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In an other thread I suggested spells be per encounter rather than per day for that exact reason.
An encounter is to be designed upon the assumption that PCs have access to all of their abilities. So turn that around in actual play and make it so.
If a DM wants to weaken a party before the BBEG part just have the two encounters combine as one. Stretch it out over initiative to keep it all one encounter.
Some have said that is too much of an increase in power, but in all honesty I don't see that at all.
What is different between making it encounter based and per day based where the PCs retreat after every 2-3 encounters to come back all fresh and smelling clean?
Nothing really, and it is more fun.
Doing away with spells-per-day would be (in my opinion) absolutely awesome. Now, how to actually do it...
It would be tricky to come up with a non-Vancian magic system while still retaining the backward compatability and 'feel' of D&D. Maybe as an variant system, or even an alternate casting class (like what the Sorcercer should have been) that does not use spells-per-day. That would let people who like the Old Ways to remain on that path, while others (myself included) toss that particular sacred cow on the grill.
Again though, the first step is to create such a system in the first place. Of all the existing tries (ie. fatigue based like True20, damage-inflicing like d20 Star Wars, etc.) what would serve as the best starting point? (And keep in mind that Spell Points are just a slightly more abstract way of doing spells-per-day, unless of course the spell points refresh on a faster scale).
PS: I'm also a big fan of druid's using Shapeshift rather than Wildshape, and even the PHB2 rage variant. Both of these get rid of an artificial "per day" restriction - which is a good design principal in general I think.
...is still a problem.
For me, this was rarely to never a problem. When it was, the solution was to put the players on the clock.
Something like reserve feats to make nuissance encounters less draining and let wizards feel they are contributing when they don't want to pull out "the big guns" would not be unwelcome, though. Trying to change to 4e "per encounter" wholesale, on the other hand, would be. I consider the "immediate power versus long term power" aspect that existed from 1e-3e to be a fundamentally viable balancing strategy.
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Please, no per encounter powers or mechanics. It's one of the points I dislike the most in 4E.
Re-hauling the vancian slot system is quite a feat, but it could be done mantaining the backwards compatibility.
Using the flexible slot rules (and the spell templates) from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved is a big step forward.
Also I tried a house rule to give further "magical stamina" to magic users (but it requires a more detailed system than the basic HPs value, such as the vitality/wounds system from UA): casters can sacrifice half their wounds value, with all the penalites associated, to gain a number of slots of the higher spell level available to them multiplied by their INT/WIS/CHA modifier.
This means also that, along the aforementioned spell slot flexibility, a spellcaster can refill part of his magical prowess (both high, medium and low level) at a hefty cost - something that balances it out.
My attempt to (partially) solve this problem can be found on this thread as a new spellcasting system.
In short, I use the Spell Point system to increase the number of high level spells available to one character in a day, while simultaneously limiting the number of spells available during one fight. It's my hope that this will allow characters to take on more fights before feeling spent, without increasing their overall power level.
I am NOT suggesting that this be made part of PFRPG, since it would mess with compatibility (though maybe not more than some other things do), but I think it may work for helping fix the 15-minute workday.
I'm personally kind of fond of the fire-and-forget spell-per-day system. I've no real reason for that other than nostalgia.
One house rule I'm implementing is to remove the need for eight hours of sleep before relearning spells. It always seemed kind of a pain in the ass to me and mostly an excuse for wizards to not have to stand watches at night.
I was still going to set the limit of spells per day, but it wouldn't be too hard to get rid of that too if you wanted to and just require your wizard to whip out his spellbook and make the party wait the fifteen minutes it would take him to rememorize them.
I would imagine that would play a lot like 'per encounter', but it would keep the flavor of the Vancian magic and require some level of tactical consideration about where the party will hide out in the dungeon while they wait.
Clerics could likewise be freed from the requirement to pray at specific times during the day and, as long as the party was willing to wait for him to complete his prayers, could relearn his spells any time he wanted to.
Perhaps my style of play is less suited to butting heads with the current situation, but I've never really had this problem. In my case, the situation tends to break down like this:
Dungeon crawl: "Call it a day? And let the icky things reinforce this place? Are you crazy?" or "You know someone else could come along and grab all the loot, right?"
