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From the folks who brought you The Wish and The Word, here is a sampler list of actually broken material from 3.5, which we would hope would be fixed in Pathfinder:
1> More Wishes For reasons defying ready analysis, the 3.5 Wish spell allows you to wish for magic items of unlimited power, with the only caveat being that the XP cost is arbitrarily high. The game also allows people to cast spells with XP costs no matter how high without spending anything at all if they cast them as Spell-like abilities or out of magic items. So if you cast planar binding to call in an Efreet, it is a legal basic wish to request a Staff of Wishes. The XP cost of the wish is over five hundred thousand, but that doesn't matter because neither you nor anyone else actually pays that cost. Breaks game at level 11.
2> Free Vacation on the Negative Energy Plane (no save) The gate spell allows you to call in a specific named individual who is a resident of a plane other than the one you are standing in, and they have to do anything you tell them to (no matter how stupid or dangerous) for 1 round/level. Aside from the basic hilarity of calling in Solars to hand over their sweet loot, you can actually go to other planes of existence and then call in named individuals from your home plane and then kill them. You're a 17th level character and killing a level appropriate challenge is worth more to you than the gate costs; so when you pull in the villain of the adventure and force him to hand roll taquitos for 17 rounds while your entire team beats him mercilessly in the back of the head - you actually make XP (and win the adventure). Breaks game at level 17.
3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And again. And so on. Breaks game at level 9.
4> The Difference Engine Level loss is funny stuff. It sets your XP total to the mid point of your new, lower level. When combined with Lycanthropy (which gives you bonus levels without XP), this can turn into an infinite level engine. Here is how it works: First get bit by a lycanthrope, and fail (voluntarily) your save vs. turning into a badger (or whatever). Your "level" is now 2-8 levels above what it was a few moments ago. Now get punched in the mouth by a Wight, and fail your save against the level loss. Your "level" is one lower than it was a few moments ago, which still puts it at 1-7 levels higher than it was when you started the process, and it gives you XP to match. Now cast break enchantment on yourself and trade those crappy lycanthrope levels in for Cleric levels subject to your current XP total - which means that you are a much higher level Cleric than when you started. Also you aren't a lycanthrope, so you can get bitten and restart the process. It takes a few weeks of downtime to pick up enough levels to fight gods. Note: "The Difference Engine" is also the general term for any loop based on selling and repurchasing stuff for profit, including using the retraining rules to max out all skills by trading out skills at the cross class rate and repurchasing them in-class. Breaks game at level 10.
5> The Shadow over the Sun Did you notice that Shadows create a new Shadow every time they kill "a creature"? That includes peasants, mackerel, squirrels, and even butterflies. Also, they are incorporeal and have a totally arbitrary way of killing people that is almost completely level independent. So if you create and command one Shadow, you can create an arbitrarily large army of the things under chain control that will conquer the entire world. It's not even hard. Breaks game at level 11.
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I'm really not interested in people who want to say "But the DM can override the rules, no DM is going to let you Wish for infinite wishes!" because that's kind of the entire point of this article. This is about addressing actual rules loop holes.
Also, I will note that all of these can be done at much lower levels. For example, you could use lesser planar binding to get a limited wish off a Dao and then cash that in for a planar binding to get an Efreet to grant you a wish to make you win Dungeons and Dragons.
-Frank
1> More Wishes For reasons defying ready analysis, the 3.5 Wish spell allows you to wish for magic items of unlimited power, with the only caveat being that the XP cost is arbitrarily high.
When did they change that?
Anyway, XP costs never were to my liking, so I do hope that they change those spells.
The game also allows people to cast spells with XP costs no matter how high without spending anything at all if they cast them as Spell-like abilities or out of magic items. So if you cast planar binding to call in an Efreet, it is a legal basic wish to request a Staff of Wishes. The XP cost of the wish is over five hundred thousand, but that doesn't matter because neither you nor anyone else actually pays that cost. Breaks game at level 11.
Yeah, it's a problem, but not that bad a problem. The Efreet would still have to agree to go along. And while it doesn't cost him anything to do create that staff, he knows the other guy will profit from it greatly, so you'll offer him quite a bargain.
Remember: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." To break the "rules" like that is quite unreasonable for a lawful creature.
2> Free Vacation on the Negative Energy Plane (no save)
You thought long and hard about this all, didn't you ;-P
3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And again. And so on. Breaks game at level 9.
That's right. But after the first time, a tree drops on you and you die (no save), at least in my games.
4> The Difference Engine
A loophole. One which only works if the DM plays along (i.e. lets you break the game on purpose like this, lets you lose a level of lycanthrope and get a cleric level instead and so on).
I'm really not interested in people who want to say "But the DM can override the rules, no DM is going to let you Wish for infinite wishes!" because that's kind of the entire point of this article. This is about addressing actual rules loop holes.
Unless you want them to take until 2019 to go over the rules with a fine-toothed comb, there will always be loop-holes like this.
I don't say that they shouldn't close the more obvious ones, but something as complex as a roleplaying game, especially a more rules-heavy one like D&D, cannot be free of those loopholes. So your best bet is, and will always be, someone with an actual brain at the table to put a stop to munchkinism.
