't want to force those abilities on all the other melee classes.
That said, I would like fighters to get something other than at will abilities. At will or constant on are nice, but I think it would be interesting to have something that can only be used a few times per day or once every few rounds so they can seem to be able to push themselves harder for a couple rounds out of each of the battles.
My idea in the spoilers in case someone is interested.
Here are some of the other ideas of what you could expend this on.
1. Add fighter level to the damage of a single attack.
2. Add fighter level to a bull rush attempt.
3. Expend a swift action to get an extra move action.
4. Deal ability score damage.
5. Use an extra Combat feat this round.
Then there is the method you could "catch your breath."
1. Psionic focus-like. You can't "catch your breath" until you take an action to do so.
2. Breath weapon-like. Roll 1d4, that is how long you have until you catch your breath.
3. Daily use. You can only push yourself a few times each day.
4. Encounter use. You can only push yourself a few times each battle. After you have a minute to catch your breath you can push yourself more during the next battle.
5. Recover on die roll. Several different implementations. The basic idea is when you roll on a certain range on a die you catch your breath. Maybe you catch your breath when you roll 15 or better on an attack roll.
I expect high level fighters to be able to hit oppenents very hard and be able to stand at the front line blocking most attacks through armor or a shield. I would like a 20th level fighter with merely a club to be able to do more than a 5th level fighter with a club than just be able to do three more attacks (At least more than five extra damage on each attack).
High level casters can travel the planes, bind demons, make temporary & opulent dimensions, fill the battlefield with acidic fog soo thick it can cushion falls, and so much more. Invisibility, mind control, and bolts of energy are acolyte abilities even.
All this, and you want an equal level fighter to roam the plains, rope rhinos, make opulent meals, fill the battlefield with orc blood soo thick you might need a balance check in some spots, and not much else?
As I've seen some describe, it sounds like you don't think fighters should have nice things.
And don't think just slapping some numbers will somehow make things better, because that still fulfills the mundane life you want them to lead. No amount of bonus damage with an arrow can stop wind wall, no amount of sword accuracy can hit invisibility or incorporeality more than 50% of the time, and that's just the basic stuff.
At the very least, if you want them to be mundane in fighting style, give them abilities that bring others down to their level so they CAN fight them.
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A 20th level Fighter is supposed to contribute equally to a party where the Wizard can stop time and the Cleric is personally chastising rival gods. The Rogue does this by handing out literally hundreds of damage a turn and assassinating dragons before they are able to even react. A Fighter needs a schtick and an ecological niche to occupy. Right now they just sit there absorbing and inflicting a moderate amount of damage, which is just kind of pathetic considering that the literal armies of Angels that a Cleric brings to the table at this point can each do that as well.
Possible concepts:
- Suppress Other Super Powers.
High level combat is crazy dangerous, and involves people on both sides throwing around effects like wail of the banshee which are quite capable of killing off dozens of characters in an instant. If a Fighter was able to counter that kind of stuff, either by exuding an antimagic field or simply being able to automatically attack interrupt enemy actions, that would give him a lease on life despite the fact that he doesn't bring the kind of offense to the table as does a high level Rogue (insta-gib virtually any enemy) or a Wizard (save-or-die the entire enemy back rank). - Dynasty Warriors on your Backside.
Sure a Wizard can clear out entire cities with cloud kill or fire cloud, and a Cleric can do that too with stuff like storm of vengeance or firestorm. But what if you wanted to do that several times a day? Or a body count in the hundreds from a single action was simply insufficient for your needs? Depending upon campaign style, there is a potential niche for characters Gilgameshing out and killing thousands or even tens of thousands. And while such attacks may never be of particular utility against Dragons (the Rogue's forte) or squads of Mind Flayers (the Wizard's target of choice in any case), in the case that there was an army of 3 thousand hobgoblins come to make trouble I could see that being the Fighter's bag if he was properly defined. - Never Give Up, Never Surrender.
High level combat is stupid lethal. If you literally got extra lives, and also had some way to get enemies to target you or at least stay in one place, you could potentially play a grind game against enemies of your level. Heck, many foes (especially Wizards) are only able to kill everything they can see a certain number of times a day. If you could guaranty soaking that, you could pull your weight if you could somehow assure that such enemies would waste time and charges failing to kill you.