Wilderness travel/City adventure: To me, most of the time more than one combat encounter in a day seems a little silly.
Put me in the column of people who don't find the so-called 15 minute adventuring day a problem. Indeed, for me, it's a feature of D&D and always has been. More to the point, v.3.5 is structured around it and, unless Paizo didn't really mean it when they said they wanted Pathfinder to be backward compatible, making the changes necessary to "fix" it would be difficult.
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Re: recharge mechanic.
I would suggest something along the lines of restoring mem'ed spells at something easy. Maybe 1 min/spell cast. Replacing something in your list should be harder. Maybe 1 min/level. This would mean a high level character could keep rolling at full power most of the time, but would still have to conserve and be strategic with spells when in a hurry. Hell, maybe your wizard needs to get back that horrid wilting and the party has to guard him for a minute. This would probably require some concentration checks....
That's my 2 bits.
Edit: I'm not saying this as a problem for me. I love the attrition of spells over an adventuring day. This is just a solution that might or might not work.
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I think maybe you could combine the wizard's selection of spells and the sorcerer cast per day. The wizard can select a number of spells in the morning and then each spell level has a number of uses per day.
So a 3rd level wizard could memorized 4 0 level spells and use those spells 6 times per day and 2 1 level spells 4 times per day and so forth.
So a wizard can memorized his allotted spells and cast and of them that number +2.
This way the wizard keeps his versatility but can still stay in a fight longer.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Colour me one who likes the system just as it is, and has never had a problem with it.
When I play psionic characters, I normally look at my reserve and divide by 5, holding one point in reserve. The psionic feats do help at lower levels, either by maneuverability (speed of thought) or making that first punch count for more (psionic shot). At higher levels, I increased my durability by not going nova and letting skill points help by knowing what power to use where. That said, no one novas like a psion.
When I play arcane casters, I'll use the same kind of tactics, relying on a mix of spells to carry the day, and some creative use of bluff (or sharp-pointy-thing if I'm playing a bard/battle sorcerer/cleric/druid).
This is a bit less of a problem in Pathfinder Alpha. The Sorcerer and Wizard have d6, and the Bard and Rogue have d8. so there are more HP all 'round. When you add in the favoured class schtick and feats like Toughness, they party will have more hitpoints, so soaking damage won't be as bad. Joe mage may want to take that quarterstaff and thwack the goblin on the head, now that he has 6+ HP at first level.
The tactical as[ects of the 1x-3x casting are part of what makes D&D D&D, and I'd hate to lose those in Pathfinder
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I am not convinced that this is still a problem. Not only does a wizard have several 0 level spells that they can cast at will but they also have the option of specializing in a school and gaining another spell that it appears they can cast as a standard action an unlimited number of times per day at 1st level. Several of these spells are damaging spells, with damage that goes up as the character gains levels. Between these two abilities a smart wizard should be able to handle most monsters, especially at low levels, without needing to expend more than one or two of his or her Fire and Forget spells per encounter. It requires a little creativity and tactical thinking, but I like it.
Any further alteration risks damaging the backwards compatibility of the magic system.
Any further alteration risks damaging the backwards compatibility of the magic system.
Ok, I realize me saying that its not a problem for me doesn't help the people it is a problem for, but I would like to draw your attention to the above quote. So far, any and all proposed solutions to the 15 minute adventuring day issue involve the sort of changes (like per encounter abilities) that begin to radically undermine the math of the system, leading to a game that is increasingly less backward compatible.
Ultimately, I think those who feel that the current "adventure day" is still a problem with the at-will abilities of the casters (and reserve feats, for that matter) will be best served by either 4th ed, another system altogether, or house rules. Anything else will change what Pathfinder is supposed to be too much, IMHO.
Reserve feats and the like are already part of 3e.
But they are not open content. Paizo would need to create their own version of reserve feats to do this, which is admittedly a possibility, but I think they'd be wiser to avoid introducing too many new rules into Pathfinder except where absolutely necessary. I'm far from convinced that this is such a case.