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to address your issues:
1: More Wishes: First you must enter a contract with the Efreet and perform your part before the wish can be granted. Second, the Efreet is free to say, "No." Third your deity is free to deny the spell. The Efreet is free to give you a Staff of Wishes with 1 charge while the spell requires 3 charges. Or even for giggles and grins the Efreet may give you a Cursed Staff of Wishes (it is still a Staff of Wishes) as it is evil. Like many high level spells, this has the potential to break a game IF the GM allows it o, but there is absolutely no reason of what-so-ever that he HAS to allow it to.
2: Free Vacation. A named, unique NPC does NOT have to respond to your summons unless he wishes to. And he is bound only to aid you, not stand still while you attack him. Now, if you want him to stay around more than one round, assuming he comes for some reason, you must enter a contract with him. Failure to keep that contract on your end frees him to take retribution out on you. This spell doesn't work the way you describe, so it's not broken in the way you describe.
3 Reawakening the Awaken. Wildshape does not change your Type. Therefore Awaken does not work on you as you are not of the Animal Type.
Really none of these are broken. Just read the spells in more detail.
4: The Difference Engine: When you turn into a lycanthrope you are supposed to turn over your sheet to your DM as you become an NPC. And I can only imagine this as a highly hypothetical situation. If the GM allows you to be hit by a WIght, then bitten by a Lyncathrope, then whatever you said, then rinse and repeat, the problem is not with the rules but with the GM. I can create thousands of broken situations like this assuming the DM let me have my way in everything. Which would mean why bother having a DM?
5: Shadow over Sun: You can command a maximum number of undead based upon your level. It doesn't matter how command is established.
Honestly, nothing as described is broken.
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All of these are unbounded power loops. The demonstration of the uncapped nature is merely a demonstration of the fact that they are actually broken. When actually encountered in play they will rarely be used to their fullest (essentially limitless) effect.
So what would you say is the "correct" time to nip this stuff down? When the player characters legitimately want to cure their lycanthropy and you tell them they can't because the level trade-out rules are broken? When the party wishes for a Holy Avenger? When the party sits back and watches a Black Ethergaunt solve their problems for them at the end of a gate mandate?
No.
The correct time to fix these is when you are writing the rules. You write them so that these loopholes don't exist. And then the DM doesn't have to notice that what the players happen to be doing isn't merely an effective tactic but the tip of an iceberg that extends to infinity and madness.
Remember, the vast majority of people who encounter Difference Engine in play don't do it by being a 10th level Cleric with a Wight and a Werewolf chained up in their basement - they do it because they perfectly reasonably encounter a werewolf, a wight, and then a town where they can purchase break enchantment and follow the rules in order (and find out that mysteriously they just gained 2 levels for free).
-Frank
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What the DM does is work out something reasonable. The loopholes arise from a legalistic view of the rules in isolation, ignoring the game-balance issues which are pertinent. I have never come across them in play, and I probably won't. The issues that should be dealt with are the ones which come up all the time, like grappling, not obscure abuses of the rules which probably hardly occur in most people's games.
to address your issues:
1: More Wishes: First you must enter a contract with the Efreet and perform your part before the wish can be granted. Second, the Efreet is free to say, "No."
You're also free to kill him and he is not free to leave or fight back. You are also free to bind another Efreet until you find one who is willing to spend the 6 seconds and zero effort required to give you infinite wishes that he literally can't give to himself. You can even make pacts with him where you give him the proceeds of like twenty five wishes. Really, he can give you any magic item for free, and he can't give himself anything at all. Reciprocal Altruism for the win.
Third your deity is free to deny the spell.
It's an arcane spell in every case. Planar Binding is a Wizard Spell, and the Efreet's is a natural spell like ability. None of this is granted by anyone. No deity can deny any spell being used by any of the participants.
The Efreet is free to give you a Staff of Wishes with 1 charge while the spell requires 3 charges. <snip>
You know, he's really not. We aren't using the "or other crazy crap" clause of the wish spell which the DM is entitled to screw with. We are using the "create a magic item or improve an existing magic item" clause which works exactly as printed and has no leeway for DM hijinx. Seriously, open the PHB and read the spell. Any Magic item. Got that? ANY MAGIC ITEM!
2: Free Vacation. A named, unique NPC does NOT have to respond to your summons unless he wishes to.
This is factually incorrect. A specific named NPC does have to respond and he does have to follow orders exactly for 1 round/level.
You are apparently mistaking the rules that apply to unique beings (such as a Tarrasque) or Deities (such as Pelor). Those things don't have to come if they don't want to. But named NPCs actually do. The rest of your flippant reply is excised because it is made of epic fail.
3 Reawakening the Awaken. Wildshape does not change your Type.
Yes it does.
4: The Difference Engine: When you turn into a lycanthrope you are supposed to turn over your sheet to your DM as you become an NPC.
Actually, no you aren't. That's why infected Lycanthropes have a Level Adjustment.
5: Shadow over Sun: You can command a maximum number of undead based upon your level. It doesn't matter how command is established.
And every Shadow created by a Shadow is under the absolute control of the shadow who created it. So you're a general of the undead. Your colonels control some arbitrary number of shadows and you tell them what to do with their hordes. It's not perfect, and it can easily fail if people kill cornerstone shadows, but if your actual goal is destroying the world there's no way for anyone to really stop you from doing that.
Honestly, nothing as described is broken.
