I recently managed to blow about 100 points in a single round, with temporal acceleration and both normal and quickened powers in the "virtual rounds" and something else in the "actual round".
I like psionics and have many a fond memory of them. I can't see the problem with including them in the Pathfinder world, especially if on a limited basis.
For example, I included Psionics in the Forgotten realms, but only allowed a single people to have it "commonly" - The Bedine from the Anaroch Desert. IMC, they hate magic and kill wizards/sorcerers on sight if they are able to, but I felt that they still needed something, since they were the decendents of the Netherese, and having a "magic" system based on Willpower had the perfect flavor.
I included the above quote as a preface to my support of psionics because I was wondering how you did this. I don't have the books with me at work, but I remember reading that you couldn't spend more points on any manifested power greater than your level. This would mean that increasing a 3rd level power like energy-ball (which takes 5 power points to produce) by 2 points to augment the damage would require you to be a level 7 psion. Do I understand that correctly?
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There is absolutely no way, in any WotC Psionic book, to apply more than 2 Metapsionic feats to a single power.
Well, there is Epic Psionic Focus (XPH 34), but it is an epic feat and thus not attainable before level 21.
And the division of powers/spells is quite balanced as it is. A level 15 wizard casting an empowered maximized fireball as an level 8 spell does 90 points of fire damage. A psion manifesting energy ball (fire) with 15 power points will do 15d6+15, approximately 68 points of damage. He could also manifest an empowered energy ball, doing appromately 88 points of damage or a maximized one, dealing 77 points of damage. Should he cast an empowered maximized energy ball, he will deal 94 points of damage, a bit more than the wizard but quite feat intensive. The wizard could just as easily take arcana thesis (fireball) and cast empowered maximized fireballs as level 6 spells, doing the same amount of damage. The wizard has, with the right feats, a highter damage potential while the psion can adjust his spells on the fly and has the option of manifesting more high level (or high level equivalent) powers. This also shows that augmenting, apart from the increased Save DC and not needing psionic focus is in many cases inferior to metapsionic feats, especially empower power.
... This also shows that augmenting, apart from the increased Save DC and not needing psionic focus is in many cases inferior to metapsionic feats, especially empower power.
...and that Free scaling coupled with Metamagic is much more cost effective than Augmenting and burning your focus every other round for a metapsionic effect.
(Also bear in mind that while a Wizard can take Fireball at Lvl 5, a Psion has to be a Kineticist to learn Energy ball at Lvl 7 or burn an aditional feat to learn it at 9th lvl.)
This also shows that augmenting, apart from the increased Save DC and not needing psionic focus is in many cases inferior to metapsionic feats, especially empower power.
Perhaps the manifester's damage out put wouldn't be be precieved as unbalanced if the save DC also didn't automatically scale along with the increased damage die.
Maybe it would be better off as two different augment options instead of being tied into one. Its that or just remove the option of increasing the save DC thru augmenting entirely and leaving it that psions need to use Heightened Power metapsionic feat.
This also shows that augmenting, apart from the increased Save DC and not needing psionic focus is in many cases inferior to metapsionic feats, especially empower power.Perhaps the manifester's damage out put wouldn't be be precieved as unbalanced if the save DC also didn't automatically scale along with the increased damage die.
Maybe it would be better off as two different augment options instead of being tied into one. Its that or just remove the option of increasing the save DC thru augmenting entirely and leaving it that psions need to use Heightened Power metapsionic feat.
Um there is no Heightened power feat.
whereas the Heighten Metamagic feat does not increase the spell slot for a spell.
Um there is no Heightened power feat.
whereas the Heighten Metamagic feat does not increase the spell slot for a spell.
Sorry, I'm thinking 3e psionics, not 3.5.
Heighten Spell does take up a higher spell slot (i.e. fireball could be memorized as a 5th-spell and would be treated as a 5th-level spell in all regards).
Sorry, I'm thinking 3e psionics, not 3.5.
