Now there are certain things I love about the Monk even though he has to sit in the back of the bus with the bard on the way to school, while the wizard and rogue pass him up in their new car bought by mommy and daddy...pointing and laughing at their misfortune.
First thing I love about the monk is how blatantly annoying it is as an enemy combatant. You don't know annoying until you are faced with a band of enemy monks at 12th level... all with fantastic saving throws, improved evasion, an extra 30 feet of movement, a maxed out escape artist skill, extra resistance to enchantments, and the ability to deflect arrows all while running around like crazed chickens tripping and stunning my players...just when you think you have it cornered this time it dimension doors and heals itself. At high enough level, it won't even die when you kick it of a mountain.
I get a weird amusement from this type of encounter every time I run it.
But alas, the encounter is short lived because playing a monk isn't quite as much fun as the encounter is, and the encounter is at best a way to drain some resources out of my players after they have collected too much garbage and insist on trying to take a magical wagon up the mountainside or thru the chest-deep swampruins.
One of the biggest problems with the monk is that it's best offensive ability relies on exactly what it shouldn't do...stand in one place and attack.
I think the solution to this is pretty easy...make the flurry of blows ability a /day ability with ample uses like the barbarians rage and let it be used as a standard action.
Is there any compatibility problems with this I don't see?
You could make flurry into a bonus feat similar to Rapid Shot and Manyshot. Heck, even add in the variant from PHB2, Decisive Strike. The monk chooses which one he wants at level 1. The pro/cons would be as follows.
Doublestrike, standard action, one extra attack at -2 to both rolls. Obviously, a pro is being able to move. A con is never getting extra out of it due to base attack or two weapon fighting.
Flurry, full attack action. Pro: benefits from base attack and two weapon fighting. Con: limited movement.
Decisive Strike: Pro: double damage assists in overwhelming DR. Con: limited movement, slightly more of an "all eggs in one basket" compared to flurry.
I think this would work fine. Times per day is a fuzzy mechanic at best.
Not a bad idea.
Also, I would suggest to make the AC bonus higher, but defense isn't exactly the biggest problem with the monk.
I would almost consider adding a defensive ability to the "striking style" choice. Its true that defense isn't a monk's weakness, but it isn't exactly their strength either. Perhaps something like:
Doublestrike: mobility and/or spring attack, usable with the standard action doublestrike as an exception to the normal rules for spring attack?
Decisive Strike, perhaps Iron Stance: when you decisive strike, you gain DR/- until the beggining of your next turn. Could be barbarian DR tier, or maybe better because its conditional, perhaps 1 per 2 monk levels.
Flurry: Deflecting flurry, you gain an AC bonus when you flurry. Could be equal to (and acquired at the time) the reduction of attack roll penalties on flurry.
Hmm, the more I type, the more I like.
Running through some level 5 playtests with a 32 point buy Half Orc Monk using Pathfinder rules I found that the Monk was consistently overpowered by monsters of his level. I found the class to be weak in AC, damage output, attack chance. It was pretty bad.
A total overhaul is in order. Full BAB, real combat options, the works. As is he fights like an Aristocrat in a chain shirt.
-Frank
Another idea is to let the monk use his flurry of blows as a standard action any time his opponent loses his dex bonus.
Monks so heavily rely on their mobility, having their best attack be a full round action just seems backwards.
Another hope of mine is that the "stance" feats become abilities the monk gets automatically.
|
Running through some level 5 playtests with a 32 point buy Half Orc Monk using Pathfinder rules I found that the Monk was consistently overpowered by monsters of his level. I found the class to be weak in AC, damage output, attack chance. It was pretty bad.
A total overhaul is in order. Full BAB, real combat options, the works. As is he fights like an Aristocrat in a chain shirt.
-Frank
I gotta agree with the full BAB especially. They need it. I have never played a monk because of that. I watch them in my games but they are always a dip-class, taken for a couple decent abilities for a couple levels, or as a prereq for a PRC. Hopefully that would change with a full BAB. I would try one then.
Well, BaB can change some things with compatibility I think...especially in the range of BaB requirements for PrC's and it gives the monk better attacks with all weapons and to-hit spells if he multiclasses. This also gives more attacks at higher levels and I don't think the monk really needs 6 with 3 being at max bonus and a full BaB.
I would rather see a progressive bonus like the fighter has but for unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
In fact it could be very similar to the fighter scaling. You could have a +2 AC bonus for fighting with no armor and then have +5 thru unarmored mastery with a feat at 19th or 20th that adds some unique ability, adding 3 more to the AC of the monk, and also front-loading it so it's more useful at lower levels (or perhaps start it at second so it's not cherrypicked) Also you could have unarmed combat do the same, leaving the BaB but essentially giving him a much better attack.
