This is one of things about the d20 system that I have never understood. Why is the DC for a spell save based on spell level and not caster level? A 15th level wizard should be able to cast a more effective 1st level spell than a 3rd level wizard.
If PRPG used caster level as the basis for spell DC, higher level spellcasters would still have a use for their low-level spells.
Would this type of rule make high-level spellcasters too powerful?
This is one of things about the d20 system that I have never understood. Why is the DC for a spell save based on spell level and not caster level? A 15th level wizard should be able to cast a more effective 1st level spell than a 3rd level wizard.
If PRPG used caster level as the basis for spell DC, higher level spellcasters would still have a use for their low-level spells.
Would this type of rule make high-level spellcasters too powerful?
I think it's a great idea. It's already what monsters do for the DCs for their abilities. I see no reason not to use it for spell casters too.
Are you thinking 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier?
Since you would round down, the save DC would actually be one lower at the first level you get a new spell. That is, using SRD rules a 5th level wizard with an Int of 16 has a save DC of 16 on his fireball. Using the rules above, the save DC would be 15 until he reached 6th level.
I kind of like that as a piece of flavor (i.e., you're still getting use to casting a new power level of spell).
But, yes, I've long thought it should be tied to caster level, and I have no problem with a 20th-level wizard's fireball being harder to save against than that of a 6th level wizard.
Let me comment on this one we tried this house rule once and had to drop it by about 8th level the DCs on spells were becoming very powerful lets look at 8th level
The wizard had spell casting prodigy so +2 on int and he had two level boosts on int and started with a 18 int so now his stat mod is plus 6 to the save and he was an 8th level caster now the base DC for his spells were 24 at 8th level
Spell casters are powerful enough they dont need the boost
Let me comment on this one we tried this house rule once and had to drop it by about 8th level the DCs on spells were becoming very powerful lets look at 8th level
The wizard had spell casting prodigy so +2 on int and he had two level boosts on int and started with a 18 int so now his stat mod is plus 6 to the save and he was an 8th level caster now the base DC for his spells were 24 at 8th level.
Spell casters are powerful enough they dont need the boost
It would be a DC of 20 if you used 1/2 caster level, which is more in line with how other creatures determine their save DCs. The 1/2 caster level is also almost identical to the current rules for a caster hitting a new level of spells.
So that 8th-level caster would have the same save DC for his Ice Storm using either version. When he went to level 10, the DC would go to 21, which matches the DC for his 5th-level spells. (Which is to say, he would have spells with that DC either way.)
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Are you thinking 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier?
Exactly! It makes all levels of spell actually useful and doesn't inflate the spellcasters power. It is a realistic reflection of the spellcasters ability.
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Exactly! It makes all levels of spell actually useful and doesn't inflate the spellcasters power. It is a realistic reflection of the spellcasters ability.
Are you thinking 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier?
This has been a house rule instituted in our campaign - it makes sense because most creature abilities are generated off the same calculation, so not allowing it (using RAW for spell lvl) actually weakens the PCs in comparison. It also allows wizards to memorize 1st lvl spells other than Magic Missile (OK, maybe not).
Jagyr, I find your solution low on the solvitude - as characters grow in level, spell levels fail to go up and the gap between spell DC and monster saves continues to grow. Heighten Spell doesn't help if your highest-level spells can't beat the monster saves. High level casters start poring over sourcebooks looking for spells without saving throws.
If the problem is one at epic levels - which I think is accurate, but I might be wrong - then I think the solution is an epic feat which changes spell DC to 10 + stat bonus + caster level / 2
Perhaps Heighten Spell should be a prerequisite for this feat?
Let me ask this question then:
Let's use the 10 + 1/2 caster level + Ability score modifier for our new determination of saves. Why is the fireball spell of this mage as easy or difficult to save against as his meteor swarm? You waited till you were 17th level as a wizard to get that mighty spell, but as far as your opponents are concerned, one's as easy as the other to reduce damage for (if you're not directly hit, that is).