The new rules for clerics (with turn undead healing living creatures) still allows them to be effective at reduced spell capacity and prevents the need to dump spells for healing.
So, the 15 minute adventuring day really only affect wizards. The new rules help, but I think what might be a better option is to either allow the new at will abilities of the wizard to scale better (allowing for more usefulness at higher levels) or to add an additional at will ability at the higher levels.
Frankly, a 20th level wizard doing 1d6+10 acid damage is not that useful at higher levels. The wizard would be better off using magic missile (which averages 17 points of damage to 13 points)
A compromise would be to create feats (that a wizard can take from his bonus feats) that can improve the new at will abilities.
A compromise would be to create feats (that a wizard can take from his bonus feats) that can improve the new at will abilities.
That's not a bad idea.
Please keep the vancian spell system.
It's really good spellcaster have to manage their spells especially at low levels. In the first levels they are just some sort of aprentices.
I've never seen a mage fall back to crosbows or other normal weapons.
It is always spells gone lets rest!!
This will change in the higher levels.
mostly then it is the other way around.
magesa have enough spells but then the fighters have to rest cause they are out of hitpoints
let's keep it as is. just take reserve feats and/or feats to complement combat abilities like weapon focus or the like.
just my 2 cents
Well, that's basically what Monte Cook already does. :)Interesting... I want to contribute to these discussions, but I find for a lot of these issues another source (BOXM, 4E, UA) already has a solution that I wholeheartedly support. Are we trying to reinvent the wheel on everything or is it just unavoidable to tap into What Has Come Before (or, in the case of 4E, What We Know Will Come)?
Yeah, I am finding that many of my suggestions are coming from BOXM and Iron Heroes.
As for Healing, I really have come to like the use of Reserve Points (from Unearthed Arcana). This allows palyers to recover outside of combat while making magical healing in combat important (be it from spells, potions, or wands).
Extra 0-level spells don't really do anything. They certainly don't contribute to combat in any meaningful manner.
Sure they do. They keep that player engaged in the combat. Truth they don't do nearly as much damage as the fighter, but then that's the point of the fighter. Wizards contribute to the party in many ways besides slaying critters, but nobody seems to care that fighters can't dispel magic or detect invisible creatures.
The only problem with the limited spells per day is when the PC runs out and can't contribute to a fight. Unlimited freeze rays, fer instance, may not be the same as a two-handed sword, but they let the player stay involved and that's good enough for me.
I'm one of those that has found the limited spellcasting abilities of a low-level caster to really hurt play. At the same time, I agree that any changes need to be done within the existing system; Vancian casting is an integral part of 3.5E, and needs to remain largely unchanged is backwards compatibility is to be maintained.
The steps that have already been taken look good, and something similar to Reserve Feats would help even further (though they have much more of a sorcerer feel to them than something a wizard might use}, but I still think more can and should be done. Maybe try making the spellbook a larger part of a wizard's class, something that can be used in combat to some extent, in addition to being a place to store spell information?
I would love to see some kind of second wind mechanic to give the PCs a little more healing.
I'm for rules that would support backwards compatability. Changing to a per encounter system or aborting the vancian magic system completely is probably a little extreme, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that.
I only allow my players to change their memorized/prayed-for spells if they rest for the full 8hours. However, I have been allowing for them to recover prepared spells completely of 1st through 9th level with 3hours of rest or very light activity (walking, movement/actions requiring no checks) at a rate of 1 spell level per 20 minutes (0 and 1st come at the same time). Additionally the character takes a -4 initiative penalty during this time and is not privy to listen/spot checks to act in surprise rounds.
For us this simulates the wizard pouring over their spell book and muttering to themselves and getting the spell sequences right again. Sorcerers recovering their inner powers. A bard gently humming to themselves. A cleric focusing on their prayers....etc etc.