You could add 3 more bonus feats at various levels for Mobility-scorpion attack, Wind stance-Gorgons fist, and Lightning stance-Medusa's Wrath.
This might make the page a bit cumbersome but would change very few essentials of the Monk but that along with the ability to hit flurry of blows when an enemy is denied their Dex as a standard action make them what they are currently not...effective.
Monks are a redheaded stepchild. They have almost unmatched multiple ability dependency, they chew up feats to specialize in anything, and that 3/4 BAB hurts a lot. (There's a reason Flurry of Blows has been summarized as "miss twice as often".)
This is true.
The monk is also probably the easiest to fix however. The monk has the potential for greatness but never performs.
The monk Aces the SAT and then drops out of college first semester...He is the best player on the team, yet gets injured in pre-season. This is the essence of the monk.
|
I agree that Monks should have the *OPTION* to be more mobile fighters, but I think Monks should have a lot of extra options, sort of the way rogues have been given rogue abilities.
They already had a few choices by way of a loose feat selection, but I'd like to see more, and not just for Asian martial artists: Grapplers, wrestlers, boxers/pugilists, etc. All interesting options.
This is true.
The monk is also probably the easiest to fix however.
How so? The concept is a character who fights kind of like a Ranger only without equipment.
If he can fight without equipment as well as the Ranger can fight with equipment, the Monk is overpowered because he doesn't need the equipment.
But if the Ranger outperforms the Monk when he has equipment, then the Monk is underpowered because the basic game assumptions are that players will actually have equipment appropriate for their level.
It's Catch 22. Unless the Monk does something radically different from the one in the PHB I don't think it even can be balanced.
-Frank
|
|
This is true.
The monk is also probably the easiest to fix however.
How so? The concept is a character who fights kind of like a Ranger only without equipment.
If he can fight without equipment as well as the Ranger can fight with equipment, the Monk is overpowered because he doesn't need the equipment.
But if the Ranger outperforms the Monk when he has equipment, then the Monk is underpowered because the basic game assumptions are that players will actually have equipment appropriate for their level.
It's Catch 22. Unless the Monk does something radically different from the one in the PHB I don't think it even can be balanced.
-Frank
We just need the monk to perform at the ranger's level while spending the same amount of money. So, say the monk begins by dealing 1d6 points of damage with their unarmed strikes, and then at 3rd level they start being able to enchant their unarmed strikes by performing rituals and making sacrifices that are equivalent in gp cost to standard enchantment. (This is basically taking the route of the OA samurai, now that I think about it.) Similarly, they should be able to enhance their innate Wisdom "armor" with similar sacrifices and rituals. The small number of cases where the ranger would actually lack their equipment and thus be at a significant disadvantage, relative to the monk, are sufficiently rare that I would consider them negligible for balance purposes.
Well, if the monk can keep his mobility and still be viable, I think that he becomes more useful. If they are usable via /per day as a standard action, or when somebody loses their dex bonus then they are taking advantage of things the rogue can do or share a mechanic with the barbarian. The monk cannot outshine these classes in what they do even with the added ability...given some overlap.
Also, if he advances only thru unarmed striking like the fighter does in the new model, then taking and using other weapons isn't a help for him, but is still a huge help for the ranger. This is why the monk shouldn't get BaB but the ranger should. I would say there can be enough difference and ability between them that they don't share the exact same function.
I also don't see the monk being able to focus on ranged domination the same way. Moving fast is one thing, but the monk will still have to stay somewhat engaged to attack, even with the increased movement.
Contributor
|
I agree that the monk needs an overhaul. Jason already knows I want to bend his ear when he gets ready to start working on monks, because it's my favorite class and I just want it to be better. Whatever we come up with, though, needs to be able to easily replicate what the standard PH monk does, for the sake of backwards compatibility.
I think it's a sizable challenge, but Jason is certainly up to the task and I'd like to think that whatever contributions I toss out to him are more beneficial than not.
That said, I know I'll be paying attention to this thread and I'll make sure Jason becomes aware of it as well. :D
Good to know somebody is looking out for the monk.
I think a progressive unarmed attack bonus, two or three more feat choices(between some of the new feats), the ability to unleash flurry of blows occasionally as a standard action(one way or the other), and a slightly higher AC with the bonus front-loaded at lower levels would do wonders for the Monk...and the progression for both what you have done to the fighter and what the monk currently is seems to jive with what you are doing in a common sense way.
