[Design Focus] Skills

[BM]

Something that came up in another thread, don't make skills auto-max.

Under auto-max rules(AKA-the current pathfinder RPG skill system)

If a PC/NPC/monster should take a skill, it gains ranks up to its HD+3. This is a problem for high HD monsters as they automaticaly become better than low HD creatures even if the low HD creature should be better at it.

For example: lvl 20 PCs will be better swimmers than some a aquatic NPC at level 1 even through the NPC has a swim speed, and +8 racial mod.

I know that this a problem from skills being tied to HD, but Pathfinder like systems make it worse.

[NekoMouser]

Jumping into this a bit late, but whatever. ^_^

I like the Pathfinder Alpha skills setup. Reduction of overall number of skills goes a long way to making stat blocks smaller and skill choices mean a bit more. The only thing I think I'd be seriously inclined to change would be the way Knowledge, Craft and Profession work. I'll get back to that in a bit.

I'm also fond of the trained class/trained cross-class/untrained skill point setup. It makes for faster character creation (number one complaint about gaming around my table. I haven't been allowed to run GURPS for years...*sniffs*).

It also results, as noted by a number of previous posters, in a greater number of skills at usable levels. Okay, maybe that wasn't how it was said, but that's what I got from it. Let's face it, putting three points in a skill along the way in 3.5 is not going to make for a broader character. It's just going to waste three skill points. You won't be able to do anything with that skill at later levels. By applying the Alpha version skill ranks, you get a meaningful level of ability at every level without having to go back and change DCs, which are far more core to the d20 skill system than actual skill points, IMO.

Oh..and here's a thought. Let's look at the effective fighter builds in 3.5, shall we? Two skill points per level...huh. Maybe if you're human. Hmm. Okay, Three. Now lets see if we can tag that to some medieval knight types. Ability to swim a moat in armor, that's one. Ability to ride a horse, two. Ability to intimidate peasants, a very important three. Ability to climb effectively in medium to heavy armor, oh...well, sorry. You'll have to raise you're Intelligence for that. Let's not get into Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), or the ability to look after your own weapons and armor, or the ability to jump over anything higher than a drunken comrades comatose carcass. This doesn't make sense for a high level character, and it never has. Pathfinder Alpha's skill system allows for a character to grow into new areas without sacrificing core abilities. In this case, the Fighter wouldn't learn all those skills immediately but would develop new abilities over time, growing from a simple peasant with a sword into a legendary knight of unparalleled excellence. Miyamoto Musashi and Roland couldn't have gotten by on 2+Int bonus skill points, y'all.

Again, this opens up a better game with better characters without changing the actual skill mechanics which make up the core of the system. When you read that the DC to find and remove a trap in a part of Red Hand of Doom is 25, it's not going to be significant that you rolled that check with a skill bought Paizo's way or with skill points, any more than if that check was rolled with a skill called Disable Device or Theft. The DC is still the same. Honestly, I'd think the benefits of making more elaborate monster skill sets at higher hit die totals would appeal to more game masters as well.

Having beat that horse for a bit, let me get to my Knowledge, Profession and Craft problem. First thing I noticed about the Pathfinder skill list was a shorter list of skills overall, with a huge chunk of different knowledge skills taken out of the middle. It's one skill with a ton of different areas, not unlike Profession and Craft (or Perform to a lesser extent), save that the skill variants are all listed on the main skill list. I can empathize with the need to keep the various Knowledge specializations, and let's face it you don't want to roll all knowledge together as one big skill without specialization. What if you took a note from Linguistics, though? You get a new language every time you get a new skill choice. Groovy. What if we added the option to expand a Craft, Profession or Knowledge skill into another area of specialization in the same way. At levels where you get a new skill choice, you could either take a new language or a new specialty in a Craft, Knowledge or Profession skill (assuming you've already payed out a skill choice to purchase the skill itself). If Linguistics is about expanding your knowledge of language, then shouldn't the other skills relating to bodies of varied knowledge operate in a similar way? Of course, for Knowledge fields that aren't possessed as class skills by any of your classes you'd then be considered trained cross-class regardless of whether the first Knowledge specialty was class or cross class for your character.

That's got it nicely, I think. Thoughts?

[Kirth Gersen]

NekoMouser,

I disagree with your assertion that a few ranks make a "useless" skill, even at high levels; the rules are full of static DCs that are fairly easy to meet with a few ranks and a semi-decent ability modifier. There's a big difference in the RAW between 1 rank and 0 ranks in Knowledge as well: the chance of learning something basic (and an off-chance of learning something substantial), or no chance at all. I'm also very much against refusing to allow players to "waste" (spend) skill points as they please.

That said, I'm with you 100% with regards to Knowledge, Profession, and Craft. A person who can play one instrument adeptly has an easier time learning to play others. A skilled carpenter has an easier time learning to work metal than someone who has never handled a tool in his life. A sage will learn all kinds of unrelated facts during the course of his research. The game mechanics now reflect this trend with languages, but not with anything else -- and that's both silly and internally-inconsistent.

[NekoMouser]

Using Knowledge skills may not have been your best bet to counter my "useless" contention. While a single rank of Knowledge is better than none in that it allows a check, most Knowledge checks in published materials don't start giving you information until DC 15, with information that would allow you to make effective decisions reserved for DC 20 and above. The Pathfinder adventures themselves have some DCs in the neighborhood of 40. Placing a few ranks in a Knowledge isn't really going to cut it for someone planning to build the dispenser of sage advice (pardon the pun), and as a Fighter or Wizard under 3.5 OGL a few is all you've got to go on without damaging your ability to get your job done in the party. Let's not even get into skills like Use Magic Device, which has DCs bordering on the ridiculous when you consider that it's designed to mimic something that earlier edition Thieves only dabbled in.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the idea of building an inefficient character myself. But that's because I'm an experienced player and game master. But in OGL 3.5 it's too easy for an inexperienced player (a type I deal with a lot) to create a many skilled gimp. There are some skills it's okay to have at lower level. But unless you know all the generic DCs in the game, it's very difficult for a first time or casual player to build a character to be good at what they want. Reduction in the number of skills helps that, but I believe that it would be even more helpful to either skip skill points in favor of the Alpha system or start changing the DCs to be entirely uniform and CR dependent. Of those options, Alpha would seem the easiest to me to work into existing material. And with the reduction in "kid in a candy store" time for those with lots of skill points (high Int rogues) at character creation, that's a clear win for creating a character and starting a session with the new players in a single sit down.