Honestly, you haven't read any of the relevant rules and your off-the-cuff "smack the PCs if they get uppitty" replies are exactly the kind of shenanigans that are created by the bad design that we would hopefully be avoiding by making a new game.
-Frank
3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And...
I'm pretty sure this one, at least, has already been addressed. You no longer gain the Animal subtype when Wildshaping.
(edit)Since you've already responded to the effect that this is wrong, there shall be citations:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#WildShape
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm
The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
Good point. After that round of errata, you actually have to use Polymorph.
But of course, you can, so we're essentially in the same place.
-Frank
Good point. After that round of errata, you actually have to use Polymorph.
But of course, you can, so we're essentially in the same place.
-Frank
Yes, Polymorph is still broken in the current iteration of rules.
I think you guys are missing the point of Frank's post. Yes these problems can be addressed by a good DM. The same can be said for grappling and everything else the Pathfinder RPG is looking at.
Additionally, putting some guidelines in for these problems helps new players and keeps the game from slowing down. Wish could probably stand a bit of a tweek anyway.
One thing, the lastest errata on wildshape specifically stated that wildshape functions like the alternate form special ability. This means that the character retains the type and subtype of its original form, though if the new form has the aquatic subtype, the character does gain it.
So awaken is not an issue anymore.
to address your issues:
1: More Wishes: First you must enter a contract with the Efreet and perform your part before the wish can be granted. Second, the Efreet is free to say, "No." Third your deity is free to deny the spell. The Efreet is free to give you a Staff of Wishes with 1 charge while the spell requires 3 charges. Or even for giggles and grins the Efreet may give you a Cursed Staff of Wishes (it is still a Staff of Wishes) as it is evil. Like many high level spells, this has the potential to break a game IF the GM allows it o, but there is absolutely no reason of what-so-ever that he HAS to allow it to.
This one has always entertained me. First of all, Krome, I agree with you, but...
1) Efreet are LAWFUL creatures, but they are also evil creatures. The Staff of Wishes won't be cursed. It will just have the meanest interpretation possible. Second, the Efreet is bound by the laws of the Efreet, meaning he can't just grant extraneous wishes to whoever he wants, he has to obey the rules of Efreetdom, and if he screws up, the Efreet Sultan will be torturing him for centuries.
2) My players have learned over the years NEVER to wish for anything from an Efreet, and that the best thing that they can do when one shows up is to cast SILENCE on him as quickly as possible so he cannot grant anyone anything. Some groups are so careful that they won't even say "I wish" in front of an Efreet.
3) This is my favorite example of how to use an efreet. A character found an efreeti bottle, and the efreet was forced to grant the PC's three wishes. The PC who opened the bottle asked for a map to the location that they were going to go to. The Efreet burned off all his hair, and burned the treasure map into the back of his head. So not only could the PC not read the map, but his friend had to read it off the back of his head, which, as you might have guessed, might have been something of a problem.
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Not all DMs will see the potential problem on the horizon. Frank's nice enough to point some of the odd loopholes out, he's good at that. Remember now he's trying to help here, so don't get too worked up. I'm sure efficiency analysts go through this sort of thing all the time.
To use an amusing metaphor, It's like saying when you press F1 rapidly after a minute it causes your reactor coolant to flush and your nuclear reactor goes into meltdown.
You guys are saying well put up a sign that says don't do that or tackle someone when they're trying it. Why not just remove the function in the first place?
I'm definitely a proponent of DM responsibility, but sometimes the DM can't or won't step in and deal with the problem. At the very least I've seen sessions grind to a halt over debates and issues like this.
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Obviously, 'any DM can deal with this,' but I'd rather put the money where the mouth is and prove that I can do that, rather than just say it.
1> More Wishes
Options;
1) Replace Wish with some sort of Greater, Greater Anyspell (indeed, the Wish for amazing magic item option should be gone anyway).2) Using the 'summoned monsters can't summon other monsters' precedent, clarify in the text that a Wish can't create more Wishes.
3) Using the 'summoned beasties Continual Flame spells wink out when they leave' precedent, clarify in the text that a summoned Efreeti might grant a Wish, but it's effects end if the Efreeti leaves, is dismissed, dies or whatever.
4) Stop giving monsters stupid powers that you'd never give a PC, since the powers are balanced by their level-to-aquire, material and XP costs, and having a middlin' CR critter able to cast cost-free Wishes is INSANE! And even more insane in a game where PCs can gain access to monster-only powers through various types of shapechanging (wild shaping, polymorphing, etc.) and various types of summoning (planar binding, gating, etc.) and various types of player-controls-monster (dominate, leadership, monster PCs, etc.).
Number four is actually my number one. Monsters with powers that would break the game if the PCs had them is dumb design, IMO.
To keep them in-theme, Genies should be able to use Minor / Major / Supreme Creation spells and Fabricate and whip up all sorts of wonderful stuff, with their advanced Craft skills to make really fancy gear and masterwork stuff out of thin air, all 'genie-crafted' and cool. Perhaps they can do other cool things, like Imbue With Spell Ability from a generous list. But the actual Wish spell should be just a bit more special than that.
2> Free Vacation on the Negative Energy Plane (no save) The gate
Poorly written spell on the one hand. I'm not a fan of otherplanar creatures being able to Gate in material plane residents. But the problem is no less if the PCs can Gate in high level extraplanar creatures and snuff them for XP.