Also, consider how many feats and prestige classes (and domains, etc.) grant a boost to caster level. Factor this into your equation as well.
From an internal consistency viewpoint, I like this plan. From the viewpoint of permitting casters to retain use out of their low-level spell slots in combat, I like it. Even from the view that a more skilled caster should have spells that are just more difficult to resist, I like it. But I think the spell's level still needs to be in the equation somewhere, somehow. I'd also like to see some playtesting to see if the number for the caster level can be seriously tweaked by a determined min/maxer (circle magic perhaps?).
Let me ask this question then:
Let's use the 10 + 1/2 caster level + Ability score modifier for our new determination of saves. Why is the fireball spell of this mage as easy or difficult to save against as his meteor swarm? You waited till you were 17th level as a wizard to get that mighty spell, but as far as your opponents are concerned, one's as easy as the other to reduce damage for (if you're not directly hit, that is).
Easy..."Four 40-ft.radius spreads"
Also, consider how many feats and prestige classes (and domains, etc.) grant a boost to caster level. Factor this into your equation as well.
Spell Save DC 10 + 1/2 caster level - spell level + Ability? Higher level spells are more difficult to cast?
Spell Save DC 10 + 1/2 caster level - spell level + Ability? Higher level spells are more difficult to cast?
Hmm... what about DC 10+ 1/2 (caster level + spell level) + Ability.
So a First level spell will have a DC 11+Ability (at 1st level) (same as it is now).
At 5th level, the DC for a 3rd level spell is 14+Ability (1 higher than normal)
At 11th level, the DC for a 6th level spell is 18+Ability (2 higher)
At 15th level, the DC for an 8th level spell is 21+ability (3 higher)
At 20th level, the DC for a 9th level spell is 24+Ability (5 higher).
The DC for a 1st level spell is 20+Ability... which makes it possibly effecive in higher CR encounters.Considering that the monster saves (i.e. the Ancient Red) always seem considerably higher than any save DC anyway, this increase over time actually keeps the save or effect spells useful.
I like this version more, it just needs some testing now to see how it works. Alas that my current group is on hiatus!
This is a summary of the options. Choose whichever one you like.
DC: 10 + spell level + ability
Based on spell level. This doesn't consider relative power of spellcasters of different levels.
1st ___ 2nd ___ 3rd ___ 4th ___ 5th ___ 6th ___ 7th ___ 8th ___ 9th
11 __ _ 12 _ __ 13 _ _ _ 14 _ _ _ 15 _ _ _16 _ _ _ 17 ___ 18 _ _ _ 19
DC: 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability
Based on caster level. Reflects difference in power levels but make wizards more powerful at higher levels.
1st _ 2nd _ 3rd __4th __5th __ 6th ___7th ___8th ___9th __10th __ 11th _ 12th _ 13th __ 14th _ 15th __ 16th__17th __ 18th __19th _ 20th
11__ 11__ 12___ 12 __ 13 ___13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 __ _ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20
DC: caster level + spell level + ability
Based on caster level and spell level. Low level spellcasters should just stay home. Higher level spellcasters are way too powerful
Spell________________________________________________Caster Level_________________________________________________________
Level__ 1st _ 2nd _ 3rd __4th __5th __ 6th ___7th ___8th ___9th __10th __ 11th _ 12th _ 13th __ 14th _ 15th __ 16th__17th __ 18th __19th _ 20th
1st _ __ 2 ___ 3 ___ 4 ___ 5 ___ 6 _ _ _ 7 _ _ _ 8 _ _ __ 9 _ __ 10 ___ 11___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21
2nd ___ 3___ 4 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 7 _ _ _ 8 _ _ _ 9 _ _ _ 10 _ __ 11 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22
3rd ___ 4 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 8 _ _ _ 9 _ _ _ 10 ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23
4th ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 9 _ _ _ 10 ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 24
5th ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 9 ___ 10 ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 25
6th ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 9 ___10 ___11 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 25 ___ 26
7th ___ 8 ___ 9 ___10___11___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 25 ___ 26 ___ 27
8th ___ 9 __ 10 ___11___12 ___13 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 25 ___ 26 ___ 27 ___ 28
9th ___ 10 _ 11 ___12___13___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 25 ___ 26 ___ 27 ___ 28 ___ 29
DC: 10 + 1/2 (caster level + spell level) + Ability
Also, too powerful at higher levels.