Glad to see the other idea finding fertile ground, though. ^_^

[NekoMouser]

BM wrote:

If a PC/NPC/monster should take a skill, it gains ranks up to its HD+3. This is a problem for high HD monsters as they automaticaly become better than low HD creatures even if the low HD creature should be better at it.

For example: lvl 20 PCs will be better swimmers than some a aquatic NPC at level 1 even through the NPC has a swim speed, and +8 racial mod.

I know that this a problem from skills being tied to HD, but Pathfinder like systems make it worse.

I don't mean to be a obtuse about this, but how are the level 20 PCs ever going to know that? Ignoring the specifics of the example (I'm probably only moderately better than the 1st level NPC at swimming when you factor in my Plate Armor of Sinks Like A Rock +5), how many times do you set up skill versus skill situations with characters 19 levels apart in your game? The level 20 characters stopped being able to even get xp for that guy more than half their xp total ago. NPCs appropriate to their level with swim speeds and racial mods will still likely own them in the water. I don't know about your players, but mine don't react well to being punked out in skill checks by things that don't provide them xp.

[DeadDMWalking]

NekoMouser wrote:

I don't mean to be a obtuse about this, but how are the level 20 PCs ever going to know that? Ignoring the specifics of the example (I'm probably only moderately better than the 1st level NPC at swimming when you factor in my Plate Armor of Sinks Like A Rock +5), how many times do you set up skill versus skill situations with characters 19 levels apart in your game? The level 20 characters stopped being able to even get xp for that guy more than half their xp total ago. NPCs appropriate to their level with swim speeds and racial mods will still likely own them in the water. I don't know about your players, but mine don't react well to being punked out in skill checks by things that don't provide them xp.

I know that 4th edition is making a big move toward 'gamist' values, while 3.5 has been a fairly decent hybrid of gamist/simulationist values. I'd like to see the Pathfinder RPG keep the simulationist aspects. If it makes the moves towards gamism that 4.0 has, it may well lose a lot of support that it currently has. So, from the simulationist perspective it doesn't matter that the PCs will never know their relative swimming ability against a merfolk, since they'll never need to swim against one at 20th level. But for those of us who want the world to 'feel' real, it is a problem.

Part of the problem is that the increase is automatic once you choose the skill. Thus, if you play a character that wants to pick skills based on what you've done over the last level, if you choose swim once to represent your recent training, even though you travel to the arid desert of Neveranywaterever, you continue to gain ability in swimming. Now, I do like a system where the characters aren't penalized because they put a few ranks in swim back when they thought they were going to be spending their adventuring career on the open ocean, but once that situation changes, their ability to allocate those skills should change also. Now, 3.5 isn't perfect, since you can't 'get the skill points back', and once you put them in one skill, you'll never be able to max another skill. So, I do like the fact that under the Pathfinder system you pick up a new skill now and again.

However, I've solved that problem with skill points by giving slightly more than the 3.5, but not giving the x4 at 1st level. It means that eventually you max out your skills, and from that point on you can put the 'extra' skill points in a new skill.

[DracoDruid]

For some time now, I think about an option for PCs to spend XP directly to buy skill points (or even feats - what might be hard to balance).

I thought about 25-100XP kumulativ per point (1st point 25-100XP, 2nd 50-200XP, 3rd 75-300XP and so on).

[etrigan]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

4. Hybrid System: In this system, characters would get a number of skill ranks equal to the number of skill choices granted by the Skills chapter of the Pathfinder RPG. Skill ranks granted by the first level of your class must be spent on class skills. Skill ranks granted after first level and those granted by a high Intelligence score at first level could be spent on any skill. Instead of the class skill/cross-class skill distinction, your bonus in a skill would be determined in the following method.

0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = ability modifier + racial modifiers (or modifiers)
1 ranks – Trained: Bonus = 1/2 your character level + modifiers
2 ranks – Skilled: Bonus = your character level + modifiers
3 ranks – Expert: Bonus = your character level + 3 + modifiers
4 ranks – Master: Bonus = your character level +6 + modifiers
There are a few additional rules to go with this. At first level, you can have no skill higher than 2 ranks (or the skilled level). Many of the prestige class requirements would need an alteration to require expert or even master standing in some skills.

The only think that bother me with this system is that a low-level character won’t ever be able to have the equivalent in skill ranks that it could have with OGL 3.5.

But what if we remove the last ranks - Master and give a +3 bonus to all trained Class Skill instead?

Like this…:

0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = ability modifier + racial modifiers (or modifiers)
1 ranks – Apprentice: Bonus = 1/2 your character level + Class Skill Bonus + modifiers
2 ranks – Journeyman: Bonus = your character level + Class Skill Bonus + modifiers
3 ranks – Master: Bonus = your character level + Class Skill Bonus + 3 + modifiers (maybe we should remove the Skill Focus Feat as this rank work exactly the same way)

The +3 Class Skill bonus replace the x4 skills pts of OGL at first level. The system is still simple, flexible (you can still take hobby skills) and the skill bonus will be more in line with the 3.5 OGL.

What do you think?

[David Lowery]

Skill points.

At this time, I prefer the 3.5 method.

If you are going to create a party of NPCs to rival you PCs, you should spend the time to do it. If yu are vcreating generic cookie-cutter characters, well ...

Quick and dirty method. A PC has its level in skill points applied whatever skills it is likely to have. Done.