But yeah, high level is a brutal brutal place. Because the game is so battle-centric you actually can contribute to the game without being able to open up portals to other universes, summon demon armies, transmute stones into powerful djinn, control time and fate, or any of the other crazy crap that spellcasters do on a regular basis from about 7th level on. But you have to be conceived of in such a way that you seriously can contribute to a battle where the default assumption is that the party Rogue to going to open up on the first round of combat and do over 250 damage to a single enemy, the Wizard is going to open up and instantly kill a random assortment of 12 opponents, the Cleric can bring people back to life from a pile of dust in the middle of combat, and things are still deadly and scary enough that this might not be enough from you to win.
-Frank
P.S. I converted a 20th level dwarf over recently and he had over 600 hit points (more defense than offense)Skester
How did you do that, even dwarf fighters only get 1d10+1+Con hp per level and even the new toughness only adds like 23hp
I don't want ToB stuff, just because of the theme of it (I don't want Wuxia in my game UNLESS I'm running Oriental Adventures).
What I do want is if the Wizard alters reality and the Cleric has gods doing him favor, when they meet the fighter on the battlefield, he kills them.
I want the fighter to be the undisputed taker of lives. If the Wizard/Cleric throws demons and creatures at him, I want to see the fighter mow them down, motioning what he's gonna do to the caster next. If the wizard/cleric tries to blast the fighter with spells, I want to see the fighter sucks it up and survive it, or manage to sidestep, in both cases moving in to make the wizard's life miserable. If the wizard/cleric tries to push him off with spells, the fighter just keeps coming at him. If the wizard/cleric tries to Tenser Transformation/Divine Power to match the fighter, the fighter just laughs and cuts him down.
And he can do it in a loincloth with a borrowed sword.
Rogues don'to do that much more damage than fighters, and rogue damage is pretty conditional to boot. A fighter hits more consistently and his damage is more consistent, too.
How did you do that, even dwarf fighters only get 1d10+1+Con hp per level and even the new toughness only adds like 23hp
P.S. I converted a 20th level dwarf over recently and he had over 600 hit points (more defense than offense)Skester
Now that I think about it, 600+ hp does sound like a lot. That's over 30 hp per level. Even with full barbarian HD, that's an extra 18 per level. Let's say you can get 3 or 4p per level with feats (the new toughness as well as those other big toughness feats that give lots of HP). That still means you'll need a con in the high thirties (38 is +14). With 20 start plus 5 levels plus 5 inherent plus 6 item, I only get as high as 36. And that's the extreme approach where everything is blown on con instead of str and other scores. And it would still mean you need to get 4 hp per level from feats and full HP for every HD.
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I have always been of the opinion that high-level threats come in two forms: things that only a caster can really handle and things that are so magic resistant that a caster would be nearly useless against it. In this way, the party as a whole is always needed to take on the high-level challenges. If the fighter is not particularly effective damage-wise, he can protect the wizard/cleric while they assault the thing (or hamper the creature's abilities via buffs placed on him to do that) and if the creature is resistant to magic, then the fighter can do the heavy work with support from the casters in the form of battlefield control and offensive buffs. Suggestions that the fighter be turned into a “one man can do it all wrecking machine” are missing the cooperative point of high level play.
Also, I am not certain how one summons armies of celestials or does any of these other ultra-wacky things high-level casters are said to be capable of. Perhaps there is a way of manipulating the rules as they are to create such a situation, but I for one would never allow any form or combination of pre-epic magic to equate to the capabilities of epic magic. As an example, I give you a few samples of epic spells of the SRD (linked here but not quoted to save text):
Epic Dragon Strike
Epic Mass Frog
Epic Contingent Resurrection
Epic Dragon Knight
The point of these links is to show what epic magic is capable of. I use these spells as a guideline to “watch over” more mundane magical loopholes to ensure that non-epic casters cannot manipulate the non-epic spell list to achieve these results without tremendous difficulty. Yes, I am sure that the RAW purists hate me for it, but I for one don't need a 750-page spell guide to handle every possible interaction with each spell. I also make sure that the spirit of the wish spell is maintained in that it is ”the mightiest spell that a wizard can cast” and thus no spell effect will exceed the rather modest limits of the the spirit of the wish spell and furthermore that no clever combination of spells using rule corners and omissions violates the spirit of the wish spell. Thus wishing for more wishes, items that have wishes, summoning creatures that grant wishes, compelling creatures (eg solars, deific avatars, greater demons and others) with very close ties to the gods into service and the like simply fail, usually with spectacular results.