Spell_________________________________________________Caster Level_________________________________________________________
Level _ 1st ___ 2nd __ 3rd ___4th ___5th __ 6th ___7th ___8th ___9th __10th __ 11th _ 12th _ 13th __ 14th _ 15th __ 16th__17th _ 18th __19th _ 20th
1st ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21
2nd _ _ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21
3rd ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22
4th ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22
5th ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23
6th ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23
7th ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23 ___ 24
8th ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 24
9th ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 24 ___ 25
DC: 10 + 1/2 caster level - spell level + Ability
Not much of a change at lower levels. Higher level casters are reduced in power.
Spell _________________________________________________Caster Level_______________________________________________
Level _ 1st __ 2nd__3rd__4th__5th __6th__7th __8th __9th__10th _ 11th _ 12th _ 13th __ 14th _ 15th __ 16th__17th _ 18th __19th _ 20th
1st ___ 10 __ 10 __ 11 __ 11 __ 12 __ 12 __ 13 __ 13 __ 14 __ 14 ___15 __ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19
2nd ___ 9 ___ 9 __ 10 __ 10 __ 11 __ 11 __ 12 __ 12 __ 13 __ 13 ___14 __ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18
3rd ___ 8 ___ 8 ___ 9 ___ 9 __ 10 __ 10 _ _ 11 __ 11 __ 12 __ 12 ___13 __ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17
4th ___ 7 ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 8 ___ 9 ___ 9 ___ 10 __10 __ 11 __ 11 ___12 __ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16
5th ___ 6 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 8 ___ 9 ___ 9 ___10 __ 10 ___11 __ 11 ___ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15
6th ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 8 ___ 9 ___ 9 ___ 10 __ 10 ___ 11 ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14
7th ___ 4 ___ 4 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 7 ___ 8 ___ 8 ___ 9 __ _ 9 _ __ 10 ___ 10 ___ 11 ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13
8th ___ 3 ___ 3 ___ 4 ___ 4 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 7 ___ 8 __ _ 8 _ _ _ 9 _ _ _ 9 _ _ _ 10 ___ 10 ___ 11 ___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 12
9th ___ 2 ___ 2 ___ 3 ___ 3 ___ 4 ___ 4 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 6 ___ 7 __ _ 7 _ _ _ 8 _ _ _ 8 _ _ _ 9 _ _ _ 9 _ _ _ 10 ___ 10 ___ 11 ___ 11
Not sure how you got a DC 25+Ability for the 9th level spell at 20th... I came up with 24 (10+ 1/2 (20+9)= 10 + 1/2(29)= 10+14.5= 24.5; rnd down to 24 (always round down on stuff like this.
By comparison to the current system, levels 1-3 are the same for the highest spell (lower level spells become tougher to save, but I don't see this being an unbalancing effect).
Level 4-7 the DC is +1 over the DC in 3.5 now. Again, not a significant change (effectively the same as Spell Focus, or helping a Wizard who decided to have a con score in addition to an int).
Level 8-11 the DC is +2 over the DC in 3.5 now.
Level 12-15, the DC is +3 over the DC in 3.5 now.
Level 16-18, the DC is +4 over the DC in 3.5 now.
Level 19-20, the DC is +5 over the DC in 3.5 now.
I also looked at the base saves, high and low.
Currently, High saves are between 8 and 9 lower than the Save DCs (from 1-20). Using the above system of setting the DCs, the High saves are between 8 and 13 lower. Increases the chance of failure, on the high end, by about 25%.
Low Saves are between 11 and 14 lower than the DCs in 3.5 (again, looking just at the base numbers, without considering abilities, equipment, or other boosts). Under the proposed system, the low saves are between 11 and 18 lower than the DCs (increasing the chance of failure by 20%).