Skill points for the Rogue-2 Wizard-6 Fighter-2 Arcane Archer-4 (CL14).
Rogue 8x5 = 40 divide by 4 gives 10
I don't know how many skill points an arcane archer gets but say 2
2x12=24 divide by 4 gives 6
16 skills with 4 ranks each. trim to 8 skills with 8 rand each.
Int 16 (+3) x 14 = 42 divide by 8 gives 5 and a half (say 6) more skills
Total 14 skills at 8 ranks ea. or 7 skills at 16 ranks ea.
I don't see this as difficult.

Thanks for listening (reading).

[Grondin Nicolas]

It is not illogical to consider skill to be knowledge of an inherent class which evolve as the experience is earned (and levelsļ) : a character exploits his study better through acquired experience and gives it to new acquired knowledge. I do not say that I stick completely to this idea but she cannot, in my view, be completely excluded.
Indeed, Versions of D&D (and 3 +) have never favored a system of entrainment ¡V favoring game options and relative simplicity on pseudo-realism/simulationism. Why a druid who does not stop resting in an urban environment shall continue earning druid's faculties through the benefit of its levels? Why would a warlike fighter webbed in intrigues of palace without having opportunity to fight advance in his fighter capacities taking feats, physical based skills and fighting options?
In some cases because the player chose it

The tendency of the players is to maximize their skills, and those who take some ranks here and there often limit themselves to 5 ranks to benefit of synergy bonus. At the very most, they develop some competences later or because of multiclassing or request in a prestige class.

In game purposes, the system of competences must be compatible with edition 3.5 AND make easier the life of everybody (particularly of DMs). In this purpose, automatic progress offered in PathfinderRPG is not a poor thing-in-itself and constitutes a good foundation:

I have already introduced earlier in this thread a draft of system taking that of Saga / Pathfinder back but with some development to make it easy, consistent and retro-compatible with 3.5, while giving choices to the player.

At first level, your character gains a number of skills dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier. At every even character level after that, you gain another skill (1 at 2nd level, another at 4th, etc.).

These skills can be divided into two categories, class skills and cross-class skills. Class skills are those favored by your chosen class (or classes). Your character is most proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. Your character can be knowledgeable in cross-class skills, but you will never be as skilled with them as you will be in those favored by your class.

Whenever your character is required to make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add the appropriate modifier.

If the skill is one that you are trained in and it¡¦s a class skill, your bonus on the skill check is equal to your class level + your relevant ability score modifier. If the skill is one that you are trained in but it¡¦s a cross-class skill, your bonus on the skill check is equal to 1/2 your class level (round down) + your relevant ability score modifier. If you are not trained in the skill (and it may be tried untrained) you may attempt the skill using only the bonus (or penalty) provided by the skill¡¦s associated ability score modifier.

In the case of multiclassing, simply add the corresponding level of each class separately.

Trained Cross Class skill rank modifier = 1/2 class level
Trained Class skill rank modifier = class level
Untrained skill rank modifier = 0

Example: a fighter 6 /rogue 6 with a intelligence score of 14, trained in Disable Device would have a Skill check of +11 (+6 for rogue level, +3(6/2) for fighter level and +2 for intelligence modifier). With the same ability score, a trained rogue 12 would have a check modifier of 14 (+12 for rogue levels and +2 for ability modifier). A Trained Fighter 12 would have a skill modifier of +8 (6(=12/2) +2 (ability modifier).

Note : consider the level dependant skill modifier as skill rank for purpose of compatibility with 3.5.

Each time a character gain another skill, he has some option:
- Add a new skill as Trained

- Focusing in a Trained skill : he gains a +3 modifier in the skill (for compatibility with 3.5 you can consider it as a skill rank bonus). Can be take once for each skill.

- Choose a trained skill which is class skill in at least one class of the character : the skill become class skill in all class he has to determine the skill modifiers (Multiclassed character only)
In the course of his progress, a character has 10 skill option (Pathfinder RPG).

[i]A monoclassed character may choose to "specialize" (maximizing rang bonus equivalent in 3.5) in 5 competences of his choice or to diversify his knowledge to 10 competences (add to the initial choice). For multiclassed character, they can easily diversify their skills but cross class skills cost them more.

This system is easy to handle with, and DM friendly for monster/PNJ, 3.5 retrocompatible, and give some choice to players.

To this I shall add some options:
Options 1: allow to a character of 1st level to specialize in a number of competence equal to its modifier of intelligence.
Option 2: restrict the number of specialization which a charcater can have in the course of his life by his intelligence modifier. I am not so much for but it can interest some DMs
Option 3: a Favored Class benefit ; example : a favored class character can choose a class skill in which he has a +1 modifier per 5 levels in the favored class.
Option 4: restrict focusing in a skil to Trained Class skill

I will test this skill system next week, with creating 12 Lvl PCs for testing purposes and have other players/DMs feedback.

-Nyco

[DeadDMWalking]

All in all, not a bad system, Nyco, but not for me.

The various 'SAGA style' systems all have less customization than skills. I feel like a bunch of people are telling me that we should drop pennies. They cost more to produce than they are worth, and nothing in the economy is affected if you round to the nearest .05

I want to keep pennies. I want to keep the smallest possible unit of skill currency so we can spend our $1.25 however we want. If that is 12 skills with 10 ranks and 1 with 5, or 5 skills with 24 ranks (at 21st level, of course) I'm fine with that. I like a choice, and I like the widest possible range of choices.

[DeadDMWalking]

Wierd. I posted this and it appeared as the last post on page 7. This could become a double post when the boards finish hiccupping.

All in all, not a bad system, Nyco, but not for me.

The various 'SAGA style' systems all have less customization than skills. I feel like a bunch of people are telling me that we should drop pennies. They cost more to produce than they are worth, and nothing in the economy is affected if you round to the nearest .05

I want to keep pennies. I want to keep the smallest possible unit of skill currency so we can spend our $1.25 however we want. If that is 12 skills with 10 ranks and 1 with 5, or 5 skills with 24 ranks (at 21st level, of course) I'm fine with that. I like a choice, and I like the widest possible range of choices.