This keeps my casters from changing their prep'ed spells on me after every room in a dungeon unless they like spending 8hours to reslot their spells. Additionally it keeps us moving the adventure forward without removing the strategy of what spells are prepared. The initiative and sensory deprivation also makes my players decide when and how long to recover spells. In an urgent situation a caster may be pressed to only partially recover their spells and go in at less than full capacity...but that is part of the fun of the vancian magic system in my opinion.
The 3hr recharge period is still rather long and is not a complete fix for what many would consider the 15min adventure day. Although at low and mid levels the time frame is significantly shorter (1hr 20min for a level 7 wizard would get all your spells back for instance)
Also allowing players to at least move around and not have to set up camp while the casters recharge has been a huge benefit to us. And putting the old fashioned 8hr rest requirement on casters wishing to swap out spells rewards good preparation.
Anywho...just a house rule for me, but if it helps any of you then cool.
There is the Reserve Point System in Unearthed Arcana.
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A simple fix at least it seems simple to me about spells is. Add in a optional mana system. Those that like the current spell system uses it as is. The mana system would not take up much in the book and only add one exter line to each spell to list it's mana cost.
So a wizard would mem spells the same as always but then use mana to fuel which ever spells they wanted. To fight the 15 min adventuring day just let them recover 1 mana point for ever 10/15 mins of rest. that should keep them from fully recharging always but allow for short breaks now and again and keep pushing on into the dungeon. With it being a optional rule it would appease both groups.
I don't like the per day, per encounter, at will set up 4e has. It is one of the things that most bug me about the game.
I would like to see melee classes get power abilities they can take every few levels and have them work like magic. In that they had a end cost and they recover end with resting. No powers to over the top just nice little boosts to give them more options.
I handled this in my game using action points (coupled with action point uses from various sources).
One of the uses was the ability to save a spell just cast, spending a number of action points equal to 1/2 spell level (round up)
So..... I'm a 5th level wizard with 7 Action pointd (5+ 1/2 lvl) who just cast a much needed fireball. As I'm casting the fireball (before determing it's effect) I decide to spend 2 Action points to retain that spell. Fireball goes off and I roll baddly on damage. Luckily, I still have that same fireball i can use again, and if need be...retain by spending two more action points.
The only issue (both good and bad) is that since action points only refresh when a character levels up, it either makes it so that they're only used in extreme dire circumstances early in a level....or near their next level they get blown left and right. Good or bad? That's up to you really.
You could solve that by a mechanism by which AP are regained by doing cool, clever, or useful things, and as a meta game carrot for good habits like genuinely working as a team. That makes the supply less limited by level, involves players more, and keeps your idea.
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I handled this in my game using action points (coupled with action point uses from various sources).
One of the uses was the ability to save a spell just cast, spending a number of action points equal to 1/2 spell level (round up)
I like this! I think action points should have a really good variety of special actions available, so long as they're balanced for their AP cost. I especially like the one to get an extra use of class feature (also feat, for us) that has a limited number of uses per day. This seems like much the same thing, so I'd say it fits.
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I would love to see some kind of second wind mechanic to give the PCs a little more healing.
I almost think that non-magical healing, such as the Paladin's lay on hands, should convert lethal to non-lethal damage rather than outright healing. I know it doesn't seem to make much sense from a strictly mechanics standpoint, but it differentiates magical healing from class abilities, it's still better than healing the same amount of lethal damage with normal rest, and it injects that little element of peril that gets the old heart pumping ;)
Edit: meant to say one of the action point abilities I plan to try is converting hit points equal to CON from lethal to non-lethal as a standard action for 1 AP, in the vein of keeping the PCs going longer than fifteen minutes at a go.
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But for "real" backwards 3.5 compatibility, I think only Reserve Feats are a real option. You change too many assumptions otherwise.
I love Reserve Feats. I wish there were 800,000 more of them. Allowing those as options for the class power slots would make them a lot more customizable yet also (in theory) balanced.
I vote this!
This might sound a bit controversial, or maybe even confrontational, but I hope people will believe me when I say that I don't intend to offend anybody. But basically, and in my personal opinion, the 15 minute adventuring day as I understand it is a symptom of a very narrow playstyle that grew out of the much broader genre "dungeon crawl". Basically, it means that a group of characters will "retire" for the day as soon as they used up all their best "per day" abilities, which usually includes healing, and do so very soon after they started the day.