Heighten Spell does take up a higher spell slot (i.e. fireball could be memorized as a 5th-spell and would be treated as a 5th-level spell in all regards).
Thinking about 3e Psionics could also explain thinking that Psionics are broken, you do know they completely redesigned the system right? (and I will agree 3e Psionics were horrible and unbalanced.)
Regarding Heightened Spell: a Maximized Fireball is a 6th level slot. a Heightened Maximized spell is also a 6th level slot. ...so while yes used by itself it does increase the level it is icing on the cake to use with any other Metamagic feat.
Thinking about 3e Psionics could also explain thinking that Psionics are broken, you do know they completely redesigned the system right? (and I will agree 3e Psionics were horrible and unbalanced.)
Yes, I realize that there's a new system, thanks. I had a laspe in memory regarding the Heightened Power feat.
I never claimed that I felt psionics as a whole are broken, only that some of the damage powers are slightly unbalanced.
Yes, I realize that there's a new system, thanks. I had a laspe in memory regarding the Heightened Power feat.I never claimed that I felt psionics as a whole are broken, only that some of the damage powers are slightly unbalanced.
Just makin sure :D
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Um there is no Heightened power feat.
whereas the Heighten Metamagic feat does not increase the spell slot for a spell.
Actually, there kind of is a Heighten Power feat. It's called Psionic Endowment and allows you to expend your focus to increase the Save DC of a power by one. Other metapsionic feats like Expend Power also don't increase the number of power points to spend. The problem with scaled DCs is that spells like scorching ray and magic missile lose alot less by applying metamagic feats to them than fireball, so maybe it would be best to simply remove the spell/powers effect on the save DC and simply tie the Save DC to Caster/Manifester level if this is on of the gripes people have with psionics.
Actually, there kind of is a Heighten Power feat. It's called Psionic Endowment and allows you to expend your focus to increase the Save DC of a power by one. Other metapsionic feats like Expend Power also don't increase the number of power points to spend. The problem with scaled DCs is that spells like scorching ray and magic missile lose alot less by applying metamagic feats to them than fireball, so maybe it would be best to simply remove the spell/powers effect on the save DC and simply tie the Save DC to Caster/Manifester level if this is on of the gripes people have with psionics.
No, Psionic Endowment == Spell Focus (a static +1 to DC)
but it's actually worse than that as you have to burn your focus to use it.The basic formula used to determine ths PP cost for Metapsionics is ((level increase as a Metamagic *2) -2 PP +Expend Focus). (making Focus's value ~2PP)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Enlarge Power:
you must expend your psionic focus, Using this feat does not increase the power point cost of the power.
Enlarge Spell:
uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But this rule has exceptions...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Extend Power:
you must expend your psionic focus, Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2.
Extend Spell:
uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The problem with scaled DCs is that spells like scorching ray and magic missile lose alot less by applying metamagic feats to them than fireball, so maybe it would be best to simply remove the spell/powers effect on the save DC and simply tie the Save DC to Caster/Manifester level if this is on of the gripes people have with psionics.
I actually like the idea DCs being tied to ability modifier + 1/2 caster/manifester level and taking the level of the spell/power out of the equation entirely.
I actually like the idea DCs being tied to ability modifier + 1/2 caster/manifester level and taking the level of the spell/power out of the equation entirely.
Hmmm, that sounds like a workable solution... Not sure how it would affect game balance though. Makes Feeblemind/EgoWhip that much deadlier.
DC= 10 + Key Modifier + (Caster Level * .5) round down.
1st lvl caster with a 18 stat: DC = 14
...
20th Lvl Caster with a 30 Stat: DC = 30
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I actually like the idea DCs being tied to ability modifier + 1/2 caster/manifester level and taking the level of the spell/power out of the equation entirely.