[gr1bble]

I too like Epic Meepo's version. It's simple, 100% backwards compatible for single classed characters and gives multi-class characters a bit of a boost - something I think most people agree is needed.

How about the Skill List? Not sure if this thread is intended to discuss that or not, but I thought it might be useful to summarise what seems to be the prevailing opinions:

High Degree of Agreement
From what I've read on the forums and discussing with other gamers, I'm going to contend that 90+% of people agree with these consolidations:

• Perception = Spot + Listen + Search
  
• Stealth = Hide + Move Silently
  
• Mechanics/Disable Device = Disable Device + Open Locks
  
• Acrobatics = Balance + Tumble
  
• Spellcraft/Knowledge(arcana)/Concentration being consolidated into at most 2 skills - one theoretical, one practical
  
• Removing Use Rope as a skill
  

Moderate Degree of Agreement
Roughly 75% of people agree with these consolidations:

• Linguistics = Speak Language + Decipher Script
  
• Athletics = Climb + Swim + Jump
  
• Spellcraft/Knowledge(arcana)/Concentration being consolidated into a single skill
  
• Deception = Bluff + Disguise
  
• Diplomacy = Diplomacy + Gather Information
  
• Making Forgery a part of Craft or something similiar
  
• Handle Animal = Handle Animal + Ride
  
• Acrobatics = Balance + Tumble + Escape Artist
  

Beyond that, I think we really start getting into the contentious things like Persuasion = Diplomacy + Intimidate or consolidating/removing Knowledge skills.

Opinions?

[David Jackson 60]

For the record, I like the current Pathfinder method the best, Meepo's idea second best, and scaling the Third best. The only way you should consolidate skills further is if you go with a point system.

I am of the camp that thinks skills were too hard to come by for characters.

Also, in regards to the idea of taking Rogue at 1st...really cherrypicking was always too effective and still probably will be. Not everybody will cherrypick and not everybody takes that route will pick Rogue. Why just pick rogue when you can pick a wizard or cleric and get 3 minor spell like abilities per day and 2 spells ...some of which will never become unuseful in the campain. If your a wizard with 12 INT, you get actually get 3 spells per day with the bonded item and the ability to sribe some of these scrolls down, being able to both cast 3 times and/or scribe ray of enfeeblement, true strike, feather fall, expeditious retreat, Protection from evil, Detect secret doors, detect undead, comprehend languages, obscuring mist, disguise self, and jump. Also, you can use first level wands and get a school power...one of which can give you +1 to strength...another gives you +2 to three skill checks.

For clerics the argument is similar. You could take the Knowledge domain and have all the knowledge checks as class skills at first level, plus the ability to touch a creature and know it's weaknesses automatically.

Or how about Bard? You get the ability to dispel and fancinate based on a skill check, 6 starting skills + INT, and whatever pathfinder adds to the mix when they show us what they did with the class.

In fact, it seems like there are heavy bonuses to taking any class at 1st level minus the fighter, yet it's really in the fighters interest to cherrypick one of these levels and not so much for everybody else... which is why I think the fighter still needs a bit more.

I think the best way to end cherrypicking, which is really the only problem I see with the skill system is to have some other deterrent at low levels for it.

[DeadDMWalking]

gr1bble wrote:

Opinions?

I think your guesstimate is a bit off as far as the percentages. A big chunk of people that have been talking in the general forum but not so much the skill forum are talking about how skill consolidation has gone too far already.

I'd say if you take about 25% off of each of your guesses, you're about right. And there are certainly some who have multiple opinions. Sort of 'I like this best, but if not this, then this is acceptable'.

I think once the system is nailed down, more people will feel comfortable tweaking the skill list.

Another point - many agree with part of a consolidation, but not all of it. There are some that think Search should be independent of perception due to different ability mods but do support the combination of spot/listen into search.

[DeadDMWalking]

gr1bble wrote:

Opinions?

Boards ate my post.

In any case, I think that your guesstimates are about 25% too high. There are a lot of people that haven't been active on the skills board but have been on the general board asking to forget about consolidation due to backward compatability, etc.

For the '75%' it may be substantially lower.

There are also some that generally favor some changes (the creation of perception) but not specificially including all the elements (Search, for instance). They haven't really said anything about Perception since they seem to like it, but they have said that skills that referenced different ability scores should not be combined.

I do think when we know what the general system will be, it will be easier to fine tune the skill selection.

I definitely don't want to go to a much smaller list of skills. I don't want to combine handle animal and ride, for instance.

[Plognark]

My group has so far been extremely happy with the Alpha system as presented, with the extra option of taking a class skill selection and splitting it into two class skill selections, but at the cross-class level.

The one thing I don't agree with is the set skill progression not based on class, but only level. It seems that classes with high skill counts should gain more skills than those with less. That also makes prestige classes that had high skill values more desirable.

This is a fix we're going to test, we'll see how it works out:

2 skills: 1/8 per level

4 skills: 1/4 per level

6 skills: 1/3 per level

8 skills: 1/2 per level

INT bonus: + 1/8 per +1 INT mod bonus.

It's a little funky because it's adding fractions in, which adds a HUGE level of complexity to an otherwise quick and simple system that was devised to cut down on number crunching. It's got a similar feel to fractional BAB and save bonuses fro UA (which we also use).

Example: I've got a rogue swashbuckler in my game; INT 14.

He started off with 10 skill selection (8 + 2 for his INT rating). His second rogue level gives him +1/4 for his INT and +1/2 for his class, for 3/4...so no new skill yet.

His third level he starts advancing as swashbuckler, so he gets another +1/4 skill for his INT and now +1/4 for his class. This puts him at 1 and 1/4, so he snags a new skill at third level and still has 1/4 hanging, wating for a new pick.

Fourth level he goes Swashbuckler again, getting another +1/4 from INT and +1/4 from class, or + 1/2, for a total of 3/4...so no new skill at fourth.