This, from my point of view, can be overcome by broadening the playstyle of the group as a whole, by adjusting the kinds of challenges, the solutions to the challenges, and in part by changing the attitudes of all players involved as well. I'll try to illustrate what I mean with some examples.
Killing is not always the answer
Not everything in a dungeon is for killing, and not all encounters need to cost daily resources (HPs, spells, etc). Insert encounters that are there to challenge the skills of characters. A tribe of monsters that are not combative, but only demand some form of payment to let people pass through their area, and can be impressed by feats of strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics), or can be negotiated with (Diplomacy). A potential ally that has a quest of his own and needs some answer (Knowledge skills) before he helps the group. Or even frequent Stealth challenges to get past a guardian that is way too strong to confront already. To that, add puzzles that can either be solved by player ingenuity, or a good skill check from some obscure skill combination.
We're on a clock here!
Time's not always a given. A lot of adventures include some sort of time pressure on the characters that simply won't LET them rest after blowing their arsenal after 15 minutes of dungeon crawling. And if you don't have a story hook already, you can create one that puts some pressure on the group easily. Do so in a way that includes action and suspension, and it won't feel like it's forced on the players either. In the end, they might feel a lot prouder for making it out by the skin of their teeth, but MAKING IT, DAMMIT!
So, you want to camp out in the Death Star?
So you're running around in a monster-filled underground labyrinth, where you slaughtered your way through the last few rooms, probably upset the local power structure and raised a lot of alarms, and you really think that camping in an abandoned room and spiking the doors will keep you save for 9 hours at least? Hmmm, any player who actually expects that has some weird expectations, to be honest. Wandering monsters are not just to give a dungeon a semblance of an eco-system...they are there to remind players that their characters are traipsing around a deadly surrounding. And at lower levels, only a Rope Trick will guarantee a safe sleep...getting out of where you set it up afterwards is another matter.
You want to retreat after 4 rooms?
Sure, no problem...don't count on a completely empty retreat path, though. You left corpses behind, made a lot of noise while fighting, and left some open doors as well. This means a) alerted guards from organized monster tribes, b) carrion eaters coming for a sniff, and c) some random monster that always wanted to know what was behind the big locked wooden door. Also, if you didn't destroy them, possibly a self-resetting trap or two. Oh, and by the way, you remember that scrap you found on that corpse, about a healing fountain a little deeper in? Maybe your stabilized but negative-HP friend the rogue would love some of that healing water. ;)
There's a few more suggestions on how to keep characters moving through a dungeon AND having fun doing so. The point is that, in my experience, the 15 minute adventuring day can be countered, or fixed, a lot easier by adjusting and expanding playstyles than by trying to change the rules behind it, simply by involving a lot more into your roleplaying games than running from room to room and slaughtering everything in sight...or by pointing out a few consequences of doing so. People will most likely disagree, and that's okay, since everybody's experience is different, but I think it wouldn't help adjusting the rules to one playstyle that is relatively narrow in scope, just in order to mitigate an effect this one playstyle causes. Every set of rules will, if reduced to one narrow style of play, have very wonky effects, no matter if it works on "per day" abilities for the big guns, or "per encounter", or even "at will". Since Pathfinder wants to keep as much compatibility to 3.5 as possible, it should try to include more advice on broadening the spectrum of activities and challenges in a dungeon instead of trying to take over the job of motivating the players (and characters) to go on from the DM.
Personally, I think this is the best answer to the 15 minute day.
Man, UA is awesome as a tool box to pull from!
Recharge Magic would keep the group going all day long, without futzing with the core Vancian system.
Vecna would be pleased! :P
This might sound a bit controversial, or maybe even confrontational, but I hope people will believe me when I say that I don't intend to offend anybody. But basically, and in my personal opinion, the 15 minute adventuring day as I understand it is a symptom of a very narrow playstyle that grew out of the much broader genre "dungeon crawl". Basically, it means that a group of characters will "retire" for the day as soon as they used up all their best "per day" abilities, which usually includes healing, and do so very soon after they started the day.