And lastly, I have a final method, if all other reasoning fails, of dealing with the “uber-caster” issue making fighters irrelevant. I simply ask the party if they feel that such tactics are really possible using the spells/technique they propose. I remind them that if such a thing is possible, then certainly their foes are capable of doing it. If that is the kind of world they want to live in, I am fine with it if they are. They have faced this response with me on two other occasions (scry/teleport and find the path/wind walk) and in both cases they have created house rules on how to handle these situations.
Yes fighters need a boost and I think the proposed alpha rules are headed in the right direction but fighters do not need to be capable of things that casters aren't capable of in a well managed game.
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Good grief, no Tome of Battle crap. It's one thing being able to route an entire army; it's another thing to be able to shoot fire blasts and turn invisibile because the fighter's just so awesome with his sword (or somesuch crap). Not only is that stupid, but ToB is needlessly complex and an Exalted-wannabe. Make the fighter hit hard and be hard to hit...but don't make it possible for him to leap 70' into the air, ride around on a pillar of fire, and create a small nuclear explosion in the shape of Tiamat.
Tome of Battle-esque mechanics are one of the reasons that I'm NOT buying 4e.
I agree with 100%
ToB is one of the only books I completely disallow in my games, and I own a tremendous amount of 3rd party material.
I don't want ToB stuff, just because of the theme of it (I don't want Wuxia in my game UNLESS I'm running Oriental Adventures).
What I do want is if the Wizard alters reality and the Cleric has gods doing him favor, when they meet the fighter on the battlefield, he kills them.
I want the fighter to be the undisputed taker of lives. <snip>
And he can do it in a loincloth with a borrowed sword.
YES!!!
To clarify what I said in my previous post I do want the fighter to have some way to have at least a greater chance to overcome magic attacks and defenses.
I don't want ToB stuff, just because of the theme of it (I don't want Wuxia in my game UNLESS I'm running Oriental Adventures).
What I do want is if the Wizard alters reality and the Cleric has gods doing him favor, when they meet the fighter on the battlefield, he kills them.
I want the fighter to be the undisputed taker of lives. If the Wizard/Cleric throws demons and creatures at him, I want to see the fighter mow them down, motioning what he's gonna do to the caster next. If the wizard/cleric tries to blast the fighter with spells, I want to see the fighter sucks it up and survive it, or manage to sidestep, in both cases moving in to make the wizard's life miserable. If the wizard/cleric tries to push him off with spells, the fighter just keeps coming at him. If the wizard/cleric tries to Tenser Transformation/Divine Power to match the fighter, the fighter just laughs and cuts him down.
And he can do it in a loincloth with a borrowed sword.
Better ask Paizo to give the fighter an extra 20 HP/level, immunity to mind-affecting spells, bonus damage on attacks, evasion, mettle, damage reduction, spell resistance, a bonus to saves, and the ability to self-rez.
Good grief, no Tome of Battle crap. It's one thing being able to route an entire army; it's another thing to be able to shoot fire blasts and turn invisibile because the fighter's just so awesome with his sword (or somesuch crap). Not only is that stupid, but ToB is needlessly complex and an Exalted-wannabe. Make the fighter hit hard and be hard to hit...but don't make it possible for him to leap 70' into the air, ride around on a pillar of fire, and create a small nuclear explosion in the shape of Tiamat.
Tome of Battle-esque mechanics are one of the reasons that I'm NOT buying 4e.
Did you even read the book? And needlessly complicated? What, do you have the IQ of a wombat or something? Give me one example of anything complicated about it.
EDIT
And on the flavor b##*~&~#, do what you should do when you don't like the flavor change it.