Hit this one twice, once at the Gate side and once at the XP gain side.
1) The Gate only allows specific services, and 'stand there while I kill you' isn't one of them. If pushing my Magic Circle of Protection against someone breaks that protection, or smacking someone while under a Sanctuary effect gives it freedom to fight back, or telling my Charmed 'friend' to attack himself gives another save, then attacking some entity I Gated in should follow the exact same principles.
2) No challenge? No EXP. Make this explicit. If the Minotaur is trapped in a box and delivered to your doorstep, you do not get 762 XP for sticking your sword in the box repeatedly until it is dead.
3> Reawakening
Awaken is another wonky one (ditto Simulacra, etc.). Any spell that gives a bonus, even an untyped one, should explicitly not stack with itself. Same for those spells that turn something into metal or increase the hardness of something.
Awaken Undead, Awaken Construct, Awaken Vermin, etc. should similarly state this.
Awaken, IMO, should also be tweaked to allow a Druid to Awaken his Companion without losing it. Magical Beast type change? Sure. Extra HD? I don't think so. Tweaking it so that the Int/Cha gain can't be Maximized / Empowered (as they did when they tweaked Simulacra so that they couldn't be Maxed/Amped)? Not sure if that's a problem or just clever use of spells... It's hardly a game-wrecker if your Awakened Dire Lion has Int 15 instead of Int 10, after all.
4> The Difference Engine Level loss is funny stuff. It sets your XP total to the mid point of your new, lower level.
That's just strange. I blame it on the Lycanthrope beastie, which is just darn peculiar. I'd recommend looking at Sean Reynolds variant Lycanthrope article to see if it's a better design, and just skip the whole 'added levels' thing.
LA, when it works at all (and it's an awful kludge in any case, IMO), should never count as 'levels gained' for purposes like this.
This one should be hit from both sides. Any peculiar wording in the LA gain / level-loss areas (both clunky systems that I loathe anyway) should be tightened up to clarify that there is no XP teat to be suckled hidden there. And the Lycanthrope desperately needs a makeover.
5> The Shadow over the Sun Did you notice that Shadows create a new Shadow every time they kill "a creature"?
Back to my Pet Peeve #1. Monsters with *INSANE* powers that nobody in their right mind would give to a PC, oh, and look, a PC can control shadows, summon shadows, turn into shadows or even start the freaking game as a PC shadow! Oops.
Create Spawn should be a behind-the-scenes power. No, "I kill this cow, a shadow under my control pops out 1 round later." More, "My shadow minions killed this entire village full of pathetic magic-weapon-less commoners! Darn. None of them seem to have spawned as new Shadows..." [three nights later, a single Shadow rises from the mass grave, under no ones control, but the evil priest has wandered off by that point]
Created Spawn should never be under the creator's control. They shouldn't be guaranteed. And they should not pop up like video game opponents 6 seconds after a critter dies! Sometimes they show up, after great misery, sometimes they don't. Only Vampires have a specific method, that takes several nights and costs the Vampire something, and gives it *influence over, but not control of* the Spawn, would use a mechanic similar to the Create Spawn mechanic, because it fits the lore of the creature. Even then, only older advanced Vampires can do this anyway. Lower-ranked vampires don't know how to Create Spawn.
From Pun-Pun to 'I summon a Lantern Archon and have him make me a dozen Continual Flame items that I then sell for 50 gp each,' a crapload of rules-exploits stem from my #1 Pet Peeve.
A fantasy game, where PCs can control, summon or turn into various beasties *requires* that the beasties not have powers that the PCs should *never* get their little hands on! You could go with the lame solution, and never let PCs control, summon or shapechange into anything ever again (which sounds like a pretty freaking LAME attempt at making a 'fantasy' game!), or you could try to craft a game where the monsters are capable of being challenging and evocative without having any CR 9 critters able to cast cost-free Wishes! (Or Create Spawn, or cast Continual Flame, or any other thing you don't want the PCs to be able to do without cost!)
3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And...I'm pretty sure this one, at least, has already been addressed. You no longer gain the Animal subtype when Wildshaping.
(edit)Since you've already responded to the effect that this is wrong, there shall be citations:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#WildShape
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm
The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
As an interesting point to go along with this...
The errata, technically, is not defined as Open Game Content. So, while d20srd.org has taken the trouble to add the errata to their site, it's not actually what's in the official SRD. I just checked, and in the official SRD, Wild Shape is still based on polymorph.
Rez - LA buyoff isn't part of the "core" rules. It's from Unearthed Arcana (though it is OGL material). By the "normal" rules, Hypersmurf is quite correct about the XP.
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The spell Awaken grants "humanlike sentience" (according to the SRD) to the target. That sentience means that the animal "gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD." However, the stat and HD gains are a byproduct of "sentience" rather than an effect of the spell.
Can I has +2 HD as a byproduct of sentience? That would be kewl.
At a certain point you guys need to see the big picture. I'd rather have more original monsters in my MM than have them cut in half because every entry had to be longer to include a "no-trickle-down-spawning" line or separate entry and stats for "XXX-spawn".
Or you take out the Create Spawn entry and say, 'Sometimes Shadows arise spontaneously in areas where humanoids have died to Shadow attacks.' and have *more* room for new original monsters!