Fifth level he goes back to rogue, gaining another +1/2 from the rogue class and 1/4 from his INT. This gives him 1 and 1/2 now, so he snags a new skill and has 1/2 a selection left over.

Sixth level he goes swashbuckler again, gains 1/4 from his INT and 1/4 from his class, and is now at a full new skill selection, with none left over.

...

Anyway, this is not a pretty system because of the fractions, but it's working very well and my group really likes it, so I'm making a tweak to switch from fractions to simply use "training" points this weekend when we start up again:

2 skills: 1 training point per level

4 skills: 2 training points per level

6 skills: 3 training points per level

8 skills: 4 training points per level

INT bonus: 1 training point per +1 INT mod bonus

and you need to accumulate eight points to purchase a new skill selection...or with our alternate "1/2 selection for a class skill at CC level" you can spend four points to snag a 1/2 class skill.

[Arne Schmidt]

DeadDMWalking wrote:

Part of the problem is that the increase is automatic once you choose the skill. Thus, if you play a character that wants to pick skills based on what you've done over the last level, if you choose swim once to represent your recent training, even though you travel to the arid desert of Neveranywaterever, you continue to gain ability in swimming. Now, I do like a system where the characters aren't penalized because they put a few ranks in swim back when they thought they were going to be spending their adventuring career on the open ocean, but once that situation changes, their ability to allocate those skills should change also. Now, 3.5 isn't perfect, since you can't 'get the skill points...

I see where you're coming from here, but I have the reverse feeling about this issue, I like the fact that a high level character is capable of mastering new skills, which for anyone but a high-skill class is virtually impossible in 3.5. Let's say at 12th level the 3.5 OGL campaign suddenly becomes very water focused and the unskilled fighter wants to master swimming (ignoring the magic available to do it for him, he wants the skill). It is literally impossible for the fighter to ever master swimming based on his class skill points alone. Even with a +1 Int or +1 human bonus he must spend all of his skill points for the rest of his career before he can master swimming (at 20th level). It stretches believability to me that a high level character is so much hampered in this way. They should be able to pick up new skills far more quickly than the skill point system (or any variation I've seen yet) will ever allow it. These are epic heroes and if they don't accurately predict which skills will be most important in late game they have no real recourse (other than magic items, bleck) to allow them to become skilled. Under the Alpha system that fighter can come up to speed within just a couple of levels.

If instant mastery is a concern because it is non-simulationist, then simply add a one level delay between purchasing the skill and full class-skill bonuses. That is at the level of purchase they get cross-class bonuses, next level class skill bonuses. I would label this skill (tc) for temporary class skill. Next level a (tc) becomes a (c).

I think the Alpha system still has some serious problems (giving away to many skills, front loading skill classes, lack of dabbling, etc), but this isn't one of them to me.

[Teiran]

Okay, there are a ton of responces to this thread, so if my ideas have been repeated elsewhere I apologize.

Basicly, my vote is to keep the current skill system with only a few small changes.

The most important things it to keep the skill rank system. If you change that, you're changing too much. A Lot of the flexibility of the 3.5 skill system comes from these ranks. Changing it into a static bonus makes it too close to 4E, and that's coming from a 4E convert!

The changes I think make sense:

1. Combine a few skills. Things like Move Silently and Hide should become Stealth, and Spot and Listen (but not search!) become Percetion. Right now I think there may be too many skills being combined. Don't combind skills which have different stat bonuses, that will cause too many difficulties when it comes tp updating monster stats.

Increase the number of skill points everyone receives by two points. Yes, this dilutes the rogue and bard a bit, but they are very getting nice upgrades in other places. The classes which receive only 2 points per level in 3.5 simply don't have enough to do intresting things, and this way you don't have to worry about giving out new skills at higher levels.

Give DM's a easy way to build monsters. Build all standard monsters so that they take their skills at full ranks, never partial ranks. Give a quick refernce chart which shows the max ranks at each level, so that when we add 8 levels of ranger to a troll, we just have to add eight to each ranger skill the troll already has and take the rest at max ranks for a level 8 ranger.

This system is very backwards compatable, because existing monster descriptions don't need to change.

[Set]

Teiran wrote:

1. Combine a few skills. Things like Move Silently and Hide should become Stealth, and Spot and Listen (but not search!) become Percetion. Right now I think there may be too many skills being combined. Don't combind skills which have different stat bonuses, that will cause too many difficulties when it comes tp updating monster stats.

My preferences are;

Listen + Spot (not Search, as you say) = Notice.
Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Disable Device + Open Locks = Disable Device
Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics

Leave Climb, Jump, Swim, etc. all as solo skills.

Keep Craft and Profession.

Maybe dump Use Rope, maybe not, it really doesn't matter to me that much.

Teiran wrote:

Increase the number of skill points everyone receives by two points. Yes, this dilutes the rogue and bard a bit, but they are very getting nice upgrades in other places. The classes which receive only 2 points per level in 3.5 simply don't have enough to do intresting things, and this way you don't have to worry about giving out new skills at higher levels.

The Bard and Rogue are benefitting the most from skill consolidation, IMO. I'd leave the classes that get 4, 6 or 8 skill points alone, but increase the minimum to 4, so that Clerics, Fighters, Wizards, etc. would get 4+Int mod skill points / level.

Especially in light of skill consolidation, Bards and Rogues don't really need the extra 2 SP anyway. They are doing okay.

Teiran wrote:

Give DM's a easy way to build monsters. Build all standard monsters so that they take their skills at full ranks, never partial ranks. Give a quick refernce chart which shows the max ranks at each level, so that when we add 8 levels of ranger to a troll, we just have to add eight to each ranger skill the troll already has and take the rest at max ranks for a level 8 ranger.

Include a sentence in the beginning encouraging DMs to just take the number of skill points a monster gets per HD and max out that number of it's 'class skills.'