I'm excited to see what you guys come up with either way.
|
|
Define consistently, and what monsters did you use? How did you build the Monk?Running through some level 5 playtests with a 32 point buy Half Orc Monk using Pathfinder rules I found that the Monk was consistently overpowered by monsters of his level. I found the class to be weak in AC, damage output, attack chance. It was pretty bad.
A total overhaul is in order. Full BAB, real combat options, the works. As is he fights like an Aristocrat in a chain shirt.
-Frank
Look here and prepare to weep.
Hello Folks,
I love the Monk to!It is my favorite class.I would like to see more support for the Monk in futureproducts (feats,prestigeclasses).Wizards of the coast wasn´t that supportive as I see it.In every Completebook there was only one prestigeclass for Monks.Feat were also not many.
The downsides of the Monk were in my opinion:
the class:
- not enough damage output (only with Improved natural attack and Belt of
Monks)
- AC to low in Levels 1-6
- hp output low
- very weak compared to Barbarian & Fighter in terms of Damage
- not enough attack maneuvers or options
- Flurry ob Blow if not very effective
As in general:
- not enough special designed Magic Items for Monks
- the class was always a bit unpopular.Don´t know why though.I LOVE it
Cheers Julien.
P.S. Does anybody know when the class will actually be published?
One change that should be made is to increase the monk's skills. 6 + Int mod would make it more like the 1st Ed AD&D incarnation and most other concepts.
Also, increase the options for specific types of monks, like the Fighting Styles in the SRD, perhaps even with different "monk weapons" for each style. More "martial arts" feats to build on Stunning Fist, etc. would be a good idea, too.
|
|
I see wrestling more monk than a fighter doing such. Monks main problems stems from the lack of options in magic items. He has to compete with the wizard for the same magic items for defense. He also lacks the damage output of a fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger because of the lack of Magic Items for his attacks. Low HP and AC are not a problem for a Monk because he will make up for it with magic items eventually, much like a fighter. Otherwise, the monk has plenty of options to be a great combatant. He can Trip, Disarm, and Grapple like no one else in the game. I think that matches his flavor more than him just strait up attacking. Grapple the monster, then pummel it on your turn. Win/Win for the monk.
Also, I would really love to point out how NON-ASIAN Monks can so easily exist if you want them to. I certainly don't mind the Asian thing, but if I make monks I go with it less than half the time.
First off...lets to back earlier than the Mountain Monks of China & Tibet to the very first martial artists and one of the first stories.
Namely: PANKRATION And THESEUS And HERAKLES
Many people believe that Pankration was the first form of martial arts and that every form of martial art was formed from it (also at the same time was something similar to boxing and wrestling...Pankration was the combination of the two). Some guess it resembles Mixed Martial arts of today but it certainly has fantasy around it, seeing the mythology surrounding it was that it was invented by two Half-gods. Also note the feats and weapons in the articles... Heracles and the Club...Theseus and the staff (taken from "the clubber"). The staff is already a monk weapon and you could certainly add or switch the club for one.
You could be so devoted to the art of martial combat that the gods of war decided to bless you with physical abilities beyond that of normal men...or maybe you simply have a touch of god-blood in you from a similar line like Theseus and Heracles.
By the way, many people believe that Alexanders push into Asia is what brought the martial arts to Asia to begin with.
You could change the Monk to resemble "the Jaguar" from Apocolypto, and make him viable with primitive weapons instead of Asian ones. You could be an Irish Priest of Franciscan Monk trained (respectively) in Boxing and collar & Elbow or Savate, and blessed by god due to their commitment and strength of faith. Native American, African, Russian, or hell any place and time all have these kind of fantastic stories... all you really need is a commitment to an ideal or driving force because EVERY place has it's own styles of Martial Arts taken from others.
I hope those who love the monk find this interesting if they didn't already know it.
Wrestling is very much a Martial Art and should be apart of the class just as much as any other fighting style.Having wrestled in high school, I totally agree. :)
Me too...having wrestled in college, practiced jiujitsu for over 7 years, and having fought MMA; anybody who claims wrestling or grappling isn't a martial art should have to grapple a guy like Matt Lindland, BJ Penn, or (gulp) Alexander Karelin.
Then decide if the art is martial enough.
This most difficult part of playing a monk imho is the need for three maxed abilities: Wis (defense) Dex (defense) Str (offense). Many would argue that Con needs to be maxed as well for a front line fighter who is not wearing armor. At best two maxed abilities and two near maxed. Other classes need only one, though two is ideal (who does not need to max hp? :). So I think rather than looking at the feats, look at the abilities. Just off the top of my head:
A monk can add wis to BAB instead of (in addition to?) str.