Everybody wins!
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Can I has +2 HD as a byproduct of sentience? That would be kewl.I'd rule the Intelligence and Charisma increases come from sentience, the +2 HD from becoming a magical, rather than mundane, animal.
But that's just me :-)
Yeah, I was just having a lolcat moment. :)
But with the Animal turning into a Magical Beast, it's already getting some extra hit points, as well as changes to BAB, saves, etc. IMO, the change to Magical Beast, and the Int/Cha, is *plenty* of bonus. Extra Hit Dice are one toke over the line.
I've played a lot of D&D and I've never had a problem with any of those examples.
Not one.
I've had issues involving grappling, freedom of movement, what damages a web, getting up when threatened, and a dozen other things.
Sufficient unto the day are the troubles thereof... Let's not try to plug every munchkin trick in the book, OK?
If you were playing D&D 3.5, you might have a case. But Pathfinder RPG is an OGL game, and is based on the SRD, not on the PHB, and the Staff of the Magi example does not appear in the SRD.Fair enough. But you have to realize that the SRD was created not by re-writing the Core rules but simply by removing the specific references and items WotC wished to hold back as intellectual property without replacing them with appropriate OGL references.
So? The example isn't even relevant. The Staff of the Magi is an Artifact with no cost. Wish allows you to create a magic item of any cost. So a Staff of the Magi is literally not on the list of things that Wish can produce. A Staff of Wishes is.
-Frank
Hi. New to these boards, but I've learned how to rules-lawyer from some of the best, so I hope you're willing to hear me out.
I'm not really feeling willing to read up on most of this, but I may be able to help with this tricky "Awaken" loop we're dealing with. Cracking out my handy SRD, I'm looking at the "Target" line of the spell description. It specifically mentions the term "animal", as does the spell text. "Animal" is defined as a creature type, which is mentioned in various locations to be unable to have an intelligence higher than 2. Therefore, any creature or character with an intelligence of 3 or higher is an illegal target for the Awaken spell. Since the target of the spell has 3d6 intelligence, they can't be an animal (due to a minimum of 3 intelligence from the roll), and therefore becomes an illegal target for the spell. No DM finesse, no crazy cross-examples. As written, the Awaken spell can be used on a target animal once and only once. Now, if you could turn yourself into a tree, you'd have something, but I have yet to see a spell that allows that.
Technically any creature which stops being an Animal Type because it has an Int higher than 3 gains the [Augmented Animal] Subtype, which means that they are still targetable by any spells which target animals. So really you don't need to do anything funky Reawaken. Once you've targeted yourself once, you can target yourself again and again.
But seriously, this discussion shouldn't be revolving around people trying to pull hair-brained theories on why these rules loopholes don't exist, because they do. This discussion should be about people coming up with alternate writeups of the rules such that these loop holes don't exist, as all of them are symptomatic of portions of the rules that don't work well.
-Frank
The Staff of the Magi is an Artifact with no cost. Wish allows you to create a magic item of any cost. So a Staff of the Magi is literally not on the list of things that Wish can produce.Wish allows you to create a magic item. It does not require that magic item to have a cost; rather, it requires you to pay twice the normal XP cost. Given that Wish as a Sp ability ignores XP cost, that cost becomes irrelevant.
Are you contending that an artifact is not a magic item? The description of Minor Artifacts states "they are magic items".
I am contending, among other things, that the rule "Even so, they are magic items that can no longer be created, at least by common mortal means." puts you on extremely shaky grounds when trying to create them with a "mortal wish" that is usable 3 times a day.
-Frank
1> More Wishes For reasons defying ready analysis, the 3.5 Wish spell allows you to wish for magic items of unlimited power, with the only caveat being that the XP cost is arbitrarily high. The game also allows people to cast spells with XP costs no matter how high without spending anything at all if they cast them as Spell-like abilities or out of magic items. So if you cast planar binding to call in an Efreet, it is a legal basic wish to request a Staff of Wishes. The XP cost of the wish is over five hundred thousand, but that doesn't matter because neither you nor anyone else actually pays that cost. Breaks game at level 11.
Easy "rewrite". Add a single line to the spell description that mentions that the spell cannot be used to gain more wishes in the form of magical items, summoned creatures' spell-like abilities, or similar means, and that the spell will end without result if it is tried anyway, but still incurs the costs of trying. A more formal, book-worthy wording should be in the province of a good game designer, the intent is clear I hope. :)
Otherwise yeah, wishing for a Ring of Three Wishes is perfectly legal, within the parameters of the spell, and the capacities of an Efreet.To be fair, DM intervention is written into the spell description, so completely discounting the DM as a solution is a bit unfair, in my opinion. A lot of the abusability comes from the wording alone, especially with an Efreet. Example: "I wish for you to create a Ring of Three Wishes for me." could (legally) lead to the Ring being created with partial charges only, or created at full strength but 5000 miles away from your current place, guarded by a hoard of monsters. But this just as an aside.
2> Free Vacation on the Negative Energy Plane (no save) The gate spell allows you to call in a specific named individual who is a resident of a plane other than the one you are standing in, and they have to do anything you tell them to (no matter how stupid or dangerous) for 1 round/level. Aside from the basic hilarity of calling in Solars to hand over their sweet loot, you can actually go to other planes of existence and then call in named individuals from your home plane and then kill them. You're a 17th level character and killing a level appropriate challenge is worth more to you than the gate costs; so when you pull in the villain of the adventure and force him to hand roll taquitos for 17 rounds while your entire team beats him mercilessly in the back of the head - you actually make XP (and win the adventure). Breaks game at level 17.