Good grief, no Tome of Battle crap. It's one thing being able to route an entire army; it's another thing to be able to shoot fire blasts and turn invisibile because the fighter's just so awesome with his sword (or somesuch crap). Not only is that stupid, but ToB is needlessly complex and an Exalted-wannabe. Make the fighter hit hard and be hard to hit...but don't make it possible for him to leap 70' into the air, ride around on a pillar of fire, and create a small nuclear explosion in the shape of Tiamat.
Tome of Battle-esque mechanics are one of the reasons that I'm NOT buying 4e.
Did you even read the book? And needlessly complicated? What, do you have the IQ of a wombat or something? Give me one example of anything complicated about it.
EDIT
And on the flavor b~#&#!@~, do what you should do when you don't like the flavor change it.
Ohhh, looks like I hit a 4etard's nerve. Go back to the Concerns and Criticisms forum with the rest of the 4e pep squad, kthx.
If single-classed fighters can throw fireballs and fly, then classes are an outmoded concept and we should all be playing GURPS d20. Some excellent ideas not requiring pseudo-spells or magic powers were mentioned above, though: Frank's automatic interruption of enemy actions by premptive attack is a GREAT concept. Taking Virgil's post a step further, a level of stratigic awareness that allows a higher-level fighter to position himself so that a wind wall doesn't interfere with his shots... there are strong possibilities here.
Removal of the Paizo class armor and shield features (maybe making them feats instead) in exchange for all good saves (like a monk's) would go a long way towards making them able to ignore all kinds of attacks as they rush in for the kill.
If single-classed fighters can throw fireballs and fly, then classes are an outmoded concept and we should all be playing GURPS d20.
Other than two disciplines (Shadow Hand and Desert Wind) none of the other can do stuff like that.
Perhaps fighters should be nigh indestructible? Frank's point about people throwing around spells like Wail of the Banshee is a good one. Perhaps fighters need to just sort of develop immunities to random acts of death.
Like, immunity to level drain
immunity to ability draining
immunity to save vs. die effects.
In my mind, if the lich casts "wail of the banshee" and everyone in the party dies, the lone fighter should be the one remaining, brandishing his sword against the lich with a sly grin on his face.
Other than two disciplines (Shadow Hand and Desert Wind) none of the other can do stuff like that.
I wasn't necessarily discussing BoNS in particular, but more the whole "wizards can travel the planes and fighters can only ride horses" thing. If the fighter can ride up like a maniac, and before you can react make his horse clip you in the head so that your gate implodes, then in my book he's just as good as a wizard... only with pure physical combat, instead of spells.
Ohhh, looks like I hit a 4etard's nerve. Go back to the Concerns and Criticisms forum with the rest of the 4e pep squad, kthx.
Stop. That is way over the line. These forums do not need these sort of comments.
Ohhh, looks like I hit a 4etard's nerve. Go back to the Concerns and Criticisms forum with the rest of the 4e pep squad, kthx.Stop. That is way over the line. These forums do not need these sort of comments.
I really should just learn to ignore him.
Kirth Gersen-Yeah my bad.
A high level fighter is capable of fending off moderate CR threats completely naked and unarmed. With an aresenal of magical mojo appropriate to his level he can storm a city state alone and uncork the ass whuppin of a lifetime all over their army.
If you have a high level fighter, with appropriate equipment, AND high level buffs put on him from his magically adept allies, you have a warrior menacing enough to make Thor drop an epic level deuce in his high and mighty tighty whiteys.
If you want to juice up fighters, make sure to take into account what happens to a fighter mark II when his buddies give him an epic level supercharge.
Mind Blank, polymorph, improved invisiblity, spell resistance, ect
This picture personifies what I think a 20th level fighter is
A malproportioned cartoon character?
BTW, I'm kidding. Sorry, couldn't help it. No offense intended.
This picture personifies what I think a 20th level fighter is
I miss that show.
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A high level fighter is capable of fending off moderate CR threats completely naked and unarmed. With an aresenal of magical mojo appropriate to his level he can storm a city state alone and uncork the ass whuppin of a lifetime all over their army.
If you have a high level fighter, with appropriate equipment, AND high level buffs put on him from his magically adept allies, you have a warrior menacing enough to make Thor drop an epic level deuce in his high and mighty tighty whiteys.