Bang, easy monster generation. The Tiger only gets 1 skill point / HD (after it's Int penalty)? Alternate between Notice and Stealth, the only two skills it really needs anyway.

The various 'monster classes' could probably to be tweaked around as well. Is there some pressing need for Outsiders to get 10 skill points per HD? That seems kinda high...

[DMFTodd]

Teiran wrote:

1. Combine a few skills. Things like Move Silently and Hide should become Stealth, and Spot and Listen (but not search!) become Perception. Right now I think there may be too many skills being combined.

I concur. The more we combine, the more backwards-compatible problem we have. Move Silent/Hide and Spot/Listen are awkward skills - which one do you use when? Combining them makes sense to make the game run smoother.

I don't see any problem being solved by combining, say, Bluff & Sense Motive, so why do it?

I think a few more skill points are a good idea as well. The 2/level classes don't quite have enough.

[Kelynmor]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

4. Hybrid System: In this system, characters would get a number of skill ranks equal to the number of skill choices granted by the Skills chapter of the Pathfinder RPG. Skill ranks granted by the first level of your class must be spent on class skills. Skill ranks granted after first level and those granted by a high Intelligence score at first level could be spent on any skill. Instead of the class skill/cross-class skill distinction, your bonus in a skill would be determined in the following method.

0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = ability modifier + racial modifiers (or modifiers)
1 ranks – Trained: Bonus = 1/2 your character level + modifiers
2 ranks – Skilled: Bonus = your character level + modifiers
3 ranks – Expert: Bonus = your character level + 3 + modifiers
4 ranks – Master: Bonus = your character level +6 + modifiers

There are a few additional rules to go with this. At first level, you can have no skill higher than 2 ranks (or the skilled level). Many of the prestige class requirements would need an alteration to require expert or even master standing in some skills.

My vote is for Hybrid. The more I look at this option, the more it seems to be the best compromise between...

a) the intent of simplifying skill tracking, and...
b) allowing customization for a character

However I would like to propose the following tweaks:

0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = modifiers only
1 rank - Trained: Bonus = 3 + modifiers - - - should be a flat bonus, i.e. you know the absolute basics there is to know about this skill
2 ranks - Skilled: Bonus = 3 + 1/2 your character level (rounded down) + modifiers - - - you now have the confidence needed to challenge yourself with this skill
3 ranks - Expert: Bonus = 3 + your character level + modifiers - - - now you know what you're doing and, typically, the best way to go about doing it
4 ranks - Master: Bonus = 8 + your character level + modifiers - - - you have been using this skill most of your life and have studied or experienced practically every nuance possible, very few people could be better than you

Two extra rules to go along:

• cross-class skills should never go higher than Skilled (rank 2)
• Master rank should only be achievable and retainable for class skills of the highest level class (or combination of classes if it is a class skill for more than one class) a character has, or on a prestige class skill list.

Advancing: characters should gain a number of skill ranks equal to 2 + int mod every even level.
Multi-classing: characters should get a number of bonus skill ranks equal to half of the new class' starting skill ranks.

With these thoughts in mind, a character could potentially master 5 skills on a class list, not including starting skills or bonuses from high Int. It also makes it important what class(es) a character stays in to master any skills while at the same time mitigating what class to take at 1st level.

For the rogues-should-have-silly-amounts-of-skills purists, add to rogues a class ability "Skilled: starting at 3rd level and every odd level thereafter rogues gain an additional skill rank." Alternatively, instead of 2 + int mod every even level change that to half of the highest level class' starting skill ranks + int mod every even level.

In general, I feel that the hybrid skill system should please the most people for ease of use and customizing a character.

~Kel

[DeadDMWalking]

Personally, I'm hoping that we as posters do a better job with the next release. I assume we're going to be starting all over. I do regret the proliferation of threads that seem to offer little more than 'my thoughts on x'. I certainly hope that we can keep more of the threads focused with a strong emphasis on including page numbers in the thread title.

What I'd really like now is a new 'summation' of what are considered options now. When we're talking now, it seems like we're often talking at cross-purposes. It's hard to remember who is talking about 3.5 as it stands or Pathfinder Alpha as it was presented (which is supposed to change) or one of the options that have been laid out. I hate to start a new thread to do that, but I thought I would put it out there.

[fliprushman]

I agree DeadDMWalking. We do we stand right now? Which option(s) are we taking to the next level?

[seekerofshadowlight]

I also agree with DeadDMWalking a run down of how the options now stand would be great and us as poster must try not to go overbored this next time.

[fliprushman]

Oh something to keep in mind while we discuss Skills. Pg. 62 of the PHB. Bottom of that page, little thing entitled: "Character Skills"

[Psychic_Robot]

I love the current Pathfinder setup--it's easy and intuitive, and it allows fighters to be good at things. One thing I might change is the addition of extra skills due to multiclassing, which would allow characters not to have to start their first level as a rogue. You could have something like, "When multiclassing into a class that has more starting skills than your first-level class, you immediately become trained in a number of skills equal to one-half the new class's base 1st-level skill choices. For instance, a fighter multiclassing into rogue would immediately gain an additional four trained skills; a wizard multiclassing into ranger [theoretically here, as the fighter, wizard, and cleric only get two skills] would get an additional three trained skills. You can get this bonus to your number of trained skills only once--a fighter multiclassing into ranger and then into rogue would only get a total of +3 trained skills, not +7."

[DracoDruid]

Ok. From what I have seen, there are two major concerns about the original skill point system:

1) The cherrypick problem relating to the x4 at 1st level, and

2) The micro-management with skill points, class ranks, cross-class ranks, etc.

While the Pathfinder system might solve those issues and be easy to use, there are some problems I see in using it.

1) In granting an additional FULL skill at every second level, a major break in the often quoted "backward compability" exists. I will not refer to this point further, you all know what I mean.

2) It is rather unrealistic under this system when learning a new skill. Because they are automaticly bumped up according to character level.

Therefore, I would like to present one minor variant and one system (both skill point) that are still near to the original rules but also might also be improvements on playability.