The spell as written allows you to pull a named, known individual through a gate, but it doesn't describe any further what you can do with them. Basically, you have your target beside you, but no control over it. All the controlling is defined only for calling more general for a certain creature type. But a clearer spell description in this part would indeed help with this problem.
Also, any opponent a 17th level could concievably have as BBEG should easily fall into the "unique individual" bracket, thus making it VERY hard to use that trick. ;)Calling a Solar (or similar) to strip-search them while they watch helplessly can be fun...I imagine the follow-up of the Solar and his underlings gating in to your place to get his stuff back AND give you a stern lecture on why it is not a good idea to strip-search Solars should be enough to discourage anybody.
And again, discounting any DM's reaction to this is missing the target of actually having a DM in the game. I could as well say "Man, attack rolls are such a loophole. I can stand there and pound on that monster all day until it drops DEAD!" as long as I disallow the DM's obvious reaction of having the monster hit me back. Spell abuse doesn't always have to be "fixed" by the rules...sometimes, the environment will take care of the mistake.
3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And again. And so on. Breaks game at level 9.
Has been dealt with, I believe. Wildshape does not turn you into an animal.
Polymorph turns you into an animal, so it works with that. The question is more if you keep all the bonuses when you turn back to your normal form.A better wording would be necessary to fix this indeed. A case could be made that the "natural form" the caster returns to when the spell ends is the unaugmented one he had before he polymorphed, but that again would be DM's interpretation.
4> The Difference Engine Level loss is funny stuff. It sets your XP total to the mid point of your new, lower level. When combined with Lycanthropy (which gives you bonus levels without XP), this can turn into an infinite level engine. Here is how it works: First get bit by a lycanthrope, and fail (voluntarily) your save vs. turning into a badger (or whatever). Your "level" is now 2-8 levels above what it was a few moments ago. Now get punched in the mouth by a Wight, and fail your save against the level loss. Your "level" is one lower than it was a few moments ago, which still puts it at 1-7 levels higher than it was when you started the process, and it gives you XP to match. Now cast break enchantment on yourself and trade those crappy lycanthrope levels in for Cleric levels subject to your current XP total - which means that you are a much higher level Cleric than when you started. Also you aren't a lycanthrope, so you can get bitten and restart the process. It takes a few weeks of downtime to pick up enough levels to fight gods. Note: "The Difference Engine" is also the general term for any loop based on selling and repurchasing stuff for profit, including using the retraining rules to max out all skills by trading out skills at the cross class rate and repurchasing them in-class. Breaks game at level 10.
That's not a loophole, that's faulty interpretation. The easy answer is that you lose XP when you lose a level. So if you start out with 6000 XP (Level 4) and get turned into a Wererat (LA +2), you would need XP for level 7 in order to gain another class level, since you are treated as a level 6 creature now concerning progression. NOT concerning your actual XP.
So now you are a level 4 Wererat, and get hit by a Wight and manage to lose one level permanently. Your XP immediately drop to the (general) midpoint between 3rd and 4th level, which is 4500 XP. From that point, you need to get back to 15000 XP to gain another level now, since you count as a level 5 creature concerning progression only.In a nutshell, LA only raises the ceiling for how many XP you must earn to progress for you personally, it does not change the general XP amounts between levels. You don't "gain" more XP from getting a LA patched on, and you don't change the XP brackets for the levels in general. It's a mathematically simpler way to say "Each XP your character earns from now on is only worth X% of a "normal" XP for him personally".
This will most likely be labeled "DM's interpretation" as well, and discarded, but I posit that your "loophole" is nothing but your own interpretation as well, and about as much worth as anybody else's. I see no need to fix this.
5> The Shadow over the Sun Did you notice that Shadows create a new Shadow every time they kill "a creature"? That includes peasants, mackerel, squirrels, and even butterflies. Also, they are incorporeal and have a totally arbitrary way of killing people that is almost completely level independent. So if you create and command one Shadow, you can create an arbitrarily large army of the things under chain control that will conquer the entire world. It's not even hard. Breaks game at level 11.
Level 15, if you want to create a Shadow using create greater undead, if I'm not mistaken. Or 6th, if you want to control a shadow by a turning attempt.
And yeah, I agree, this can turn into a flood of shadows easily. Wights are even worse, with their energy drain attack as a CR 3 creature.The easiest way is to make clear that spawned creatures can't spawn themselves until they have broken the control of their creator.
I'm really not interested in people who want to say "But the DM can override the rules, no DM is going to let you Wish for infinite wishes!" because that's kind of the entire point of this article. This is about addressing actual rules loop holes.Also, I will note that all of these can be done at much lower levels. For example, you could use lesser planar binding to get a limited wish off a Dao and then cash that in for a planar binding to get an Efreet to grant you a wish to make you win Dungeons and Dragons.
-Frank
As above, some are indeed "loopholes" and can be closed with a few relatively easy sentences. Some others are basically your interpretation of how a rule works, and are simply countered by the DM's interpretation of how the rule works.