If you want to juice up fighters, make sure to take into account what happens to a fighter mark II when his buddies give him an epic level supercharge.
Mind Blank, polymorph, improved invisiblity, spell resistance, ect
Yes, yes exactly. What we need to consider is the fighter as a member of an operating whole, something that is greater than the sum of its parts. Somewhere along the line, I think people have forgotten that all classes are pretty much "support classes". Sometimes a fighter carries the haft of the proverbial spear, at other times he is the tip. Both are worthy roles. It seems that some people want to make sure every class shines all the time. Now where have I heard that before...
Stop. That is way over the line. These forums do not need these sort of comments.
No, they don't. However, spread your chastisement equally among the guilty parties.
"What, do you have the IQ of a wombat or something?"
Other than two disciplines (Shadow Hand and Desert Wind) none of the other can do stuff like that.
The Crusader's healing strikes seem a bit odd to me, too:
Wizard: Ouch! I twisted my ankle.
Crusader: Never fear -- I'll punch this squirrel in the face. That should make you feel better!
Just kidding, of course. :) But I agree that "pseudo-spells for fighters" isn't my preferred solution.
No, they don't. However, spread your chastisement equally among the guilty parties.
Stop. That is way over the line. These forums do not need these sort of comments.
I am not spreading it equally because the comments were not equal. Where he might have stepped over the line by insulting your intelligence, you made a running jump over that line by calling him a 4etard and telling him to leave.
Edit: Also, looking at just your first post I would have also questioned if you ever even looked at the Tome of Battle rather than just hear someone else rant about it.
I think that the high level fighter should be the best at physical combat.
They should get the most attacks with weapons. More out of Combat Expertise and Power Attack than other classes. Greater benefit from armor. They should be better at trips, disarms, and bull rushes. Give them options for blinding, crippling, and impeding their enemy. No one should have more options in physical combat than the fighter.
One of the things I miss about 2nd Edition is that when you saw an enemy making several attacks per round with a sword or bow you knew he was a fighter. Why? Because at first level the fighter had more attacks due to specialization than everyone else (except the Ranger who was fixed at 2). Lets bring that idea back. Lets make the fighter the best at fighting with weapons.
Give fighters the option for weapon specialization (that actually means more than just a point or two bonus and doesn't cost two feats), armor specialization and shield specialization. Allow fighters to get more out of Combat Expertise and Power Attack (maybe they get to add their Fighter levels to their AC or Damage when using them). Give fighters options for impeding or hampering their foes (a strike to the face that blinds them, a strike to the legs that slows the enemy, a strike that temporarily weakens the enemy, a strike that causes bleeding damage, etc.) that make battle field control a possibility for them. Whether they are class abilities or feats more options is what fighters need.
I see a 20th level fighter as the guy that can cripple a dragon's ability to fly by knowing what part of the shoulder to shoot with an arrow to impede the dragons wing. Someone who still gets the bonus from his shield even when it is strapped to his back (like Achilles from the movie Troy). Someone who snatches a spear out of the air and throws it back at the enemy. Someone who knows where to stab you so that you will bleed a lot.
I don't think the abilities need to be particularly outrageous in nature but giving them little things like small amounts of DR (because he/she is just that tough) or the ability to keep fighting even when at 0 or negative htpts (because they have lived through worse) would go a long way to making the fighter a little more competitive.
Other than two disciplines (Shadow Hand and Desert Wind) none of the other can do stuff like that.The Crusader's healing strikes seem a bit odd to me, too:
Wizard: Ouch! I twisted my ankle.
Crusader: Never fear -- I'll punch this squirrel in the face. That should make you feel better!Just kidding, of course. :) But I agree that "pseudo-spells for fighters" isn't my preferred solution.
I all ways saw those type of moves as either you do something that motivates your allies to keep going despite wounds (Probably would have been better if they were temp. HP though).
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Fighter's should be able to outfight any other class even with their various buffs up. They should be the best at dishing out damage, soaking up damage, and killing large numbers of mooks up close and personal. They should be "the" experts at all forms of combat, (except maybe unarmed, which should be the monk's area of expertise). Weapons, armor, and shiled should be more effective in the hands of the fighter. The fighter should be the one left standing after the dragon's breath weapon washes over the party. They should be able to accomplish spectacular, though non-supernatural combat stunts.