Is this overpowered? Or does it simply make save or effect spells viable at higher levels for PCs? Personally, I think this may work to make save or effect spells useful longer.
In fact I had decided to give DC + 1/2 caster level + ability a try in our new campaign. For one thing, one player keeps wondering why (flavor-wise, not crunch-wise) he never gets any better at his lower level spells. Plus, another big reason I want to try it is NPCs. Having a single save DC for NPC casters would be a very nice thing to have. It's not terrible as it is, but that's one thing that both simplifies and increase the utility of low level spells (as it is, I've seen some players not even bother tracking low level spells after a while because unless there's no save, there's no point in casting it).
I will point out, however, that the lowered effectiveness of saving throws was a major factor in increasing the power of spellcasters in 3.x; one of three that are directly attributable, IMO, to changes, or lack thereof, in the spell system.
In previous editions, a high-level character was very likely to save against spells; about 12th level, it became 50/50 for almost everyone. This affected what spells a magic-user threw, and how effective they were. If you chose Disintegrate, because it was an instant death spell, there was a good chance that your opponent would save against it and waste your action. It was better, in many situations, to cast Chain Lightning, which might not instantly kill your opponent, but gave you the ability to cause half damage if he saved. You wanted to be cagey about expending this spell, of course, because it would take you a solid hour of study to regain it.
3.x changed this. Saving throws became much more difficult, meaning save-or-die spells (like Disintegrate) now had a decent chance of succeeding, and often carried a penalty for failing a save; they become much more attractive as a result.
Simultaneously, all spell memorization/preparation times were slashed; instead of 10 minutes per level of spell you were memorizing, you could prepare all of your spells in one hour, no matter how many there are. At 18th level, a 2nd edition wizard had to spend about 23 hours memorizing his spells if he expended them all. This is going to make him reluctant to spend his big hitters when he doesn't have to... they're time-intensive, and things happen while he's studying. By comparison, an 18th level wizard in 3.x can blow his entire spell memorization quota in just over 5 and a half minutes (not including bonus spells, but also not including Quickened spells), and then recover all of them with 8 hours of sleep and 1 hour of study. This freed wizards from having to be judicious with their now-more-powerful magic, greatly increasing their power on a daily basis (especially if the player metagames the number of encounters, or there is a convenient escape from easy interruption of sleep... such as the sextuple-duration Rope Trick that came with 3.x).
And what didn't happen? Spell damages didn't change. Magic Missile does the same amount of damage now that it did in 1977; less, if you account for the fact that it now caps at 5 missiles. While HPs were going up (due to lowered threshholds for a Con bonus and uncapped Con scores and bonuses), spell damages remained the same, meaning that a successful wizard did WELL to fall back on the quick killing save-or-die spells, because his direct damage spells were the equivalent of peeing on a forest fire.
Sorry, I've rambled; this topic is a bit of a pet of mine, and I keep running across new ways that 3.x really messed up the dynamic between warriors and wizards, heavily slanting things in favor of the wizards; these are just the reasons that deal with the magic system, not the combat system as a whole, or other things that were included.
Short version: Improving the save DCs of spells is a bad idea, as it puts full spellcasters further ahead of non-spellcasters, a boost they do not need. Low-level spells are easy to save against because they are relatively simple and low-powered magical constructs; it is the skill of the wizard that ekes out more oomph from these little constructs, giving you the increases in effect with level, but they can't do anything about its complexity and power without either redesigning it or kludging it and throwing more power behind the spell (i.e. Heighten Spell).
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Spell Save DC 10 + 1/2 caster level - spell level + Ability? Higher level spells are more difficult to cast?
Hmm... what about DC 10+ 1/2 (caster level + spell level) + Ability.
So a First level spell will have a DC 11+Ability (at 1st level) (same as it is now).