The question is, as for every game system, how much "common sense" you want to assume in your potential players when you write up the game, and how much you want to hardcode into the rules because you believe your players won't get it. I've seen people trying to argue that D&D 3E supported the 1 for 1 diagonal movement rule of 4E because it didn't say otherwise anywhere in the rules directly, while all spell templates shown in the PHB made it clear that it used 1-2-1-2. There's always people who need to have some common sense explained, apparently, but how thick a rulebook would you like to write to REALLY have ALL the potential abuses, misinterpretations and "loopholes" ironed out? I doubt 400 pages will cut it. I doubt 800 would. Personally, I'd prefer some people with a bit more common sense trying to play the game, instead of trying to break it. :)
Those are amusing, but then again this is why the DM is the ultimate authority. Honestly if a player tried one of the many power loops that are available through the various power builds, it might very well be the last time that player would be in my group.
Wish allows you to create a magic item. It does not require that magic item to have a cost; rather, it requires you to pay twice the normal XP cost. Given that Wish as a Sp ability ignores XP cost, that cost becomes irrelevant.Are you contending that an artifact is not a magic item? The description of Minor Artifacts states "they are magic items".
The description of Minor Artifacts states "Even so, they are magic items that no longer can be created, at least by common mortal means."
This would at least fulfill the "more than that" clause that invokes the DM's right to twist the wish as much as he likes. And before we start nitpicking the wording "common mortal means"...no magical item can be created by "common" mortal means that don't include character abilities. Thus, Minor Artifacts are above the "common mortal means" of the standard player character. This includes wish. That is my interpretation alone, of course, but so is everything else...interpretation. D&D is based on players with some common sense and agreeability, after all. ;)
A creature with the Augmented Animal subtype has that subtype because it is no longer an animal.A human Dragon Disciple who has undergone Apotheosis is not subject to Hold Person. A familiar is not subject to Speak With Animals. The Augmented subtype doesn't mean you're treated as your old type.
-Hyp.
A creature with a type and subtype is still part of that creature type, only with modifications. All effects that affect this creature type still affect the creature, except if the effect excludes any modifications that are created by the sub-type. For example, an augmented animal cannot be turned into a familiar since "Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar." An aquatic animal, on the other hand, can be turned into a familiar if it is a naturally occuring aquatic animal, and didn't recieve the aquatic subtype through augmentation.
A Dragon Disciple who has undergone apotheosis, and changes into a half-dragon, gains the dragon creature type, and hence is not affected by Hold Person anymore. A familiar is not subject to Speak with Animals because it has been turned into a Magical Beast and is not affected anymore by anything that affects animals.
The awaken spell gives an animal of plant humanlike sentience. You could easily rule that since the spellcaster already has humanlike sentience he cannot be affected by the spell.
The other stuff is only broken if you're a completely anal roleplaying bastard with a weak-willed or easily gulled GM!
And the previous poster is right. Your XP doesn't change simply because you gain an EL (LA + Hit Dice). Your XP stays the same. It just takes you longer to go up a level. A lot of people don't understand LA and EL properly, so I won't hold it against you.
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People, seriously, stop bashing Frank for this. He has pointed out problems that are fairly EASY to fix. What is the great hurdle with FIXING these problems? It takes a few lines, a rewrite of some wording and VOILA, the problems go away.
Jesus Christ people. He pointed out logical misuses/loopholes that can easily be removed. Shouldn't we be HAPPY that he does so NOW rather than AFTER the frigging product is released in its final version? Isn't this the entire POINT of an open playtest?
And, finally, "any DM can arbitrarily handwave that stuff" is an explanation that does not apply to IMPROVING FAULTY RULES. Because in that case, who needs an updated, streamlined 3.5 if we can just handwave every problem? The point is REMOVING the need for arbitrarily handwaving stuff.
Wake up.
avast
Arrrrrr, matey. ;-P
People, seriously, stop bashing Frank for this. He has pointed out problems that are fairly EASY to fix. What is the great hurdle with FIXING these problems? It takes a few lines, a rewrite of some wording and VOILA, the problems go away.
Jesus Christ people. He pointed out logical misuses/loopholes that can easily be removed. Shouldn't we be HAPPY that he does so NOW rather than AFTER the frigging product is released in its final version? Isn't this the entire POINT of an open playtest?
And, finally, "any DM can arbitrarily handwave that stuff" is an explanation that does not apply to IMPROVING FAULTY RULES. Because in that case, who needs an updated, streamlined 3.5 if we can just handwave every problem? The point is REMOVING the need for arbitrarily handwaving stuff.
Wake up.
Are you the fanclub president? Just asking, because you come over so incredibly defensive and annoyed that some people question the assessment of the OP. Anyway, the intent wasn't bashing. :)
Some of the things the OP posted as "loopholes" are indeed loopholes. Other are very narrow interpretations of the rules, nothing else, and don't need a fix so much as some common sense. Some are only broken if the DM in question is stupid enough to simply sit there and let his players waltz all over him, but in that case, any rule can be broken. No save.
The fact that some of the combinations can be abused, if looked from one angle (or trying to exclude the underlying intent of the rule in question), won't be easily fixed by impriving or streamlining. Quite the opposite. His "Reawakening" example can only be "fixed" in his sense of the word if every ability brought up in the combo has a specifically attached note that it won't work together with all the other abilities in question. It's the same thing the old editions did for magical items...noting every exception in the item description. If you want that for every ability that could convievably be combined to an abusing result in 3.5, we're looking at a 1000 pages tome that won't be read by anybody, much less played.