It would also follow the rules monsters are using for their power advancement. And it would make feats like Heighten Spell a bit more useful. You sacrifice power for an increased chance of success. And it would increase the use of bard spells as especially his enchantment spells were in many cases not very useful at high levels because of their low save DC. Touch spells might be a bit let powerful compared to spells that allow saves, but that might not be a bad thing.
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No, Psionic Endowment == Spell Focus (a static +1 to DC)
but it's actually worse than that as you have to burn your focus to use it.
But spell focus requires school specialization which Psionic Endowment doesn't need. It's usefulness depends on the situation, but it basically gives something for nothing. While in combat the expenditure of the psionic focus is a huge drawback, in any other situation it's easily ignored.
It would also follow the rules monsters are using for their power advancement. And it would make feats like Heighten Spell a bit more useful. You sacrifice power for an increased chance of success. And it would increase the use of bard spells as especially his enchantment spells were in many cases not very useful at high levels because of their low save DC. Touch spells might be a bit let powerful compared to spells that allow saves, but that might not be a bad thing.
Heighten spell would no longer effect save DCs, only spell reflecting and stopping effects.
My concern is what about the powers that have augments for DC, they effectively begin getting the augment for free.
also will it be an issue that a burning hands has the same reflex save as a fireball and a Meteor Swarm?
But spell focus requires school specialization which Psionic Endowment doesn't need. It's usefulness depends on the situation, but it basically gives something for nothing. While in combat the expenditure of the psionic focus is a huge drawback, in any other situation it's easily ignored.
There is no such thing as a Generalist Psion.
Doh nevermind. just looked up Spell focus.
The Gazetteer already introduces Psionics into Golarion: In Jalmeray's entry, there is talk about powers that sound a lot like psionics:
"Within decades, they established great monasteries upon the island, spreading word to the followers of Irori throughout the world of a new form of physical and mental discipline from the distant East. (...) Those who thrived were accepted in one of three monasteries, there to develop physical mastery and an unusual magic of the mind."
Mental discipline from the East, unusual magic of the mind - That's our old friend psionics, if you ask me.
Regarding Heightened Spell: a Maximized Fireball is a 6th level slot. a Heightened Maximized spell is also a 6th level slot.
While this might be open to interpretation, I'm pretty sure the rule is meant to increase the DC so it matches the level it uses due to heighten. The maximized fireball is level 6 because of maximize, so if you want to increase the DC, you'll have to go beyond level 6, since those +3 won't increase the DC
For example, I included Psionics in the Forgotten realms, but only allowed a single people to have it "commonly" - The Bedine from the Anaroch Desert. IMC, they hate magic and kill wizards/sorcerers on sight if they are able to, but I felt that they still needed something, since they were the decendents of the Netherese, and having a "magic" system based on Willpower had the perfect flavor.
In a FR game I'm playing in (probably the last time I use the Realms, ever), I played a Shou psion - since we (our group) don't have a lot of information about Shou Lung, we kinda did a mix of Rokugan, Jade Empire, and some more stuff. We just said that they didn't like arcane magic (since it's used by blood warlocks/witches) and instead have manifesters (and monks).
I'd think that psions could work well for Golarion's equivalents of Asia - Tian Xia and Casmaron - or at least parts of it.
As I said above, Jalmeray is said to have imported Vudrani powers, which I interpret as Ki and Psi. So it's in Vudran.
Something similar to what I said above could work in Tian Xia, too: I guess monks will be found there, too, and I could see Psions being prominent there.
For the record: Psi works well for FR drow (at least a couple of families), duergar, and sporadically for other races. There even used to be a god of psionics (one of the Fallen) and a nation where it was a big thing.
I included the above quote as a preface to my support of psionics because I was wondering how you did this. I don't have the books with me at work, but I remember reading that you couldn't spend more points on any manifested power greater than your level. This would mean that increasing a 3rd level power like energy-ball (which takes 5 power points to produce) by 2 points to augment the damage would require you to be a level 7 psion. Do I understand that correctly?