A monk can add wis to damage instead of (in addition to?) str.
Adding both would likely be too unbalanced, but there is a precedence. Wis already adds to the AC of a monk. Also, I forget how the swashbuckler works, but it lets int be included in BAB or damage (or both?).
This makes wis the prime abilities and lets the PC decide what should be second (offense, defense, hp) like they need to for a fighter, priest, wiz etc. You get to decide if you want to hit more often etc. I have some thoughts for limiting it (x/day, 1/2 level, chart like the bonus AC) if straigt bonus is too much, but I will see how badly this thought gets burned first. O:)
Dammit... my post got eated... oh well.
Random thought.
It fits thematically for a monk to be able roll with the blow from a punch or weapon in order to lessen the damage he would otherwise take.
A monk power along the lines of the rogue's defensive roll ability (but gained at lower levels) would best capture this. That, or giving the monk straight up DR vs non-touch melee attacks that they retain their Dex bonus against would also work.
|
|
It fits thematically for a monk to be able roll with the blow from a punch or weapon in order to lessen the damage he would otherwise take.
A monk power along the lines of the rogue's defensive roll ability (but gained at lower levels) would best capture this. That, or giving the monk straight up DR vs non-touch attacks that they retain their Dex bonus against would also work.
An option for the Monk to be able to 'fight evasively' and use the Evasion rules for missle and eventually even melee attacks against himself would be neat. Instead of attacking people, he moves foward batting their missiles out of the air and blocking their initial sword and spear attacks until he closes to deliver the beatdown.
Nobody cares what I think, but my vote is to remove the Monk. It has no place in the game, and should never have been brought back into 3rd edition.
|
|
It fits thematically for a monk to be able roll with the blow from a punch or weapon in order to lessen the damage he would otherwise take.
A monk power along the lines of the rogue's defensive roll ability (but gained at lower levels) would best capture this. That, or giving the monk straight up DR vs non-touch attacks that they retain their Dex bonus against would also work.
Post got eated. Or maybe it will show up twice. WhutEVA!
This is a neat idea, sort of like 'Evasion' for melee.
It might be neat to have a 'fighting evasively' option for Monks (and perhaps aquirable through feats or Alternate Class Features for other lightly armored combatants) that allows an Evasion class to go Total Defense and be treated as having Evasion against missle attacks, and, at higher levels, perhaps when they would get Improved Evasion, being counted as having Evasion even against melee attacks while Total Defending. A Monk with this ability could come under fire by hobgoblin bandits and go Total Defense as he closes with their archers, nimbly evading their arrows, and even their blades when he closes, until he feels ready to cancel Total Defense (perhaps when his allies catch up, those slowpokes!) and start unleashing the smackdown!
And in other thoughts, this game could use some sort of Parry or Block mechanic.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say "wrestling isn't a martial art". I said "wrestling is not very monkish". How many fictional monks can you name who are well known for their wrestling skills?
Isn't grapple basically grabbing somebody and immobilizing him. Instead of wrestling, think of all those martial artists that tie people up into knots by twiasting arms, tripping, etc...
Nobody cares what I think, but my vote is to remove the Monk. It has no place in the game, and should never have been brought back into 3rd edition.
I really hope not, but I know a bunch of people feel that way.
This basically seems to do with the fact the monk has a specifically Asian flavor about them and most of the settings are not Asian-based settings, breaking the feel of the game.
That being said, there are more than enough examples of people who can do similar things in mythology and fokelore in almost every area of the world (the two I posted above being prime examples).
What I would like to see is a more flavor-versatile monk so it fits in settings better. The fantasy ideals of mystical power, extraordinary unarmed combat ability, and fantastic athletic prowess certainly aren't exclusive only to Asian fokelore and myth. In fact I think you will find them more staples of greek mythology if anything.
Nobody cares what I think, but my vote is to remove the Monk. It has no place in the game, and should never have been brought back into 3rd edition.
I really hope not, but I know a bunch of people feel that way.
This basically seems to do with the fact the monk has a specifically Asian flavor about them and most of the settings are not Asian-based settings, breaking the feel of the game.
That being said, there are more than enough examples of people who can do similar things in mythology and fokelore in almost every area of the world (the two I posted above being prime examples).
What I would like to see is a more flavor-versatile monk so it fits in settings better. The fantasy ideals of mystical power, extraordinary unarmed combat ability, and fantastic athletic prowess certainly aren't exclusive only to Asian fokelore and myth. In fact I think you will find them more staples of greek mythology if anything.
|
I'm pretty sure I didn't say "wrestling isn't a martial art". I said "wrestling is not very monkish". How many fictional monks can you name who are well known for their wrestling skills?