The Variant
In order to prevent cherrypicking it would be a solution to give the x4 skill point multiplier on every 1st CLASS level instead of only the 1st character level. That way, it won't matter in which class to start a multiclass career.
While simple, I don't really like this option, since it still got the other flaw of micro-management.

That's were my system would come to use:
Under this system, the characters would still get improved skill abilities, but the option of improving some skills at a lower degree and without the unrealistic touch of automatic skill mastery on higher levels.

The System
1) Every class gets a list of favored skills and a specific number of skill points each level (depending on the number of total skills!)

2) A skill point may be spend in any existing skill to a total maximum of the characters level (on a 1on1 basis).

3) If the character chooses a favored skill (of ANY of his classes!), he immediatly gains a +3 class bonus for that specific skill (class bonuses do NOT stack!).
(+3 chosen for compability. But might be +4 or +5 too)

4) If a non-favored skill later becomes a favored skill due to multiclassing, the character automaticly receaves the +3 class bonus for any of these skills, he got at least one rank in.
(might consider improving one such skill per new level or something)

5) The feat Skill Training may be taken multiple times, granting an additional skill point per character level (retroactive too!)
(Since this could mean one more skill at full level, it's a middle way between the original rules (no additional skills) and the Pathfinders way)

I don't know if I forgot anything fundamental, but the main rules are there.
So, what do you think?

[Plognark]

Psychic_Robot wrote:

I love the current Pathfinder setup--it's easy and intuitive, and it allows fighters to be good at things. One thing I might change is the addition of extra skills due to multiclassing, which would allow characters not to have to start their first level as a rogue. You could have something like, "When multiclassing into a class that has more starting skills than your first-level class, you immediately become trained in a number of skills equal to one-half the new class's base 1st-level skill choices. For instance, a fighter multiclassing into rogue would immediately gain an additional four trained skills; a wizard multiclassing into ranger [theoretically here, as the fighter, wizard, and cleric only get two skills] would get an additional three trained skills. You can get this bonus to your number of trained skills only once--a fighter multiclassing into ranger and then into rogue would only get a total of +3 trained skills, not +7."

I'm going to keep pimping my propossal till I get some more feedback, so here's my thoughts.

It retains the simplicity of the early alpha skill-slot system, gives room for splash skills, and makes prestige class skill points and multi-class skill points relevant again.

Also removes the arbitrary '+1 skill per two level' generic rule and replaces it with something that only requires a minimal increase in math in exchange for differentiation between classes.

[DracoDruid]

I read it in short and must say it's just too complicate, for my point of view. Honestly, I think I didn't even understood it completely...

One thing I never liked at D&D was counting fractions, so I would suggest to use as less as possible, to keep the game fast enough.

I really think, the use of skill points is a nice and easy mechanic to deal with skills. Since it keeps the possibility to either specialize or being Jack-of-all-Trades.

I you take a look at my suggested system above, you'll notice, that there are very few and easy rules needed to make it work.

As I quoted somewhere before:

"Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

[Plognark]

DracoDruid wrote:

I read it in short and must say it's just too complicate, for my point of view. Honestly, I think I didn't even understood it completely...

One thing I never liked at D&D was counting fractions, so I would suggest to use as less as possible, to keep the game fast enough.

I really think, the use of skill points is a nice and easy mechanic to deal with skills. Since it keeps the possibility to either specialize or being Jack-of-all-Trades.

I you take a look at my suggested system above, you'll notice, that there are very few and easy rules needed to make it work.

As I quoted somewhere before:

"Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Ok, I should probably re-write it; as it is now, I'm not using fractions, I'm just writing up the fractions to show the base mechanics behind it and how we came up with the system.

Here it is in a nutshell:

At first level, use the existing Alpha 1.0 rules: each skill 'point' per class and INT mod (and human) is a skill slot to select.

Additionally, you can take a skill slot and purchase two class skills at the lower CC rating. True CC skills still cost one full selection.

As you advance, you earn training points. Eight training points lets you buy a new skill. Four training points would let you purchase a new class skill at the lower CC rating, or upgrade a CC rated class skill to full.

You earn training points in the following way:

+1 per INT mod per level

+1 for being human

Class with 2 skill per level: 1 training point

Class with 4 skill per level: 2 training points

Class with 6 skill per level: 3 training points

Class with 8 skill per level: 4 training points

It may be necessary to reduce the INT mod and human bonus to every other level to keep it balanced.

Instead of juggling points, with this method you accumulate training points till you can buy a new skill selection. All you need to do is count off to eight, then take a new skill. It keeps the simplicity of the Alpha no-skill-point system, but keeps some relevance for later multiclass and prestige class skill points.

[Psychic_Robot]

Meh. I'm pro +1 skill per two levels because low skill-point characters can have a decent array of skills at level 20. In my mind, realism gets to take a backseat in this case.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Psychic_Robot wrote:

Meh. I'm pro +1 skill per two levels because low skill-point characters can have a decent array of skills at level 20. In my mind, realism gets to take a backseat in this case.

Preach it brother

[Plognark]

Psychic_Robot wrote:

Meh. I'm pro +1 skill per two levels because low skill-point characters can have a decent array of skills at level 20. In my mind, realism gets to take a backseat in this case.

Kind of hoses high skill point characters as levels progress though, doesn't it?

Wizards and pure combat characters already have their own focus, don't completely nerf the skill based classes just because you'd like your character to have more skills later.

[Psychic_Robot]

Plognark wrote:

Psychic_Robot wrote:

Meh. I'm pro +1 skill per two levels because low skill-point characters can have a decent array of skills at level 20. In my mind, realism gets to take a backseat in this case.

Kind of hoses high skill point characters as levels progress though, doesn't it?

Wizards and pure combat characters already have their own focus, don't completely nerf the skill based classes just because you'd like your character to have more skills later.