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Give fighters the option for weapon specialization (that actually means more than just a point or two bonus and doesn't cost two feats), armor specialization and shield specialization. Allow fighters to get more out of Combat Expertise and Power Attack (maybe they get to add their Fighter levels to their AC or Damage when using them). Give fighters options for impeding or hampering their foes (a strike to the face that blinds them, a strike to the legs that slows the enemy, a strike that temporarily weakens the enemy, a strike that causes bleeding damage, etc.) that make battle field control a possibility for them. Whether they are class abilities or feats more options is what fighters need.
I see a 20th level fighter as the guy that can cripple a dragon's ability to fly by knowing what part of the shoulder to shoot with an arrow to impede the dragons wing. Someone who still gets the bonus from his shield even when it is strapped to his back (like Achilles from the movie Troy). Someone who snatches a spear out of the air and throws it back at the enemy. Someone who knows where to stab you so that you will bleed a lot.
All of this sounds great to me.
1) Fighters should be able to apply all sorts of Conditions with weapon strikes, from lamed conditions (similar to caltop wounds) to staggering blows that deny someone their Dex bonus to AC (setting them up for allies, or for a followup attack) to causing bleeding wounds or sickening / nauseating them briefly or dazzling / blinding them briefly by opening up a bleeding wound over their eyes, etc.
In the case of really effective Conditions, like Stunned, Blinded or Nauseated, only a well-executed hit can cause them and they might only last a couple of rounds (perhaps Fort save / round to downgrade the condition to Dazed, Dazzled or Sickened, for instance).
2) A Fighter should be flat out better with both weapons and armor (and shields). A flat +1 competence bonus to AC with armor / shield (or even a +1 for Lt armor, +2 for Med armor and +3 for Hvy armor!) would help ensure that a Cleric in Full-Plate is *not* going to get the same benefits as a Fighter in Full-Plate. Weapon damage (or even unarmed damage) could be +1 / odd Fighter level (+1 at 1st, +2 at 3rd, etc.) also as a Competence bonus.
3) And, ideally, these bonuses should be swappable. A Fighter should get the equivalent of Combat Expertise and Power Attack *free.* Any Fighter should know how to choke up on his swing, or go all-out, or fight defensively more effectively than that Cleric who is limited to the Fighting Defensively option if he wants to sacrifice Atk for AC, or the Charge Action if he wants to sacrifice AC for Atk.
By giving the Fighter automatic bonuses to AC (based on armor worn / shield used) and weapon damage, the Fighter can then trade off these numbers, just as he's trading off BAB for extra damage with Power Attack, or BAB for AC with Combat Expertise.
Combat Expertise, Power Attack, etc. would still exist as feats, for non-Fighters to take. That Wizard who specializes in area of effect spells and auto-hit spells (like force magic) is still going to benefit by picking up Combat Expertise at some point, since he doesn't have to use his BAB offensively.
4) Other abilities that will help the Fighter remain competitive at higher levels, such as Mettle, should become available to Fighters as well (perhaps as a Feat?), so that higher level spellcasters aren't an automatic 'win' against him.
By 20th level, a Fighter in Fullplate with a Hvy Shield and a Longsword could have an AC 15 just from the armor and his 'armor / sheild competence bonuses' (not counting anything from magical armor, other items, dodge feat, Dex, if applicable, etc.) and be doing 1d8+10 before counting in Str bonuses, magic weapon bonuses, specialization bonuses, etc. He'll be able to swap out that +5 competence bonus to AC he's getting from armor / shield optimization to perform a Reckless or All-Out Attack, adding to Atk. He'll be able to cut down some of that +10 damage bonus (or perhaps even *all of it*) to perform a Precise or Accurate Attack, adding again to Atk, for when he needs to hit that AC 50 critter the DM just threw at the party.
Even then, the +10 damage at 20th level is bupkiss compared to the 90 hp (empowered maximized) fireball that the 20th level Wizard just busted out.