At 5th level, the DC for a 3rd level spell is 14+Ability (1 higher than normal)
At 11th level, the DC for a 6th level spell is 18+Ability (2 higher)
At 15th level, the DC for an 8th level spell is 21+ability (3 higher)
At 20th level, the DC for a 9th level spell is 24+Ability (5 higher).
The DC for a 1st level spell is 20+Ability... which makes it possibly effecive in higher CR encounters.Considering that the monster saves (i.e. the Ancient Red) always seem considerably higher than any save DC anyway, this increase over time actually keeps the save or effect spells useful.
I'm thinking I like the 10+1/2(CL+SL)+AM
This helps when you're running up against things with SR, when they effectively get 2 saves...it makes lower level spells more useful when you've blown your load of higher level spells.
I don't particularly like Heighten much anyway, it's ineffective on damaging spells, and is primarily used for making enchantments stick on higher level monsters.
Not sure how you got a DC 25+Ability for the 9th level spell at 20th... I came up with 24 (10+ 1/2 (20+9)= 10 + 1/2(29)= 10+14.5= 24.5; rnd down to 24 (always round down on stuff like this.
Sorry, an aberration of excel. Regardless, anything that increases the power of a spellcaster is unbalancing. As many people have already pointed out, spellcasters are powerful enough.
Spell___________________________________________________Caster Level_________________________________________________________
Level 1st ___ 2nd __ 3rd ___4th ___5th __ 6th ___7th ___8th ___9th __10th __ 11th _ 12th _ 13th __ 14th _ 15th __ 16th__17th _ 18th __19th _ 20th
1st___11___ 11 ___ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20
2nd ___11_ _ 12 ___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21
3rd___ 12___ 12 ___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21
4th___ 12___ 13 ___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22
5th___ 13___ 13 ___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22
6th___ 13___ 14 ___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23
7th___ 13___ 14 ___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23
8th___ 14___ 15 ___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23 ___ 24
9th___ 14___ 15 ___ 16 ___ 16 ___ 17 ___ 17 ___ 18 ___ 18 ___ 19 ___ 19 ___ 20 ___ 20 ___ 21 ___ 21 ___ 22 ___ 22 ___ 23 ___ 23 ___ 24 ___ 24
Sorry, an aberration of excel. Regardless, anything that increases the power of a spellcaster is unbalancing. As many people have already pointed out, spellcasters are powerful enough.
I thought you started this thread wanting to increase the save DCs of lower level spells? By doing that, you increase the power of the spellcasters.
If spellcasters are already unbalanced, then there's nothing that can be done in a backward compatable tweak to 3.5 that will change that.
What the above proposal will do is make those save or effect spells at lower levels worth preparing at higher levels... and the increase to DC is relatively small (until you get to level 16 and up). Those last 4 levels, the increase in DC is significant, and it's here that the low saves are really out-paced. But, most monsters seem to have much higher saves anyway, so all this does is start to catch up.
I guess the question is: Does making save or effect spells useful increase the power of spellcasters enough to make them so much more powerful than they currently are to be unbalancing?
This is one of things about the d20 system that I have never understood. Why is the DC for a spell save based on spell level and not caster level? A 15th level wizard should be able to cast a more effective 1st level spell than a 3rd level wizard.
If PRPG used caster level as the basis for spell DC, higher level spellcasters would still have a use for their low-level spells.
Would this type of rule make high-level spellcasters too powerful?
Not in and of itself. (1/2 level) + stat modifier is how a lot of abilities work anyway... with the notable exception of spells. It would have the side effect of making spells scale, however, and that can throw a lot of weirdness into the mix. I actually like the idea, but realize that the game changes significantly when hold person is just as good at level 18 as it was at level 5.
The only glaring problem I can see with this new system is how saving throws work. A fighter or rogue has a single good save (Fortitude and Reflex respectively) which means that the fighter has a good chance of saving against slay living while a rogue has a good chance of saving against fireball. Unfortunately, both classes also have two poor saving throws, which means they are quite likely to fail spells which require them.