Yes. The trick is to use a lot of powers. That is accomplished with Temporal Acceleration. It's Psion/Wilder 6 (so it costs 11 points), manifests as a swift action, and gives you one apparent action (much like time stop). You can augment it for another round for every 4 points you put into it beyond the normal 11.
So I manifested it as a swift action in the "normal" round to get two "virtual rounds", paying 15 points. I also used energy cone augmented to the hilt for another 15 points, after moving my speed towards the mooks.
In the first virtual round, I buffed myself with something costing me 15 points, buffed me again with something quickened for another 15 points, and used my move action to get my focus back.
In the second virtual round, I did basically the same, with a different set of powers.
That's 30 points for 30 rounds, which basically were all one round as far as the rest of the multiverse was concerned. I want to add that this was a practically confirmed boss fight, and the day had been easy so far. So I was at nearly full capacity at this point and thought I'd go and blow a ridiculous amount of PP because I could. My attack values were pretty nifty (it's a high-powered gestalt campaign, and If I recall correctly, it wasn't quite the boss fight I exptected, and had to rely mostly on my other class for the real boss).
Regarding Heightened Spell: a Maximized Fireball is a 6th level slot. a Heightened Maximized spell is also a 6th level slot.While this might be open to interpretation, I'm pretty sure the rule is meant to increase the DC so it matches the level it uses due to heighten. The maximized fireball is level 6 because of maximize, so if you want to increase the DC, you'll have to go beyond level 6, since those +3 won't increase the DC
Well, I wasn't going by what the intention of the feat was, but simply what it says. That said, I can't tell you reliably what the intention was, just my interpretation of their intention... therefore, without adding words that are not there to the feat description, I'm stuck with a literal interpretation.
If they meant it to raise the level at a 1 for 1 over the effective level of a metamagic'd spell I would have thought that they would have errata'd it by now.
Regarding the Temporeal Acceleration nova I'm not sure that works. the discription of the power states "you cannot target a creature with any attack or power" therefore when you attempt to use Temporeal Acceleration again while Accelerated it fails (has a Target:You)
This is supported somewhat by the part that reads: "Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefit, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame)."
(not too sure about this one as I've not used it in the past, but even if it does work, WOW! you are hemorraging Powerpoints @ 11 PP per extra round.)
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Heighten spell would no longer effect save DCs, only spell reflecting and stopping effects.My concern is what about the powers that have augments for DC, they effectively begin getting the augment for free.
also will it be an issue that a burning hands has the same reflex save as a fireball and a Meteor Swarm?
Heighten Spell could easily be changed to increase the Save DC of any spell it is applied to. Electricity based powers can also easily still have the increased DC.
Burning hand will still be limited to 5d4 points of damage and it's reach would still be 15 ft. At later levels, magic missile will be a much more useful spell and allows no saving throw. Fireball is probably the most used direct damage spell from levels 3 to 8, but its damage is limited to 10d6. In many cases, scorching ray has a much better chance of dealing damage, especially if the party fights against only one enemy. In my last campaign the sorcerer used burning hands only one time, not because of the low save DC, but because fireball and scorching ray had better ranges, better damage and, in case of scorching ray, were alot easier to place without hurting the rest of the party.
Well, I wasn't going by what the intention of the feat was, but simply what it says. That said, I can't tell you reliably what the intention was, just my interpretation of their intention... therefore, without adding words that are not there to the feat description, I'm stuck with a literal interpretation.
Yours is not the only literal interpretation.
"All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level"
For me, heightened level means by whatever you heightened the spell with heighten spell.
If they meant it to raise the level at a 1 for 1 over the effective level of a metamagic'd spell I would have thought that they would have errata'd it by now.
I think there was never errata about this because the feat was never questioned. At least I never heard anyone interpret the feat like you do.
Regarding the Temporeal Acceleration nova I'm not sure that works. the discription of the power states "you cannot target a creature with any attack or power" therefore when you attempt to use Temporeal Acceleration again while Accelerated it fails (has a Target:You)
I never said that I use temporal acceleration within temporal acceleration.