Look at the PHB 3.0 to 3.5 transition. The 3.5 edition incorporated a little stuff, had a LOT of clarification in the combat chapter, added a handful of feats, and grew from 288 pages (including character sheet) to 319 pages. 31 pages only for that. And it is 3.5 "loopholes" we talk about. So how much bigger will the thing grow by clarifying and correcting all the possible combinations in the Core Rules alone? And do you really think it all will fit into a 420 pages book that is supposed to stay mostly compatible with 3.5 afterwards while including the whole system? :)
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3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And...
First, Frank, thanks for these analases.
It is worth noting with the Awaken spell, that you Intelligence becomes 3d6, potentially turning you into a complete idiot.
Also, since your type has now changed to magical beast (enhanced animal),I would feel free as a DM to say you would not be able to revert back to human form, and that magical beast was now your base form.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Here's a new one - and infinate money making machine. Use any of the summon monster spells from IV and up, and summon lantern archons, which have the continual flame spell as an at will spell like ability. As long as you speak celestial, you can communicate with them and have them use their powers as you direct. Therefore, you can tell them to cast continual flame every round that they're summoned on objects you have ready, and presto, you've got as many everburning torches as you want, which you can then sell without paying any material component cost at all.
Here's a new one - and infinate money making machine. Use any of the summon monster spells from IV and up, and summon lantern archons, which have the continual flame spell as an at will spell like ability. As long as you speak celestial, you can communicate with them and have them use their powers as you direct. Therefore, you can tell them to cast continual flame every round that they're summoned on objects you have ready, and presto, you've got as many everburning torches as you want, which you can then sell without paying any material component cost at all.
Heh, that sounds like a PC game loophole, where you have auto-sale functions. Those always are fun then.
In D&D? Dunno...you really simply go up to your DM, tell him "I want to sell 10 everburning torches for 50 gold a pop" and he goes "Yup, write down 500 gold on your sheet?" Really? That's generous of him. :)
Here's a new one - and infinate money making machine. Use any of the summon monster spells from IV and up, and summon lantern archons, which have the continual flame spell as an at will spell like ability. As long as you speak celestial, you can communicate with them and have them use their powers as you direct. Therefore, you can tell them to cast continual flame every round that they're summoned on objects you have ready, and presto, you've got as many everburning torches as you want, which you can then sell without paying any material component cost at all.
Now let's not start the infinite moneymaking loops, or we'll have people taking quarterstaffs (free) and selling them as firewood (which has value); or buying ladders, sawing out the rungs, and selling them back as two 10 foot poles.
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The key is in the Augmented Animal subtype:
This particular bit of esoterica is something I loathe in any game system.
"The Animal becomes a Magical Beast. Except that it doesn't gain the abilities of a Magical Beast, it retains the abilities of an Animal, only we call it a 'Magical Beast' because we wanted to yank your dick."
In my game, an Awakened Animal (or Vermin) becomes a Magical Beast, at which point it follows the rules for 'Magical Beast' in the SRD. No nonsensical exception is needed in this case, as exceptions just bog down the game and needlessly complicate things, IMO.
Here's a new one - and infinate money making machine. Use any of the summon monster spells from IV and up, and summon lantern archons, which have the continual flame spell as an at will spell like ability. As long as you speak celestial, you can communicate with them and have them use their powers as you direct. Therefore, you can tell them to cast continual flame every round that they're summoned on objects you have ready, and presto, you've got as many everburning torches as you want, which you can then sell without paying any material component cost at all.
This doesn't actually work. Remember that Summoned critters have their spells wink out of existence when the summoning ends, unlike called critters, who do not.
So while you can use lesser planar binding to pull in a Lantern Archon and light a city, you can't use summon monster IV to do that.
-Frank
2> Free Vacation on the Negative Energy Plane (no save) The gate spell allows you to call in a specific named individual who is a resident of a plane other than the one you are standing in, and they have to do anything you tell them to (no matter how stupid or dangerous) for 1 round/level. Aside from the basic hilarity of calling in Solars to hand over their sweet loot, you can actually go to other planes of existence and then call in named individuals from your home plane and then kill them. You're a 17th level character and killing a level appropriate challenge is worth more to you than the gate costs; so when you pull in the villain of the adventure and force him to hand roll taquitos for 17 rounds while your entire team beats him mercilessly in the back of the head - you actually make XP (and win the adventure). Breaks game at level 17.
Um, isn't this "break" in complete violation of the ban on gaining XP from summoned creatures? Gate is a summon spell. You never gain XP from creatures defeated by a summon spell. They are considered to be part of the XP rewarded by defeating the summoner. Gate is no exception to this. In order for this trick you describe to work, you would need to defeat yourself, not the gated creature.
3> Reawakening The Awaken spell turns an Animal into a Magical Beast and gives them sweet untyped instantaneous increases to hit dice and mental stats. You can give yourself the Animal type over and over again with Wildshaping, and that means that you can Awaken yourself again. And...
Jason has already made it clear he plans on addressing the entire polymorph subsystem (which this is a part of).