This is not always the case, however. As has been noted, the 15-minute work day is most felt at low levels. In my experience it's usually the result of only a single player (usually the arcane caster, but not always), rather than the group, running out of usable abilities. They could concievably continue successfully, but not everyone playing the game is going to enjoy it.
In the case of a sorcerer or wizard, this is extremely disheartening; before mid to high levels, certain circumstances almost guarantee expenditure of spells useful spells. The player is then left with the traditional crossbow. And often such a character's attack bonus is so low, that even moderate rolls aren't enough to hit the broad side of a barn.
The most recent instance of this for me is the opening battle in RotRL: Burnt Offerings. I've spread my meager collection of spells over three fights so far, and still have two left as I start the fourth. But my attack rolls with conventional weapons haven't been good, and I've hit nothing but air with anything other than spells; it's not much fun at all, especially when the other characters are still pounding away.
Personally, I think this is the best answer to the 15 minute day.
Man, UA is awesome as a tool box to pull from!
Recharge Magic would keep the group going all day long, without futzing with the core Vancian system.
Vecna would be pleased! :P
My god, that is quite frankly the best magic system I have ever seen. Not only does it reduce the need to rest after every 2-3 encounters to get spells back, it also reduces the strain on the cleric casting their cure spells, and also makes spellcasters really think during combat.
No longer do they blow through all their spells highest to lowest level and then rest, they really gotta plan ahead on their strategy.
This rule is freakin awesome.
personally I like that a wizard who gets to 5th level gets 1 fireball for the day (OK 2 if they have the int)and they will conserve it to use on the horde of tough bad guys- not just cast in the first room.
A mechanic I am trialing that helps the healing issue is to allow the heal skill to give hit points back. The amount recovered is half the heal skill. If you use a healing kit it takes a full round if not it takes a minute. You can do apply healing to yourself. The limit is that you cannot restore hp above half max. ie if the character has 20hp you can only restore them by this method up to 10. - even monsters can get back to half strength fairly quickly this way.
To assist the wizard - we used a method of letting you spend a few minutes studying your book to 'swap out' a spell for another of the same level (perhaps this could be done at a greater cost to convert low level into high level?.).
Howver I would suggest playtesting the system as written- it may have solved it.
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I think the domain & school abilities handle the low level caster problem nicely. Plus unlimited 0 level spells as well. I know a lot of people including some of my players look at o level spells as worthless, but the right ones can be useful and now that they are at will I think they are more likely to get used instead of " I have guidance one time I want to make it count" mentality. As for those of you who have been talking about higher level casters not being useful after they have burnt through their highest level spells. I don't mean to offend but its time to go back to caster school. There are plenty of low level spells that scale up nicely for higher levels. What about staffs, wands, & scrolls and other miscellaneous magical goodies that should be in any mid to high level casters resources.
Director of Games
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Well, we tried a number of moves to counteract this problem and I am eager to start getting some playtest feedback on how they work. The domains and schools are both designed to give the clerics and wizards a bit more to do, allowing them to choose when to use their spells, instead of being forced to use them because of a lack of options. The turning healing was also designed to alleviate some of this burden.
Give em a try and let me know how they work.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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So, I'm reading the alpha rules now, and I really like what I see. Many of the additions may lessen the issue, but I still don't see a solution for the spellcasters running out of spells before noon, though.
Perhaps an option (feats?) of taking an early withdrawal for the next day's allotment, with the penalty being:
1. No spells for tomorrow, of course, and
2. Loss of spell-casting related ability (Wis, Int, Chr) point(s) for a day.
This could be applied to both divine and arcane magic. Maybe the cleric would pray urgently, or the wizard would pour over his tome, studying intently, or the sorceror would spend time meditating, digging deep down inside his/her soul (or spend X action points, or sacrifice some XP, or <insert option here>) to gain the much-needed spells to overcome adversity.
This way, you CAN get more spells when your party truly needs them, with the further understanding that you had better be finished by tomorrow....and without turning your magic system upside-down.