In the second virtual round, I repeat what I did in the first virtual round, but with two different powers.
The 30 points for 30 rounds was a typo, it was meant 30 points for 3 rounds (couldn't get 900PP on level 15, anyway)
It's still 90PP, out of I think 250 or so.
But now that you mention it, using literal interpretations without thinking about intentions, I think cascading accelerations could work. It's no fractured personality or anything. Temporal acceleration grants you some rounds you can manifest powers, move, do stuff. In one round, as a swift action, I'll cast temporal acceleration, entering a quickened time frame. A bit more quicker than before, but there's no rules about how fast you can go.
Just imagine a Psion 10/Metamind 10 (or, better yet, Psion 15/Metamind 10), with his font of power. For one minute, he can use an unlimited number of power points. With temporal acceleration, he can make that minute stretch practically forever. Cast all his buffs, at full power, on himself. If he had anything similar to delayed blast fireball (can't remember a power like it, though I don't know them all from memory), he could also cast that as often as its delay allows, or twice as often with quicken power.
And after that, he still has 9 rounds (or actually 10, since the first temporal acceleration is only a swift action) to go cracy with powers.
It takes a lot of rules lawyering, and now GM will let you get away with this, but the rules might just support it (I'm not quite sure about the minute, and interpreting it as a minute normal time, but I can't think of an actual rules reference that says how you count that minute.
The Gazetteer already introduces Psionics into Golarion: In Jalmeray's entry, there is talk about powers that sound a lot like psionics:
"Within decades, they established great monasteries upon the island, spreading word to the followers of Irori throughout the world of a new form of physical and mental discipline from the distant East. (...) Those who thrived were accepted in one of three monasteries, there to develop physical mastery and an unusual magic of the mind."
Mental discipline from the East, unusual magic of the mind - That's our old friend psionics, if you ask me.
(SNIP)
I'd think that psions could work well for Golarion's equivalents of Asia - Tian Xia and Casmaron - or at least parts of it.
As I said above, Jalmeray is said to have imported Vudrani...
Sounds bloody great to me!
4 Body adjustment (2nd or 3rd level cure) vs cure moderate (2nd or 3rd level cure) - winner cure moderate - it gives 2d8 plus level to anyone while psions get flat d12 personal use only. Body adjustment can be augmented but there are more powerfull cure spells available to other casters at higher levels.
Obviously, a psion will get the the short end of the stick if you compare him to the strong points of each of four different full casters. Given both the class features and the direct damage powers, the psion is very clearly an equivalent of the sorcerer or wizard. So the correct comparison is body adjustment vs. nothing. Because that's what the arcane full casters have in the way of healing.
(some comparisons I don't want to repeat here since it would take up space)
In terms of overall balance non-damage dealing powers are underpowered. Nerfing the damage dealing powers without boosting the other powers would leave the class underpowered.
I'd say that most of the stuff you have mentioned isn't that important:
Feather fall/catfall: I think I did use feather fall once. From my personal experience, it isn't used that often. Not one of the spells you totally must have.
Skate/Expeditious retreat: A bit more useful, those, or so I'd say. Still, they're quickly being overshadowed by stuff like haste (where fighters and their ilk get more out of haste than whatever psionics has to offer, but more on that later)
Fly: No argument there. Note that psionic fly is also personal, making it even less useful to a party. (I generally see that psions are egoists with their power, even those who don't specialise in psychometabolism)
Body Adjustment/Cure: Yes, psions aren't that good at healing: Body adjustment is personal, if you want to heal someone else, you'll have to take his wounds and then heal them on you (or cast vigour and then take his wounds to burn temporary HP on them), And even that new complete psionics healing power is only half as good as heal. But it's all way better than whatever a wizard could do (which is nothing). I'd say that healing isn't one of psionics areas of expertise, being more akin to arkanists, so I count this as a nice bonus.
