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-The Gneech
Oddly I'm reminded of d20 Advanced Magic that was create just before Guardians of Order folded. That product proposed a system where any character could learn a few simple spells.
Epic Meepo is correct that there are already feats in Complete Arcane that do just this, and a bit more.
However I do have to agree that the Bard is roguish arcane dabbler, an Arcane Expert if you will. It would be better to see a optional path for bards to return to the prepared casting they had in 2nd Edition in exchange for access to a wider selection of spells and no limits on how many they can learn.
A question is should these be Spells (requiring material components and so on) or Spell-like Abilities? Should the choice of spells be narrower? Some questions to keep an eye on while play testing.
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This was one thing I read that I absolutely did NOT like. Spell like ability for a Rogue just feels very odd to me. I vote to remove it.
Having said that, it is true that, since it's just one option in the list of tricks a Rogue can learn, I can always just rule that the spell ability is NOT on the list in my games, so it's not a huge issue I guess.
I still must say though that I ABSOLUTELY don't like it.
Other than the elimination of spell points, this is one of the few things I really don't like in an otherwise fantastic first draft!
I think the option for minor magic fits the rogue concept well. Since the thief class was introduced, he's always had the ability to "fake it" when it comes to magic -- hence, the ability to read magical scrolls. It's not like the rogue will overshadow any other class in terms of magic use -- not even the bard. It's just a bit of flavor, and a welcome one from where I'm standing.
I think the solution to the 1st level dip problem is to eliminate the skill monkey concept. Have the rogue have less skill points and other classes have more and have all classes share ability out side of combat.
I think the solution to the 1st level dip problem is to eliminate the skill monkey concept. Have the rogue have less skill points and other classes have more and have all classes share ability out side of combat.
In other words, phase out the rogue completely? Interesting concept... Because a rogue is a skill monkey. Everything else (sneak attack, trapsense, etc.) is just icing on that.
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I like it. Back in 1.75e, I played a modified (with the DM's assistance and approval) Thief-Acrobat that could cast cantrips. Never much of an impact, but it was quite flavorful and fit with the characer's background. Loved playing that character. All I need now is a Paizo-fied hengeyoukai character race and I can bring 'er back. Please Paizo, answer my prayers... :)
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However I do have to agree that the Bard is roguish arcane dabbler, an Arcane Expert if you will. It would be better to see a optional path for bards to return to the prepared casting they had in 2nd Edition in exchange for access to a wider selection of spells and no limits on how many they can learn.
I have an Aristocrat variant that is a Bard mechanically, but uses inspiring oratory instead of music, drops all spells and class abilities based on song, music or sound, and uses prepared casting from a small spellbook instead of spontaneous casting.
Nobles like to edumacate their chidren, and send them to tutors who give them a basis in many skills, including arcane skills, as well as swordplay, light armored fighting, inspiring the hoi-polloi to greater efforts on behalf of their betters, etc. These well-educated scions end up being this variant Bard.
A question is should these be Spells (requiring material components and so on) or Spell-like Abilities? Should the choice of spells be narrower?
Definitely spells. Having PCs with spells as SLAs just causes problems, as the spell list available to them has to be minutely examined for possible exploits. Easier to just have them cast spells like everyone else, as it wouldn't make sense for them to be *better* at spellcasting than actual Wizards!
I used a narrower spell list, quite similar to the Bard list, but without the heavy sonic/song/music focus (actually more like the Beguiler spell list, lots of mind-affecting stuff), but it wouldn't be strictly necessary. Flashy evocations might be less appropriate, thematically, but there is plenty of precedent for other spells to be added to the list, perhaps through a sort of Advanced Learning feature. (To allow one to simulate the corrupt nobleman who reads forbidden texts and begins to dabble in the dark arts of necromancy, even if they aren't typical 'Bard' spells.)
one additional vote for rogues without spells / spell-like abilities...
I like it. A lot.
What people don't really get is that in 3.5, rogues already have a few magical tricks up their sleeves. They get Use Magic Device and trapfinding. Trapfinding lets them find them <i>magical</i> traps. Letting a rogue who wants to have a couple of SLAs fits right in, in my opinion.
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Again, I vote for no spells with the Rogue. Even minor ones such as those offered. Sure, it's balanced (probably underpowered personally, why would I ever want a 0 level or even 1st level spell over a free feat like Weapon Finesse?), but it just doesn't fit.
People are right, rogues will try to even the playing field and use magic. That's why they've always had Use Magic Device, and could read off scrolls, wands, etc. Being able to innately cast magic? That's better left with multi-classing to a sorcerer.
With Use Magic Deviced, Rogue are already able to cast spells from scrolls.. so it's not a big stretch of the imagination for them to be able to cast low-level spells...
The only thing I would change is that Rogue must be Trained in Use Magical Device as a requirement to take these abilities (minor and Major Magic).
I would guess like bard casting but once a day. no spell book needed
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The only thing I would change is that Rogue must be Trained in Use Magical Device as a requirement to take these abilities (minor and Major Magic).
Makes sense to me.
I like it as an option. As others have said, it goes with Use Magical Device and other tricks rogues pick up.
The nice thing is that it is totally removable if you don't like it, and that seems to me to be the key to so many of Pathfinder's changes, they're options.
I understand the concept behind giving spellcasting options to the Rogues, but I can see some unfairness with other classes. I think it should stay, maybe with minor adjustements.
FEAT?
If minor magic and major magic where feats, the Rogue could have those two feats as bonus feat in the list of rogue talents. The feats can be taken normally by any other class to get a small knowledge of magic. It even makes sense for a Human to take minor magic as a bonus feat at 1st-level.
SPELL LIST?
Instead of giving the ability to actually cast spells, Minor Magic gives a spell list. Use Magic Device being a class skill for Rogues, it makes sense for them to know how to activate low-level wands and scrolls. The spell lists don't have to be the complete sorcerer/wizard spell list, just maybe the 0-level and 1st-level (or a complete new spell list). Or maybe it's just a big boost to the Use Magic Device check for low-level scrolls and wands (to make success a sure thing).
ARCANE & DIVINE?
Why restrict Rogues to arcane magic? Minor magic and Major magic could be a choice of spells from the sorcerer/wizard, or cleric, or druid, depending on the theme of your Rogue. It makes sense for a Rogue (assassin) to cast Inflict on his target.
To me the Rogue Talent that allows a single 0-level or a single 1st level spell is a good idea for the Grey Mouser inspired rogue or for one based off Silk from the Belgariad.
I have seen a good number of people complaining they dont want to play a rogue that casts spells whether they are trickery, utility or combat. It comes to this...if you dont want that option then dont take it when your character gains a new talent. But leave the option in there for those of us who do want to take a paltry spell or two.
As regards "then multiclass". I personally dislike that mentality of hodgepdoging your character just to get a very minor aspect you would like. There is nothing stopping any one from taking a feat that grants a bonus to commonly rogue doman skills or from taking combat feats that are usually the perview of fighter. So why should spellcasters'areas be sacrosanct? I dont think they should. FOr this reason i enjoyed the feats in various 3.5 books (races of faerun, liber mortis and others) that granted minor magical abilities and by minor i mean usually it was a list of 3-4 0-level spells and you could only use the ability once or twice per day (not each spell once per day).
-Weylin Stormcrowe