Now, with that discrepancy in mind (which continues to grow bigger and bigger as PCs advance in level) consider what increasing the spell save DCs of all spells would accomplish? Characters with good saves probably wouldn't be hurt that much, while characters with poor saves would be hammered. Now you may think I am overreacting and magic items and feats can improve saves, but the same can be said for spellcasters. Between Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, Heighten Spell and ability boosting magic items, spell save DCs could be so high that certain characters or monsters might never stand a chance of saving against them unless they rolled quite well.
Also, consider this. You have a 20th-level enemy fighter with a +6 base Will save, +3 for a cloak, +1 for Wisdom, and +2 for Iron Will. Then you have a 17th-level PC cleric with hold person and a Wisdom of 25 (15 base + 4 stat increases + periapt of Wisdom +6)Now the save against the spell is DC 19, which means the fighter has a pretty good chance of succeeding against it. But if we were to increase the power of the spell as suggested, a 2nd-level spell would be DC 26 (base 10 + (17 + 2) + 7 = 26). Now that enemy fighter better start praying he rolls a 14 or higher otherwise he might as well kiss his life goodbye.
Sorry, but until saving throws are also changed, I don't think spell DCs should be modified any further than they already are.
Devil’s Advocate: Using spell level as a basis of spell save DC already takes into account caster level. Only higher level casters can use higher level spells.
However,the point of this thread was that this mechanic doesn’t take into account spellcasters of different levels casting the same level of spell. From a roleplaying standpoint, I think it should. Is there a mechanic that can do this without upsetting the balance of the game? Probably not. Using Spell save DC 10 + 1/2 caster level – spell level + ability modifier comes close. I may institute it as a house rule and see how it works.
Devil’s Advocate: Using spell level as a basis of spell save DC already takes into account caster level. Only higher level casters can use higher level spells.
However,the point of this thread was that this mechanic doesn’t take into account spellcasters of different levels casting the same level of spell. From a roleplaying standpoint, I think it should. Is there a mechanic that can do this without upsetting the balance of the game? Probably not. Using Spell save DC 10 + 1/2 caster level – spell level + ability modifier comes close. I may institute it as a house rule and see how it works.
That's the system that drops the save DC at level 1-3 by 1 on first level spells, and ultimately has 9th level spells that no one can fail? (DC 11+Ability?, when a low save is 6, add 5 for resistance and then it's down to ability v. ability).
I don't see that as an improvement, unless you don't want your casters casting higher level spells that have a save or effect.
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For a few years now in my games I've been calculating a spell DC as 10 + level of the highest spell character can cast + stat mod (+ whatever feats modify this). Having just one save DC for a caster makes it much easier and quicker (for players and GM). Using maximum level of spell that can be cast means that some of the partial spell casters (bards, paladins, rangers) still get better at casting low level spells but they never match the full spell casters. (If you use 1/2 caster level then the high level bard may only be able to cast 6th level spells but he is casting spells as effectively as the same level wizard.)
I don't see that as an improvement, unless you don't want your casters casting higher level spells that have a save or effect.
As I pointed out, I am looking at this from a roleplaying point of view, not a game mechanic point of view. I prefer to base the rules on roleplaying, not roleplaying on the rules. If I wanted a lot of rules without roleplaying, I would just buy 4th edition (where all the roleplaying is done for you).
For one thing, one player keeps wondering why (flavor-wise, not crunch-wise) he never gets any better at his lower level spells.
The boards ate my post.
What I said before was that spells increase in range, duration, damage and effect as you gain level so you do get better. The save DC being based on spel level to me means there is only so much inherent magic in the spell so those with less magic are easier to shrug off. You can modify it with understanding (feats) or skill (attribute bonuses) but the amount of magic is the same.
I must say usually rather conservative with changes, and I'm quite taken with this idea.
Positive points:
1. Doesn't increase the Cap of power level (with the exception of those items/feats that boost caster level for all purposes).