Web/Entangling ectoplasm: Web also lasts longer. The part about the attack roll is true, but then again, web grants a saving throw. In many situations, the touch attack is your better bet.
Animal Affinity/Animal Aspect spells: I never thought those powers/spells were that important, since you tend to get items for that. Especially for manifesters/casters, this will mean more spells/powers, which is good. The personal part is something that depends on your point of view (if you happen to be the psion, you won't care). I'd say that in the end, the power is more useful to the manifesters that would get them than the animal aspect spells are to the casters.
Gaseous Form/Ectoplasmic Form: Haven't used them, ever, so I can't comment.
I feel you did some selective reporting here, picking cases where magic will win. There are other cases where psionics is the clear winner:
1. Mage Armour/Inertial Armour: Easy victory for psionics. While it's personal, this won't matter to the manifester (haven't seen mage armour being cast on others than the caster that often, either), and it can be augmented for higher AC.
2. Force Screen/Shield: Again, psionics have the clear advantage: Both are personal, and again, the psionic variant can be augmented for better AC
3. Stoneskin/Inertial Barrier: I declare psionics the winner here: While stoneskin grants DR 10, it can be overcome with adamantine weapons (I'd say that every martially inclined adventurer has one of those on hand, and I've played more than one who has one as his main weapon), costs money (250gp in materials!), and shuts down after it absorbed a set amount of damage. Inertial Barrier just gives you DR 5/-, and also halves falling damage (which I call a small bonus). There's also Biofeedback, which has a shorter duration and initially only grants DR 2/-, but that one can be augmented (psychic warriors or psions/wilders who choose to get this one via a feat can go up to DR 7 - wilders more, if they surge)
4. Resist Energy/Energy Adaptation: Psionics wins. While the increases in resistence are a bit later, it protects against all energy types at once - and, for a little extra expanditure, you can manifest it as an immediate action, as a direct reaction to an effect directed at you.
5. Vigour/Virtue: Psionics have the clear advantage again. I used virtue as a wild card for all temporary hit point spells, which are all inferior to Vigour. Casters can get 1 THP, or something like 1d10+1/lv. Manifesters get 5 per power point.
6. Timestop/Temporal Acceleration: I'd give this one to manifesters. Timestop is 9th level, and as a standard action grants you 1d4+1 rounds of "extra time". Temporal Acceleration is only 6th level, so manifesters can start stealing time a lot earlier. It is a swift action, so you can cast it at the beginning of the round, buff and manoeuvre (possibly through guards/wards that require detection), and then act in the same round against enemies who are now right where you want them. While it starts with only one round, it at least is predictable (1d4+1 could really screw you if you need more than what you rolled, and if the DM is being nasty, he could roll in secret), and with the swift action, you could say it's 1+1 round. Also, you can augment for additional rounds - 2(+1) at level 15, 3 (+1) at 19 (and again, extra points to wilders and overchannelers). Only the shaken condition for one round could be considered a small disadvantage, but I think the benefits far outweigh.
7. Haste/Schism: For casters/manifesters, schism is a lot better than haste. What use does a wizard have for an extra attack, or maybe a bit more speed (stuff you can get elsewhere, too)? Schism gives you an extra action to manifest powers (albeit at lower manifester level). Basically, it's like a quicken power without the need to expand your focus (which you can use for another quickened power, or to use other psionic feats for your normal manifesting)
8. Dimension Door: Both are identical, except that psions can later augment to use it as a move action, which makes them the winner if you ask me. Plus, if you use Complete Psionics, you gain a couple of other nice augmentations.
I'm sure there are more examples where psions have an advantage with non-damaging stuff.
Uh... pointedly not getting into the debate but Do you people KNOW the origin of CoDzilla?