Nah. Those other classes still probably have to take cross-class skills to get the most useful skills. Besides, it's not a nerf to the skill-based classes--it's a boost to the non-skill based classes. And I'm okay with that because fighters should be able to do things.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Plognark wrote:

Psychic_Robot wrote:

Meh. I'm pro +1 skill per two levels because low skill-point characters can have a decent array of skills at level 20. In my mind, realism gets to take a backseat in this case.

Kind of hoses high skill point characters as levels progress though, doesn't it?

not a bit human int of lets say 18 that +4+1=+5

low to high end
fighter 2 skills+4 for int +1per human +10 for 20th level=17 skills
well over half being cross skills at a +0 mod that would be +23 and +13
most being +13

rogue 8 skills +4 for int +1 per human +10 for 20th level=23 almost all being class skills that be +23 and maybe a +13

thats still 6 more skills then anyone and almost all 10 points higher.

[DracoDruid]

Plognark wrote:

Psychic_Robot wrote:

Meh. I'm pro +1 skill per two levels because low skill-point characters can have a decent array of skills at level 20. In my mind, realism gets to take a backseat in this case.

Kind of hoses high skill point characters as levels progress though, doesn't it?

Wizards and pure combat characters already have their own focus, don't completely nerf the skill based classes just because you'd like your character to have more skills later.

AMEN!

[Psychic_Robot]

I too would like to see an end to skill synergies. That system is a convoluted mess.

[DracoDruid]

Psychic_Robot wrote:

I too would like to see an end to skill synergies. That system is a convoluted mess.

And an AMEN to you!

[Plognark]

Psychic_Robot wrote:

I too would like to see an end to skill synergies. That system is a convoluted mess.

I don't agree with the 1 skill per 2 universal rule, but I cannot agree with you strongly enough on this topic.

Skill synergies are an arbitrary mess and a nightmare for DM's to calculate.

DOWN WITH STATIC SKILL SYNERGIES!!

[DracoDruid]

Be honest. You just want an AMEN too, right?
.
.
.
.
Ok, here you go. AMEN, Brother!
(And it's all for yourself. Isn't that nice?)

[Plognark]

DracoDruid wrote:

Be honest. You just want an AMEN too, right?

.
.
.
.
Ok, here you go. AMEN, Brother!
(And it's all for yourself. Isn't that nice?)

Did we have some replies get eaten here?

[Mosaic]

DeadDMWalking wrote:

What I'd really like now is a new 'summation' of what are considered options now.

I just posted my "plan" to your Alternate Skill Systems (complete) thread. It's an amalgam of the Epic Meepo stuff (which needed to get codified somewhere anyway), some of your stuff about no x4 at 1st level, a great idea on reviving synergies without the headaches by Lordzack, plus my current consolidated skills list.

[Taluron]

Haven't stated much since the beginning.

Don't combine skills with different stats.
(ie Search separate from Perception=Spot+Listen
Too hard to back date otherwise.

Skill Synergies. If you up the skill points loose 'em.

I wish to retain skill points, you lose to much personalization with flat-bed skills.

[EL]

DeadDMWalking wrote:

Wierd. I posted this and it appeared as the last post on page 7. This could become a double post when the boards finish hiccupping.

All in all, not a bad system, Nyco, but not for me.

The various 'SAGA style' systems all have less customization than skills. I feel like a bunch of people are telling me that we should drop pennies. They cost more to produce than they are worth, and nothing in the economy is affected if you round to the nearest .05

I want to keep pennies. I want to keep the smallest possible unit of skill currency so we can spend our $1.25 however we want. If that is 12 skills with 10 ranks and 1 with 5, or 5 skills with 24 ranks (at 21st level, of course) I'm fine with that. I like a choice, and I like the widest possible range of choices.

I'm right there with you. I really don't see the 3.5 skill system as broken. Everyone seems to think it takes to long to roll up characters but I've never had an issue as to me it is time well spent. Seems like all you have to do to fix that is reduce the cost of cross class skills to 1 and give less skill ranks per class.

I'm just not seeing the big problem.

[DracoDruid]

I would put an AMEN in here, but I seem to have misplaced it somewhere...

[Mace Hammerhand]

Whew...many pages, and to be honest I merely skimmed through the last couple, so forgive me if I say something that has been said before, other than that EpicMeepo's system is the most elegant one.

I don't like the alpha 1 approach to skills, it leaves far too little room for personlization, which in turn makes characters less unique.

Second, taking my cues from d6 StarWars from WEG, some skills should be in every skill list: perception, diplomacy (or the amalgam).

The reasons for this are twofold:

-everybody notices stuff, or can notice stuff rather. If a warrior wears a helmet his hearing will be impaired, which can be adjusted, if one wants to go for deep realism.
-everybody can talk to someone. If their charisma is overshadowed by that of a teapot they will not have much luck, but that is their preference.

The switch from having a CC skill become a regular class skill and stay that way is somewhat realistic. If one has an interest in meditation, for example, but doesn't have the time to do it properly due to his daytime job (or whatever), he can read all he wants about the topic, but he will never be as adept at the thing, than, say, a professional (for lack of a better term!). If he turns "professional" and now does have the time to perform the skill he has read so much about, the step to pro will, naturally, be easy since he already has the knowledge.

[Anry]

An update on the current status of the skill system would be good.

I'm still gunning for the hybrid myself.

I'll have to go back and try and find Meepo's though. As I just keep hearing about it...

[Stahlfaust]

I also think Hybrid would be best choice.

[roguerouge]

The old skills system wasn't broken and it was an absolute favorite for a subset of players who like to customize their skill monkeys. I recommend fixing the obvious issue of overlapping skills (Move silently/hide, spot/listen) and skills with extremely limited use value (balance, use rope, etc.) Don't overhaul what just needs a tweak, fellas. My girlfriend will never buy into a system that removes skill choices from character building. And skills were the easy part for DMs: just pick a suite of skills to max out and a suite of skills to half max out and you're done.

Put me down for: What's the big deal here? Skills were never a big problem with 3x.