2. Very very simple.
3. Extremely close to the current system at lower levels.
4. Makes fireball vs. 20th level Rogue potentially do something once in a while.
Negative points:
1. It does boost the power level of high level casters by a moderate amount. I would insist that is only moderate, because if this was a game breaker a *lot* more wizards would actually take Heighten Spell (I think my *Gestalt* Artificer is the only one in my games who ever has).
2. Spells are partially balanced in level by the save DC increase, but only partially.
Super-mega-positive point:
1. Combined with the "Magic Rating" system from Unearthed Arcana, found here, multi-class casters *finally* become truly decent. Magic Rating stacks caster level from multiple classes - only for 'casting level' purposes - including small bonuses from non-casting classes.
And that without having to shove on some mangled overpowered "level everything at once" class (see Fochlucan Lyricist, Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus, etc.)
For instance, a 4th level wizard, 4th level cleric - only second level spells, but at least any DC's on those spells are 14 + stat.
Super-silly-positive point:
1. Makes saves a little more like 1st edition (in the "single number" sense).
I recognize what some others have mentioned about Fighter saving throws, etc. at higher level - they will have to suffer through more hard to make high DC saves (note: not higher DC, just more of them). I don't think it makes as much difference as one might think, considering battles tend not to last that long, but this is a valid point. The 1/2 vs. 1/3 progression of good vs. poor saves is responsible for that.
Scaling DC's by: 10 + 1/3 Caster Level + Ability, would scale the DC's to the poor saving throws, instead of the good saving throws. That means those good at a save, would get *better* against it, but not super-dominate vs. low level spells. Previously they would keep even with the high level spells.
On the flip side, currently poor saves get progressively worse and worse, and eased a bit on the lower level spells (only have to make a few really though ones before things get easier in each battle). Going by 1/3 they wouldn't get worse, but the DC's wouldn't drop as a battle goes on.
Another option I guess. Again very little change at early levels, but more distinctly different from 3.5. If somehow this gets adopted, perhaps a "Softer Saves" sidebar.
As I pointed out, I am looking at this from a roleplaying point of view, not a game mechanic point of view. I prefer to base the rules on roleplaying, not roleplaying on the rules. If I wanted a lot of rules without roleplaying, I would just buy 4th edition (where all the roleplaying is done for you).
I don't see that as an improvement, unless you don't want your casters casting higher level spells that have a save or effect.
I've gotta' be missing something here... shouldn't the mechanics foster roleplaying by giving the players more options for their characters?
How do the rules promote roleplaying when you render the 9th level options of 5 schools useless? (abjuration, enchantment, evocation, illusion, and necromancy primarily have save or effect spells at this level, but with a DC of 11+Ability, no one will fail at level 20). This seems to reduce options for wizards.
The proposal to boost the dcs of lower level spells would end up with the reverse effect... giving casters more viable options in any given encounter. What if color spray actually had a chance of being useful in a higher level encounter?
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I kind of like the proposal.
10+1/2 caster level + ability modifier is an equation we're used to seeing from monster attacks, and a flat DC is good for making low level spells more useful.
The ability modifier tends to make things more 'swingy', especially with Pathfinder giving races like the elf a +2 Intelligence. To avoid that a saving throw of 10+1/2 caster level + spell level would reduce the power of low level casters a bit (usually), and cap the 'insane' high DCs that high level casters can create.
But, I think the first one has some possibility. I'd like to see it play tested. So, I think I will.
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How about a happy medium between the two? Instead of 10 + 1/2 caster level + Ability score modifier have it instead spell level + 1/2 caster level + ability score modifier. This way, the Save DC scales with both caster level AND spell level, and again, makes those lower level spells usefull at higher levels.
Been using this as a house rule for some time, and it has gone a long way towards closing the gap between saves and DC's.
SL+1/2CL+AS? did you forget the 10+?
with that formula, a level 1 spell cast by a level 1 caster and 18 int, is 1+1+4=DC6
did you typo?
I still think 1/2 level (rounded down) + ability mod + 10 is fine.
This is what most monster abilities use to figure out DC's so why not for the PC's too?