Well, Friar Tuck was pretty good at wrestling, actually.
But I think the disconnect we're seeing here is the name of the class, and the names of its abilities. All of them are very Asian themed, which is cool and all, but makes people think of Shaolin instead of Benedictine. I had this discussion with the Dwarven Monk in my Pathfinder game, and we both decided that if we ignored the names, and looked at the abilities themselves, the class was a very good fit for his concept.
Ultimately, the Monk is an Unarmed Fighter - be it wrestling, boxing, kung-fu, or street fighting.
Nobody cares what I think, but my vote is to remove the Monk. It has no place in the game, and should never have been brought back into 3rd edition.
I really hope not, but I know a bunch of people feel that way.
This basically seems to do with the fact the monk has a specifically Asian flavor about them and most of the settings are not Asian-based settings, breaking the feel of the game.
That being said, there are more than enough examples of people who can do similar things in mythology and fokelore in almost every area of the world (the two I posted above being prime examples).
What I would like to see is a more flavor-versatile monk so it fits in settings better. The fantasy ideals of mystical power, extraordinary unarmed combat ability, and fantastic athletic prowess certainly aren't exclusive only to Asian fokelore and myth. In fact I think you will find them more staples of greek mythology if anything.
I think monks are great AND plenty powerful in 3.5. They're like special teams. Sneak in, move to the key target, immobilize and eliminate. If you fail you've got a bazillion ways to escape and resist any form of capture and no one's gonna catch you if you make a break for it. Super specialized and nearly unstoppable in decisive strike or chasedown operations.
I think monks are one of the most fun classes to play they are my favorite.
The problem is that D&D doesn't need special teams, the party is supposed to work together and pool their strengths into a whole to overcome obstacles. The flaw I have with the monk is that there is nothing they can offer the party that another class can't do better.
Their coolest abilities and strengths are their resistances (great for them but it isn't something that directly benefits teamates), speed (does no good in most encounters since leaving party members 100ft behind you in a single round will just get one of the two groups killed), and number of attacks (are cool and I'd argue that they are useful in combat but with few monk specific items or feats the damage potential stays dissapointingly low).
Ki strike (lawful) is just difficult to get excited about.
What the monk needs most is a single defining ability that the party can come to rely on. Something that a monkless party can routinely lament and say "Oh how I wish we had a monk right now"
I'm not sure giving the monk more defensive abilities is the answer. The problem is that they are supposed to be part of a team. They are great at avoiding being disabled, but that only indirectly aids the party.
Monks are already all about deflecting attacks and resisting magical assaults. Perhaps we can upgrade "deflecting" (an ability that only helps themselves survive) to "reflecting". Let a monks resistance to magical attacks turn a hold person spell back on the caster. Use those magical hands of theirs smack a beholder with its own ray of disintegration. It still seems to fit their style and it's a unique ability no other class brings to the table.
What do you think?
I agree with those who said the monk is underpowered. It is. Here are the problems as I see it.
1) MAD as hell and not going to take it anymore. The monk requires good Str, Dex, Wis and Con to be effective.
2) Stand still and take it. A monk gets bonus speed, but it's flurry of blows requires it to take full actions.
3) Good saves -- bad BAB. This is why a monk is great for grappling casters... and nothing else.
4) All dressed up and nowhere to go. What do you spend your money on? A monk's belt. And then what? Not much.
All these issues need to be fixed. Most importantly, we need to figure out what the monk is supposed to be. I agree with those who want to separate the monk from his oriental roots. He's an unarmed fighter who concentrates on his own physical health to power amazing effects.
In my opinion, he should require Con and Wis and that's it. Str and Dex are helpful but not crucial. Int and Cha just get in the way.
Proposals:
1) Full BAB and Good saves.
2) Wis bonus to AC out of the gate.
3) Con bonus to hit and damage from unarmed attacks, including grapple rolls
4) Bonus ability points on 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th levels.
5) A full complement of new magic items that monks will want and need to spend their cash upon. Slippers, sashes, belts, robes, headbands.
I play D&D with a lot of martial artists, and we've all taken stabs at coming up with different "styles" for the monk. I think that a grapple-happy monk is a great idea that I'm working with in my homebrew.
I play D&D with alot of martial artists, and we've all taken stabs at different "styles" for the monk. I think a grapple-happy monk is a great idea, one that I'm working on for my homebrew and preparing to playtest in an upcoming campaign.