5) To help keep those swings in the impressive ranges, I'd like for a Fighter to have the option to give up his Iterative attacks in a round to instead just add dice to his main attack. He could take five swings at that AC 50 critter, but that would be stupid, since four of them will miss anyway. Instead he gives up the extra four attacks and just adds four of the appropriate dice to his single Focused Attack. 5d8+10 (before any other bonuses) sounds a bit better!
6) Perhaps new Feats could even work kinda like Metamagic, but for Fighters. It's all or nothing, and if he doesn't kill this mob, the party is done for, so he takes an All-Out Attack to 'maximize' his sword damage, but drops to Exhausted afterwards (Fort save to only be Fatigued). He doesn't have an action yet, or has already taken his swing for the turn and he *has* to get another attack? He Sudden Strikes and takes an attack as an Immediate Action, and again, drops to Exhausted. These sorts of Feats, allowing a Fighter to do something heroic and exciting (and kinda impossible, otherwise) at the cost of dropping to Exhausted and pretty much making them an all-or-nothing last-ditch deal, could also help to add some of the advantages of Metamagic to the Fighter class. With a Herculean feat of strength, he risks it all to end this fight! The same sort of Feat could serve as a 'poor man's Mettle,' and allow the Fighter an additional save to prevent some onerous Condition from taking hold, at the cost of Exhausting himself. Conan's about to be petrified? Gimme another save, I'll take the Exhausted penalties and *still* hack down that darn Medusa!
No, they don't. However, spread your chastisement equally among the guilty parties.
Stop. That is way over the line. These forums do not need these sort of comments.I am not spreading it equally because the comments were not equal. Where he might have stepped over the line by insulting your intelligence, you made a running jump over that line by calling him a 4etard and telling him to leave.
Edit: Also, looking at just your first post I would have also questioned if you ever even looked at the Tome of Battle rather than just hear someone else rant about it.
Then spare me your lecturing. Yes, I have read Tome of Battle. One ought not to confuse "needlessly complex" with "too complex for one to understand."
I did not come hear to argue about the merits and flaws of ToB, but your friend appears to have tried to take me to ask on such. Unless, of course, this thread is the "defend ToB from criticism" thread.
Two handed weapons with power attack can deal truely horrendous damage
so can Spirited charge (if you want a fighter to be as baddass as the mage nothing screams, "I rock rarder than Rod Stewart" like a dragon for a mount")
cleaving after either attack spreads the misery to other opponents and I've seen a few good roles from a fighter clear out plenty of challenging opponents the party was struggling to bring down.
Two weapon fighting with sword and shield or with two weapons does moderate damage but also adds enough attacks for multiple attempts at disarming, tripping ect. A well thought out weapon selection (wounding weapons for example) increase the deadlyness of multiple hits regardless off low damage output.
Combat expertise lets a fighter dodge and weave away from creatures with truely horrendous attack modifiers if they are wounded or don't have the tools to be effective, absorbing hits, conserving party resources, and buying time.
The only limit a fighter has on these tricks is the number of enemies foolish enough to remain in his path.
These are all from the PHB. A core rules, unsupplimented fighter has access to these feats and many more. A high level fighter has access to all of them at once.
I think perhaps your fighter's great failing at this point was rocking harder than Rod Stewart.
Come on... Rod Stewart? Freakin' bard.....
Two handed weapons with power attack can deal truely horrendous damage
so can Spirited charge (if you want a fighter to be as baddass as the mage nothing screams, "I rock rarder than Rod Stewart" like a dragon for a mount")
cleaving after either attack spreads the misery to other opponents and I've seen a few good roles from a fighter clear out plenty of challenging opponents the party was struggling to bring down.
Two weapon fighting with sword and shield or with two weapons does moderate damage but also adds enough attacks for multiple attempts at disarming, tripping ect. A well thought out weapon selection (wounding weapons for example) increase the deadlyness of multiple hits regardless off low damage output.
Combat expertise lets a fighter dodge and weave away from creatures with truely horrendous attack modifiers if they are wounded or don't have the tools to be effective, absorbing hits, conserving party resources, and buying time.
The only limit a fighter has on these tricks is the number of enemies foolish enough to remain in his path.
These are all from the PHB. A core rules, unsupplimented fighter has access to these feats and many more. A high level fighter has access to all of them at once.