Hello all,
I just wanted to share my opinions on the current version of Pathfinder.
Mostly I'm going to focus on the classes for now.
Cleric: My complaint regarding the cleric comes in the form of the Domain powers. Your giving a class (witch is in my op one of the strongest classes out there) what amounts to 14 powers. This seems kinda excessive to me. Perhaps if it were scaled back to the player choosing what domain powers they want when they are praying for their spells. This should hepl keep the number of granted powers to something more reasonable.
Fighter: I love the new fighter, no complaints as of yet.
Rouge: I like the changes to sneak attack. However, I think the Master strike ability, is too much. it either needs to be removed, the base dc lowered, or altered in some other way.
Wizard: At first I wasn't happy with the School powers, ie I think there are too many of them. I favor the Unearthed Arcana rules regarding specialist wizards. However, after reading further I realized the Bonded Item class ability balances this out. I think it would be best if the bonded Item ability became a separate class ability.
That said, I think Limited wish, and wish powers from the universal school, is far too powerful. They need to be changed to something else, but what I'm not sure.
Well that's it for now.
I don't know about you, but in my experience NO ONE wants to play a cleric. They're crappy combatants compared to a lot of other classes, they almost never get to cast any of the spells they prepared (instead using them for healing), and generally have little variation in terms of role-playability. Anything that makes them a better option is fine by me.
I don't know about you, but in my experience NO ONE wants to play a cleric. They're crappy combatants compared to a lot of other classes, they almost never get to cast any of the spells they prepared (instead using them for healing), and generally have little variation in terms of role-playability. Anything that makes them a better option is fine by me.
Yeah that my group 2 they like the changes
clerics and druids always got good play in my group (now those who played clerics healed spartanly and buffed themselves constantly. making them barely tolable) Druid got much more of the play (spells, companion, good skills, AND special abilities) that being said...
The Cleric: OMG get rid of their wizard thieving, at will ray powers! WTF, why would a first level cleric be as good of a blaster as a first level wizard, totally screws the Wizard. Removing their bonus domain spells and giving them special stuff to fill the long boring, next to dead levels, is a nice add on actually ( I cant stand getting just more spells leveling up, just as i cant stand getting just feats leveling up)
The Rogue: probably my favorite fix in all of Alpha. makes me want to play alot of them, the 1d8 and early special abilities shapes this to be a very exiting class
The Fighter: Very solid, the 1.1 weapon bonuses are awesome. its still a little bit dry, and i fear that the paladin and Barbarian might get beefed more than then (nothing was every weak about the barbarian, maybe its first level was to good as a stand alone, extra rage was to easy to acquire. The paladin was a bit weak past 5th level, the minor spell was not enough to keep my interest, ive kinda got off subject...)
The Wizard: all is well, some of the first level at-will abilities need touching (conjuration need to drop the acid ray and gain a cool version of augment summons, Evocation needs to power up its energy ray and let the evokers damage bonus be factored in, Illusion need to drop its boring first level illusion buff and add the Trickery domains "Copy cat " ability)
if these adjustment were made I would be ecstatic
wait... I just noticed you said cleric were sucky combatants...um...not the games ive played in. Clerics could kick anyone in the teeth save the Druid and Barbarian. maybe if you actually cared about turning, but I havent seen many clerics with above a 13 charisma, and most have physical statistics that were THE SAME as our parties fighter. wisdom came second to strength about every time, and the clerics enter combat with so many buffs that they dished out significantly more damage than the tank. had about as many hitpoints as the tank, and could drop heals (on themselves) like mad. the worst solo bad guy to fight in 3.5 was high level clerics.
now this style of play is just as unhealthy as being a healbot, either the cleric is being used by the party as a bandaid or they are conserving all their spells for buffs and personal glory, its a sorry affair.
I find it interesting that the person who started this thread believes clerics are undepowered while on other threads people are fussing about CoDzilla... the cleric is what you play him as,,,I personally reserve a majority of my spells for healing unless there is a secondary healer and use buffs ocassionally but get to cast a fair amount of other spells... do I fight as well as the party fighter (nope) but since he usually takes first dibs on the best weapons i get first dibs on the best armors... that being said, I do not dish it out like the fighter but with my heavy armor and hy shield I soak up a lot of attacks and help keep the baddies off the arcanist by being in the front rank. Also helps our Scout since he is a missile specialist. The fact that I am not uber-offense doesn't make me feel like i'm not contributing in combat and my party usually puts one share as a party fund (after we save enough money for a resurection we tend to buy a cure wand to supplement my healing)so I don't feel that I am just regulated to healing bot either.
I find it interesting that the person who started this thread believes clerics are undepowered while on other threads people are fussing about CoDzilla... the cleric is what you play him as,,,I personally reserve a majority of my spells for healing unless there is a secondary healer and use buffs ocassionally but get to cast a fair amount of other spells... do I fight as well as the party fighter (nope) but since he usually takes first dibs on the best weapons i get first dibs on the best armors... that being said, I do not dish it out like the fighter but with my heavy armor and hy shield I soak up a lot of attacks and help keep the baddies off the arcanist by being in the front rank. Also helps our Scout since he is a missile specialist. The fact that I am not uber-offense doesn't make me feel like i'm not contributing in combat and my party usually puts one share as a party fund (after we save enough money for a resurection we tend to buy a cure wand to supplement my healing)so I don't feel that I am just regulated to healing bot either.