[sblock=Origin of C.o.D.zilla]It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill. So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. [/sblock]
If you belive they've fixed the Cleric or druid then have a little faith that what they do with psionics will be equally cool. Besides traditionally the Psy-warrior is considered one of the most balanced class in 3.5
Aside from that... Jay If you make the Psions, I'll buy the book.
Please return improved trip to its orignial form though (I'm gonna make that my sig.)
I love psionics, however, I don't necessarily think they should be put in the core books with a simple little addition. I would prefer that a seperate supplement be released so that individuals wanting this could purchase it and those that do not can just stay status quo with the core books.
However, like them or not, psionics are pretty core if you really want to think about it. I laugh when I think about the original rules of psionics and the ego whip, and stuff as being the only powers. I'm going with memory but what were there a bunch of defense abilities and offensive abilities. It was very confusing.
Please put psionics in down the line. I do love them and would miss this when I switch over to pathfinder which I certainly am!
There will be psionics in Pathfinder. We've got races using them living underground in the Darklands, across the sea in Vudra, and on other planets.Other planets? I'm intrigued
yep... the whole gates to other worlds thing...read up on the elf and gnome (can't remember which book, ugh I think it's the new one that just came out).
Gnomes are from some sort of other dimension that I don't fully understand yet. They were immortal there and have had trouble getting used to mortality. They claimed they came over due to curiousity, but it actually sounds like there was some sort of calamity that forced them to flee
It intrigues me just how much anecdotal evidence changes from one group to another.
I've played psionic characters under 4 different DMs, in at least 8 different games, ranging from 1st level to 27th level. I've never had a balance issue with them compared to my group mates. So long as I followed the rules (my first game, I accidentally over-augmented a couple times that resulted in an obvious balance issue that the DM and I corrected).
Let me repeat that - across 4 DMs, in 8 different games, from level 1 to 27, I've never had a balance issue compared to my group mates playing a psionic character.
This is not to say that there weren't times my character out-shined the others, because situations will dictate who is best suited to handle the problem, but there were times when my character was rendered ineffective and the other members of the group proved to be the saving grace. And the disparity between these situations was pretty evenly distributed.
The fact that others have had different results points simply to the myriad of possibilities in character design, player choice, and encounter specifics.
The fact that the psionics system as a whole - which since AD&D has been point-based - is being considered for a complete overhaul isn't a bad thing. AD&D psionics was horrible from a mechanics perspective. 3.0 tried to under-power the psionic classes, but left enough loopholes to cause significant balance issues. Either you played the way the system was intended, and were virtually useless to your party, or you exploited the muddled rules and were overpowered.
3.5, from my experience playing psionics since AD&D, finally got it right. I'm not saying it was perfect, there are at least a handful of powers I would see changed, as well as some class / feat / skill rules to be cleaned up / clarified, and some shaky rules streamlined or eliminated entirely, but I'd say out of the 200+ pages of rules, you have maybe 10 pages that need tweaking.
EDIT - Oh, and just for clarification, I wrote the Myth: The XPH is Overpowered thread that's been stickied at the WotC Psionics forum for the past few years.
And for those who have asked or brought it up, Andreas and I have thought about doing our own "revised" psionics ruleset, but demand for it is just too limited. We've put in a query to Paizo about Dreamscarred Press producing the Pathfinder psionics ruleset, but we haven't had a definitive yes or no answer.
And, before someone asks - you can find us at www.dreamscarredpress.com (this is not an advert, people have asked me before).
It intrigues me just how much anecdotal evidence changes from one group to another.
I've played psionic characters under 4 different DMs, in at least 8 different games, ranging from 1st level to 27th level. I've never had a balance issue with them compared to my group mates. So long as I followed the rules (my first game, I accidentally over-augmented a couple times that resulted in an obvious balance issue that the DM and I corrected).
As I said earlier in this thread, it's somewhat campaign-dependent. I've played in games where I would fight one or two tough creatures per day (so I could "go nova" as much as I wanted), and I've played in games where I would fight hordes of weaker creatures (so I needed to conserve my power points very carefully if I didn't want to revert to being the world's worst crossbowman). The psion was definitely more powerful in case (a) than in case (b) -- maybe even more powerful than a wizard would have been.