I never said Clerics were underpowered (actually I think it's just the opisite). I felt the free use of two domain granted powers was too much of an imbalance. Were you perhaps referring to The_Shifter?
I don't know about you, but in my experience NO ONE wants to play a cleric. They're crappy combatants compared to a lot of other classes, they almost never get to cast any of the spells they prepared (instead using them for healing), and generally have little variation in terms of role-playability. Anything that makes them a better option is fine by me.
Okay Shifter here's why I think clerics are over powered.
1. They have the advantage of using powerful spells, while wearing armor.2. Good hp (d8's)
3. The advantage of the second best attack chart.
4. Decent weapon selection.
5. They can where any kind of armor.
Weeknesses.
...
Yeah, if you can think of one then let me know.
I don't know about you, but in my experience NO ONE wants to play a cleric. They're crappy combatants compared to a lot of other classes
Wow. Haven't heard that one. My experience is that they're never that bad, and later on, they totally rule. As soon as stuff like Divine Power comes around, they start to get quite strong. Add to that quicken spell (especially in rod form), and things get nasty real quick. 12-foot engines of destruction.
, they almost never get to cast any of the spells they prepared (instead using them for healing)
The trick is to cast them quickly, before people get hurt ;-)
Healing's an issue, but having played more than a few clerics, I can say that this is only a problem at lower levels.
and generally have little variation in terms of role-playability.
Huh? I'd say they're one of the more varied lots out there. Every god has his own agenda, so if you have 10 gods, you have 10 backgrounds - at least. Every god has several aspects, and you can embrace some stronger, and all that.
I don't know about you, but in my experience NO ONE wants to play a cleric. They're crappy combatants compared to a lot of other classes, they almost never get to cast any of the spells they prepared (instead using them for healing), and generally have little variation in terms of role-playability. Anything that makes them a better option is fine by me.
*ahem*
This has been said by others but I must put my 2cp worth in or cut my hands off. And I need both hands sometimes...
The cleric is awesome. Even at low level they can get buffs like Divine Favour, Entropic Shield, Magic Weapon, Shield of Faith (1st level), Aid, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance (2nd level) that would more than keep up with a fighter. And at high level they can boost to almost godlike levels. And this doesn't have to come at the cost of healing - just take Leadership and make your cohort the party healer. Only kidding, what you should do is invest in healing items, or make sure you get a high wisdom for bonus spells and use your buffs wisely. Also an option is the group buffs (Elation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Mass Conviction etc) which make you hard and help others out too. It's all good.
And as far as role-playing goes, they come with a inbuilt hook. I have played several clerics of the same faith and each one was completely different due to not just his faith but the aspect of that faith the character took, and of course I gave them a personality... well, I try to - it's hard when you're trying to remember exactly what stacks with what.
A cleric has the potential to be the most vibrant part of the group and can make every other character question their actions based on the approval or otherwise of the resident healer. You just have to make it real. And remember all the bonuses of course. And take 2 levels of paladin for the Divine Grace if you can (your Reflex save will be dump otherwise, and clerics don't get Cat's Grace - but they do get Shield of Warding, which is very helpful in that respect - go check it out).
All this and I haven't even mentioned Divine Feats...
I never said Clerics were underpowered (actually I think it's just the opisite). I felt the free use of two domain granted powers was too much of an imbalance. Were you perhaps referring to The_Shifter?
Sorry... i misspoke [have hillary clinton mask on right now... my comments are a response to The_Shifter and not you...
Having said that...
To reiterate what I've posted elsewhere... I really do believe clerical spells ought to be grouped by domains with some universal just as arcanist spells are grouped into school... I think that your choice of domains should limit your choice of spells....
And lastly, Paizo should think about putting out a Deities and Priest Book which include a Priest class specifically tailored to each Deity so as an option a DM can drop the more generic Cleric, and spell lists tailored to each Deity. You can even go further and have different options/spell lists based on the aspect of the Deity favored by that priest.
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To reiterate what I've posted elsewhere... I really do believe clerical spells ought to be grouped by domains with some universal just as arcanist spells are grouped into school... I think that your choice of domains should limit your choice of spells....
And lastly, Paizo should think about putting out a Deities and Priest Book which include a Priest class specifically tailored to each Deity so as an option a DM can drop the more generic Cleric, and spell lists tailored to each Deity. You can even go further and have different options/spell lists based on the aspect of the Deity favored by that priest.
That would be old-school; 2nd Edition priestly spheres, in fact.
Or, to go back even further, Imagine Magazine (RIP) issue 20 (1984?).
Every deity having a totally customised list, even to the extent of shuffling spells up or down a level, energy substitution (Lightning Strike for Thor, etc), and co-opting themed spells from other lists.
You'd need to allow for some overlap between the domains. Some spells would be more widespread, without being totally universal, but other than that, it could work.
<finishes chalking magic circle of Cheesebeard Summoning...>
Huzzah! He came!
I saw a Matt Devney-shaped hole in the thread. You didn't need to take the piss though did you?
Matt
I guess I must really have a bias against clerics. In any case, I still like what they've done with them. They aren't quite as boring looking as they used to be.