That's why I take all "class X is overpowered" (or conversely "class X is not overpowered") arguments with a big grain of salt; there are always unspoken assumptions at work.
As I said earlier in this thread, it's somewhat campaign-dependent. I've played in games where I would fight one or two tough creatures per day (so I could "go nova" as much as I wanted), and I've played in games where I would fight hordes of weaker creatures (so I needed to conserve my power points very carefully if I didn't want to revert to being the world's worst crossbowman).
And the problem herein is campaign-design vs system-design. The system was designed for roughly 4 encounters of a challenge rating equal to party level, or fewer of higher challenge, or more of a lower challenge (the DMG specifically calls this out, it's not something specific to psionics). So, by all means, if you're in a campaign that doesn't use that paradigm, balance issues can arise and adjustments likely need to be made. This is true across all classes, the "nova" aspect of psionics just makes it more visible. (And for the record, I have used the nova tactic with my psionic characters in life or death situations, but the one time I did it too soon, my psion nearly died - negative 8 hps and an important NPC death...)
Also, this isn't so much directed at you, hogarth, just using your point as a jumping-off point. :)
But, from my perspective, this aspect of psionics is something I would like to see tweaked. Tweaked, not overhauled. There's been many discussions on different psionics forums about some form of "recharge" system or an "encounter-based" point pool, or the like. The problem has always been finding the right mechanics to make it balanced.
I was drawn to psionics because of the point-based method - points are much more elegant than X spells of Y level and feel far closer to the traditional fantasy magic than Gygaxian spell slots. A psionics system without that - or some other elegant method of handling resources - would likely not be interesting to me.
I was drawn to psionics because of the point-based method - points are much more elegant than X spells of Y level and feel far closer to the traditional fantasy magic than Gygaxian spell slots. A psionics system without that - or some other elegant method of handling resources - would likely not be interesting to me.
Indeed -- I said the same thing earlier in this thread. That's why I also like the Versatile Spellcaster feat for spontaneous casters; it gives a first-order approximation to a point-based system as well.
Put me down for another Psionics supporter. Especially in the "core" Pathfinder rulebook. 3.5 Psionics is a great system that I love to death, and the amount of DMs who won't even give it a chance simply because it's been shoved into another book staggers me. Segregating it into another book just gives people an excuse to ignore it without real justification. Putting it into the main book gives it more of a veracity, more of a weight, and more people are likely to look at it and see how freakin' balanced it is. I would whole-heartedly support a full-fledged effort on Paizo's part in incorporating Psionics into the Pathfinder RPG core rule book. If you shove it into a separate book, it'll just continue the vicious cycle that psionics finds itself in.
I support Psionics above all other stuff in DnD. I own all Psionics realted material (Dreamscarred, Malhavoc, etc) and I would own anything Paizo puts out. But to think psionics is overpowered compared to the other stuff is ludicous, just take a look at the Char OP board at wizards for proof of this. I play in 2 diff gaming groups and am the only Psi player and I am overshadowed quite easily in mechanics(luckily I am a good ROLEPLAYER). And if paizo needs a new monetary backer, I am willing to buy stock and shares right here right now, but I would like to stipulate a Psionics core book sooner than later.
Putting it into the main book gives it more of a veracity, more of a weight
Speaking of giving weight: This move would also give considerable weight to said rulebook. Several hundred pages worth of weight. That's not good. The book would have to be more expensive to boot, and that would put off some people (maybe even many) who don't like psionics and don't want to pay more for their book for a huge part they don't want.
I think the separate book is still the best option - closed-minded DMs and people just have to be bribed/extorted into using the stuff. :D
I think the separate book is still the best option - closed-minded DMs and people just have to be bribed/extorted into using the stuff. :D
Hehe! Too true, too true.